Outrageous!

[always2late]

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/mot...rch-adult.html

Has anyone else seen this story? A 95 year old woman with leukemia traveling with her daughter is forced to remove her Depends undergarment to be searched. I am so outraged I can barely write coherent sentences.

[Novelafemme]

I read this last night and was FUMING!!!

[scootebaby]

I actually just finished reading it on Yahoo. My initial reaction was"wtf--r u serious". HOWEVER--after some thought though i was thinking that as much as i would hate that my child/granparent/elderly parent or even myself might have to go thru that i would prefer them/me to endure this(given it is very private and respectful and professional) than risk any possible attack. Sadly,the prospect of children or elderly being used to achieve a group or person's goal is not beyond the realm of possibility. I know very little about the attempts thus far,but i have heard of the shoe guy and the underwear guy--so it is not a stretch to assume someone would stoop to such a level as to use any group of ppl that are usually looked at as harmless.

AGAIN-- i stress it would be difficult to have happen,but as long as it is done in a very professional manner i would understand!

ETA--hell everytime Jo/we fly either her or Connor get picked for random searches--and as much of an inconvenience that is they/we deal with it bc we know its just a safety precaution!

[Kobi]

I am still waiting for the day when someone tries to smuggle a device or pieces thereof by shoving it up their butt.

Then all air passengers will be expected to undergo free rectals and pelvic exams!

Its a sad day when the elderly have to remove diapers and kids get to be molested by the government. Whats next...searching colostomy and urostomy bags? Maybe having to pull out your tampon? How about your IUD?

These searches do not make me feel safer. They make me feel like a prisoner in my own country.

[Novelafemme]

I flew home to Buffalo in late October of 2001 with my oldest daughter who was 3&1/2 and a newborn who was 3 months. I still remember security making me strip down Sophia so they could check her diaper and disassemble her car seat. It was freezing cold in the airport and they wouldn't let me cover her with a blanket. I had an antiquated double breast pump since she couldn't nurse properly due to being severely tongue-tied and security threatened to take it from me. They didn't believe it truly was what I said it was. My experience pales in comparison to what this woman and her daughter went through. Shudder!!

[Andrea]

If TSA had stopped one terrorist I might consider what they do as a safety precaution, but even TSA has admitted they would not have caught the shoe bomber or the underwear bomber using today's enhanced screenings. In both cases it was the passengers on the plane that stopped them.

Since 9/11 (the oft quoted reason we need TSA) planes have been outfitted with impenetrable doors to the pilots. That is the best security move possible.

If you don't already know the stories about the recent 'strip searches' where people have been told to remove their outer clothing to resolve issues, or the stories about silly items being 'voluntarily surrendered' (search plastic hammer), or the inconsiderate ways those in wheelchairs or other medical issues have been treated, please educate yourselves.

Our constitutional rights are being eroded by Homeland Security, TSA, the Patriot Act, etc. To treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent goes against our constitutional rights.

Andrea

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by always2late

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/mot...rch-adult.html

Has anyone else seen this story? A 95 year old woman with leukemia traveling with her daughter is forced to remove her Depends undergarment to be searched. I am so outraged I can barely write coherent sentences.

Honestly, from the article it sounds like the TSA did as much as they could to preserve this woman's privacy. They didn't do this in public. They took her to a private room.

Yes, it's terrible that this woman had to endure this. However, I would not put it past a terrorist to "use" a senior in a wheelchair to further their aims. They use children...why not the sick and elderly.

Her daughter is offended that she was treated this way....and I understand. However, this same daughter didn't bother to ensure that her mother had a clean Depends, and a spare, while traveling. Somehow, I'm almost more offended by that lack of care and concern on the part of people who supposedly love her than I am by the TSA following security protocols.

Originally Posted by Kobi

I am still waiting for the day when someone tries to smuggle a device or pieces thereof by shoving it up their butt.

Then all air passengers will be expected to undergo free rectals and pelvic exams!

Its a sad day when the elderly have to remove diapers and kids get to be molested by the government. Whats next...searching colostomy and urostomy bags? Maybe having to pull out your tampon? How about your IUD?

These searches do not make me feel safer. They make me feel like a prisoner in my own country.

Honestly Kobi? My mother has a colostomy bag. She has been pat-searched and asked what it was. It was very gently handled to ensure that it was, in fact, a colostomy bag. Period.

Tampons and IUDs wouldn't set off security alarms...so I sincerely doubt that would ever become an issue.

And I'm guessing that anyone who jammed an explosive or something metal up their ass would be subjected to the backscatter if the preliminary search didn't identify the problem.

I think that this kind of inflammatory rhetoric fans the flames....and doesn't help.

If we honestly believe that we want the TSA to search less thoroughly, and accept the corresponding decrease in air travel safety, then it's up to us to do that through our legislators - not to hassle individual TSA agents who don't write the regulations, or get people stirred up about (non-existent) cavity searches.

Originally Posted by Andrea

If TSA had stopped one terrorist I might consider what they do as a safety precaution, but even TSA has admitted they would not have caught the shoe bomber or the underwear bomber using today's enhanced screenings. In both cases it was the passengers on the plane that stopped them.

Since 9/11 (the oft quoted reason we need TSA) planes have been outfitted with impenetrable doors to the pilots. That is the best security move possible.

If you don't already know the stories about the recent 'strip searches' where people have been told to remove their outer clothing to resolve issues, or the stories about silly items being 'voluntarily surrendered' (search plastic hammer), or the inconsiderate ways those in wheelchairs or other medical issues have been treated, please educate yourselves.

Our constitutional rights are being eroded by Homeland Security, TSA, the Patriot Act, etc. To treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent goes against our constitutional rights.

Andrea

Respectfully, we do not have a constitutional right to fly.

You have a constitutional right against unreasonable search and seizure, covered by the 4th Amendment.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Generally, that's defined as a search without cause (setting off the metal detector at the airport is cause, being the random "lucky number" based on TSA regulations is cause, being in a wheelchair through security, unfortunately, is cause).....or searches beyond the body's surface.

If the TSA starts drawing blood, then they've violated the 4th Amendment.

More on the 4th Amendment here.

My first and foremost concern when flying is that I'd like to arrive at my destination safely.

I don't like being searched (although I seem to get the "lucky random number" search often...and have been patted down a lot until I learned not to fly in voluminous skirts), but I prefer it to being blown up in the sky.

I had my possessions swabbed on the way to the Bahamas last week, and my 13 year old son got pat-searched on the way back. In both cases, the TSA (in the US) and the security personnel in the Bahamas (with my son) were polite, professional and simply doing their jobs.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by always2late

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/mot...rch-adult.html

Has anyone else seen this story? A 95 year old woman with leukemia traveling with her daughter is forced to remove her Depends undergarment to be searched. I am so outraged I can barely write coherent sentences.

This is one of those times I am ashamed to be an American.

[Novelafemme]

"If we honestly believe that we want the TSA to search less thoroughly, and accept the corresponding decrease in air travel safety, then it's up to us to do that through our legislators - not to hassle individual TSA agents who don't write the regulations, or get people stirred up about (non-existent) cavity searches."

Given media coverage surrounding other events involving the TSA recently, I believe the public (myself included) could be feeling a bit abused and manhandled - therefor heightening emotions involving personal privacy and space issues. While I completely understand the need for safety protocol and procedures in public transportation facilities, something about both the narrative and subsequent handling of this situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Again, this story comes on the heels of another situation involving an African American male who was removed from a plane due to his style of clothing, while another passenger (a white male) was allowed to travel wearing little more than a pair of black heels and a speedo. Most will say these two incidents vs the OP's story are like comparing apples and oranges, but the fact is that people are feeling sensitive and protective...especially when it comes to our elderly and children who are relatively helpless in these situations.

Personally, I would have been absolutely mortified had that been my mother. And speaking AS a mother - I have absolutely forgotten to pack extra diapers when traveling. I'm human after all!

[Toughy]

The real problem is none of this actually makes us more secure. It only makes us look stupid. What has happened to rational thinking? Who needs Constitutional rights? Every person who supports this kind of stupidity certainly does not find value iin the Constitution.

The only way to do airport security is to do it the way Israel does. Each and every person who is in the airport is talked to by a fully and completely trained, well paid security person. When the really dangerous and useless full body scanners were put in airports, I watched an interview on CNN with a former head of Israil Airport Security. He actually laughed at what the US calls airport security. Funny that Israel is the most hated country in the world and nobody has hijacked a plane coming out of an Israili airport in what 40-50 years?

[Dominique]

I don't like it either. Where do you draw the line? I left my last job, A VERY GOOD JOB, due to EXTREME STRESS. I was employed by the 8th largest airline in the world, as a dangerous goods inspector. I did not work for the TSA. While I can not go into great detail about that job (FAA
security) I will tell you, in no uncertain terms, you would be shocked at the crap people try to pull.

This is a link I provided you with about a year and a half ago, one of my very first posts' here. Read on, and please open your mind to this subject.

http://bit.ly/czAUMW

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

"If we honestly believe that we want the TSA to search less thoroughly, and accept the corresponding decrease in air travel safety, then it's up to us to do that through our legislators - not to hassle individual TSA agents who don't write the regulations, or get people stirred up about (non-existent) cavity searches."

Given media coverage surrounding other events involving the TSA recently, I believe the public (myself included) could be feeling a bit abused and manhandled - therefor heightening emotions involving personal privacy and space issues. While I completely understand the need for safety protocol and procedures in public transportation facilities, something about both the narrative and subsequent handling of this situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Again, this story comes on the heels of another situation involving an African American male who was removed from a plane due to his style of clothing, while another passenger (a white male) was allowed to travel wearing little more than a pair of black heels and a speedo. Most will say these two incidents vs the OP's story are like comparing apples and oranges, but the fact is that people are feeling sensitive and protective...especially when it comes to our elderly and children who are relatively helpless in these situations.

Personally, I would have been absolutely mortified had that been my mother. And speaking AS a mother - I have absolutely forgotten to pack extra diapers when traveling. I'm human after all!

Novelafemme...I totally understand what you're saying, and I do get that people are feeling sensitive and protective. I wasn't thrilled that I had to explain a pat search to my 13 year old and watch as he was searched.

At the same time, I infinitely prefer that we both arrive where we're going safely.

Originally Posted by Toughy

The real problem is none of this actually makes us more secure. It only makes us look stupid. What has happened to rational thinking? Who needs Constitutional rights? Every person who supports this kind of stupidity certainly does not find value iin the Constitution.

The only way to do airport security is to do it the way Israel does. Each and every person who is in the airport is talked to by a fully and completely trained, well paid security person. When the really dangerous and useless full body scanners were put in airports, I watched an interview on CNN with a former head of Israil Airport Security. He actually laughed at what the US calls airport security. Funny that Israel is the most hated country in the world and nobody has hijacked a plane coming out of an Israili airport in what 40-50 years?

Toughy....I get that Israel has a better security system in place than the US does...and that our system is far from perfect.

My issue with your post is the part I've put in red. This isn't the first time I've seen you make such blanket statements about what other people believe.

It's crap Toughy...and it comes off as bullying. What you're saying there is "if you don't believe what I believe, then you're stupid and irrational"...and I'm calling it out.

For the record...I'm a firm believer in the Constitution. I debated for years about going to law school, specifically to study Constitutional law, because I love it. I love the freedoms that our Constitution guarantees us, and it pisses me off to no end that Bush played on our fears to erode our privacy and our freedoms.

I also prefer that my son and I not get blown up while flying.

Maybe that makes me imperfectly committed to the Constitution. Or maybe that just makes me a mother who loves her child.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

I don't like it either. Where do you draw the line? I left my last job, A VERY GOOD JOB, due to EXTREME STRESS. I was employed by the 8th largest airline in the world, as a dangerous goods inspector. I did not work for the TSA. While I can not go into great detail about that job (FAA
security) I will tell you, in no uncertain terms, you would be shocked at the crap people try to pull.

This is a link I provided you with about a year and a half ago, one of my very first posts' here. Read on, and please open your mind to this subject.

http://bit.ly/czAUMW

Scary stuff Yellow band...thank you for posting it.

It also explains why my "voluminous skirts" used to get me a pat search almost every time I flew.

[Inked_Trinity]

I think Ben Franklin said it best...“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

[Toughy]

oh please with the bullying stuff.......Expressing an opinion is not bullying.

I am tired of folks willingly giving up Constitutional rights in the name of fighting terror. I find it to be irrational and our 'airport passenger security' measures are laughable, stupid and dangerous. One of these days someone is going to get full body scanned and pat searched and then get on the plane and blow it up or hijack it. The scanners don't pick up powder and you can hide all kinds of things in body cavities that will get past the scanners and pat searches. What's next? Take out your bloody tampon for closer inspection?

As you say Israel has a better system. So why don't we use a better system?

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Inked_Trinity

I think Ben Franklin said it best...“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

I agree (which may surprise you)...and that's a quote I actually love.

I totally agree when it comes to Homeland Security being able to check what books we check out of the library.....but less when it involves a bomb at 30,000 feet.

I'm not disputing that some TSA agents have gone too far, been disrespectful and more....I simply don't think it's unreasonable to try to ensure that public transportation (particularly in the air) is as safe as possible.

And, for those who would like to read more about the Israeli airport security discussion and why it may or may not scale (11.5 million annual passengers in Israel and 633 million in the US)....there's an interesting blog with both sides of the argument here.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Inked_Trinity

I think Ben Franklin said it best...“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

The above needs to be repeated often. Was Ben bullying people????

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The real problem is none of this actually makes us more secure. It only makes us look stupid. What has happened to rational thinking? Who needs Constitutional rights? Every person who supports this kind of stupidity certainly does not find value iin the Constitution.

The only way to do airport security is to do it the way Israel does. Each and every person who is in the airport is talked to by a fully and completely trained, well paid security person. When the really dangerous and useless full body scanners were put in airports, I watched an interview on CNN with a former head of Israil Airport Security. He actually laughed at what the US calls airport security. Funny that Israel is the most hated country in the world and nobody has hijacked a plane coming out of an Israili airport in what 40-50 years?

Originally Posted by Toughy

oh please with the bullying stuff.......Expressing an opinion is not bullying.
I am tired of folks willingly giving up Constitutional rights in the name of fighting terror. I find it to be irrational and our 'airport passenger security' measures are laughable, stupid and dangerous. One of these days someone is going to get full body scanned and pat searched and then get on the plane and blow it up or hijack it. The scanners don't pick up powder and you can hide all kinds of things in body cavities that will get past the scanners and pat searches. What's next? Take out your bloody tampon for closer inspection?

As you say Israel has a better system. So why don't we use a better system?

Correct. Expressing an opinon is not bullying. Saying that "Every person who supports this kind of stupidity certainly does not find value in the Constitution" is no different than me saying "Every person who lives a gay lifestyle certainly has no morals."

It's crap Toughy.

Express your opinions, but please stop with the "every one who doesn't agree with me is X"....that's the dynamic that silences people.

And...for the record...I question that Israel's system is scalable here. They have 11.5 million passengers a year...we have 633 million. Israel's total air travel is comparable to the air traffic at the Sacramento regional airport according to an expert on airport security cited in the link in my post above.

Extending Israel's measures to only major airports in the US wouldn't work...because terrorists would simply divert to regional airports. Israel has one major airport and a small handfull of smaller airports. We have over 100.

Further, we have issues hiring quality police, fire and other personnel all over (again, cited in the link above)....TSA agents don't come up the standard we want now....finding the level of personnel and paying them sufficiently to come to Israel's standard would probably be problematic at best, not to mention raising the cost of air travel even higher than it is now.

Getting through security in Orlando can take hours now....what would it be if we took time to personally interview every passenger? I hate to think.

I'm not saying that we can't take and use some of their ideas, but I doubt we can replicate their system exactly at the scale we would need to in order to be effective.

And, see? I expressed all of that without saying "anyone who doesn't understand the concepts of taking a business structure to scale and return on investment is clearly an idiot."

[Andrew, Jr.]

How very sad indeed. I think the same when they do pretty much the same with infants and toddlers.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Inked_Trinity

I think Ben Franklin said it best...“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Originally Posted by Toughy

The above needs to be repeated often. Was Ben bullying people????

No...I don't think that Ben was bullying people. I think we was expressing a principle.

I also think that Ben was talking about bigger things when he talked about "giving up freedom."

We have the freedom to travel. We even have the freedom to fly around the country when and where we see fit. We simply have to submit to some basic security measures (as imperfect as they are) to do so.

We don't have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater either...that's for safety reasons. Kind of like flying.

And....I find it odd that you advocate Israel's far more restrictive security measures on one hand while clutching Ben's quote in the other.