Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Chazz]

The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak GENDERese - a language borne of gender theory.

Woman identified butches tend to speak in SEXUAL ORIENTATION-ese - a language based in sex/biology, lesbian/gay rights, and, in some cases, Feminism. That's okay, too.

What is NOT okay is the high echelon of "Butch Voices" (transgenderists) presuming to speak for BUTCHES. Not all butches - butches, period.

Butch is a term that speaks to sexual orientation, sex/ biology (femaleness) - not transgenderism. It's a full time, life long identity - not a way station on the road to maledom.

"BUTCH" has a long, hard fought, and precious HERitage that has nothing to do with transgenderism, except to the extent that the lesbian community has ceded use of the term to those who see it as a transitional, oft times, a convenient identifier on the way to maleness.

Butch is not that. It's a life-long identity that has to do with sexual orientation.

"For the life of me" seems to be the phrase in fashion, so I'll just say: For the life of me, how did a term based in sexual orientation get appropriated by folks who don't see themselves as lesbian?

Well, it's part and parcel to the imposed tagging around "cis" this and "cis" that. Now, the same folks who brought us "cis" are presuming to take ownership of (lesbian) butch identity and define that, too.

It's okay to call to call a foul, a foul. It's okay defend what rightfully belongs to you. That's not oppressive or being exclusionary. It's being self-respecting.

Vive Butch Nation.

[christie]

Originally Posted by tapu

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool.

Originally Posted by tapu

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!

Originally Posted by Yellow band

Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

Originally Posted by JustJo

Only my ducky side is masculine of center. Well, that and my pushy, project manager, task driven work self too I suppose.

My manicure loving side is female of center. As are my girly gestures and love of strappy sandals.

My mommy side is my emotional center.

The kitchen is the house center (for me).

My politics are left of center.

And I'm right handed.

However...I've never lived in Kansas, despite it being the geographical center.

Perhaps I'm just confused (or maybe I'm just me).

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

[tapu]

Originally Posted by christie0918

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

My posts are fairly short. You can just skip them.

[Dominique]

when I finally mustered up enough courage to speak, I became even more invisable.....and I even said that didn't I?

[BullDog]

Butch is just not good enough for an organization called Butch Voices.

Even today Joe is on Facebook talking about butch being a term that has been used against people or something that some never identified with and basically that it's limiting.

Well for those who don't identify with the word butch, wouldn't they either be going to a Butch Conference as an ally or not even care about such a thing?

For me, yes some have attempted to use butch in a derisive manner against me, as well as dyke. If any word has been hurled at me in a derisive manner it has been dyke. Guess what I am a proud butch dyke. Those words both separately and in combination are powerful for me. I respect those who don't use the terms for themselves, but I personally do not need to be protected or have some supposed new language invented to protect me (aka Masculine of Center) with words that have no personal meaning for me.

I live my life as a butch every day. I would think an organization called Butch Voices would be relevant to me in addition to other types of butches.

If they want to have an organization that serves a broader or different gender spectrum than butch, why don't they change their name? You know why I don't think they will? It goes back to a few things that Jack and June said. Butch is more recognizable, Butch Voices is their "brand." So they are using the term Butch to build a wider audience because it's more recognizable but their organization is not really centered around Butch. It really does tick me off.

Oh and to suggest the reason people have left is because the work is too hard or there are personality conflicts is complete bullshit. As Jack said it's dismissive and erasing. Jack, Toughy, myself and a few others left for very similar reasons in 2008-09 as Jeanne Cordova, Sasha Goldberg and others did in 2011. We aren't being listened to. They are building their brand at our expense.

You know I do think they are all about diversity and inclusion. However in their branding process they are walking over the backs and erasing a large segment of butches who live their lives every day as butches- every day lives where being visibly lesbian/queer masculine females and women have real life consequences. We aren't somewhere out in gender theory land looking for slogans and brands to protect ourselves or make ourselves into something that we are not. We are living our lives- butch is real life, not gender theory.

[tapu]

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

[Dominique]

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

[citybutch]

Originally Posted by citybutch

June as the person who works on the P&L I will put together some notes together for you. I am currently on vacation and was out on the water yesterday so didn't have service to respond more promptly.

As an FYI, and generally speaking, and as someone who sits on numerous Boards such as the local LGBT Center, a theatre, and on the finance committee on a local LGBT Foundation, professional financials do not go into detail as to who is cut what check when. In fact, it is not even the Board who sees the detailed financials in many organizations. It is the finance committee who reviews the detailed financials and it is the audit committee who reviews the detailed audit. The committees then recommend to the Board approval (or not) after recommended changes are made. The Board (and the community or constituency who is served ) is/are free to ask questions about the details which the Treasurer or other members of the finance committee will answer. To work on a Board of Directors for an organization means there is a lot of oversight over programs, staff (if there is one), financials, building maintenance, etc.

Also, the Board of BV is actively seeking 501 (c) 3 status through a sponsor. It is complicated for this organization because we engage in activity in multiple States. If we were to file for 501 (c) 3 status on our own it would be a complicated and an expensive endeavor... one in which our minimal resources would not cover.

I will be back when I am able to make note of your questions.

Thanks for your questioning mind June!

June, here is a start to your questions.

To start, no one makes any income from BUTCH Voices. Unlike many Boards, the Trustees of BUTCH Voices is a working Board. There is no paid staff. There is a lot of work that goes into all of the events, whether they are regional or national. Outreach to many organizations, Board education, etc are all a part of the work of any typical organization. There is usually a cost to this. In addition, Board Retreats are a very standard practice in order to enhance and sustain a healthy organization. It is nearly impossible to do the core work of a Board when you are spread out geographically. BUTCH Voices Board members reside in Texas, California (Northern and Southern), and Oregon. Traditionally, Boards gather once a month in order to address various issues including but not limited to fundraising efforts, strategic planning, programs, Board structure, organization structure, financials, etc. The BUTCH Voices Board meets face to face once a year to address these issues. Also, regular teleconferences are maintained to stay in touch and keep on course for the organization. There is a cost to getting together to meet and discuss the direction of the organization. We are all volunteers and dedicate many hours per month to these efforts. We do our best to reduce costs as we move through some of the major decisions and look to new and exciting directions for the organization.

Telephone: whether it is between Board Retreats or during times of Board education, there are times we have had to use our personal phones in order to do Board work. This is a reimbursed expense.

Hotel: Board members have attended educational seminars in an effort to gain as much knowledge in appropriate and legal Board leadership skills. Board Retreat costs are kept at a minimum but needs to be reimbursed as well.

Travel: travel expenses for Board retreats are reimbursed as we travel to meet once a year face to face.

Car: In order to do much of our work on the retreats such as site visits, a vehicle was required.

Food: There is a food allowance during Board retreats. Anyone going above that allowance pays out of pocket.

External conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them: If you have specific questions about these line items please let me know what they are and I will do my best to explain them.

Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed: 2011 is the first year that grant scholarships have been requested so you will see a line item for this at year end.

It should also be noted that I am a financial planner and a big believer in liquidity. I feel strongly that maintaining a certain portion of our resources to advance the efforts of our organization is important. There are issues for butches, studs, aggressives, etc around healthcare, social justice, and advocacy that the organization has targeted as initiatives. All of these are stressed on our website... Please take a look for more information: www.butchvoices.com

[dixie]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

Perhaps I'm confused.

So....when someone I will (suspect) call an "ally" starts a thread to give us a voice (i.e. another place to hang out and make ourselves known), it's a conflict of interest? To me that sounds as though you are implying that our space should be ours and ours alone, without allowing supporters/allies/significant others/etc who do not identify as lesbian to have any part. Personally, if it is a lesbian space I think lesbian should be the focus but those supportive of lesbians should be allowed as well. (Which also happens to be my opinion of BV, although substitute "butch" for "lesbian" in my last sentence.)

Then again, perhaps it was your yawning (which was just as immature in my opinion as other comments that have been called out) that threw me off a little.

[Semantics]

It seems like there's a lot of policing of threads by members recently based on how people identify and who can post where.

As in "I only want femmes to reply to my thread" and "why is a non-lesbian starting a thread about lesbians?"

And why so many accusations of thread derailments? Some of the best discussions happen because people expand on topics.

Both things seem very divisive and silencing. Can we loosen up a little?

[dixie]

Originally Posted by Semantics

It seems like there's a lot of policing of threads by members recently based on how people identify and who can post where.

As in "I only want femmes to reply to my thread" and "why is a non-lesbian starting a thread about lesbians?"

And why so many accusations of thread derailments? Some of the best discussions happen because people expand on topics.

Both things seem very divisive and silencing. Can we loosen up a little?

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by dixielady

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

[Dominique]

I guess you are speaking to me Dixie, since you quoted me. I was giving the cliff notes of the thread, as I read it from the beginning and that was how the story unfolded. I didn't post until a few hours ago, and my post, as I said.....went right by like a helium filled balloon......

But since I am obviously not a poster of POWER......I have seen such posters remind butches, femmes whom ever, that the thread they are in is a butch, femme whom ever thread, please respect it....

I have never voiced such an opinion.

So lynch me now, and get it over with.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by tapu

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

As the OP, I had no attachment to what was discussed in this thread, when I created it. New members complained they were having difficulty seeing the lesbians in our community. The conversation has meandered here and there, and more than likely will continue to do so. At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.

Originally Posted by Yellow band

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

Yellow Band, I created this thread, I'm not interested in posting in it at all, although I do enjoy reading it from time to time. If folks would quit asking questions of the OP—me, I wouldn't have to. I would have explained this to you via private message, but apparently you do not receive private messages.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Liam

At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.

Okay, so while Butch Voices is the topic, no off-hand remarks about leaping lesbians should be made. No unrelated banter exchanged.

I'm not necessarily asking you, Liam. I'm checking in on what I'm hearing.

[Liam]

For the record, once upon a time, I identified as a lesbian—I was one proud dyke, and one proud butch.

[Dominique]

And Liam, your point is? Once I was a straight girl.....read what I wrote....I don't care, I was giving the cliff notes to the thread......

[OS Butch]

Holy Cow! Pretty much all I can say.

[dixie]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

I didn't post until a few hours ago, and my post, as I said.....went right by like a helium filled balloon......

Posts come and go. People get on a topic and see certain posts that they want to reply to. Other posts sometimes get "lost" in the midst. It happens to everyone. It has happened to me more times than I can count. That's why you just keep posting, especially if you want to be heard. Eventually, those posts won't go unnoticed.

Originally Posted by Yellow band

So lynch me now, and get it over with.

I seriously doubt that extent of dramatic action is necessary on this thread or any other. No one is out to lynch anyone, nor was I out to lynch you. It's conversation/discussion/banter. What I assume you wanted from your posts, hence your posting in the first place.

[dixie]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

OK folks,

The jabs and loaded language needs to stop right now.
This is a discussion, not a boxing match.

Yellow band- Every single poster on this website is a poster with power.
We all have the ability to post our thoughts, as long as its done respectfully so please refrain from setting up scenarios where certain posters have a more valid voice than others.

Admin

Sorry Jackhammer. I was posting as you were, apparently. I was just seeking some clarification but will keep to topic. Thank you.