Masculine of Center -- the term

[Martina]

This controversy came up around the Butch Voices conference in 2010 (I think). I wasn't there and did not participate. I just read about it afterwards. I read some of the talk about it here, but did not find the thread.

Anyway, a defense of the term was recently quoted in the Race and Racism thread. I responded for a couple of reasons, but one was that there was no mention of the butch women who have taken issue with the term.

I will point out that I do not know the people from Butch Voices or the people who have criticized the term.

I do not like the term -- MoC. I hope it is not gaining currency. I do think there are some advantages to it. One that was mentioned in the article posted in the Race thread is that it includes men, cis-men, and therefore is a way of building alliances with them.

Here is an article from one of the critics of the term -- part of the BV controversy -- http://butchenough.wordpress.com/201...pe-not-a-line/

A quote from that

Beyond that, I think “masculine of center” as an umbrella is loaded and problematic. I realize it’s gaining popularity as a term used by individuals to describe themselves, and while I would love for people to really examine the term critically if they haven’t already, people are going to use whatever feels comfortable to them. But I am worried about the institutionalization of the term, its canonization if you will, as the broader description of these various gender identities.

While it may not be the intention of anyone who uses the term, “masculine of center” reduces gender expression down to a simple gradation, with pure femininity on one end and pure masculinity on the other. It is a somewhat antiquated way to think of gender. It basically replicates the current binary gender system but with the concession that your biological sex does not determine which side of the gender line you are allowed to occupy.

And the criticism that the blog article quoted in the Race thread was responding to --

Q: What do you think about the term “masculine of center”?

Halberstam: I think it presumes a center, I’m not sure about that. It presumes a scale that we all know and recognize. I don’t always know that I know what another queer person’s masculinity means anymore. I used to think I knew, but I realized I didn’t. For a lot of young masculine female bodied people who decide to transition, they’re doing so not because they’re so invested in masculinity but because they’re invested in forms of maleness that are then going to be in relation to other forms of maleness. They want to be gay men! In that scenario, masculinity isn’t the most important vector for them, it’s male embodiment or perceived male embodiment. My orientation is very much to feminine women, so butch still seems to have some sort of signifying power, given my set of desires and orientations. But masculine of center presumes that there’s an ideal, and that ideal presumes all kinds of things about race and class, and that we all know an ideal form when we see it. I can’t get into that kind of normative classification system that has a center and has margins. It’s a kind of colonial way of thinking about things, that there is a center and there are margins, and everyone’s aspiring to be center.

The very smart defense of it on terms relating to race -- is here -- http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...040#post730040

My response is the next post. I am sure there are a number of other articles out and about.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it? Do you like it? Would you adopt it? Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?

If you are femme or otherwise don't ID as someone who might be included in MoC, what are your thoughts?

I do not want this thread to privilege the response of any person, regardless of gender or other ID. That might seem wrong too those whose ID is MoC or butch, trans or ? but that's the way I'd prefer this thread to go.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Martina

This controversy came up around the Butch Voices conference in 2010 (I think). I wasn't there and did not participate. I just read about it afterwards. I read some of the talk about it here, but did not find the thread.

Anyway, a defense of the term was recently quoted in the Race and Racism thread. I responded for a couple of reasons, but one was that there was no mention of the butch women who have taken issue with the term.

I will point out that I do not know the people from Butch Voices or the people who have criticized the term.

I do not like the term -- MoC. I hope it is not gaining currency. I do think there are some advantages to it. One that was mentioned in the article posted in the Race thread is that it includes men, cis-men, and therefore is a way of building alliances with them.

Here is an article from one of the critics of the term -- part of the BV controversy -- http://butchenough.wordpress.com/201...pe-not-a-line/

A quote from that


And the criticism that the blog article quoted in the Race thread was responding to --



The very smart defense of it on terms relating to race -- is here -- http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...040#post730040

My response is the next post. I am sure there are a number of other articles out and about.

Anyway, those who know, is MoC becoming a more used term? Who is adopting it? Do you like it? Would you adopt it? Is the term just more inclusive -- like queer -- or meant/experienced as a rejection or replacement of other terms? If the latter, why?

If you are femme or otherwise don't ID as someone who might be included in MoC, what are your thoughts?

I do not want this thread to privilege the response of any person, regardless of gender or other ID. That might seem wrong too those whose ID is MoC or butch, trans or ? but that's the way I'd prefer this thread to go.

I'm still waiting for for a concrete definition of what constitutes "center". Until I can get a reliable definition I can not use it. I know what left of center and right of center is, but in gender it really doesn't make much since to me.

[DapperButch]

I still have no real clue what this word means. I found this defintion on the Brown Boi Project website: http://www.brownboiproject.org/mission_core_values.html

"Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008) "


Ok, so why isn't just the word masculine used? Meaning, the definition of the term is people that "tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum". So, why would people not just use the word masculine to describe themselves if that is the definition of the term "masculine of center"?

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

Got it! Makes sense...the whole naming principle...it being the guiding part of the definition of an identity may bother some...and you are suggesting more likely butch women than other masculine identities (I too saw the evidence that it bothered this identity more than others). Thanks!

[Boots13]

This came up in a conversation yesterday...interesting that I've spent so much time in my life just "being" and now I'm a being using dangerous and marginalized terms in an effort to describe a jumping off point about being me.

I have always said "I am me" . I know internally where and who I am, but in order for the world to know, and in order for me to be able to parlay verbally my 'orientations' and proclivities I utilize words that describe a jumping off point, a baseline, a point of easy though perhaps inhospitable (?) recognition so that I can then direct this trajectory to define ME, to start a trajectory AWAY FROM CENTER that describes who I am. Though I have not used the term masculine of center (what is center?) I do start conversations from a recognizable waypoint (center?) .

And there is my conundrum, who recognizes center? Is it mainstream? That smacks of patriarchal archetype. Is it working class that recognizes "center"? I struggle for words to start an association. I build a box, only to break out of it. Thats what we do, isnt it? DisAssociate ourselves from center as we vector ourselves through recognized (though not necessarily accepted) definitions and identifications.

Is that restrictive? Or a jumping off point to further build upon what we already know...masculine of center. The more I read and say the words masculine of center, the more offensive it feels...I think its the "center" part.
So whats the alternative in this Brave New World? If not masculine of center what words do we use in an effort to verbally project our departure from an exclusionary, elitist, patriarchal "normal" called center ?

GREAT thread, thank you for starting it.

[macele]

well, my center is not masculine. i am butch, indeed. but not the center of my being. that is way more personal, much deeper than butch or moc. that's how i see it. sure, i own the energy, ... but it's not my center.

i really don't know anything about the word, ... why it was "invented". somebody felt the need to have it, ... so there you go!

[chai~]

bookmarking to read later