Masculine of Center -- the term

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Aishah, I am glad to see you posting a bit more again. What I am going to say may offend you, I hope not. Many people here from this site were at the first BV conference here in the SF Bay Area. Some of the people that are founders of BV and/or Board Members are members from this site and/or the old DASH site. Brown Bois is not BV but Brown Bois and BV do have members/participants active in both groups. Here on this site when BV first started to use this term MOC there was much discussion on this site. Maybe someone who has the technical savy will provide the link for you.

I am an older POC Butch and I am not fond of the MOC for my own identity. I came out and of age in the early 70s primarily in a B-F POC community in Los Angeles. There were many of us that used the term Butch for our self identity. It was not a popular or venerated label/identity back then with white lesbians. Mind you, this is my experience. We do have female identified butches here that have another experience.

I have had brief communication with Cole about MOC and she knows how I feel about the term MOC. Cole is younger then me and said this is how it was for her growing up in Oakland. POC not being comfortable with the term Butch.

What I don't understand is I see many people claiming the right to ID as they desire but yet when they see someone that may not see the identity of Butch as they do for themselves, all of a sudden it is not okay to "self identity." ( I am not inferring this is your bias.)

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

This might explain it better. It is from the BBP website.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=FpZ-t...%3DFpZ-tv5TsjM

A lot of crafty stuff popped up.

[nowandthen]

[QUOTE=julieisafemme;732361]I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins [/QUOTE
THe origins of the word come from the medical field and is about naming difference that needs correction, yes we have reclaimed it, but is roots lie in Mental Illness as the place to define, mark and correct that which the center has named "normal"

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

A lot of crafty stuff popped up.

Aaack! I am on an iPad and I can't figure out how to paste! So sorry! I will fire up the pc!

[Dude]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

[julieisafemme]

[quote=nowandthen;732403]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins [/QUOTE
THe origins of the word come from the medical field and is about naming difference that needs correction, yes we have reclaimed it, but is roots lie in Mental Illness as the place to define, mark and correct that which the center has named "normal"

The word masculinity or center? I am not understanding here.

[Martina]

One context at BV was the fact that organizationally, many butch women felt that they were being excluded. I don't know the petty politics. But there was a shift in power among various groups, with women-ID'd folk perceiving a loss. Who knows? But that is part of the context of the original response.

In my OP, I tried to point out that I don't care really. The fact is the term, if it flies, will fly on its own, will take on its own life. I really don't know how that can be argued with. That's how language works. That's how politics work. There is little memory of history or context re things like this.

Requoting Halberstam for a separate good point

Halberstam: I think it presumes a center, I’m not sure about that. It presumes a scale that we all know and recognize. I don’t always know that I know what another queer person’s masculinity means anymore. I used to think I knew, but I realized I didn’t. For a lot of young masculine female bodied people who decide to transition, they’re doing so not because they’re so invested in masculinity but because they’re invested in forms of maleness that are then going to be in relation to other forms of maleness. They want to be gay men! In that scenario, masculinity isn’t the most important vector for them, it’s male embodiment or perceived male embodiment. My orientation is very much to feminine women, so butch still seems to have some sort of signifying power, given my set of desires and orientations. But masculine of center presumes that there’s an ideal, and that ideal presumes all kinds of things about race and class, and that we all know an ideal form when we see it. I can’t get into that kind of normative classification system that has a center and has margins. It’s a kind of colonial way of thinking about things, that there is a center and there are margins, and everyone’s aspiring to be center.

Here's a case where masculinity isn't to be foregrounded. Once they have been perceived as male, masculinity is an individual issue almost.

Whatever the context among activists, the term is carrying baggage.

There is also an arrogance among activists that everyone will know and understand their work, that people will retain their history, will be able to detect their intentions. Would that were so.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Dude

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

I am so sorry you felt that was fucked up. You stated quite clearly that this conversation had nothing to do with color and that is not my experience. I did not mean to offend you.

As far as the conference goes I am not understanding what you mean by "that s what went down there?"

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by aishah

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

Aishah, I'm sorry. My post was not clear. I was referring to "Butches" that monitor, the use of the label Butch. I have never felt pushed by people using the label MOC that it is a "must." It did sadden me to learn there are younger POC Butches, Studs, Aggressives that are unaware that there were older POC during the years immediatley following Stonewall that did ID as Butch and were proud of it. There were also many Lesbians that now ID as Butch that would not claim Butch back in the day.

I strongly believe it is up to the individual to ID themselves as they choose, and sometimes their ID is something they grow into.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

Why is that an of course?

Ok!! On a pc now!

From BBP's website

"Mission

The Brown Boi Project is a community of masculine of center womyn, men, two-spirit people, transmen, and our allies committed to transforming our privilege of masculinity, gender, and race into tools for achieving Racial and Gender Justice.

Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008)

Core Values

We work for Gender Justice by re-envisioning the power imbalance between traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. We hold institutional systems, other masculine people, and ourselves accountable for its accompanying privileges. We draw on a gender inclusive framework that shapes non-oppressive masculinity rooted in honor, community, and empowerment of feminine identified people, especially women and girls.

We value Justice: We are a broad, diverse community of activists, philanthropists, rebels, and leaders who are driven by a commitment to racial justice, gender justice, and transforming our privilege of masculinity into a tool for social change. We prioritize support that improves the lives of masculine of center womyn; queer and trans people, and people of color - work that transforms the lives of women and girls and introduces new alliances and tools for challenging racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia across our communities.

We value critical inquiry: We recognize that building community requires time, effort and sacrifice. We see questions as essential to growth, renewal, and the overturning of ideas that harm our communities. We support innovative organizations that provide places to share and grow collectively and individually, those that align social justice movements and open new dialogues at the margins.

We value tenacity: We are bold, daring, fearless, and steadfast in challenging assumptions and conventions in ways that resonate and connect with grassroots communities of color. We think critically and strategically in search of the best answers and approaches. We live at the intersections, transgressing boundaries and bringing about new dialogues.

We value innovation: We approach our work with optimism, think boldly, and see new ideas as opportunities for transformation, forward growth, and social change."

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

One context at BV was the fact that organizationally, many butch women felt that they were being excluded. I don't know the petty politics. But there was a shift in power among various groups, with women-ID'd folk perceiving a loss. Who knows? But that is part of the context of the original response.

In my OP, I tried to point out that I don't care really. The fact is the term, if it flies, will fly on its own, will take on its own life. I really don't know how that can be argued with. That's how language works. That's how politics work. There is little memory of history or context re things like this.

Requoting Halberstam for a separate good point



Here's a case where masculinity isn't to be foregrounded. Once they have been perceived as male, masculinity is an individual issue almost.

Whatever the context among activists, the term is carrying baggage.

There is also an arrogance among activists that everyone will know and understand their work, that people will retain their history, will be able to detect their intentions. Would that were so.

i disagree re: history - mostly because i am hypersensitive to the issue of racism and lack of rootedness in context and experience - but i am grateful for the background and can see where the resistance due to centering male id'ed folks comes from. i think we have had that discussion here on the planet several times also (re: male id'ed butches being privileged over female id'ed butches).

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not). the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

i do get the resistance around male id'ed butches being centered, though. that at least makes the controversy make more sense to me.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am so sorry you felt that was fucked up. You stated quite clearly that this conversation had nothing to do with color and that is not my experience. I did not mean to offend you.

As far as the conference goes I am not understanding what you mean by "that s what went down there?"

I'm so sorry , I was not more clear with my words.

I appreciate you telling me what went down at the conference.

I had no idea that race played a divisive role in what was
'supposed" to be an all inclusive and supportive event.

that is fucked up , disappointing and news to me

[nowandthen]

[quote=julieisafemme;732408]

Originally Posted by nowandthen

The word masculinity or center? I am not understanding here.

All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by aishah

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

Your whole post resonated so much with me but I wanted to thank you in particular for this excerpt (I bolded one part that is such a good clear summary of an important point that helps people "get" the b/f identity).

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Dude

I'm so sorry , I was not more clear with my words.

I appreciate you telling me what went down at the conference.

I had no idea that race played a divisive role in what was
'suppossed" to be an all inclusive and supportive event.

that is fucked up and dissapointing

Yes it was. I am not an academic and struggle to understand things sometimes. What happened at the conference for me is I could feel the racial tension and the tension between butches who identify with female or male pronouns. Sometimes it was so overwhelming I had to leave the room. It made me sick to stomach. It was not disappointing or fucked up though. I also felt love, acceptance, civility and an honest attempt by many to understand and repair the damage. I felt hopeful and I learned a LOT.

BBP ran an intergenerational panel workshop of butches/MoC. Greyson and Toughy were on the panel. The youngest participant was 16! It was absolutely transforming to me and I got to see Cole at work and saw how wonderfully she handled the stories and the really intense emotions that came up.

It may not have been for everyone. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

[julieisafemme]

[quote=nowandthen;732428]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

Thank you! I so appreciate learning the roots of words.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not).

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

Originally Posted by aishah

the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

And that stuff is sometimes super sad. Usually it gets some reaction on this site.

i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex.

I agree. And I agree with Julie that reclaiming and redefining masculinity is hugely worthwhile.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

[Martina]

One can do all that without creating an umbrella term with masculine a the defining characteristic.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ok!! On a pc now!

From BBP's website

"Mission

The Brown Boi Project is a community of masculine of center womyn, men, two-spirit people, transmen, and our allies committed to transforming our privilege of masculinity, gender, and race into tools for achieving Racial and Gender Justice.

Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008)

Core Values

We work for Gender Justice by re-envisioning the power imbalance between traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. We hold institutional systems, other masculine people, and ourselves accountable for its accompanying privileges. We draw on a gender inclusive framework that shapes non-oppressive masculinity rooted in honor, community, and empowerment of feminine identified people, especially women and girls.

We value Justice: We are a broad, diverse community of activists, philanthropists, rebels, and leaders who are driven by a commitment to racial justice, gender justice, and transforming our privilege of masculinity into a tool for social change. We prioritize support that improves the lives of masculine of center womyn; queer and trans people, and people of color - work that transforms the lives of women and girls and introduces new alliances and tools for challenging racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia across our communities.

We value critical inquiry: We recognize that building community requires time, effort and sacrifice. We see questions as essential to growth, renewal, and the overturning of ideas that harm our communities. We support innovative organizations that provide places to share and grow collectively and individually, those that align social justice movements and open new dialogues at the margins.

We value tenacity: We are bold, daring, fearless, and steadfast in challenging assumptions and conventions in ways that resonate and connect with grassroots communities of color. We think critically and strategically in search of the best answers and approaches. We live at the intersections, transgressing boundaries and bringing about new dialogues.

We value innovation: We approach our work with optimism, think boldly, and see new ideas as opportunities for transformation, forward growth, and social change."

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

One can do all that without creating an umbrella term with masculine a the defining characteristic.

Sure! You can. I don't think BBP was creating an umbrella term for the masses. I don't really know. It is a term that was useful for the work that they are doing. I don't speak for BBP or Cole. I am just trying to communicate what I have seen, heard and learned. Obviously I am not great at parsing things in an academic way. When people dismiss the term it makes me feel sad. It is an emotional response. You don't have to agree or even understand it.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

Martina, your post gives me something more to think about. I do identitfy as masculine it is my ID. For me, I do not see masculinity as male or female.

I did not think I was giving masculinity a place of regard in the conventional sense. Perhaps I have been. I need to think about it. I grew up surrounded by very strong women that could be defined as masculine and their strength was not a negative.

I have learned quite a a bit here in the forumns through the years. Thanks to you and others.