The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[BullDog]

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

Here is me telling you directly as you've requested.

Do you have any idea how dismissive this is?

The conversation has gone in many different directions. There was some weird Facebook thing that happened at the start, that I believe was some public thing about a private matter, that was between two people and has been done for a page a half.

Since then, it's been, imo, a good discussion about many different points. Most everyone has posted about their own experiences. Most everyone has posted about the questions Met asked. Most everyone has contributed something on some level.

Some issues may be small, some may be big, some may be seen as either/or by those reading but they were obviously big enough in the mind of the poster to write them on the Internet for all to see. Some sparked discussion. Some didn't. Either way, people are talking openly about an issue that I've seen you reference numerous times here.

Then you feel the need to come in and tell us we're doing it wrong. Really, truly, honestly, from my gayla place, why?

[apretty]

who are you fighting with?

Originally Posted by adorable

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here...

[Stoney]

Okay here are my questions....

why in the hell does this have to be a war? why is is that people can have any " right or wrong" way to define or identify themselves??? how could I just say" Oh Im a dyke and some one else says well , excuse me you might say you are a dyke but you are really a queer in "my" opinion... you Identify as a man... but "you are wrong because I think you are more like a female. You say you are a butch but You cant be because you shave your arm pits..yada yada.

.I mean who GIVES A FUCK ?

and like wise... How am I gonna get pissed off because someone thinks Im a dyke but not a queer? or thinks Im not as butch as they think I should be etc..
AGAIN..who gives a fuck?

I mean I am lesbian and butch and yeah sometimes people think I am a man, I get called sir more often than not. what am I gonna do punch people in the face cause they made and honest mistake?.....hell I wouldnt punch them in the face for saying it for any reason... I am me. I dress like me, I act like me. Everyone sees me through their own eyes , not mine.They dont know really where I have been, what my life means to me and for the most part most people dont care bout that either.
If a comment is made it is for their own entertainment if it is derogatory , out of ignorance if ... well it is just plain ignorant ...but most are simply mistakes.

I cut my hair short , I buy my clothes from the mens section.. people are gonna assume thinks about me .quick glance, yes, I fit a stereotype one I am well aware of... duh.....I dressed myself today. It is human nature to assume.

Those things used to bother me, what people thought, how I would fit in ,measure up...
.then I really thought..measure up to what? another's opinion of the person i am and how I should be this way or that to fit the impression they have of me??

the person you are is you,the life you are creating belongs to you,the one most important thing that can never be stolen, altered, felt or experienced by any other human being but ourselves is what we believe about and embrace within ourselves and claim to be our truth.

Stand firm in who you are , but be understanding to those who haven't walked in your shoes What they think of you , what they project has reason, whether it is insulting, stereotyping, or just plain asinine; there is a lesson for you, compassion and understanding can go a long long way, remember.. they are trying to create themselves too

As for in places like this.

I have had even the sweetest words misinterpreted when i have posted. I have been attacked and insulted and my feelings got hurt then I got jumped on over having feelings and then an attack on my sexuality

and I have to admit and Im embarrassed to say It fucked with me. I mean I truly let the words of people online fuck with my life.
I thought about the stuff they said and I picked myself apart over it. rehashed the words and intentions in my head ( I mean not obsessively or anything but now and then when I missed going to the site) I didnt return for over a year. Then had a lower profile. didnt say much, just read posts until I seen so much of the same happening to other people like me who innocently insulted someone and then got emotionally beat down and run off for it. And I stopped candy coating what I had to say. I mean I feel I am a pretty emotionally stable happy person who visits this site and what about some of the folks that come in here and make mistakes , words said , oversensitive responses and projection can be damaging and hurtful, and face it some people who come to sites like this it is their only sense of family, sometimes it is all they have , maybe they have mental problems, are depressed, their dog just got run over , who knows... the point is...I know how it affected me and I rather like myself, what about those that do not? so I started saying what I want.

I had already decided that I wouldnt let things said on line bother me anymore and I honestly have plenty of life out here to life without entertaining insults and arguements who either have no right to form an opinion on " my Feelings" ( which happens alot it seems in posts)and then insult me or I accidently offend, leave out, misunderstand,only include"whatever", point to, reference to what the fuck ever I it is I do wrong and it is back on again......

It is like an online soap turning into Jerry springer ... my two least favorite shows next to Rush Lumbaugh. No thanks

This is supposed to be a place for friends, we are all here because we have some of the same issues, we are here to support and help each other. we are here to learn about ourselves and the people we love and or support. We have so much in common but it seems even in this community all people can do is point out and debate each others differences. why separate? why judge, why stereotype, isnt that what we are trying to escape?.
Separation provokes fear, and judgment and both of those lead to hate.

Whether you are a femme who has kids but is now with a butch , if you were born male but live as a female, if you are in love with a man who was born a woman, if you are a feminist tree huggin peace and love lesbian or the two 75yr old gym teachers who have shared a home for over 40 yrs... some one hates you.
people hate us in this world okay.. I mean it is a fact.

People die because they are some sort of " Queer" every single day...

that is fucked up enough isnt it?


why do we have to divide, separate, ride around on our own high horses spouting off what it means to be queer when we really only have the knowlege of one thing and that is what kind of queer we are.

And if any one is offended over me calling us , this community queers than I just have to say..

you didn't understand a thing I said and whether you did or not,, your too damn sensitive and I ain't into arguing about it..

seriously though.....This post was not intended to piss anyone off
If It does.............

......shrug, you dont know me, you took it wrong and I dont care.

Much peace everyone!!
I deeply and truly mean that!!
Stoney





And just plain stupid assholes.......fuck em ... who cares what they think... I aint wasting one minute explaining myself or validating, or defending anything to them

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

M'kay so no one told Heart not to post here..

What was requested and I am OK with this since I did it.. I requested what was said in a femme thread stay there and not be paraded around for butch validation. She don't have to listen I ain't her momma. and well I am perfectly ok with the decision to ask her not to. Hope that clarifies.

I have to go now and start the day

Peace

[Heart]

I did not post in this thread for butch validation.

I brought Medusa's question about sexism and misogyny into this thread because Met did not ask that question in her original post and I think it's a crucial question in any discussion about so-called gender wars or male/female divides here.

That may have been presumptuous and intrusive and single-minded of me, but it was not about getting any kind of butch validation.

I am sorry my cross-posting over-stepped, but the last thing I need for any post I ever make is butch validation.

Heart

[adorable]

Originally Posted by June

It clearly is a serious issue! Otherwise, we wouldn't have a gajillion threads going on the topic! People wouldn't be walking around all butt-hurt because they feel like they're not being heard! People wouldn't be making broad, generalized statements about how one group is welcome here and other groups aren't and making snide comments about how "It's just like the dash site" Well, duh. We're all the same navel gazing group (give or take a few) and we're loud, obnoxious and opinionated and we want to make sure our points get across. I can and do get strident about things as well. But as tired as I am sometimes of having/watching these conversations, I do learn from them, and I suspect others do as well, or they wouldn't keep coming back for more. And more. And more.

Ok. I don't think it's dramatic to say what I see happening - I do tend to speak dramatically for special effect. I'm glad my manner of speaking is translating well online. Makes me feel like people are getting me.

Except that they aren't.

For me the conversation about male IDs and misogyny needs to be separate. They are completely different things. I am reading all the conversations in both threads and what I read is that there is a sense that there isn't a bigger issue and that it's just a few people who have a problem. In my mind, as I am reading those statements, I am saying "Yes, there are a few people arguing back and forth because so many MALE ID'S LEFT!"

I'm not saying that THIS SITE specifically (because there is a different attitude from the ownership here entirely.) I am saying that over the years <---and I wasn't there for all the years I am exhausted just from the time I've spent...that they stopped coming around. Now, my friends of whom there are male IDs about 10 that don't come to this site or the other site anymore do not come because they don't want to fight about who they are inside constantly. When they speak up about themselves and their insides they are accused by some (not all) of misogyny or of being dismissive to women.

How they feel is seen by some as a CHOICE. That they are choosing to feel the way they do on the inside in an effort to be more of a bio born man because there is something wrong with being a woman. It is a ridiculous notion for me personally because I see how separate those two things are....but because some people don't understand that - it becomes one and the same.

People who chose to transition are not doing so because they want to be better then women. They are doing that so that their insides and outsides match. Young people, old people and all people in between are not choosing to be men just because it's cooler then being a woman. That sentiment is dismissive to who people are on the inside. And it is here. Right here. Right now.

There are male IDs on this site who have not spoken up. I can't blame them. I am a fighter, but yesterday even I had just had it. It was too much. I think lots of people felt the same way on all sides.

It is not enough for people to say that they don't do it so it's not there. I see it as no different then when our friends would say something to my ex like "Happy Cinco De Mayo" when they knew she wasn't Mexican - and she would say "I don't celebrate that, that is a Mexican holiday." And they would say "Well but you're Spanish right?"
"No, I'm Venezuelan."
"Same thing! You know what I mean!"
Except that she didn't.
OY! And, I didn't keep a tally, but that shit happened all the time. It's not exactly racism right? But it sure is dismissive of who she IS...

So to say to people who feel like men on the inside that they are welcome to be here and then accuse them of some agenda or misogyny when they are in threads talking about who they are - is kinda the same thing for me. "We are your friends. We know and appreciate who you are! You are sexist and misogynistic!...well you know what I mean.." Except that they don't. So then they are stuck in the same argument of defending themselves for how they feel inside.

Being a male ID has nothing at all to do with wanting to be superior to women. It isn't about being more "hetronormative" and seeing that as superior to queerdom.

SOME people will see what they want to see no matter what people say...
LOTS of people no longer engage in these discussions. I am sure that everyone is tired of it. I know that I am.

I know that I am sick of people taking other people's ID's as a personal attack on women or female IDs. I sure got sick real fast of defending my personal ID over and over. Or having to explain why I was a butch and why my version of butch wasn't femme or that I was somehow butch enough to be butch?? In fact, I stopped engaging in all discussions about that for myself. I can't keep justifying and fighting for my insides to people that are making arguments about what it means to me based on who they are inside. And don't even get me started on the PMs based on how I look. (which happened all the time on the dash site) Ugh.

And in that way I am silenced. In the same way I see male IDs being silenced. People can say "Well, that's on you! Don't let anyone silence you!" Ahhh, and they are right. That for me is a choice. One that I needed to make for myself so that I didn't go to bed crying every night because of who I am being misunderstood when what I wanted so desperately to be understood by someone somewhere. It's shitty when it happens in real time or online. And it happens. It's real. It sucks.

As for the people who say privately that they want it to be a women only space, they also are not speaking up. I would rather people just say it out loud so we can deal with that. I would never call them out individually. I consider these people my friends too. I just don't happen to agree with them.
That is probably the toughest stand to take in all of this. And no one wants to lose friendships as a result of how they personally feel. The group is powerful as a body. To risk exclusion is also powerful, regardless of who you are, what you believe or how you ID.

As for the facebook thing - that actually wasn't a personal thing. I still like Metro and her art. lol. I believe that it was all an issue of bad timing. And even tho she thought I didn't pay attention to her posts - I have paid attention to her posts long enough over a year to know that she's not an asshole. This is a hot topic for those of us trying to engage in a meaningful way. Which I can say that Metro does and for that I am grateful.

[Kobi]

Sometimes, one has to be brutally honest and let the chips fall where they may. I am tired and weary from trying to be nice and respectful and accomodating and seeing things from others perspective. Im tired of being made to feel like I need to compromise for the sake of harmony and solidarity.



-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

YES. OMG YES. I am a female id butch lesbian and it pisses me off to be lumped into a butch category with people who do not id as a female butch lesbian. I like female/femme/woman energy. That is what makes me who I am.

A male butch or male id butch is who they are. No harm, no foul. But the two are not synonymous.

I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?

I find it odd that to feel the female/woman/female energy that is who I am, I have to go peek in the femme zone cuz thats where the most visible aspect of who I am is. I feel comfortable there with female energy.

It pisses me off that the butch zone feels very male/masculine energy laden, that it makes me feel uncomfortable, that it make me feel like an outsider, that it makes me feel like a second class citizen.

There is a HUGE difference between female butch energy and male/male masculine energy. When someone tells me their brain is wired like a male, warning bells go off for me. Its called male privelege, male posturing, male stuff. It's not who I am or what I am about.

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

I am more at war with myself than I am with any particular group. I see the lesbian identity I love being thrown under the bus.

I am told that we as butches need to deconstruct our identities and reformulate them. There is nothing wrong with my lesbian butch identity. It is not damaged, it is not broken, it is not in need of repair. It does not need to be reformulated so I can be lumped in with male id anything. I am not a male id'd anything. I am a proud freakin dyke butch! And no task force should be telling me or anyone else how we id. Deal with the bigger issues related to the rights of alternative lifestyles not my identity.

I see a proliferation of youth running to become trans of one sought or another. Why are we seeing such huge growth in the nimbers of people who are the wrong gender? Does anyone besides me question why this is happening?

I seen a lot of misogyny and sexism in my day to day life. I see it here. It bothers me. Put a group of female energy together, it is one thing....add male energy to it, it becomes another. Check the studies on all female schools and how female excel academically in an all female environment. Put them in a mixed sex environment, it drops.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

Masculine id's do not have to have an agenda to attack anyone. There is a presumed privelege in our culture for all things male. They dont have to attack....women hand it to them on a silver platter.

I dont know if it is true, but some male id here put in one of these threads that the TOS says we are to respect, tolerate, accept, and honor. I tolerate things I dont understand or agree with. I accept things that make sense to me. I respect people not groups of ids. And even heterowomen knew enough to take honor out of the wedding vows. Honor is a male concept short for kiss my kiss. Not gonna happen.

Lastly, it is appalling how many of our female youth have no clue to the history of female life in the world. They take much for granted, much that those of my generation fought for so they could just assume it was always this way.

It is appalling how how backwards women have allowed themselves to slide and sadder that we dont even realize we are doing it.

We shouldnt not be diminishing the female butch lesbian id as I see happening on this site in order to bolster another group. And I am pissed at myself for vascilating between standing up for my people and buying into the need to find a compromise so everyone is happy.

If we really want to deal with the issues, we are going to have to put up with the anger, and all the rest of the emotions that are going to go along with it. It is bigger than gender id.





[/QUOTE]

[Dylan]

Once again, butch/femme equals lesbian female women (even though even some femmes don't ID as lesbian or female or women), and male IDs shouldn't be here...they should be on their own site for their own kind

Because having to skip over 'so many' threads is just too damned hard

And apparently, it's also hard to start a lesbian/female/woman thread


Dylan

Met, here's one of those examples you were asking for earlier

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Once again, butch/femme equals lesbian female women (even though even some femmes don't ID as lesbian or female or women), and male IDs shouldn't be here...they should be on their own site for their own kind

Because having to skip over 'so many' threads is just too damned hard

And apparently, it's also hard to start a lesbian/female/woman thread


Dylan

Met, here's one of those examples you were asking for earlier

Actually, Dylan, I'm gonna disagree with you on one part of this. I don't think it's enough to just "start a lesbian/female/woman thread". I think it's a feeling of belonging and having a place to call one's own.

Kobi, as I've said in my PM, I would like to create a lesbian "zone" (naming is open) and would like to you use post as the launching point of that if you are ok with that. I think it has merit and I've gotten supportive feedback from Medusa on it as well.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Sometimes, one has to be brutally honest and let the chips fall where they may. I am tired and weary from trying to be nice and respectful and accomodating and seeing things from others perspective. Im tired of being made to feel like I need to compromise for the sake of harmony and solidarity.



-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

YES. OMG YES. I am a female id butch lesbian and it pisses me off to be lumped into a butch category with people who do not id as a female butch lesbian. I like female/femme/woman energy. That is what makes me who I am.

A male butch or male id butch is who they are. No harm, no foul. But the two are not synonymous.

I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?

I find it odd that to feel the female/woman/female energy that is who I am, I have to go peek in the femme zone cuz thats where the most visible aspect of who I am is. I feel comfortable there with female energy.

It pisses me off that the butch zone feels very male/masculine energy laden, that it makes me feel uncomfortable, that it make me feel like an outsider, that it makes me feel like a second class citizen.

There is a HUGE difference between female butch energy and male/male masculine energy. When someone tells me their brain is wired like a male, warning bells go off for me. Its called male privelege, male posturing, male stuff. It's not who I am or what I am about.

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



-

Kobi,

Gloves off. You sound bitter and stuck. Why does me being me take away you being you? It doesn't.
You're a lesbian. I'm a queer. Maybe you should start YOUR OWN site instead of telling others to do that if you're worried my ID takes away from yours or maybe you're just worried my queerness might contaminate you.
I've heard this before.

[UofMfan]

And these are two of my examples of what I was talking about earlier.

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

Kobi,

Gloves off. You sound bitter and stuck. Why does me being me take away you being you? It doesn't.
You're a lesbian. I'm a queer. Maybe you should start YOUR OWN site instead of telling others to do that if you're worried my ID takes away from yours or maybe you're just worried my queerness might contaminate you.
I've heard this before.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Once again, butch/femme equals lesbian female women (even though even some femmes don't ID as lesbian or female or women), and male IDs shouldn't be here...they should be on their own site for their own kind

Because having to skip over 'so many' threads is just too damned hard

And apparently, it's also hard to start a lesbian/female/woman thread


Dylan

Met, here's one of those examples you were asking for earlier

[Medusa]

Kobi said: I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?



I'll address this from my place as an Admin on this site.

When I built the structure of these forums, I made a Butch Zone, a Femme Zone, and a Trans Zone because those are *gender* categories that this site focuses on.

What you are suggesting about "lesbians cant have a freakin' category" is not really on par with the idea that the *gender zones* are a "category".

"Lesbian" is implied in the way that we say this is a "Queer" site, meaning ALL identities be they Lesbian/Gay/Queer/etc.


Edited to add: The last sentence BECAUSE we have Lesbian Butches, Lesbian Femmes, and Lesbian Transfolks. BECAUSE we ahve GAY Butches, GAY Femmes, GAY Transfolks. BECAUSE we have Queer Butches, Queer Femmes, Queer Transfolks.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Linus

Actually, Dylan, I'm gonna disagree with you on one part of this. I don't think it's enough to just "start a lesbian/female/woman thread". I think it's a feeling of belonging and having a place to call one's own.

Kobi, as I've said in my PM, I would like to create a lesbian "zone" (naming is open) and would like to you use post as the launching point of that if you are ok with that. I think it has merit and I've gotten supportive feedback from Medusa on it as well.

Linus,

I wasn't talking about the Lesbian Zone part. I actually agreed with that part. And I so get that.

But the 'start your own site' is where I had a problem (for the record to anyone who's unaware...there are transmen sites). This is a lesbian/woman/female space? I had a problem. Butch/femme is women/lesbian/female? I had a problem. Men are the enemy...warning bells go off? I had a problem. Why aren't there any lesbian threads in the gender forum? Start one.


Dylan

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?

That right there, to me personally, hurt my feelings. A lot.

So because I'm not a lesbian you do not want to have to share a website with me? I am not welcome in your space?

A little backhistory on me. I have been with women for 13 years now. I am turning 33 in a couple of weeks. The first three years I was with women - I was ONLY with women. I called myself a lesbian. I wasn't. Know why I said I was something I wasn't? Because it was made -very- clear to me that who/what I actually am is distasteful. Bad. Pandering to male desires.

I like to use the word Queer to describe who I am. It's my identity. But if we want to get super-technical...when it boils down to it I -am- bi/pansexual.

After 3 years of being out I had to come out again as what I really am - and I lost a tonne of friends. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how I was SHIT ON by lesbians because I happened to start dating someone who happened to have a penis.

Since I was 20 I've dated a lot of people. Mostly not serious (cuz that's what dating is) sometimes it was just sex (because women like to fuck, too) and some times it has been serious. Absolutely, in the last 13 years I've been with more women than I have been with men - but (aside from the fact that I'm married and monogamous) men are not ruled out for me by virtue of their being men. I am attracted to a person for their manner of being, the interests we share, and sometimes their shoes or haircut - FIRST. Their sex or identity comes second. And because their sex or identity comes second...even among the females I have been with, there is no real trend. I've been with all sorts. (Except for Femmes, I've never been with one. Although there was a time when I was so in love with my BFF who was Femme that I cried when she left a party with some dumb slutty Butch who fucked every single thing in a skirt in the city of Toronto - there's no way I'm ever gonna tell HER that, though.)

I'm a minority within a minority within a minority. If I'm not welcome HERE then, jesus, where am I welcome?

Right. So when you start talking about a Lesbian-only website - you start talking about the sort of website where I would not be welcome. You start talking about the sort of website that would completely alienate me because my fluidity makes the members of said website SO SUPER UNCOMFORTABLE. You start talking about the sort of website that, frankly, I would want no part of - since I know I don't belong there.

Have you not made any meaningful connections/friendships with people from this site who are not lesbians? Haven't you? Not even one? Think hard - I bet you have. And would you be willing to give up any non-lesbian friends you've made in favour of having a website where you would never have to associate with anybody who is different from you?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants?
Because we ARE a mixed group of participants and that makes us awesome.

Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them?
Those sites exist. That SPACE, however, ALSO exists on this site and that also makes us awesome.

Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there?
This website IS a home that honors those identities and yours. Because so many Transpeople have roots in Butch/Femme culture, they have a home here. Not a tolerated home, a home. No qualifier. Full stop.


Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community.
And you have that here if you choose to embrace it. There are a LOT of people who identify as "Lesbian" on this site...that includes a few Transpeople who identify as a Lesbian. Are you shocked? Or did you think that only women born women identify as Lesbians?
When you say you fought to be a Lesbian, did you mean that you fought for women-only space? When you said that you wanted a Lesbian community, did you mean a "women only" community?

What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own?
They have and they do. Right here. That doesnt make us a "Trans" website or a "Male" website, it means we are an inclusive website and that makes us awesome.


Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home?
I think I read you saying that Trans people and Male -identified people are just here to "get some pussy".
If that is indeed what you are saying, it's problematic on a couple of levels. First off, it implies that Transpeople or Male-identified people are vultures coming to pick the bones of the hoards of willing pussies clean. Not. So. Much.
Secondly, it implies that we Femmes are so automated, so "Stepford Pussied" that we cant discern for ourselves what we are attracted to.
There are a lot of very attractive Transmen and Male-identified people up in this space. When I was single, I didn't run right out and get me one of those fancy Trans models or play "Penelope Peril" on the railroad tracks of "prey" and "predator" simply because Thinker or Linus or Dylan EXISTED. Why? Because my desires arent that shallow.

Why mess up a good thing?

What's the "good thing" Kobi? A community without any sort of male-identified or Male presence at all? Im trying to understand the last part?

[/QUOTE]


Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

[Kobi]

[I'll address this from my place as an Admin on this site.

When I built the structure of these forums, I made a Butch Zone, a Femme Zone, and a Trans Zone because those are *gender* categories that this site focuses on.

What you are suggesting about "lesbians cant have a freakin' category" is not really on par with the idea that the *gender zones* are a "category".

"Lesbian" is implied in the way that we say this is a "Queer" site, meaning ALL identities be they Lesbian/Gay/Queer/etc.


Edited to add: The last sentence BECAUSE we have Lesbian Butches, Lesbian Femmes, and Lesbian Transfolks. BECAUSE we ahve GAY Butches, GAY Femmes, GAY Transfolks. BECAUSE we have Queer Butches, Queer Femmes, Queer Transfolks.[/QUOTE]

Thank you explaining this but I still dont get it. This approach is all new to me, I dont know the vernacular and what it means. I have been out of the loop for 20 years. Someone says third gender and Im like there is a third gender?

And Im not trying to be a bitch, Im trying to understand something and everytime I think I got a piece of it, I realize I dont.

When you say butch, femme, and trans are the gender categories that this focuses on and the rest of us are lumped into queer....I have a problem with that. You can categorize your site anyway you want lol, Im just trying to put the pieces together so I understand what ya'll are talking about. I dont know if I fit here. Im trying to figure that out.

The larger community everyone seems to point to is the GLBTIQ one. So gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans, I dont know what I is and Queer. I dont see femme or butch here. I do see lesbian and trans.

Femmes are a gender? Butches are a gender? And lesbians are what? Other? Miscellaneous?

It is your site, you can define it anyway you like. But to me, to say butch, femme, trans are the genders we deal with and the rest of you are a fruit salad seems sexist and misogynistic and misandriatic (I think thats right), and homophobic to me. It doesnt feel like those of us in the fruit salad are seen on an equal par with the rest of the identities that we are supposed to respect, accept, tolerate, and maybe honor.

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.

On the one hand, I hear we need to be excepting of all id's, male, female, butch, femme, male id, female id etc but we decided to categorize you so you cant easily self identify even tho we want you to but it doesnt fit the plan so dont ask questions cuz it doesnt make sense but that the way it is.

Again, I am trying to understand something that is not making sense to me. This is not computing and maybe it wasnt meant. Maybe I just dont belong here. Cuz no one is gonna tell me I, as a lesbian, must fit myself into preconceived notions. That is homophobic.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Sometimes, one has to be brutally honest and let the chips fall where they may. I am tired and weary from trying to be nice and respectful and accomodating and seeing things from others perspective. Im tired of being made to feel like I need to compromise for the sake of harmony and solidarity.



-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

YES. OMG YES. I am a female id butch lesbian and it pisses me off to be lumped into a butch category with people who do not id as a female butch lesbian. I like female/femme/woman energy. That is what makes me who I am.

A male butch or male id butch is who they are. No harm, no foul. But the two are not synonymous.

I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?

I find it odd that to feel the female/woman/female energy that is who I am, I have to go peek in the femme zone cuz thats where the most visible aspect of who I am is. I feel comfortable there with female energy.

It pisses me off that the butch zone feels very male/masculine energy laden, that it makes me feel uncomfortable, that it make me feel like an outsider, that it makes me feel like a second class citizen.

There is a HUGE difference between female butch energy and male/male masculine energy. When someone tells me their brain is wired like a male, warning bells go off for me. Its called male privelege, male posturing, male stuff. It's not who I am or what I am about.

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

I am more at war with myself than I am with any particular group. I see the lesbian identity I love being thrown under the bus.

I am told that we as butches need to deconstruct our identities and reformulate them. There is nothing wrong with my lesbian butch identity. It is not damaged, it is not broken, it is not in need of repair. It does not need to be reformulated so I can be lumped in with male id anything. I am not a male id'd anything. I am a proud freakin dyke butch! And no task force should be telling me or anyone else how we id. Deal with the bigger issues related to the rights of alternative lifestyles not my identity.

I see a proliferation of youth running to become trans of one sought or another. Why are we seeing such huge growth in the nimbers of people who are the wrong gender? Does anyone besides me question why this is happening?

I seen a lot of misogyny and sexism in my day to day life. I see it here. It bothers me. Put a group of female energy together, it is one thing....add male energy to it, it becomes another. Check the studies on all female schools and how female excel academically in an all female environment. Put them in a mixed sex environment, it drops.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

Masculine id's do not have to have an agenda to attack anyone. There is a presumed privelege in our culture for all things male. They dont have to attack....women hand it to them on a silver platter.

I dont know if it is true, but some male id here put in one of these threads that the TOS says we are to respect, tolerate, accept, and honor. I tolerate things I dont understand or agree with. I accept things that make sense to me. I respect people not groups of ids. And even heterowomen knew enough to take honor out of the wedding vows. Honor is a male concept short for kiss my kiss. Not gonna happen.

Lastly, it is appalling how many of our female youth have no clue to the history of female life in the world. They take much for granted, much that those of my generation fought for so they could just assume it was always this way.

It is appalling how how backwards women have allowed themselves to slide and sadder that we dont even realize we are doing it.

We shouldnt not be diminishing the female butch lesbian id as I see happening on this site in order to bolster another group. And I am pissed at myself for vascilating between standing up for my people and buying into the need to find a compromise so everyone is happy.

If we really want to deal with the issues, we are going to have to put up with the anger, and all the rest of the emotions that are going to go along with it. It is bigger than gender id.

[/QUOTE]

Kobi
I don't agree with a damn thing that you said.
I think your wrong, and not just a little wrong.
Other people have already said what I was thinking.
I also want to thank you for having the guts to say it.
I for one appreciate the honesty.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?

When I first discovered an online butch/femme community, I felt like I had finally found my people. Being relatively isolated, it filled an emptiness I felt; yes, I had friends in my real time life, but none identified as butches and femmes, much less transgender. I was blessed to be able to socialize with an FTM on several occasions. That said, it has always been my belief, that because I once tried to be a woman, and tried to be a dyke/lesbian and led consciousness raising groups on the myriad of isms in our society, marched and fought for women's rights as well as LGBQT rights, pioneered with others to create organizations to address the isms, and the rights of women and those who fall into the category of LGBQT, that I would be welcome here. Transitioning does not erase my past, nor does it transform me into a popular cliche I have heard more than once, right here, a "knuckle dragging male."

When I was trying to be a woman, I accomplished a number of things, as "the first woman to do/be ______." I did not succeed because of male privilege, but because I refused to be told that I was limited to be who I wanted to be, or what I chose to do. I dislike tooting my own horn, but I think it is important for others here to know that I transitioned to male, not for the privilege, but because it was a matter of being true to myself.

[JustJo]

I am almost scared to come into this thread, but I am anyway (cuz that's the kind of femme I am....or, the term I prefer to embrace, the kind of pushy broad I am).

Anyway, I appreciate all of those who are being honest in here...whether I agree with them or not. I've thanked posts that I agree with, and some that I don't - because I believe that they are speaking their own truth fearlessly...and I admire that even when I don't agree.

What I'm seeing here are alot of assumptions. If someone asks for a lesbian space then they're dissing non-lesbians, if they claim an ID then they're dissing those that don't ID that way. If they are trans then they're claiming or somehow unaware of male privilege. I just don't agree. I think what Liam said here is key (and pardon me taking such a short snip Liam)

Originally Posted by Liam

I transitioned to male, not for the privilege, but because it was a matter of being true to myself.

We are all here in our own way, because it's who we are. I didn't decide to claim female or woman...it's who I am. I presume that those who claim male or queer or butch or femme or lesbian or fill in the blank are doing the same thing. And being me isn't dissing you, undermining you or taking anything from you (general you...of course).

And one tiny note...I keep hearing all of this (pardon me, but in my opinion) total crap about women being somehow less than, weaker than, or less capable than men. In my experience, not even close. In my life, the women have been stronger and more resilient. I understand that's not everyone's experience...and no, I'm not hating on men. But in my experience it's the women who stick around and do what needs to be done...even when it's damn hard to do. It's the women who have made sure that children were provided for, that friends were listened to, and that the community stayed a community. If my life exploded tomorrow, I know who I could call for help...and they were all born with vaginas.

And, yes, I'm getting cranky. Sorry.