Permission to propose - Page 4

aishah · 09-02-2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I get it now, so you are in a heteronormative/straight relationship, therefore you being butch=male and she being femme=female.

So since you are butch=male you went with the whole ask for her hand in marriage etc etc.

I get it.

I thought I'd share a thread Mrs Arcstriker started for couples such as yourselves here is the link

CLICK ME

You'd probably get more traditional advice from them than most of us.

Good luck on your nuptials!!

i had no idea that thread was supposed to be about heteronormative relationships. i thought it was about trans folks and partners of trans folks (heteronormative or not).

The_Lady_Snow · 09-02-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aishah

i had no idea that thread was supposed to be about heteronormative relationships. i thought it was about trans folks and partners of trans folks.

I must of read it wrong

My apologies

Shit, sorry Steph I was totally mistaken about the thread I put the saddle ahead of the horse

apretty · 09-02-2012, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony

Hey, instead of having wars, we'd just have a bunch of countries not talking to each other. Lol.

This isn't funny, having a vagina doesn't make you a passive aggressive communicator.

Tcountry · 09-02-2012, 01:43 PM

To me it is tradition& respect to ask the head of household ..or at least tell them, hey this is what I'd like to do...
its not about the response ..its about showing them the respect of asking.

Of course there are limits ...if she isn't close to family, if family has left this physical world, things like that....but traditionally, if possible...yes I would respect the head of household. But that's just me...& thats assuming I would be the one asking.

aishah · 09-02-2012, 01:45 PM

c. and i have exchanged rings. i don't know if we'll ever have a ceremony, and we can't get legally married. my parents were gone well before we got together and he doesn't have a close relationship with his, although i might be meeting his dad at christmas. neither of us are big fans of tradition so there was no asking (nor would there ever be). the only person whose consent really matters to either of us is our own.

Martina · 09-02-2012, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tcountry

the head of household ..or at least tell them

ick if that is assumed to be dad as a rule

Tony · 09-02-2012, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Funny, I don't think communication is gender based...

Also scientifically YOU have the same brain I do...

So your observations make no sense to me...

Well, I don't claim to make sense. Lol. I was also agreeing w/Greyson but obviously not communicating well. I believe women are in charge AND they should be. Albeit, more visibly, but I still think more than people believe they are. And again, THAT'S A GOOD THING! ;-)

bright_arrow · 09-02-2012, 01:51 PM

This is a slight derail, but with the talk of religion and rituals and wedding and heterosexuality and such, I figured I may as well mention our wedding and how/why we did what we did, if there was even a reason.

We were legally married within an inter-faith church by a pagan priestess. We were given a blessing by a fellow pastor because he wanted to be there, and his religion would not allow him to marry us so that was the best gift he could give us.

The church we were married in is one of Bard's favorite places. It was not a matter of religion, or how it may be more acceptable to society - it was simply a place that was sacred to her. Mary, our priestess, was absolutely wonderful. We wanted more of a spiritual ceremony than religious. She spoke of the elements, the higher being, the union of our families - vague enough not to offend any of my Catholic family but enough to feel the love.

We had a unity sand with three vases to bring Bard's daughter into the ceremony with us, because it was not a bonding of not two but three. We were handfasted, then exchanged rings because as Mary put it: we can not be together physically all the time, so the rings are a representation of our bond and commitment towards each other.

I am her wife, and she is my husband, wife, husbutch - we have not settled on an exact term. Normally, she is just my wife. My father (lovingly) will refer to her as my husband, and she occasionally refers to herself as my hus(house)butch. There is fluidity in the pronouns, but we don't care. I wore a dress because I like dresses, and she wore a tux because she likes tuxes. It was not a matter of her representing the 'man' in the relationship. It's just how she dresses, and it is no different than her everyday wear.

Would our wedding fit the stereotypical heterosexual wedding? Yes. Do I care? Not in the least. I got married, our family and friends were there to celebrate it with us, and we put aside enough wedding money to come celebrate with you fine folks. Win, win!

Ciaran · 09-02-2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony

And I did say its a good thing. Women have a much better reasoning power than we do. IMO

I detest this sort of gender stereotyping. In my mind, it's the reverse of "women cannot ...." way of thinking and it's the same bull****.

Doesn't matter whether you say it's a good thing or whether it's seen as pro-women. In my opinion, it's crude gender stereotyping.

Kobi · 09-02-2012, 01:54 PM

Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter.

The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things.

Did you know:

Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention.

Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple.

Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away.

Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold.

Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant.

Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice.

Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master.

Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away.

I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site.

And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts?

aishah · 09-02-2012, 01:56 PM

the head of our household was my mom...even though she did remarry a few years after getting divorced. she made the decisions no matter what.

i think that's one of the funny things about our relationship...i love it when he tops, or takes on the role of daddy (we take turns, it's cool)...but he usually defers to me when it comes to decision making.

with traditional marriage stuff, a lot of the ickiness i have with it is around class and cultural differences. even if my parents were alive, there'd be no asking, although my mom's input would probably be a part of the process of deciding whether the relation even GOT that far. i mean, my mom's opinion mattered a lot to me so if she thought it was a bad idea then i'd stop and question why, though it wouldn't be a make or break thing. most people don't really get legally married, though, so i don't think it would be an issue that we can't and don't want to...we'd fit right in with the rest of my family, lol.

but paying for the wedding and economic support and all that...i get that some people can do that or want to do that, but it completely and utterly blows my mind. i don't know anybody growing up whose parents did that (or were able to). c.'s extended family is pretty upper class and traditional so i guess they see things that way when it comes to his cousins and stuff, but for me it's mind-boggling. i mean, i know people do it, it's just very far removed from the way i grew up and the relationships i was around, so it's hard for me to imagine.

Tony · 09-02-2012, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I detest this sort of gender stereotyping. In my mind, it's the reverse of "women cannot ...." way of thinking and it's the same bull****.

With all due respect, I am not stereotyping. I am however obviously guilty of not communicating well today via this stupid smart phone.
And I said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot."
I do believe I was more than supportive of women, so my apologies for being misunderstood.

stephfromMIT · 09-02-2012, 01:59 PM

desd-Other than our officiant being a UU minister, our weddings are quite similiar.

Kobi-VERY interesting info on traditions and their origins.

BullDog · 09-02-2012, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desd

This is a slight derail, but with the talk of religion and rituals and wedding and heterosexuality and such, I figured I may as well mention our wedding and how/why we did what we did, if there was even a reason.

We were legally married within an inter-faith church by a pagan priestess. We were given a blessing by a fellow pastor because he wanted to be there, and his religion would not allow him to marry us so that was the best gift he could give us.

The church we were married in is one of Bard's favorite places. It was not a matter of religion, or how it may be more acceptable to society - it was simply a place that was sacred to her. Mary, our priestess, was absolutely wonderful. We wanted more of a spiritual ceremony than religious. She spoke of the elements, the higher being, the union of our families - vague enough not to offend any of my Catholic family but enough to feel the love.

We had a unity sand with three vases to bring Bard's daughter into the ceremony with us, because it was not a bonding of not two but three. We were handfasted, then exchanged rings because as Mary put it: we can not be together physically all the time, so the rings are a representation of our bond and commitment towards each other.

I am her wife, and she is my husband, wife, husbutch - we have not settled on an exact term. Normally, she is just my wife. My father (lovingly) will refer to her as my husband, and she occasionally refers to herself as my hus(house)butch. There is fluidity in the pronouns, but we don't care. I wore a dress because I like dresses, and she wore a tux because she likes tuxes. It was not a matter of her representing the 'man' in the relationship. It's just how she dresses, and it is no different than her everyday wear.

Would our wedding fit the stereotypical heterosexual wedding? Yes. Do I care? Not in the least. I got married, our family and friends were there to celebrate it with us, and we put aside enough wedding money to come celebrate with you fine folks. Win, win!

Yes exactly! I wore a tux last year to the Reunion and will wear one this year. If I get married I will be wearing one as well. I will be a butch groom, not representing the man.

I do not subscribe to butch=male; femme=female. Some do, but I do not.

bright_arrow · 09-02-2012, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aishah

the head of our household was my mom...even though she did remarry a few years after getting divorced. she made the decisions no matter what.

i think that's one of the funny things about our relationship...i love it when he tops, or takes on the role of daddy (we take turns, it's cool)...but he usually defers to me when it comes to decision making.

with traditional marriage stuff, a lot of the ickiness i have with it is around class and cultural differences. even if my parents were alive, there'd be no asking, although my mom's input would probably be a part of the process of deciding whether the relation even GOT that far. i mean, my mom's opinion mattered a lot to me so if she thought it was a bad idea then i'd stop and question why, though it wouldn't be a make or break thing. most people don't really get legally married, though, so i don't think it would be an issue that we can't and don't want to...we'd fit right in with the rest of my family, lol.

but paying for the wedding and economic support and all that...i get that some people can do that or want to do that, but it completely and utterly blows my mind. i don't know anybody growing up whose parents did that (or were able to). c.'s extended family is pretty upper class and traditional so i guess they see things that way, but for me it's mind-boggling. i mean, i know people do it, it's just very far removed from the way i grew up and the relationships i was around, so it's hard for me to imagine.

We did not intend for anyone to help us pay. Our parents offered to pay for the reception 50/50, and we felt it would be rude to decline such a gift. My parents passed down the rings they were married with 25 years ago. I am the oldest, and the first one married, and my father went above and beyond and paid for our dj and cake. My sister will be given the same. Everything else we paid for ourselves.

We were set on pizza and wings in a big log cabin by some waterfalls, but apparently that was too eccentric for my father (and thus the offering to pay for the reception came).

Ciaran · 09-02-2012, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony

With all due respect, I am not stereotyping. I am however obviously guilty of not communicating well today via this stupid smart phone.
And I said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot."
I do believe I was more than supportive of women, so my apologies for being misunderstood.

No apology needed.

However, you were sterotyping. You said women "have much better reasoning power" than men. If that's not stereotyping, I don't know what is.

I know that you said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot". However, I was simply responding that, in my view, crude gender stereotypes such as "women have much better reasoning power than men" are all part of that same gender stereotyping equation which discredits the individual.

bright_arrow · 09-02-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony

With all due respect, I am not stereotyping. I am however obviously guilty of not communicating well today via this stupid smart phone.
And I said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot."
I do believe I was more than supportive of women, so my apologies for being misunderstood.

I believe Ciaran was saying it's the same as saying "Women cannot do ___ because only men can." "Men cannot 'reasonably communicate' because only women can."

That is how I read it, please correct me if I am wrong.

bright_arrow · 09-02-2012, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes exactly! I wore a tux last year to the Reunion and will wear one this year. If I get married I will be wearing one as well. I will be a butch groom, not representing the man.

I do not subscribe to butch=male; femme=female. Some do, but I do not.

Bard mentions sometimes that mayhaps hy will lose hys butch card because hy can't do something "a butch should be able to do". This is in reference to say, car stuff. Some things we associate as more a male trait, but it is mostly in jest and not in a serious or condescending manner.

In our relationship, hy cooks because I am a limited cook, and I clean because I enjoy it whereas hy would prefer to just cook. Hy does most of the laundry, and I am often buying stuff to decorate the home. When the car breaks down, we go to a mechanic. Easy as that!

Tony · 09-02-2012, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciaran

No apology needed.

However, you were sterotyping. You said women "have much better reasoning power" than men. If that's not stereotyping, I don't know what is.

I know that you said nothing remotely resembling "women cannot". However, I was simply responding that, in my view, crude gender stereotypes such as "women have much better reasoning power than men" are all part of that same gender stereotyping equation which discredits the individual.

I did say "I believe women have better reasoning power than men." I stand by that but I should have added, IMO. That's what I believe these threads & forums are about; voicing & discussing opinions. The word stereotype has a negative connotation, which come to think of it, might make for a good thread in itself.
The differences, perceptions of opinions versus stereotyping.

Kobi · 09-02-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony

I'm of the ilk that women do truly rule the world. One way or another. They raised the men that sit in power. They're married to the men in power. And more & more they are assuming that power.
And not necessarily a bad thing.

Ok I am twitching again.

In your eyes, women rule the world one way or another because we raised (and gave birth to btw) the men in power, and cuz we are married to the men in power. And, somehow more and more we are assuming that power and its not necessarily a bad thing.

Ok might be a back handed chauvinistic attempt at a compliment. Im not sure. Feels patronizing.

Have you even heard of the War on Women that is going on?

09-02-2012, 01:43 PM	#64
Tcountry Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Country Boi Preferred Pronoun?: call it as u see it Relationship Status: Completely...complete ;) Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Either at the beach or in the pool Posts: 1,665 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,929 Thanked 4,287 Times in 1,181 Posts Rep Power: 21474851	To me it is tradition& respect to ask the head of household ..or at least tell them, hey this is what I'd like to do... its not about the response ..its about showing them the respect of asking. Of course there are limits ...if she isn't close to family, if family has left this physical world, things like that....but traditionally, if possible...yes I would respect the head of household. But that's just me...& thats assuming I would be the one asking. __________________ "You don't Find life worth living; You MAKE IT that way"

09-02-2012, 01:51 PM	#68
bright_arrow ☆ the stars are aligned ☆ How Do You Identify?: strong, independent, badass redhead Preferred Pronoun?: babygirl, buttercup, sugah Relationship Status: married to my Boo Daddy <3 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: east bay, cali Posts: 2,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,643 Thanked 9,359 Times in 2,295 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Our wedding and such This is a slight derail, but with the talk of religion and rituals and wedding and heterosexuality and such, I figured I may as well mention our wedding and how/why we did what we did, if there was even a reason. We were legally married within an inter-faith church by a pagan priestess. We were given a blessing by a fellow pastor because he wanted to be there, and his religion would not allow him to marry us so that was the best gift he could give us. The church we were married in is one of Bard's favorite places. It was not a matter of religion, or how it may be more acceptable to society - it was simply a place that was sacred to her. Mary, our priestess, was absolutely wonderful. We wanted more of a spiritual ceremony than religious. She spoke of the elements, the higher being, the union of our families - vague enough not to offend any of my Catholic family but enough to feel the love. We had a unity sand with three vases to bring Bard's daughter into the ceremony with us, because it was not a bonding of not two but three. We were handfasted, then exchanged rings because as Mary put it: we can not be together physically all the time, so the rings are a representation of our bond and commitment towards each other. I am her wife, and she is my husband, wife, husbutch - we have not settled on an exact term. Normally, she is just my wife. My father (lovingly) will refer to her as my husband, and she occasionally refers to herself as my hus(house)butch. There is fluidity in the pronouns, but we don't care. I wore a dress because I like dresses, and she wore a tux because she likes tuxes. It was not a matter of her representing the 'man' in the relationship. It's just how she dresses, and it is no different than her everyday wear. Would our wedding fit the stereotypical heterosexual wedding? Yes. Do I care? Not in the least. I got married, our family and friends were there to celebrate it with us, and we put aside enough wedding money to come celebrate with you fine folks. Win, win!

09-02-2012, 01:54 PM	#70
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,662 Times in 7,652 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	Asking for a womans hand in marriage is steeped, as Bully and Belle pointed out, from the days where women were seen as property and "asking" was more of a negotiation as to the terms of the transfer of ownership. In some cases/cultures, it was the groom offering payment in exchange for the bride. In others, it was the brides family providing payment in order to marry off a daughter. The meanings of engagement/wedding traditions change thru the years and they have gone from practical and functional to being romanticized. Not sure what to call todays ways of doing things. Did you know: Engagement ring: The engagement ring represents the marriage purchase where the groom made a partial payment for the bride and represented his honorable intention. Best man: Warriors who stole their wives needed a warrior to help them fight off the woman's family and prevent them from finding the couple. Bride on the left: The bride's family is on the left and the grooms family is on the right during weddings because in warrior days, the groom held the bride in his left hand and fought off her family with his right hand as he stole her away. Carrying bride: During the days of "Marriage by Capture," the bride was certainly not going to go peacefully into the bridegroom's abode; thus, she was dragged or carried across the threshold. Honeymoon: When warrior grooms abducted their wives they would stay hidden with them for a month, or through all of the moon's changes so that when the family found them she would already be pregnant. Bridal Shower: It is believed that the first bridal shower was for a poor couple who were not given a dowry because the groom was a miller. Instead of getting the dowry from the father, the miller's friends showered the bride with gifts. Or, it may come from Holland, when bride's father did not approve of the husband-to-be, he would not provide her with the necessary dowry. The bride's friends would therefore "shower" her with gifts so she would have her dowry and thus marry the man of her choice. Shoes Tied on the Car Bumper - Brides' shoes once were considered to be symbols of authority and possession. They used to be taken from her when she was led to the wedding place, and given to the groom by her father, effecting the transfer of his authority to her husband and as a sign that the husband now had possession of her (and she couldn't run away). The new husband then tapped her on the head to show his new role as her master. Incidentally, the ever-popular horn honking has its beginnings in the days when brides traveled in open carriages. They were an easy target for evil spirits, so defenders would use bells and firecrackers to scare them away. I learn the most interesting things from participating on this site. And, I have forgotten what the original question was. Can someone let me know when the prenuptial agreement thread starts? __________________

09-02-2012, 01:45 PM	#65
aishah Member How Do You Identify?: queer stone femme shark baby girl Preferred Pronoun?: she, her, little one Relationship Status: dating myself. Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: dallas, tx Posts: 1,495 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,823 Thanked 6,437 Times in 1,288 Posts Rep Power: 21474850	c. and i have exchanged rings. i don't know if we'll ever have a ceremony, and we can't get legally married. my parents were gone well before we got together and he doesn't have a close relationship with his, although i might be meeting his dad at christmas. neither of us are big fans of tradition so there was no asking (nor would there ever be). the only person whose consent really matters to either of us is our own.

09-02-2012, 01:56 PM	#71
aishah Member How Do You Identify?: queer stone femme shark baby girl Preferred Pronoun?: she, her, little one Relationship Status: dating myself. Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: dallas, tx Posts: 1,495 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,823 Thanked 6,437 Times in 1,288 Posts Rep Power: 21474850	the head of our household was my mom...even though she did remarry a few years after getting divorced. she made the decisions no matter what. i think that's one of the funny things about our relationship...i love it when he tops, or takes on the role of daddy (we take turns, it's cool)...but he usually defers to me when it comes to decision making. with traditional marriage stuff, a lot of the ickiness i have with it is around class and cultural differences. even if my parents were alive, there'd be no asking, although my mom's input would probably be a part of the process of deciding whether the relation even GOT that far. i mean, my mom's opinion mattered a lot to me so if she thought it was a bad idea then i'd stop and question why, though it wouldn't be a make or break thing. most people don't really get legally married, though, so i don't think it would be an issue that we can't and don't want to...we'd fit right in with the rest of my family, lol. but paying for the wedding and economic support and all that...i get that some people can do that or want to do that, but it completely and utterly blows my mind. i don't know anybody growing up whose parents did that (or were able to). c.'s extended family is pretty upper class and traditional so i guess they see things that way when it comes to his cousins and stuff, but for me it's mind-boggling. i mean, i know people do it, it's just very far removed from the way i grew up and the relationships i was around, so it's hard for me to imagine.

09-02-2012, 01:59 PM	#73
stephfromMIT Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Troll Preferred Pronoun?: she her Relationship Status: engaged to my fiancee Amanda Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: cambridge MA Posts: 230 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 703 Thanked 408 Times in 143 Posts Rep Power: 0	desd-Other than our officiant being a UU minister, our weddings are quite similiar. Kobi-VERY interesting info on traditions and their origins.