Do Businesses Have the Right to Refuse Service Based on Moral/Religious Objections?

[suebee]

Originally Posted by adorable

At the time I thought it was where eskimo's lived which made it that much cooler. Imagine my disappointment when I finally made it to the library and there were no igloo pictures in the Saskatchewan books.

Now stop forcing me to derail this thread. AND let me borrow a million coins.
Thanks.

The cheque's in the mail.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by suebee

I guess I have to be very clear - and I've posted this here and in other threads: Canada is certainly not lily-white as far as it's history is concerned. But it seems to have evolved differently in so much as the U.S. has a much more prevelant problem with race relations today. I'm not saying that there isn't racism here either, but there is a tension in the States that always seems just below the boiling point. Is it because the practice of slavery, and therefore the population descended from them was so much larger? Is it because of the way that the U.S. declared it's independence and subsequently wrote a document that greatly valorized individual rights over collective? I don't know. But there are differences between the two countries today, and I think the laws against discrimination - such as the one first discussed by the OP are a reflection of those differences.

Food for thought, for sure.

Oh, I think that the structural and institutionalized racism stemming from US black slavery is very different than Canada. Our histories with native peoples is much more closely related.

There are many, many of Canada's political stances and policies that I wish the US would follow suit with- same-sex marriage and a public health care system for examples.

I agree that individual vs. collective "freedoms" is a large part of what does make our countries different within this context (the thread). I often have difficulty with just how stuck we can get in the US on this. Funny, I have always thought for me personally, this was due to my own family and ethnic background and the time frame in which my family came to the states. For me, as a person, individual rights do not trump what is best for the masses. Working for the common good is just part of my background and I have often felt alone in this as a US citizen.

I wonder, and do not know what the break down of POC to whites is in Canada. How diverse is Canada in terms of race and ethnicity within the overall population? And how does this compare to the US? (Now I have my work cut out for me!). And if it is not as diverse as the US, this might be part of the differences in racial and ethnic tensions- and yes, black slavery as an economic and structural institution along with post US Civil War Jim Crowe laws has a role that unfortunately does give the US a differing context.

Yet, both the US and Canada do not have a lot of room to talk when it comes to how native peoples were treated.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I wonder, and do not know what the break down of POC to whites is in Canada. How diverse is Canada in terms of race and ethnicity within the overall population? And how does this compare to the US? (Now I have my work cut out for me!). And if it is not as diverse as the US, this might be part of the differences in racial and ethnic tensions- and yes, black slavery as an economic and structural institution along with post US Civil War Jim Crowe laws has a role that unfortunately does give the US a differing context.

The question of demographics in Canada is difficult to answer because for some reason the government does not consider Aboriginal people to be POC. (I bet there are no Inuit, for example, who consider themselves white, though. So the whole thing makes absolutely no sense.) So this means that whenever you look at demographics in Canada the breakdown always includes First Nations people in with the Caucasian group.

So I googled around and found that in 2006 3.8% of the population is Aboriginal (First Nations, Inuit, Metis)

16.20% of the total population (according to the 2006 census) is a "visible minority". If you include Native people in with that it's exactly 20%. Breakdown:

Whitey - 80.0%
South Asian - 4.0%
Aboriginal - 3.8%
Chinese - 3.7%
Black - 2.5%
Filipino - 1.3%
Latin American - 1.0%
Arab - 0.9%
Southeast Asian - 0.7%
West Asian - 0.5%
Korean - 0.4%
Japanese - 0.2%
Multiple visible minorities - 0.3%
Visible minority, n.i.e. - 0.2%

I have no idea what "Visible minority, n.i.e." is. No idea.

Anyway, I don't know how things spread out in the US but you'll also find that what Canada looks like is REALLY different between our large cities and small towns. I know Toronto is a solid 50/50 split (like 50 percent of Torontonians are POC 50 percent are white - roughly. But this depends on the neighborhood, Scarborough for example was 68% POC in 2006 ) but if you go to a smaller town like the one I live in now you're likely to fall down dead from shock if you see a person of colour (okay, slight exaggeration. I just googled and my town is 7.1% POC - 4.5% being Aboriginal. But I still felt culture shock and like I landed in white-land when I moved here.)

But I don't think you can say "Canada has less POC ergo less racial tension". And the reason that I say/know this is because where I grew up (Toronto) things were pretty smooth. I wasn't witness to people walking around scared, or angry. With the exception of my Aunt's crazy motorcycle club ex-boyfriend (hated him! why would she let him around her children?) I never heard any sort of racial slur or was witness to any crazy-ass racist behaviour.

But the town I live in now is not like that. White people say the craziest shit when they think nobody is listening, seriously. For white Canadians it seems like the less contact we have with POC the more xenophobic we get.

I presume that to be exactly the opposite of how it is in the US.

ETA - I have heard that things are pretty tense (batshit, actually) in the prairies, though. That's probably due to my "sparsely populated tiny white towns" theory. Mind you, I know NOTHING about the prairies other than that I had to drive through them to get to BC.)

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by betenoire

But I don't think you can say "Canada has less POC ergo less racial tension". And the reason that I say/know this is because where I grew up (Toronto) things were pretty smooth. I wasn't witness to people walking around scared, or angry....

But the town I live in now is not like that. White people say the craziest shit when they think nobody is listening, seriously. For white Canadians it seems like the less contact we have with POC the more xenophobic we get.

Right. Usually the greater the level of contact between ourselves and people that differ from us in some way (sexual orientation, race), the lower the discrimination. So, it makes sense to me that Toronto would have less racism and there would be more racism in an area that has a lower number of POCs.

It is actually interesting to me b/c I have always assumed that Canada was more diverse than us, and that this was the reason there is less racism. But, I guess if it is actually accurate (less racism?), it is just ANOTHER case of you guys being a rockin' place to live!

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Right. Usually the greater the level of contact between ourselves and people that differ from us in some way (sexual orientation, race), the less the discrimination. So, it makes sense to me that Toronto would have less racism and there would be more racism in an area that has a lower number of POCs.

It is actually interesting to me b/c I have always assumed that Canada was more diverse than us, and that this was the reason there is less racism. But, I guess if it is actually accurate (less racism?), it is just ANOTHER case of you guys being a rockin' place to live!

I think that your average small-town Canadian is probably just as likely to have racist ideas as your average small-town American. The difference (and that's a cultural difference between our two countries) is how that Canadian acts about it v how that American acts about it.

True Story: I had never seen a Confederate Flag in real life (seriously!!) until last summer in Detroit. I managed to get through 33 years of life without ever seeing one.

Another thing I've noticed is that people here are less likely to say something negatively racist (not that there is positive racism, I just don't know how to phrase it) and more likely to spout off a stereotype that they think is a compliment. You know "Such and Such a group is so intelligent!" "Such and Such a group has such a good head for business!". It's still racist, of course. But we spin it differently. (ETA - which is probably a big part of the perception that Canada is less racist. I have no idea if that's true or not, because there's no real way to quantify that. I think that there IS less tension and less evidence of it - but as for how people actually feel in secret in their own homes, I can't speak to that)

OMG Series Finale of Big Love is on now! Gotta go!

[undone]

It is sad that it happened to a couple in love trying to plan a very happy very special day to be celebrated and of course think the shop owner should be ashamed of themselves. I also think that the couple in question ought to be relived that it came up in the beginning, for a few reasons first of course that it was not something found out at the time of service and then had an uncomfortable situation then and there, but also that they were not spending hard earned cash with some one with what I would consider to be a narrow mind, I would rather my money perhaps stay with some one more like minded to my self a business that did not have such "values" or judgments.

I have seen in the last 5 years similar incidents in the Seattle area, where a couple was forced to leave I believe a major football or baseball game, the reason was because they had shared a kiss I think it was just a short kiss if I remember correctly. There is a casino in the same area that was notorious for escorting same sex couples out of the establishment as well for no particular reason.

But similarly was it 5 years ago one of the two big names for the Philly steak and cheese sandwiches did refuse service to a customer because they would not order in English. Said he was not required to maintain staff that had spoke in various languages, he was proud to live and work in the US, this was in the city of Philadelphia.

Yes it is a sad thing to contemplate and why it should concern anyone else about the reasons or goings on of a privet event just that they were asked to help decorate something, however would we also say the same thing about those that control things such as air travel, boarder patrols banking, or other businesses that root out criminal activities.

I would not want to share my paycheck in paying for any service including the government that felt they were able to judge me and the people I share my life with. I originally thought yes of course a person should chose whom they provide a service to because everything business or not on some level is personal, but then I read atlasthome's post and it opened that dirty box that made me remember that it is not just about same sex relationships it about all the was we separate and label people white, black, brown, gay, femme, queer, bi, butch, tree hugger, liberal, conservative... It would have to encompass all of it. So I have been forced to reconsidered my original reaction and thoughts.

I have to say that no it is not okay, because we can not trust that some one would not extend it to mean they can say your shoes are offensive to me because they have sparkles on them or don’t have laces in them (yhep I mean this to be trivial) they would easily hide the personal reasoning's behind the legally allowed ones, switching one as an excuse for the other.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

From a legal perspective- also depending on laws/regs within municipal/state/federal boundaries and jurisdictions, this could vary. In some instances, a business owner can refuse service legally.

But it sure can take on some personal issues- June's example states this.

There are "service refusal" laws for example, having to do with public health- like no service in restaurants without shoes and shirts. But, historically, racial segregation has played a role in in the US about this issue. I'd have to be stupid to think that some of those "service refusal" signs in businesses have been or are not directed at not serving POC.

I certainly still see "We refuse the right to refuse service to anyone" signs all over in businesses. Probably because of my age and being an activist during the late 60's and 70's, my response to these signs is different than for a lot of younger people. I immediately see race/ethnicity variable when I see these signs. I do not get these "vibes" if a sign simply points to the health regs about shirts and shoes. I also know that there are laws/regs in some places in which it is illegal to post the "We refuse the right to refuse service to anyone" sign. The "anyone" is the problem.

Another thought- I know that I could have subjected to legal action (as well as licensure infractions) if I had refused to see patients for psychotherapy based upon their religious beliefs.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by betenoire

The question of demographics in Canada is difficult to answer because for some reason the government does not consider Aboriginal people to be POC. (I bet there are no Inuit, for example, who consider themselves white, though. So the whole thing makes absolutely no sense.) So this means that whenever you look at demographics in Canada the breakdown always includes First Nations people in with the Caucasian group.

So I googled around and found that in 2006 3.8% of the population is Aboriginal (First Nations, Inuit, Metis)

16.20% of the total population (according to the 2006 census) is a "visible minority". If you include Native people in with that it's exactly 20%. Breakdown:

Whitey - 80.0%
South Asian - 4.0%
Aboriginal - 3.8%
Chinese - 3.7%
Black - 2.5%
Filipino - 1.3%
Latin American - 1.0%
Arab - 0.9%
Southeast Asian - 0.7%
West Asian - 0.5%
Korean - 0.4%
Japanese - 0.2%
Multiple visible minorities - 0.3%
Visible minority, n.i.e. - 0.2%

I have no idea what "Visible minority, n.i.e." is. No idea.

Anyway, I don't know how things spread out in the US but you'll also find that what Canada looks like is REALLY different between our large cities and small towns. I know Toronto is a solid 50/50 split (like 50 percent of Torontonians are POC 50 percent are white - roughly. But this depends on the neighborhood, Scarborough for example was 68% POC in 2006 ) but if you go to a smaller town like the one I live in now you're likely to fall down dead from shock if you see a person of colour (okay, slight exaggeration. I just googled and my town is 7.1% POC - 4.5% being Aboriginal. But I still felt culture shock and like I landed in white-land when I moved here.)

But I don't think you can say "Canada has less POC ergo less racial tension". And the reason that I say/know this is because where I grew up (Toronto) things were pretty smooth. I wasn't witness to people walking around scared, or angry. With the exception of my Aunt's crazy motorcycle club ex-boyfriend (hated him! why would she let him around her children?) I never heard any sort of racial slur or was witness to any crazy-ass racist behaviour.

But the town I live in now is not like that. White people say the craziest shit when they think nobody is listening, seriously. For white Canadians it seems like the less contact we have with POC the more xenophobic we get.

I presume that to be exactly the opposite of how it is in the US.

ETA - I have heard that things are pretty tense (batshit, actually) in the prairies, though. That's probably due to my "sparsely populated tiny white towns" theory. Mind you, I know NOTHING about the prairies other than that I had to drive through them to get to BC.)

Thanks- helps!

In terms of what Suebee brought up- the never ending conflict just under the surface (which I believe exists in the US), I have to think about other political structures and differences. Also, immigration issues in the US, especially in times of economic stress, lights up racial and ethnic bigotry. That would be another area that I just don't have knowledge about in relationship to Canada.

Our recent Supreme court ruling allowing corporations to in effect stuff the pockets of politicians/legislation as individuals has brought the tensions here to a new level, I think.

This brings the US "individualism" paradigm right to front lines.

Something else- do Canadians feel that their middle class is being kicked to the curb?

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Also, immigration issues in the US, especially in times of economic stress, lights up racial and ethnic bigotry. That would be another area that I just don't have knowledge about in relationship to Canada.

What immigration issues in the US are you talking about specifically? Let me know and I'll tell you how it is in Canada re: that same coin.

ETA - I dunno how true this is but I once read that Canada has the highest immigration rate (like per capita, not in raw numbers of actual people immigrating) than any other country in the world. Our population is roughly 30,000,000 and we get on average 250,000 new immigrants to Canada every year.

Also if you are talking about undocumented immigration - I know nothing about that here. I would presume it happens in Canada (because I'm sure every country has people who immigrate without "papers") but we don't talk/bitch about it. So that's a non-issue.