Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)

I concur....and prefer to think of us as a nice salad...lots of different flavors, all tossed together. Much better as far as I'm concerned.

[betenoire]

We need a "well-meaning phrases/words that rub us the wrong way" thread

Originally Posted by JustJo

promote "tolerance" (I hate that word)

Exactly. Doesn't "tolerance" basically mean "I put up with but don't understand, embrace, or even actually like _____" ?

Originally Posted by JustJo

I concur....and prefer to think of us as a nice salad...lots of different flavors, all tossed together. Much better as far as I'm concerned.

I like Mosaic. It's pretty and you don't have to eat it.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by betenoire

On topic. Anybody who opposes the building of this community centre has some -serious- self-examination to do.

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)

More off topic. I so dig that the Holy Trilogy got dragged into this discussion. Some of you people are such giant nerds it makes me want to lick your eyeballs.

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.

Melting pot via its traditional definition is poopy. For me, it has always meant something different, even opposing because I see the lead pot to be the impermeable holder of customs and traditions of various cultures. Just how my first generation mind works.

I want a burger....

[Toughy]

I want a green chile cheeseburger (the best in the world) from a local dive burger joint known as Dave's in Santa Fe NM.........if it's still open.......if not then I want the green chile cheeseburger from The Tecolate Bar in San Antonio NM (it's south of Albuquerque and birth home to Conrad Hilton and has a population of about 200 on a good day)......I so miss NM green chiles and the smell of them roasting.......

wait this is not a burger thread..........sorry........

[dreadgeek]

From Talkingpointsmemo.com:


"It seems the anti-mosque protesters in California have torn a few pages from the Abu Ghraib field manual. Protesters of a planned mosque and Muslim community center in Riverside, California are calling on locals to come to a rally outside an existing mosque with their pet dogs because, as the protest organizer says, Muslims "hate dogs." "We will not be submissive," the notice proclaimed. "Our voices are going to be heard!" The alert went on to question what its authors described as Islamic beliefs. It suggested that participants sing during the rally because Muslim "women are forbidden to sing." It suggested that rally participants bring dogs because Muslims "hate dogs.""

The idea of preserving a memorial to the people who died at the WTC is a smokescreen and a convenient excuse. This is really about *Muslims* integrating into the community--nothing more, nothing less.

Cheers
Aj

[Soon]

The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House

From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you.


When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero.

Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero.

Clyde Haberman of the New York Times further explains the significance:

There's that "at." For a two-letter word, it packs quite a wallop. It has been tossed around in a manner both cavalier and disingenuous, with an intention by some to inflame passions. Nobody, regardless of political leanings, would tolerate a mosque at ground zero. "Near" is not the same, as anyone who paid attention back in the fourth grade should know.

I understand the journalist's impulse to use the "Ground Zero Mosque" shorthand to instantly remind readers why they should care about the story. Headlines leave out qualifiers like "near" all the time for brevity's sake. But in this case the elision is critical; leaving out the "near" clearly takes sides -- against the "mosque" and against accuracy.

In addition, the building planned for 45 Park Place is a cultural center with a prayer room -- not a single-purpose house of worship for Muslims, which is probably what we should reserve the word "mosque" for. As Haberman also explains, "That it may even be called a mosque is debatable. It is designed as a multi-use complex with a space set aside for prayer -- no minarets, no muezzin calls to prayer blaring onto Park Place."

The 92nd Street Y, on which the Cordoba House is explicitly modeled, has a whole host of Jewish events take place inside of it, but no one calls it a synagogue. There's no good reason why Cordoba House should be misleadingly called a "mosque." I've been guilty of using this word too, in conversation and in writing, but it's inaccurate. Muslims already read the Quran and pray at 45 Park Place, but that does not and will not turn it into a "mosque."

There's one more catch for the opponents of the so-called Ground Zero mosque: by the same logical leap you can call the Cordoba Center a "mosque," you can also call Ground Zero as it already exists a giant, open-air mosque. Muslim prayers are already taking place right on the edge of the construction site, and not for world domination. Families are going there to pray -- for the souls of the dozens of innocent Muslim victims who died on September 11.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-s..._b_660585.html

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House

From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you.


When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero.

Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero.

Clyde Haberman of the New York Times further explains the significance:

There's that "at." For a two-letter word, it packs quite a wallop. It has been tossed around in a manner both cavalier and disingenuous, with an intention by some to inflame passions. Nobody, regardless of political leanings, would tolerate a mosque at ground zero. "Near" is not the same, as anyone who paid attention back in the fourth grade should know.

I understand the journalist's impulse to use the "Ground Zero Mosque" shorthand to instantly remind readers why they should care about the story. Headlines leave out qualifiers like "near" all the time for brevity's sake. But in this case the elision is critical; leaving out the "near" clearly takes sides -- against the "mosque" and against accuracy.

In addition, the building planned for 45 Park Place is a cultural center with a prayer room -- not a single-purpose house of worship for Muslims, which is probably what we should reserve the word "mosque" for. As Haberman also explains, "That it may even be called a mosque is debatable. It is designed as a multi-use complex with a space set aside for prayer -- no minarets, no muezzin calls to prayer blaring onto Park Place."

The 92nd Street Y, on which the Cordoba House is explicitly modeled, has a whole host of Jewish events take place inside of it, but no one calls it a synagogue. There's no good reason why Cordoba House should be misleadingly called a "mosque." I've been guilty of using this word too, in conversation and in writing, but it's inaccurate. Muslims already read the Quran and pray at 45 Park Place, but that does not and will not turn it into a "mosque."

There's one more catch for the opponents of the so-called Ground Zero mosque: by the same logical leap you can call the Cordoba Center a "mosque," you can also call Ground Zero as it already exists a giant, open-air mosque. Muslim prayers are already taking place right on the edge of the construction site, and not for world domination. Families are going there to pray -- for the souls of the dozens of innocent Muslim victims who died on September 11.

So, I guess it is some kind of crime for Muslims to pray for their own lost souls? Oh, they are all terrorists, I forgot....



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-s..._b_660585.html

THANK YOU!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

From that article:

Those protesting the California construction site include the pastor of a neighboring Baptist church who recently told the Los Angeles Times he was upset about the construction plan because the mosque and community center will turn the town into "a haven for Islamic extremists."

AJ - Some days, I just want to put you on ignore for making me read this stuff, which causes me to (further) lose hope in the future.

Oh, how I hear you! And everytime Msdemeanor posts her same planet feeling, I am oh, so with her!

[MsTinkerbelly]

Obama makes clear support for ground zero mosque

By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writer Erica Werner, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 2 mins ago
WASHINGTON – After skirting the controversy for weeks, President Barack Obama is weighing in forcefully on the mosque near ground zero, saying a nation built on religious freedom must allow it.

"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," Obama told an intently listening crowd gathered at the White House Friday evening to observe the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."

The White House had not previously taken a stand on the mosque, which would be part of a $100 million Islamic community center two blocks from where nearly 3,000 people perished when hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. Press secretary Robert Gibbs had insisted it was a local matter.

It was already much more than that, sparking debate around the country as top Republicans including Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich announced their opposition. So did the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish civil rights group.

Obama elevated it to a presidential issue Friday without equivocation.

While insisting that the place where the twin towers once stood was indeed "hallowed ground," Obama said that the proper way to honor it was to apply American values.

Harkening back to earlier times when the building of synagogues or Catholic churches also met with opposition, Obama said: "Time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, and stay true to our core values and emerge stronger for it. So it must be and will be today."

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, an independent who has been a strong supporter of the mosque, welcomed Obama's words as a "clarion defense of the freedom of religion."

But some victims' advocates and Republicans were quick to pounce.

"Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," said Debra Burlingame, a spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks.

Building the mosque at ground zero, she said, "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah."

Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son was killed at the World Trade Center, said the president had failed to understand the issue. "As an Obama supporter, I really feel that he's lost sight of the germane issue, which is not about freedom of religion," she said. "It's about a gross lack of sensitivity to the 9/11 families and to the people who were lost."

Added Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y.: "President Obama is wrong. It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero."

Entering the highly charged election-year debate, Obama surely knew that his words would not only make headlines in the U.S. but be heard by Muslims worldwide. The president has made it a point to reach out to the global Muslim community, and the over 100 guests at Friday's dinner in the State Dining Room included ambassadors and officials from numerous nations where Islam is observed, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

While his pronouncement concerning the mosque might find favor in the Muslim world, Obama's stance runs counter to the opinions of the majority of Americans, according to polls.

Opponents, including some Sept. 11 victims' relatives, see the prospect of a mosque so near the destroyed trade center as an insult to the memory of those killed by Islamic terrorists in the 2001 attacks

[Stearns]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

Obama makes clear support for ground zero mosque

By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writer Erica Werner, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 2 mins ago
WASHINGTON – After skirting the controversy for weeks, President Barack Obama is weighing in forcefully on the mosque near ground zero, saying a nation built on religious freedom must allow it.

"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," Obama told an intently listening crowd gathered at the White House Friday evening to observe the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."

The White House had not previously taken a stand on the mosque, which would be part of a $100 million Islamic community center two blocks from where nearly 3,000 people perished when hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. Press secretary Robert Gibbs had insisted it was a local matter.

It was already much more than that, sparking debate around the country as top Republicans including Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich announced their opposition. So did the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish civil rights group.

Obama elevated it to a presidential issue Friday without equivocation.

While insisting that the place where the twin towers once stood was indeed "hallowed ground," Obama said that the proper way to honor it was to apply American values.

Harkening back to earlier times when the building of synagogues or Catholic churches also met with opposition, Obama said: "Time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, and stay true to our core values and emerge stronger for it. So it must be and will be today."

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, an independent who has been a strong supporter of the mosque, welcomed Obama's words as a "clarion defense of the freedom of religion."

But some victims' advocates and Republicans were quick to pounce.

"Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," said Debra Burlingame, a spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks.

Building the mosque at ground zero, she said, "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah."

Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son was killed at the World Trade Center, said the president had failed to understand the issue. "As an Obama supporter, I really feel that he's lost sight of the germane issue, which is not about freedom of religion," she said. "It's about a gross lack of sensitivity to the 9/11 families and to the people who were lost."

Added Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y.: "President Obama is wrong. It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero."

Entering the highly charged election-year debate, Obama surely knew that his words would not only make headlines in the U.S. but be heard by Muslims worldwide. The president has made it a point to reach out to the global Muslim community, and the over 100 guests at Friday's dinner in the State Dining Room included ambassadors and officials from numerous nations where Islam is observed, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

While his pronouncement concerning the mosque might find favor in the Muslim world, Obama's stance runs counter to the opinions of the majority of Americans, according to polls.

Opponents, including some Sept. 11 victims' relatives, see the prospect of a mosque so near the destroyed trade center as an insult to the memory of those killed by Islamic terrorists in the 2001 attacks

Aside: Gee, I wish Obama would express this kind of conviction for LGBT rights. I'd love to hear him say, "This is America, and our commitment to equal rights must be unshakable."

[Stearns]

Originally Posted by June

From that article:

Those protesting the California construction site include the pastor of a neighboring Baptist church who recently told the Los Angeles Times he was upset about the construction plan because the mosque and community center will turn the town into "a haven for Islamic extremists."

AJ - Some days, I just want to put you on ignore for making me read this stuff, which causes me to (further) lose hope in the future.

Frankly, it offends me that so many Protestant churches are producers of and havens for 'Christian' extremists. And get tax-exempt status to boot.

[Laerkin]

Everything I have to say has already been said...from the number of Muslims killed in the terrorists attacks to the importance of recognizing that a group of extremists in no way represent the one billion people that are Muslim.

I'm all for the new community center and I would be totally happy to check it out after it's been built. The more we educate, the more we eradicate hatred and ignorance.

[lipstixgal]

I have no problem with the Muslim community building a Mosque I have many Muslim friends at school and we are good friends so as a Jew I see no harm done. In fact I would like to visit it once its built to see it!

[Corkey]

Here is where I have a hard time with all of this. It is just fine to build a church, or a synagog. It is however not so good to build a mosque. I know we all remember that these 3 religions come from the same book, different chapters, but still same book.
If the people of this book can't agree on if they are brothers and sisters under their same God, then why should I who doesn't believe in their God have any reason to think they are sane?
The Muslims under the Constitution have every right to build a mosque where ever the permit permits.
Christians need to get over themselves.
Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I wish your Christians were more like him."

[Gayla]

I said something to Di this morning about how maybe if the media stopped calling it the "ground zero mosque" it would stop being such a huge freaking deal. I mean really? How many people are going to complain about having another swimming pool to go play in?

Yes, simplistic at it's best, but taking the sensationalism out of it, and looking at what it really is, there should be no controversy at all.

[AtLast]

So glad that Obama spoke to this in terms of constitutional guarantees!

I am begining to think that there is a whole lot of constitutional ignornace in the US and it makes me sick. An informed electorate, we are not! This is very dangerous.

[MsDemeanor]

If this country is going to start banning mosques, that's fine. Just make sure that we also quit building churches and synagogues and any other houses of worship. While we're at it, let's quit building religion-based hospitals and schools and businesses. And then let's tax the fuck out of all the existing ones, tax them to the point where they have to sell off all their property. Let's just get rid of every last one of them.

[JustJo]

Here's a link to a wonderful op-ed piece in the NY Times about the Sufis...wish it was required reading for everyone in this country.

[lipstixgal]

I don't have anything against it..in fact I have Muslim friends and they are very nice to me and I'm a Jew by choice so I think that everyone should have the right to practice their religion no matter who they are..

Jo the piece you have in your link was very nice I enjoyed!!

[afixer]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.

this is the truth.


this is worth repeating.

After the number of Americans killed by it,
I cannot abide by such a disrespectful act of building a McDonald's so close to the WTC!