UN General Assembly: Summary execution of queers okay

[dreadgeek]

Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people were once again subject to the whims of homophobia and religious and cultural extremism this week, thanks to a United Nations vote that removed “sexual orientation” from a resolution that protects people from arbitrary executions. In other words, the UN General Assembly this week voted to allow LGBT people to be executed without cause.

According to the International Gay and Lesbians Human Rights Commission, the UN General Assembly’s Third Committee on Social, Cultural and Humanitarian issues removed “sexual orientation” from a resolution addressing extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions this past week in a vote that was overwhelming represented by a majority of African, Middle East and Carribean nations. For a UN committee that addresses human rights questions that affect people all over the world, by removing protections for LGBT persons from a category of arbitrary executions, belies the objective and purpose of a committee whose focus this year is “on the examination of human rights questions,” according to its website.

Whole article here

I think that any and all discussions of cultural relativism should be filtered through the above. Imagine, if you will, that you are an Ugandan queer. Which do you think would be more important to you, the cultural integrity of your nation (e.g. if the way they interpret Christianity is that queers should be killed, that's the culture) or your right to exist? Can we all, at minimum, agree that whatever we might think of the death penalty as punishment for crime (not a discussion I want to have right now) that people should not be subject to summary execution merely for being queer?

What's more, we cannot look to the West or the North or the First World as the problem here. The arguments made by the nation's themselves are that homosexuality is a violation of their local culture or an imposition of the West. Neither colonialism nor imperialism can explain this. This one has to be laid, firmly, at the feet of the nations that voted in favor of executing queer people.

Cheers
Aj

[katsarecool]

Absolutely!!!! How many people are suffering and dying because of this insanity? I shudder to think about it and how backward and mean spirited they are.

I am not a Christian. But I do believe there was a good good man ( a legend) who walked this earth and was kind to the downtrodden. I would think Jesus if he were to be walking around at the present time would have a lot of things to say to so called Christians and what horrible things they are doing in his name.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people were once again subject to the whims of homophobia and religious and cultural extremism this week, thanks to a United Nations vote that removed “sexual orientation” from a resolution that protects people from arbitrary executions. In other words, the UN General Assembly this week voted to allow LGBT people to be executed without cause.

According to the International Gay and Lesbians Human Rights Commission, the UN General Assembly’s Third Committee on Social, Cultural and Humanitarian issues removed “sexual orientation” from a resolution addressing extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions this past week in a vote that was overwhelming represented by a majority of African, Middle East and Carribean nations. For a UN committee that addresses human rights questions that affect people all over the world, by removing protections for LGBT persons from a category of arbitrary executions, belies the objective and purpose of a committee whose focus this year is “on the examination of human rights questions,” according to its website.

Whole article here

I think that any and all discussions of cultural relativism should be filtered through the above. Imagine, if you will, that you are an Ugandan queer. Which do you think would be more important to you, the cultural integrity of your nation (e.g. if the way they interpret Christianity is that queers should be killed, that's the culture) or your right to exist? Can we all, at minimum, agree that whatever we might think of the death penalty as punishment for crime (not a discussion I want to have right now) that people should not be subject to summary execution merely for being queer?

What's more, we cannot look to the West or the North or the First World as the problem here. The arguments made by the nation's themselves are that homosexuality is a violation of their local culture or an imposition of the West. Neither colonialism nor imperialism can explain this. This one has to be laid, firmly, at the feet of the nations that voted in favor of executing queer people.

Cheers
Aj

Yes, this would be where I have to kick cultural relatism to the curb (actually have some other areas in which I feel this way). I think your putting this at the feet of these nations is right on.

This is so very disturbing. Things like "without cause" or "at will" (such as in employment contracts) really mean "without rights" as far as I am concerned.

Now, given the how far the obsessional right-wing religious fanatics have worked their way into US culture at large (can only speak from this vantage point, but know others can from other countries), I see this as something they will use as further rationalization of their bigotry, fear and hatred of queer communities to romove any and all of the legal gains (though certainly not enough) that have been fought for for decades by activists.

I read this and see so much more loss for us in the future if we don't get a handle on just how serious this is and build coalitions politically and align as one unified force. This is from the United Nations!!

[Apocalipstic]

I think the United States of America has no credibility when we have gone against the UN on wars, secret prisons, breaking of the Geneva Convention, torture and not paying our dues. Not to mention thinking we run the world.

Many countries see this behavior of torture, wars for no reason and secret prisons as worse than executing queers.

I am very sad to see this happen, but not surprised.

And sosososososososo thankful that I do not live in Uganda.

For the US to have any sway over the UN, we have a ton of work to do as a nation, to regain ANY credibility.

[Julie]

I am pretty blown away by this. I had no idea, until I read your posting and read the Reuters reporting.

I work for a NGO UN organization. I am really upset. I am not sure how I am supposed to ever step foot into the UN again.

I have just written my director and am composing letters to those I know at the UN. Not that it will do any good...
Except to sign my name - This could be me! This could happen to ME!
WTF?

[Jet]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

.... in a vote that was overwhelming represented by a majority of African, Middle East and Carribean nations.
Aj

doesn't surprise me a bit. they're fuckin' maniacs.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by InfiniteFemme

I am pretty blown away by this. I had no idea, until I read your posting and read the Reuters reporting.

I work for a NGO UN organization. I am really upset. I am not sure how I am supposed to ever step foot into the UN again.I have just written my director and am composing letters to those I know at the UN. Not that it will do any good...
Except to sign my name - This could be me! This could happen to ME!
WTF?

Amazing... and goes directly to what this really means! Not just something "out there" happening to other people! If you can, let us know what response, if any, you receive.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I think the United States of America has no credibility when we have gone against the UN on wars, secret prisons, breaking of the Geneva Convention, torture and not paying our dues. Not to mention thinking we run the world.

Many countries see this behavior of torture, wars for no reason and secret prisons as worse than executing queers.

I am very sad to see this happen, but not surprised.

And sosososososososo thankful that I do not live in Uganda.

For the US to have any sway over the UN, we have a ton of work to do as a nation, to regain ANY credibility.

I'm sure that many nations do see it that way. I'm sure that there are plenty of nations--all the ones that voted to remove sexual orientation--that do not see any moral problem with execution of queers. I'm not talking about this from the point of view of "we're so great, they're so horrible". I'm talking about this from the point of view of *regardless* of our behavior, certain things are morally repugnant. Summary execution of people because they are different has got to be at the top of that list.

Was our invasion of Iraq justified? No. Does that mean that somehow, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was justified--even in a post hoc fashion? No, because wars of aggression are immoral--not because the United States does them but because anyone does them. I'm not surprised by this and you know I'm not a jingoistic, "America uber alles" but we in the West have *got* to get things back on an even ethical keel.

If the United States were, in fact, a Rawlsian utopia, acknowledged by all people as a place where unfairness cannot even be contemplated much less actually practiced it would not change the fact that this action at the UN is unjustifiable and an invitation to commit crimes against humanity. If the United States were no more advanced than it was in, say, 1900 this would still hold. The horrors visited upon Europe by the Germans and China and Korea by the Japanese during WWII were not diminished one bit by racial segregation in the United States. Were we right with our own people? Not by even the most generous definition but that doesn't mean that what the Germans or Japanese did was at all mitigated by our own not being right.

We, as Americans, exhibit a callousness to the plight of others every time we utter the words "well, we do this here so who are we to say that it's wrong when they do that there". I am willing to bet that every person living in a nation where the state kills queers would prefer to be someplace that doesn't happen--either there or here. We cannot wait for perfect justice to obtain here before we can be justified to be outraged at injustice someplace else. Firstly, it means that we will turn a consistent blind eye to injustice elsewhere and secondly, every excuse we make undercuts the moral force of our argument here.

If I could change one thing about where liberalism has gone these last 30 years it would be this: we lost sight of the fact that we were involved in a struggle that was not just political but moral. The movement for queer civil rights is a moral struggle with political dimensions, not a political struggle with an ancillary moral dimension. Because a queer in Uganda can be killed for being queer, I am Ugandan. Because a dissident in China can be imprisoned for speaking out against the government, I am Chinese. Because a journalist in Russia who writes an unfavorable story can be assassinated, I am Russian. Because an Afghani can be blown to bits by a drone, I am Afghani. Because an Egyptian can be killed for starting a political party, I am Egyptian. Wherever injustice is done and I am aware of it, I must stand up and be counted as being in the court of justice and not in the host of injustice. I must not make excuses for injustice there because of injustice here.

No nation, really, has credibility by the standards you mention above. Israel doesn't. The United Kingdom doesn't. France doesn't. Nor does Spain. Canada doesn't. Germany doesn't. Russia most certainly doesn't. Iran? nope. China? Not hardly. Pakistan? Not in the least bit. India? Nope. I suppose maybe Iceland or Greenland might but that's probably because I can't think of anything either nation has done recently.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by InfiniteFemme

I am pretty blown away by this. I had no idea, until I read your posting and read the Reuters reporting.

I work for a NGO UN organization. I am really upset. I am not sure how I am supposed to ever step foot into the UN again.

I have just written my director and am composing letters to those I know at the UN. Not that it will do any good...
Except to sign my name - This could be me! This could happen to ME!
WTF?

Did the USA actually vote for it?

Look at the things the US has done to many of the nations who voted against it. For 100's of years. Why should they respect our opinions?

We need to lead by example and make sure our allies are there for voting!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Jet

doesn't surprise me a bit. they're fuckin' maniacs.

But who made them maniacs? if indeed this is true.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'm sure that many nations do see it that way. I'm sure that there are plenty of nations--all the ones that voted to remove sexual orientation--that do not see any moral problem with execution of queers. I'm not talking about this from the point of view of "we're so great, they're so horrible". I'm talking about this from the point of view of *regardless* of our behavior, certain things are morally repugnant. Summary execution of people because they are different has got to be at the top of that list.

Was our invasion of Iraq justified? No. Does that mean that somehow, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was justified--even in a post hoc fashion? No, because wars of aggression are immoral--not because the United States does them but because anyone does them. I'm not surprised by this and you know I'm not a jingoistic, "America uber alles" but we in the West have *got* to get things back on an even ethical keel.

If the United States were, in fact, a Rawlsian utopia, acknowledged by all people as a place where unfairness cannot even be contemplated much less actually practiced it would not change the fact that this action at the UN is unjustifiable and an invitation to commit crimes against humanity. If the United States were no more advanced than it was in, say, 1900 this would still hold. The horrors visited upon Europe by the Germans and China and Korea by the Japanese during WWII were not diminished one bit by racial segregation in the United States. Were we right with our own people? Not by even the most generous definition but that doesn't mean that what the Germans or Japanese did was at all mitigated by our own not being right.

We, as Americans, exhibit a callousness to the plight of others every time we utter the words "well, we do this here so who are we to say that it's wrong when they do that there". I am willing to bet that every person living in a nation where the state kills queers would prefer to be someplace that doesn't happen--either there or here. We cannot wait for perfect justice to obtain here before we can be justified to be outraged at injustice someplace else. Firstly, it means that we will turn a consistent blind eye to injustice elsewhere and secondly, every excuse we make undercuts the moral force of our argument here.

If I could change one thing about where liberalism has gone these last 30 years it would be this: we lost sight of the fact that we were involved in a struggle that was not just political but moral. The movement for queer civil rights is a moral struggle with political dimensions, not a political struggle with an ancillary moral dimension. Because a queer in Uganda can be killed for being queer, I am Ugandan. Because a dissident in China can be imprisoned for speaking out against the government, I am Chinese. Because a journalist in Russia who writes an unfavorable story can be assassinated, I am Russian. Because an Afghani can be blown to bits by a drone, I am Afghani. Because an Egyptian can be killed for starting a political party, I am Egyptian. Wherever injustice is done and I am aware of it, I must stand up and be counted as being in the court of justice and not in the host of injustice. I must not make excuses for injustice there because of injustice here.

No nation, really, has credibility by the standards you mention above. Israel doesn't. The United Kingdom doesn't. France doesn't. Nor does Spain. Canada doesn't. Germany doesn't. Russia most certainly doesn't. Iran? nope. China? Not hardly. Pakistan? Not in the least bit. India? Nope. I suppose maybe Iceland or Greenland might but that's probably because I can't think of anything either nation has done recently.

Cheers
Aj

I agree with you. It is repugnant. I am horrified.

This is a "yes...and"...answer

I just think that if we as voters stood on our government to respect and follow UN rulings no matter who our President is and if we were not as creepy as we are, and if we did not have a huge hand in the sad state many of the countries who voted for this horrible injustice are in, maybe the US would have had more sway with the voting Nations.

I hate it that this is going on, I hate the shape our own country is in. I grew up in a Fascist country and almost throw up every time I hear on this website "well thats what North Korea does" when discussing what is right and wrong...morally.

I guess I hate it most that my own country is not doing more, and that we have zero high ground clout to be able to say "executing ANYONE is morally wrong".

I want us to have never lied to the UN, to have made the original League of Nations work....etc etc. I know, I am too idealistic.

In conclusion I blame the US and the UK and France and Holland and the countries who in colonizing and making war for personal gain left and are leaving these countries looking for someone to blame for their problems. Queers are an easy target.

Who do we blame for ours?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Did the USA actually vote for it?

Look at the things the US has done to many of the nations who voted against it. For 100's of years. Why should they respect our opinions?

We need to lead by example and make sure our allies are there for voting!

It shouldn't matter what our opinions are on the matter. Each delegate, at the behest of and full knowledge of their foreign minister and head of government and/or head of state cast this vote themselves. They cast a vote knowing what they were voting for. They cast this vote knowing the implications and their national motivations for doing so. They cast a vote to remove queers from the umbrella of protection so that they need not worry about AI or the IRC or the UN looking for their shoulders should they decide to undertake an orgy of violence against queers in their nation. The United States didn't make them take that vote.

These are full moral agents from nations that are capable of acting as full moral agents. NOTHING we could ever say or do would make their vote okay in my book. Nothing. if we were bombing their nations randomly because it was Monday their vote would be immoral. If we yearly sent each nation our GDP as foreign aid, their vote would STILL be immoral. If we pretended that they didn't exist at all, their vote would remain immoral.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

It shouldn't matter what our opinions are on the matter. Each delegate, at the behest of and full knowledge of their foreign minister and head of government and/or head of state cast this vote themselves. They cast a vote knowing what they were voting for. They cast this vote knowing the implications and their national motivations for doing so. They cast a vote to remove queers from the umbrella of protection so that they need not worry about AI or the IRC or the UN looking for their shoulders should they decide to undertake an orgy of violence against queers in their nation. The United States didn't make them take that vote.

These are full moral agents from nations that are capable of acting as full moral agents. NOTHING we could ever say or do would make their vote okay in my book. Nothing. if we were bombing their nations randomly because it was Monday their vote would be immoral. If we yearly sent each nation our GDP as foreign aid, their vote would STILL be immoral. If we pretended that they didn't exist at all, their vote would remain immoral.

Cheers
Aj

I agree. It is horrible and imoral.

I just dont know how writing angry letters to US delegates is going to help anything.

[Apocalipstic]

I believe morally that executing anyone is wrong.

Anyone.

Ever.

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Did the USA actually vote for it?

Look at the things the US has done to many of the nations who voted against it. For 100's of years. Why should they respect our opinions?

We need to lead by example and make sure our allies are there for voting!

I thought I heard Hilary say that we with held our vote near the end. I just don't understand what the point is of a UN if everyone does'nt have to vote, or is too afraid to. Where was everyone else?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

I thought I heard Hilary say that we with held our vote near the end. I just don't understand what the point is of a UN if everyone does'nt have to vote, or is too afraid to. Where was everyone else?

We could ask the same of our Congress or of each of us. Where was everyone when it came time to vote?

I need to read up on when we voted and if we held off till the end...why.

Like anything else this is political and for some it is easier to not have an opinion, lest they be seen as Queer or liberal or something equally shocking. For some, it was not an important vote. Some may have passive agressively been trying to send the US a message to leave them alone.

The only way the UN was ever going to work the way we think it is supposed to, was for the US and the rest of the Security Council follow the rules and pay the dues and we have not. I think it was doomed to ever be what I want it to be when the League of Nations was shot down by Congress for sheer political reasons all those years ago.


I have a question. Why is our problem just with Queers being executed?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I have a question. Why is our problem just with Queers being executed?

I am just quoting this part of your post, because it really put my stomach in knots.

I love the term Queer. While I identify as a Femme... I am also Queer.
Something about the way it is stated, makes me sad.

As I just explained on the phone to people I work with -- It is about PEOPLE. We should be concerned with Female Stoning and Female Circumcision, among the other atrocities going on in the world.

BUT THIS... Right now. There are PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS who are imprisoned in countries, such as Uganda - who have been on a "stay of execution." They no longer have protection. Tomorrow, they can be executed without the protection or investigation. This is HUGE.

I have contacts in many of these third world countries. I am concerned for them and those that I do not know. We are concerned, because OUR LGBTQ brothers and sisters will be executed.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by InfiniteFemme

I am just quoting this part of your post, because it really put my stomach in knots.

I love the term Queer. While I identify as a Femme... I am also Queer.
Something about the way it is stated, makes me sad.

As I just explained on the phone to people I work with -- It is about PEOPLE. We should be concerned with Female Stoning and Female Circumcision, among the other atrocities going on in the world.

BUT THIS... Right now. There are PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS who are imprisoned in countries, such as Uganda - who have been on a "stay of execution." They no longer have protection. Tomorrow, they can be executed without the protection or investigation. This is HUGE.

I have contacts in many of these third world countries. I am concerned for them and those that I do not know. We are concerned, because OUR LGBTQ brothers and sisters will be executed.

I was also using Queer as an umbrella term for Gay, Lesbian, Intersexed, Butch Femme, Trans, etc.

I am horrified that anyone is EVER executed.

I grew up in a country where people dissapeared all the time never to be heard from again. I think we should be just as angry about all of it, not just people like us. Gay people sat in prison and many were executed. Dead people were in the streets.

I think we are more horrified because its is people like us who are being executed, I think we should be horrified that anyone is executed.

Yes it is horrible to me that this vote went as it did, but even more horrible to me is that there is a list of groups it is ok to execute at all.

I asked that question as a Queer Femme Lesbian, sorry my use of Queer made your stomach feel upset. All of this makes mine pretty upset too.

[Apocalipstic]

In a perfect world I would wish for the US to have the good reputation to be able to stand up and say executing anyone is morally wrong. But we can't becasue we execute people and lie to the UN and start wars for no reason.

I wish we could censure Uganda and they would have to stop this.

That there is a list of who it is OK and not ok to excute makes my head need to explode.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I was also using Queer as an umbrella term for Gay, Lesbian, Intersexed, Butch Femme, Trans, etc.

I am horrified that anyone is EVER executed.

I grew up in a country where people dissapeared all the time never to be heard from again. I think we should be just as angry about all of it, not just people like us. Gay people sat in prison and many were executed. Dead people were in the streets.

I think we are more horrified because its is people like us who are being executed, I think we should be horrified that anyone is executed.

Yes it is horrible to me that this vote went as it did, but even more horrible to me is that there is a list of groups it is ok to execute at all.

I asked that question as a Queer Femme Lesbian, sorry my use of Queer made your stomach feel upset. All of this makes mine pretty upset too.

It's probably not you at all. It is the telephone conversations I have had this past few hours about this with colleagues. Nobody knew about this. I did not know about this and I generally get all the news in my inbox.

No, I am equally angry and upset over any type of cleansing/genocide. I think it almost reminded me of the term "troops," which was coined by our government, so we would not think of them as people when we heard. 600 Troops lost today. Which in fact meant... 600 people killed.

I am not sure what I can do - I am just one little person in a big giant world. BUT... I do have a big mouth and I will use it. Just as I have for any humanitarian rights issue that has come my way.

And... I am sorry you had to experience this in your life. Truly.

Julie