Politically Charged Violence - Who's Responsible?

[Medusa]

I've been reading for the last couple of days about the tragic shooting in Arizona involving Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, Federal Judge John Roll, and 7 others.

Across the web, I am seeing lots of commentary about how the political climate in Arizona probably had a lot to do with this shooting, even if nothing more than timing. I have also read several articles replaying Sarah Palin's "SarahPAC" website "crosshairs" and "bullseye" symbol mapping which "targeted" Rep Giffords' district.

I'd like to know what folks think about the responsibility behind the shooting. Do you think that today's political climate is ripe for violence? Do you think that the vitriol created by the SarahPac map, certain political propaganda, etc. is a form of hate speech? Do you think that our first amendment rights mean that we get to incite violence even if it's in innuendo?

Thoughts?

[katsarecool]

I blame the irresponsible behavior of Palin, Beck, Engle and others like them for their words and actions. Not all the blame but the majority. Yes the guys has serious mental problems and can be held responsible for some of it. But people who are not in control of the facilties are easily influenced.

That being said, I still hold freedom of speech holy and sacred to our democracy.

Palin and others like her should be shunned. Other people need to wake up, educate themselves and not support her and the others by buying their books, watching their tv shows, etc. I blame the complacency of many Americans as well.

I know I saw Palin's Crosshairs months ago, spoke up but failed to get riled up and do something more. Something as simple as reporting her page on FB and encouraging others to do the same. Or contacting tv stations to protest the likes of Glen Beck and others. So I feel some sense of responsibility as well.

[Linus]

Do you think that today's political climate is ripe for violence? Do you think that the vitriol created by the SarahPac map, certain political propaganda, etc. is a form of hate speech? Do you think that our first amendment rights mean that we get to incite violence even if it's in innuendo?

I think that the climate is ripe for this kind of thing and I don't think that the 1st Amendment should allow. The USSC (US Supreme Court), IIRC (1919, Schneck vs US), has stated that falsely yelling "fire" in a theater isn't necessarily free speech. To that end, it suggests that we must be aware of the implications of our actions and the reactions that may happen as a result. It is one of the things that I miss in Canada and that is laws that doesn't allow for the promotion of hatred that could lead to violence (this is also tied with Holocaust denying being illegal).

Palin's target map isn't a first. The Democrats did something similar during the Bush era (I think this is from 2004 but could be wrong):



The young man who did fire the weapon in Arizona is known for ties to an anti-Semitic, anti-immigration organization. I would suspect that a lot of why he did what he did was over immigration since the Judge who died was a huge proponent of immigrant rights and I believe Gifford is as well.

Regardless, both the Democrats, Republicans and Tea Party types are doing their darnedest to create a truly polarized nation. The rhetoric has been ratcheted up to such a frenzied level I'm surprised it took this long for this kind of situation to happen. Hopefully, this might cause things to settle or lessen but I have my doubts.

[Corkey]

I have so many thoughts on this and I am conflicted. Yes, I do believe that the vitriol has something to do with this shooting. I also believe he alone is to blame for actually pulling the trigger 18 times.
I do think he was sane enough when he did this horrible crime, he planed it out and perhaps wanted to die by cop, which didn't happen.
I do think the right wing fundies have spewed enough hate to go around for years, and he may have been sebcpiptible to it, that doesn't mean that he is mentally ill. I don't have the degree to assign that to him.
I think the laws in AZ need to catch up to the rest of the country for carry permits and for legal ownership of weapons. The victims and families are devastated and this needs to be examined fully. I may have more latter, it's just so mind blowing that this happened, but I can't say it was unexpected from all the poison Palin et al have spewed. I do hold them accountable for their rhetoric, incite to murder is a felony, and I hope it can be proved in a court of law.

[Soon]

Thank you for starting this thread, Medusa!

[Ebon]

People are always responsible for their own actions. That being said I know that Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and a few other folks have said and done things that make me feel like choking a motherfucker but I don't because I'm sane.

I do think that the political climate is ripe for insane people to think it's ok to take another persons life.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by Ebon

People are always responsible for their own actions. That being said I know that Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and a few other folks have said and done things that make me feel like choking a motherfucker but I don't because I'm sane.

I do think that the political climate is ripe for insane people to think it's ok to take another persons life.

I agree with this and the key is insane...even in theory. Meaning their beliefs no matter how far off track can lead to mental instability and insanity as governed by our morals and laws. Of course to them, they are the only ones that are sane.

It's always happened. People have taken it on themselves to be the "ones to save the world" or to take out those in power that they feel are overstepping ever since we have been a Country.

It won't ever stop.

And so on and so on.....

[Rockinonahigh]

Ok,I will put my thoughts on this subject out.
I,for one think that over the years way to much hate and violence has been spoken by to many people.Our elected oficials have become more trashy mouth than a street gutter.Most of the far right has done all it could to beef up the climate over the last years,especally since Obama has taken office,hey the guy had a lot of stuff to repair after the bush folks had the white house for all those years...no easy road for shure...I mean he has has to taken three steps forward and slide back 1 1/2 of them ,but he is doing some good things.Then came the mud slinging,the hate mongers,then Palins target advertising and othershe is responsable for as well as others like her.Once its got started it just kept going couse it didnt ke much fuel to keep it going..think tea party express with there raceist statements ect going one about the rich folks slaming the folks who dont have as much.I herd someone say if the less fourtunate wanted to have more things,they should get a friggin job,get off wellfare so the gov would have more $$..whilethe gove is printing bills out like a madhatter.In reality many want to work..they dont want to be on a gov ticket any where.Where are the jobs we need to help folks who want to work..overseas where the labor is cheap is where the jobs are.PPl are loseing there homes with out jobs..ppl are just mad ,pissed off and frustrated over how it all is.I herd there will be lots of jobs before long,how long?This year,next year.This kid that is a nut case from what I hear...whay wasnt he geting help or an eye kept on him for his own safty and everyone else cause its not like he wasnt known for how he felt about doing what he did or something like it at some point.

[Blade]

Totally agree with Ebon

[pajama]

Democrats say it about Republicans, Republicans about Democrats, it just depends on who's in office at the moment. Sarah Palin no more caused these deaths, than Jody Foster caused Reagan's shooting or Marilyn Manson caused the shootings at the high school, than playing Dungeons and Dragons caused whatever else. And guns don't kill people...idiots and nut-jobs wielding those guns kill people. IMHO

I think the political/religious climate is escalating, as our whole society is. We care less about each other, respect each other less, etc. So as a species, humans have become more violent. Again IMHO.

A

[Just_G]

We see other countries where there is so much violence between 2 groups that are on opposing sides of what is going on in that country, and it makes me wonder what this country will be like years from now when people think the easiest way to handle a situation or to silence a politician is with violence. (and I realize that this has been going on since the beginning of time; i.e. Lincoln, Dr. ML King, Kennedy, etc.) It's barbaric. The tea party folks scare the shit out of me....and a lot of those followers that want to "take this country back".

I see all these left wing nuts that stretch the truth and start rumors and fill people's heads with such bullshit....and people BELIEVE that shit!! My step mom thinks that Rush and Beck walk on freakin' water; and I look at her and think "what kind of idiot are you?" Some of the things that come out of her mouth make my jaw hit the ground.

So now all of these politicians are going to need security....I guess that is one way to help the unemployment rate; right?

[Enchantress]

Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own actions, violent or not.

However, it is essential that those with powerful sway, be cognizant of what they say, do and place out in the world.

Unfortunately, there are those who are mentally unstable or dangerously extreme (one in the same?) who will take those bits of information and go to an irrational and sometimes deadly place.

But we must also be aware that we live in a country that was built on free speech. If we attempt to control this, we are infringing on rights. But make no mistake, those who preach ignorant, biased and hateful rhetoric should most definitely be held morally accountable.

[Kobi]

This is another of those tricky situations for me and my thoughts are all over the place trying to write something coherent.

For me to say something violent occurred because of a political climate or political rhetoric seems self serving and self indulgent. This is a country based on diversity, free speech, and revolution. It is a country of innovations, many of which would not have come to fruition if diversity and differences in thinking were not allowed. It is a country based on differences of thought and beliefs which for the most part find ways to live in some degree of harmony.

It is also a country in flux and economic turmoil. Change, I think, is coming and the process may not be pleasant. We seem to need new definitions of who we are, where we are going, and how we are going to get there as a country.

I can't honesty say the rhetoric of Sarah Palin led this man to a shooting spree anymore than I can say Ghandi and his message of peace inspired someone to kill him.

It's not that simple or logical a process. People do weird things for bizarre reasons. We might feel more comfortable if we can attribute behavior to this or that so our world seems controllable. But, people are complex beings when they are well, they are more complex when they are not well.

I truly believe we are responsible for our own actions. And, as a society, we have become accustomed to looking for excuses for behavior so as to absolve ourselves of responsibility for things we do. I have a real hard time with blaming others for the choices we individually make.

[rainintothesea]

As loathsome as I find Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck, I hesitate to assign them any more power and responsibility than they already so ineptly wield. The degree of ugliness of political rhetoric may ebb and flow, but it's politics. It has always been and is likely to remain ugly.

From where I stand, the best weapons we have against bad ideas are good ideas, better ideas. The best response to speech with which we disagree is MORE speech, not less… never less. If someone with repugnant ideas is spewing them all over the airwaves or from a rally stage, the way to take the power from those people is not to stand by silently, ignoring them, and hoping they go away… and it's definitely not to turn them into a political martyr by trying to silence them so they suddenly have the moral high ground. The way to take their power is by standing up and saying no, I don't agree with that, I won't support it or you and now I'm going to tell everyone else why. It's by challenging them to defend those ideas, to show their work, to produce the evidence, the data to back up the claims they make.

This discussion, on a national level, should be reframed to focus on the actual issues. If a political stance got Gifford shot (immigration?), then it's the issue about which we should be talking, not some old campaign graphic from one of Palin's puppeteers.

Actual incitement to violence is one thing. If someone is saying hey, go kill this list of my political enemies, that's a problem. But saying that because some graphic designer used crosshairs to "target" key seats in a political race that Sarah Palin wants a U.S. Representative dead is really disingenuous and steals focus from the actual important issues here. Bad taste? Ill-advised? Maybe. Criminal? Hardly.

[Gayla]

While I'd like to say that I'm surprised this happened, I think on some level I've kind of been waiting for it.

As much as we may be able to see past the bullshit that is news-as-entertainment, there are a great many people in this country that believe every word of it. I do think that, while we don't know yet about Tuscon, it is responsible for much of the violence around political issues. It may not be encouraging it, but they damn sure aren't discouraging it which I think is more important.

Yes, the ultra conservative, militia kind of groups have been around forever but it's only been recently that attitude has become something other than the fringe. I mean, really, when did it become ok to attack someone and stomp on their head because they might make your political leader of choice look silly? It's that type of mentality that I think is growing and I blame the "reload" rhetoric.

I can't stop thinking about that little girl. I hope that somewhere between the bookends that started and ended it, her very short life was charmed.

[dreadgeek]

Before I say where I think we are, I want to ask you to do a little thought experiment with me.

You are a German living in Berlin in 1937. The war has not started yet. Austria hasn't been given to Germany and neither has Czechoslovakia. Kristallnacht is still in the future. "All" that has happened is that a man named Hitler has risen to power. He and his party have passed laws that while they do not directly harm *you*, clearly harm others. He sounds like a dictator. He is violating treaties and rearming the nation in violation of the Versailles treaty. He talks of peace and prepares for war. He has set himself up as the supreme law of the land, answerable to no one. The Nuremberg laws making the Jews estranged to the German law and economy are in effect but there are no death camps yet. There are concentration camps, but 'political prisoners' are being sent there.

To make this more interesting, you are a member of the German Army. Someone has come to you and proposed overthrowing the Nazi regime. You certainly have the means to do something about this tyrannical madman. What do you do? To make it even more interesting, as you sit at home that night pondering what move to make a hole opens up in the space-time continuum and a thick black book falls through entitled "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". You read it and learn what Hitler is going to put your nation and the world through. NOW what do you do?

I ask this question NOT because I think that America is Germany under the Nazi regime. I didn't think it was under Bush the Younger and I certainly don't think it under the Obama administration. Rather, I invoke it because who *hasn't* had the thought "Hitler was so obviously bad, why didn't anyone do something about it?" It is because of that thought that I think that the tendency to cavalierly compare presidents with whom we disagree with as Hitler or Stalin is inherently dangerous. We should use that language if it is necessary but only if it is necessary. Saying that a POTUS is like Hitler or Stalin or doing anything remotely akin to their actions other than breathing, should be something we approach--if at all--slowly, carefully and after much deliberation.

Is Sarah Palin or Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck or the Tea Party or MoveOn or David Brock or Barack Obama responsible for the actions of this man? No, not in any ordinary since of the term 'responsible' and certainly not in any legal sense. Is the language that Palin, Limbaugh and Beck or the Tea Partiers using in describing the current administration dangerous? Yes, as a matter of fact it is. Unless, of course, you actually believe that the Obama administration has 'FEMA camps' set up to put political conservatives in. If you actually believe that then it is incumbent upon you to present the evidence for that belief. If that evidence is not forthcoming then it is incumbent upon the rest of us to not take you seriously unless and until you have solid evidence.

Sarah Palin should stop talking about 'death panels' that will order your grandmother to be put to death. Glenn Beck should stop making comparisons of Obama to Hitler and Stalin. Rush Limbaugh should stop saying that liberals want the terrorists to win or are on the side of Al Qaeda. The media, perhaps, should start doing their jobs with a little more gusto and mature behavior. If a politician states that his opponent voted in favor of providing Viagra to pedophiles (as was stated by several candidates during the 2010 midterms) then the media should do due diligence, look at the Congressional record, and if it turns out to be a lie call it out as a lie. Don't call it a 'misunderstanding'. The next politician who claims that the Obama administration "gave GM to the unions" should quite simply have their political career end right then and there.

Yes, people are responsible for their actions. However, words--the speaking and printing of them, at least--are actions. Like all other actions, they have consequences. If you are a person of national stature and you claim that the opposing side is a domestic terrorist, you should NOT be at all surprised if some unhinged person takes you at your word and tries to be the hero of the action movie called 'America' and take out the 'domestic enemy'. If you are a person of national stature and you make statements about 'Second Amendment remedies' or 'don't retreat, reload' you should not be at all surprised when someone takes you seriously. This is not just about conservatives or liberals--I winced (and would argue) when liberals claimed that Bush the Younger was like Hitler.

Perhaps if we didn't have a nation awash in guns we could hurl those kinds of insults at one another all day long. It's very hard to kill 6 people in a matter of a minute or two with a broadsword. However, we are a nation absolutely awash in guns and with a persistent mythology of the hero with a big gun, quick on the draw and able to snapshot the wings off a mosquito at 50 yards. If I thought we were a mature country, I would suggest that we make a choice between being armed to the teeth or calling our political opponents everything but some mother's child. However, I don't think we are capable of making that choice.

Cheers
Aj

[Novelafemme]

"We know that silence equals consent when atrocities are committed against innocent men, women and children. We know that indifference equals complicity when bigotry, hatred and intolerance are allowed to take root. And we know that education and hope are the most effective ways to combat ignorance and despair." Gabrielle Giffords

While I may not have any control over the person seeking out a gun via illegal methods, I do believe that stores/businesses that choose to sell firearms to the general public need to be held responsible for upholding each and every law set in place to protect the lives of the innocent. I live in a very gun-happy state where it is legal to walk around in public with a concealed weapon. Do I want stronger legislation around this right to keep and bear arms??? Hell, yes! Maybe if this business had actually run Mr. Loughner's profile through the system in an appropriate manner he would have turned up in the system as having a criminal record. Perhaps law enforcement could have been alerted and his internet rantings discovered. Maybe, just MAYBE this horrible tragedy could have been prevented!! But we will never know because on November 30, 2010 the laws were not abided by and Jared Loughner walked in and out of the store where he purchased an automatic firearm in less than 15 minutes. So, again...I not only ask for more stringent legislation when it comes to legally purchasing a firearm...I demand it!

[JustJo]

I have so many mixed (and horrible) feelings about this whole thing... I walked into my son's school this morning to deliver a forgotten homework assignment and found the children observing a moment of silence and reflection or prayer for those lost. For me, it's heartbreaking...not only what happened in AZ, but also that it's coloring the worldview of these young children.

Anyway...I think that what Palin and Beck and others are doing is despicable. I don't think it's criminal...and I don't think they can be blamed for what a single disturbed individual does. I do blame them for fostering an atmosphere of hatred, however.

From what I've read, this was a very disturbed young man. Friends and staff at his high school had grown increasingly concerned about his mental state. He had been kicked out of the community college he attended for causing multiple disturbances in the classroom and the library...and could not return to college until he had been cleared by a mental health professional who would vouch for the fact that he was not a danger to others. This had not happened.

In part, I blame the changes in our society that have eroded the services we provide to the mentally ill (as well as a plethora of vulnerable others). If we had a decent safety net of mental health care...maybe he would have been helped before now, and these deaths would not have happened.

[Nightshade]

While I think it's important to realize that extremist have been around forever, their methods of disseminating propaganda has changed dramatically.

Instead of radical newspapers, subversive flyers, whispered recruiting and basement meetings, these people have 24 hour podiums on multiple tv and radio stations.

That sort of bombardment is HIGHLY effective and I believe it has contributed to the volatile tone of politics today, and helps these psychos hone their hatred and justify their actions.

[Novelafemme]

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW9gwhJ6YJQ"]YouTube - Mindless Menace of Violence[/nomedia]

RFK's Mindless Menace of Violence Speech. Please listen to these powerful words.