Masculine of Center -- the term

[Parker]

Originally Posted by aishah

mainstream butch spaces are inclusive of white butches. mainstream butch spaces are not, by default, inclusive of butches of color. most qpoc i know don't automatically assume we are welcomed in mainstream queer spaces...because we aren't. that is why it is important to be intentionally inclusive.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

Originally Posted by Dude

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

I cant be eloquent right now because it really pisses me off that any event in the LGBT community would exclude POC - or even make POC feel excluded.

How can you have a conference called Butch Voices and NOT INCLUDE ALL OF OUR VOICES???


I also want to add that it really never occurred to me that calling something Butch-this-or-that would make POC feel that they were not welcome because they dont identify with the term Butch.

Call it privilege or ignorance (or hell, both), but it really never would have occurred to me that Butch wouldnt include all of us and I feel like we, as a community (B-F and LGBT), should seriously talk about this more; but I dont mean that in the POC-should-educate-white-folk way, but more of a we-need-to-get-this-shit-out-into-the-open-to-dispel-the-ignorance-surrounding-it way.



Oh, ps - I agree with Greyson: policing sucks.

[Corkey]

So center is male? Still trying to understand, it still doesn't make any since. And yes excluding POC from the community sucks and is wrong as hell, just as is saying male id'd people have some sort of privilege. Try living in my skin for a few days. It isn't any better than anyone else's experience.

[aishah]

i find the fact that bbp puts issues of masculinity at the forefront of their work to be really awesome because i have lived in communities of color that are in crisis because of the intersection of gendered violence and colonialism. i think that's why the term - and their discussions of masculinity and femininity - resonate with me so much. i think their work and the discussions they spark by attempting to re-envision masculinity is very very necessary. (i also have no argument against being grouped under the umbrella term "feminine of center," although i don't find it unproblematic by any means.) i definitely agree that we need to have more discussions about how not to turn around and recreate masculine spaces that are misogynist. and maybe this isn't the right umbrella term. (fuck all the umbrella terms! except, you know, let's find each other so we can work in solidarity. but seriously, fuck all the umbrella terms.)

[julieisafemme]

No! The racial tension came from the objection to the term MoC! This is my experience of being there. BV did include all the voices by trying to use MoC as an umbrella term. Or at least that is what they thought they were doing. It ended up alienating butch women.

I won't say that all who objected to it were/ are racist. There was a lot of unexamined white privilege that was part of that discussion. And ageism.

See and that was the whole point. To many young MoC butch does NOT include them. That is why BV tried to add in MoC to include those for whom Butch does not resonate or feel good.

Originally Posted by Parker

I cant be eloquent right now because it really pisses me off that any event in the LGBT community would exclude POC - or even make POC feel excluded.

How can you have a conference called Butch Voices and NOT INCLUDE ALL OF OUR VOICES???


I also want to add that it really never occurred to me that calling something Butch-this-or-that would make POC feel that they were not welcome because they dont identify with the term Butch.

Call it privilege or ignorance (or hell, both), but it really never would have occurred to me that Butch wouldnt include all of us and I feel like we, as a community (B-F and LGBT), should seriously talk about this more; but I dont mean that in the POC-should-educate-white-folk way, but more of a we-need-to-get-this-shit-out-into-the-open-to-dispel-the-ignorance-surrounding-it way.



Oh, ps - I agree with Greyson: policing sucks.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

No! The racial tension came from the objection to the term MoC! This is my experience of being there. BV did include all the voices by trying to use MoC as an umbrella term. Or at least that is what they thought they were doing. It ended up alienating butch women.

I won't say that all who objected to it were/ are racist. There was a lot of unexamined white privilege that was part of that discussion. And ageism.

I know you are talking specifically about that conference and how the people there reacted, but to be honest, it does feel alienating to me - not as a white Butch, but as a Butch woman.

The term feels to me like it negates the woman in me; and I am not even speaking as a Butch woman who does not claim, use, and identify with masculinity - I do consider myself masculine and I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self.*

That's why I would never use it to describe myself - of course, I would never tell another human being that they could not use it to describe themselves either.








*Note: by "I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self" I meant that I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of me in every aspect that is me because that is who I am - I did not mean that a Butch is not whole if s/he does not embrace both the masculine and feminine.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Parker

I know you are talking specifically about that conference and how the people there reacted, but to be honest, it does feel alienating to me - not as a white Butch, but as a Butch woman.

The term feels to me like it negates the woman in me; and I am not even speaking as a Butch woman who does not claim, use, and identify with masculinity - I do consider myself masculine and I have embraced both the masculine and feminine sides of my whole Butch self.

That's why I would never use it to describe myself - of course, I would never tell another human being that they could not use it to describe themselves either.

Yes I hear you and understand how you feel. There were many other butch women who felt the same way. All I can tell you is that in the rejection of the term there was unexamined white privilege and ageism. The conversations were extremely heated and emotional. What *I* learned was that for many people of color they did NOT feel comfortable in white butch spaces. They did not feel heard. Butch Voices was trying to include those voices.

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

I feel you on this and I wonder if we (community) can &/or should use both then: Butch &/or Masculine of Center.

In my mind - again, this could be my age, my privilege, or my ignorance - Butch encompasses us all; but now that I know that Butch can be marginalizing for POC but Masculine of Center is a more accepted term, I will start using both when speaking about Butches in general.

[Boots13]

I cannot begin tell everyone how much I appreciate the opinons, the facts, the beliefs, the politics and even the bias of this subject.

My challenge is to recognize the culture (my predispostion to white butch culture?) that inadvertantly establishes a bias. I also want to reflect and address who and where I am within that. I guess most notably any unintentional fallout from my staunchly defending my Butch id which then may be percieved as exclusionary... It was in my "blind spot" and I was unaware that in my unabashed support of Butch, I may have set up a predispostion to exclusion. Who knew ?

My head is really spinning over this...
good night -

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Yes I hear you and understand how you feel. There were many other butch women who felt the same way. All I can tell you is that in the rejection of the term there was unexamined white privilege and ageism. The conversations were extremely heated and emotional. What *I* learned was that for many people of color they did NOT feel comfortable in white butch spaces. They did not feel heard. Butch Voices was trying to include those voices.

I am a white femme. I do not pretend to know what people of color go through. During the weekend I listened and heard that many people felt that butch was a white identity and it did not speak to them. MoC did. It included their particular cultural identities of stud, aggressive, macha, dom etc.

Although I do not want to use MOC for myself, I did understand how they believed that Butch was a white identity. I guess because I am old enough to remember when white lesbians shunned using Butch as an identity, and there were POC Butches. Today there are many White Female Identified Butches. I am not saying that is a bad thing.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Boots13

I cannot begin tell everyone how much I appreciate the opinons, the facts, the beliefs, the politics and even the bias of this subject.

My challenge is to recognize the culture (my predispostion to white butch culture?) that inadvertantly establishes a bias. I also want to reflect and address who and where I am within that. I guess most notably any unintentional fallout from my staunchly defending my Butch id which then may be percieved as exclusionary... It was in my "blind spot" and I was unaware that in my unabashed support of Butch, I may have set up a predispostion to exclusion. Who knew ?

My head is really spinning over this...
good night -

I am not going to speak for you of course, Boots, but for me, I believe this was borne out of out my white privilege.

Simply put: I didnt see it because I didnt have to see it.

[nowandthen]

I think for me what is the hardest and most painful part is to know that my good heart and intention along with my marginalization as a queer is a white experience which is not an easy thing to see, name and work on. When we as white folks talk about race most often we are looking out instead of in and locating ourselves in the system. Being a white queer masculine person has its benefits even when if I am called sir 9 out of ten times and I know I am not. I am not racially profiled everywhere I go, in fact when I am assumed male I am often asked for my thoughts on subjects I know nothing about. In my last relationship, I was assumed to have the college education as well as my family with only one parent who had a HS diploma and my girlfriend is a lawyer and her parents went to college but she is a WOC. My point is part of keeping things the same is the use of white guilt as a tool of policing the system. So as much as I want to think my experience is the same as other butch's or MoC or any other label the one thing I can not escape is that of being white and that come with unearned privilege. So I keep pushing, unlearning and healing, and that which is giving light grows

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

I do not id as being masucline at all. The world's stereotyping put's that crap on my ass imo. I am a lesbian that loves being a woman and loves loving a woman. I refuse to accept the stereotypical lables of what a woman should wear, carry or act. I'm am highly offended when anyone attempts to deam what I have the right to think about myself and think they have the right to determine how I define to ID myself.

[Medusa]

I hope Jack will come in here and discuss her experience with the BV conference. She was on the very first "steering" committee for all of 30 days. She chose to leave when it became clear to her that the Aging Female "Butch" in "Butch Voices" was going to take a back seat.

That's her story to tell and I hope she tells it.

One thing I will say is that I was really glad to see that there was a push to welcome and embrace young masculinities of color, experiences of different abilities, and folks with non-traditional masculine experiences. It was time for it.

Something that happened for me when I was on the original steering committee for the Femme Collective is that my world of "what I didn't know" was expanded. And it hurt like hell sometimes. And this is where I tell you I fought pretty hard to police "Femme" from Men. Was that my privilege talking or my fear? Was that my indignant belief that Femme was Queer and Female? At the time, I had to let some of my shit go. Some of that shit that I had fought really hard to claim, because, in the end, the most important thing for me was that I was recognized for who I was and that all of my sisters were recognized for who they were.

I don't know what the point of this was, but there it is.

[Toughy]

Concerning the center............How about the center is androgynous-an equal mix of masculinity and femininity? MoC simply would be the masculine side of androgyny. Femme of Center would be the feminine side. There is no male or female sex involved. It's about the energy. *shrug*

White butch women, including me, got a bit bent (to say the least) about the MoC thing. So much so that it caused a split within the BV Conference leadership and community and it got messy and there were a couple of three issues besides MoC. Nobody was listening to anybody. BV leadership includes many PoC and it's not easy on white folk when PoC are in charge. Change is hard.

I went to the Conference and was invited to sit on the InterGenerational Panel. It was an amazing experience. I am still jaw dropped amazed at those kids.....

I went with an open heart and mind to try to understand what was going on. I came away from it with a better understanding of the dynamics.

I do think the language could be tweaked, but I am not involved with BV so I made my suggestion and they can do what they want. No skin off my back.

I still don't claim masculine of center as identity.....I'm a butch woman....but it certainly fits as a description of how I present.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Concerning the center............How about the center is androgynous-an equal mix of masculinity and femininity? MoC simply would be the masculine side of androgyny. Femme of Center would be the feminine side. There is no male or female sex involved. It's about the energy. *shrug*

White butch women, including me, got a bit bent (to say the least) about the MoC thing. So much so that it caused a split within the BV Conference leadership and community and it got messy and there were a couple of three issues besides MoC. Nobody was listening to anybody. BV leadership includes many PoC and it's not easy on white folk when PoC are in charge. Change is hard.

I went to the Conference and was invited to sit on the InterGenerational Panel. It was an amazing experience. I am still jaw dropped amazed at those kids.....

I went with an open heart and mind to try to understand what was going on. I came away from it with a better understanding of the dynamics.

I do think the language could be tweaked, but I am not involved with BV so I made my suggestion and they can do what they want. No skin off my back.

I still don't claim masculine of center as identity.....I'm a butch woman....but it certainly fits as a description of how I present.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.

[chai~]

bookmarking to read later

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.

It's pretty clear to those who claim it..........<grin> .......and if you don't get stuck on the phrase 'MoC' it's pretty damned inclusive and clear to me. And I met the folks who coined the phrase and they are mostly female/woman id'd folks and not afraid to say so.

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It's pretty clear to those who claim it..........<grin> .......and if you don't get stuck on the phrase 'MoC' it's pretty damned inclusive and clear to me. And I met the folks who coined the phrase and they are mostly female/woman id'd folks and not afraid to say so.

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>

LOL I know I'm old, which is why I've been asking for clarification..and the cat is trying to post.

[nowandthen]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.

But there is language and a definition and folks have said what it means to them, so I am confused? What will it take for you to understand that you may not need to understand? Maybe that is ok? not attacking I curious

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by nowandthen

But there is language and a definition and folks have said what it means to them, so I am confused? What will it take for you to understand that you may not need to understand? Maybe that is ok? not attacking I curious

Perhaps because there is not one but several definitions of the same word that confuses the word as I know the word to mean. That word "center". I know everyone has their own identity and have no definition problems surrounding the word "gender". When the two words are used together they do not make since to me. Toughy's use of energy makes more since to me than "gender" "center" does. And I'm old and understand the english language as I learned in that growing old. New concepts are not impossible to learn, but it does take time and if I want to be respectful of peoples gender identities then it behoves me to understand them. Clearer?