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Old 04-12-2011, 03:04 PM   #21
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i don't think of androgyny when i think of combinations of masculine and feminine energy. To me, androgyny is an attempt to not be recognized as either. It's like you have to achieve a balance or you have failed. And historically, i think it was an attempt to get out from under sexist notions of femininity without reconstructing them. In some ways, it's a fantasy of not having to deal with difference.
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Old 04-12-2011, 04:50 PM   #22
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Default Some LGBTI history-

Androgyny has long been embraced by strong women, soft men, members of queer communities, and others who do not easily fit into traditionally defined gender categories.


http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/androgyny.html

Actually, it goes to being recognized as both....
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Old 04-12-2011, 05:29 PM   #23
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i don't think of androgyny when i think of combinations of masculine and feminine energy. To me, androgyny is an attempt to not be recognized as either. It's like you have to achieve a balance or you have failed. And historically, i think it was an attempt to get out from under sexist notions of femininity without reconstructing them. In some ways, it's a fantasy of not having to deal with difference.

This is exactly how I perceive it.
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Are you educated or indoctrinated?
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Old 04-12-2011, 06:10 PM   #24
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I love androgyny!

The first time I saw my bf put on a pink shirt I knew we would be all. right. He's a beautiful boy and his disregard for gendered colours makes me love him all the more.

My ex gf, my last serious relationship, was much the same. Everyone thought she was butch.. until the first time they saw her partying in lipstick and girly outfits. She never dressed for any one else.
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Old 04-12-2011, 07:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by June View Post
I was thinking about what androgyny means to me -- When I hear the word, I think of someone who is more comfortable using that term than Butch, Femme or even "Soft Butch" or "Femmy". I know we use it derisively a lot as in "Oh, yeah, she was kind of cute, but too adro for me".

Which is pretty dismissive and judgemental as well as binary reflective.

I think it might get misused as well, for instance, someone describing a long haired, self ID'd Butch as "Andro" just because their visual presentation is different than the "norm". The same could happen with a short haired self ID'd Femme, too.
Maybe we need a "Hair" re-make? Speaking of the play- and how it reflected what was going on in that era. What would it look like now?

So strange- I think that andro can be used as you state- many don't want to use butch or femme. Although, I use butch, I feel androgynous as it has been understood for a long time- and it isn't gender neutral- it is about merging and interweaving. It also has significance in Native cultures and things like Two Spirit. Obviously, androgyny is significant to those identifying as 3rd Gendered or to Transpeople as well as Butches or Femmes.
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:49 PM   #26
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enjoying the topic ...Good stuff!
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:00 PM   #27
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What would we do without poetic license?

Think about terms/concepts that have been re-claimed as well as powerized and bring groups that once were put down by them new strength and promise.

Acknowledging history does not mean remaining in the past- especially when it comes to gender.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:25 PM   #28
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If I could hit the "thanks" button a million times to the original poster, I would. Thanks, Toph.

Unfortunately, it seems this user has not logged in since 2010.

Anyway, anyhow...

I use the term "androgynous" to describe myself for the same reasons. I am physically androgynous, without a doubt. I would imagine butches who bind, pack, wear men's clothes, and have short, typically male haircuts are usually androgynous in appearance. Some are androgynous even without the binding or packing, because society takes cues from wardrobe, haircut, and mannerisms. While those things all cause one to present as masculine, the female body remains underneath - biologically female hands, neck, face, arms, et cetera - and this contradiction of nature causes a person to look and think twice about what someone has below the belt.

Hell, in Stone Butch Blues, Jess (the narrator) ends up going by the term "he-she." I modernized it to "dude chick," but it's the same idea. I do feel being "not quite a man and not quite a woman" places one in the androgynous category, if it is a term said person feels like claiming.

I say genderqueer is my mental presentation. Androgyny is my physical presentation. Butch is my attitude.
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:48 PM   #29
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when I was much younger I dated ultra femme women or what I called "sporty" at the time. I didn't know much about butch-femme but I knew I was sexually attracted to a certain look. I discovered androgyny. Especially younger, submissive men and women, really I didn't see a gender per se. In fact looking back the serious relationships I was in were with what I call 3rd sex. I know we've had lots of discussion about this but I define it as a type of androgyny. Not only in looks but in action/movement. I admit that I find this highly sexual. (evil grin)

I'm into any type of gender bending, the more extreme the better.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:29 PM   #30
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I'll second that - gender bending is hot. I would describe myself as androgynous, certainly - I get "sir'ed" frequently when I'm not trying, sometimes I get "ma'am'ed" when I think I look the most butch.

I get mistaken for a guy sometimes even when I'm making no attempt to hide my breasts. I walk like a man, even in a dress- I just can't hide it. And kids peg me most often - usually as the opposite of my bio gender. I think their minds are more open to accepting what's in front of them than adults who've been trained that everything has a neat little place where it's supposed to fit.
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:53 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexHunter View Post
If I could hit the "thanks" button a million times to the original poster, I would. Thanks, Toph.

Unfortunately, it seems this user has not logged in since 2010.

Anyway, anyhow...

I use the term "androgynous" to describe myself for the same reasons. I am physically androgynous, without a doubt. I would imagine butches who bind, pack, wear men's clothes, and have short, typically male haircuts are usually androgynous in appearance. Some are androgynous even without the binding or packing, because society takes cues from wardrobe, haircut, and mannerisms. While those things all cause one to present as masculine, the female body remains underneath - biologically female hands, neck, face, arms, et cetera - and this contradiction of nature causes a person to look and think twice about what someone has below the belt.

Hell, in Stone Butch Blues, Jess (the narrator) ends up going by the term "he-she." I modernized it to "dude chick," but it's the same idea. I do feel being "not quite a man and not quite a woman" places one in the androgynous category, if it is a term said person feels like claiming.

I say genderqueer is my mental presentation. Androgyny is my physical presentation. Butch is my attitude.
Oh Alex, I like you more everyday. You remind me of Riley in soooooo many ways.

Riley is GF/androgynous. Everything about him appeals to me. Everything. He has more balance in his identity than most people I have ever met.

When I first saw him (we met b/c of a mutual friend) I could not tell-guy/girl. Having to look & think twice is so freakin' hot to me! It drives me crazy in such a good way-especially when the answer is what I prefer myself


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Old 05-12-2012, 01:27 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexHunter View Post
If I could hit the "thanks" button a million times to the original poster, I would. Thanks, Toph.

Unfortunately, it seems this user has not logged in since 2010.

Anyway, anyhow...

I use the term "androgynous" to describe myself for the same reasons. I am physically androgynous, without a doubt. I would imagine butches who bind, pack, wear men's clothes, and have short, typically male haircuts are usually androgynous in appearance. Some are androgynous even without the binding or packing, because society takes cues from wardrobe, haircut, and mannerisms. While those things all cause one to present as masculine, the female body remains underneath - biologically female hands, neck, face, arms, et cetera - and this contradiction of nature causes a person to look and think twice about what someone has below the belt.

Hell, in Stone Butch Blues, Jess (the narrator) ends up going by the term "he-she." I modernized it to "dude chick," but it's the same idea. I do feel being "not quite a man and not quite a woman" places one in the androgynous category, if it is a term said person feels like claiming.

I say genderqueer is my mental presentation. Androgyny is my physical presentation. Butch is my attitude.

Your last sentence hits the nail on the head for me and what I feel about myself.
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Old 07-27-2012, 03:51 PM   #33
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You know what is funny, really seriously funny? Since I've grown my hair longer and wear eyeliner what-not (compared to my bare faced buzzed head I did forever) more people tend to think I'm an androgynous pretty guy then ever thought I was a dude when I was mega "butched up"... lol.

Granted I dress very dude-ish... and it depends on the day and how my clothes fall on my body... but yeah, they do. Funny too, my old confusion is now theirs and I'm not at all confused anymore... I found my balance.


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Old 08-10-2012, 10:44 AM   #34
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Alex;
you are right, i have had a long hiatus. fact is i was quite ill but am back for more now.

i really appreciate your million times thank you!

i did not mean to leave this thread unattended for so long but it happened and today, filled with rain and gray skies, i found myself reading all the posts and responses a few times over.

it is comforting to know that even some of the most butchly butchies and femmes of all maintenance groups agree and have voiced their opinion/s.

that being said, i would like to share a recent experience

i went for a coffee not long ago i sat outside just staring at the day. a good looking older gentleman approached me and we started talking. it was 30 minutes into our conversation that he realized i am not a bio-male. he thought i was a young man. When he apologized with chuckles he said "Holy shit you look just like a guy" i replied with "Holy shit you sound just like a girl" we laughed and talked and have met for coffee 3 times since.

i have facial hair, a gautÚ, i have had it since i was about 11. my mother, devoutly Italian, would put hot wax (melted on the stove) on my face and tear away my hair. it was painful and it always resulted in cystic acne. i understood why she did it, i was relentlessly teased and made fun of for either my hair or the result of its disappearance. fact is though, i never cared about my facial hair or my genderfucked appearance, still don't. i am as i like to say, the best of both worlds, love me or leave me.

through recent testing, it has been discovered that i have male pattern hair growth, an extra rib (or a missing rib) also known as Adams Rib, that i have higher than normal testosterone levels, which explains why i have had about 13 periods in all my 47 years. but does this explain my androgyny?

when i shave my gautÚ i look like i am either a young dude or a superiorly butch chick, but my mannerisms never change. i embrace my female i embrace my male and i embrace my ability to confuse the tunnel visioned world with their ideas and idealism of what either gender should encompass.

but what i do not embrace, is the painfully inaccurate definitions that our own community (whether online or in real time) have now decided belong in our 'glossary of gay terms'. it is a simple case of opening a dictionary.

we are what we are nothing can change that, not chemicals or operations, we still live in our minds where no one can violate or control us, where no one can enter or even understand our mental processes.

i agree with so many of you that it is so much of our own attitudes, our own acceptances and how we live day to day that defines who/what we are.
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Old 08-10-2012, 11:41 AM   #35
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June;
i have a lot of issues about the same thing!
sometimes i feel more acceptance in the 'straight' world than in the gay world.
sad but true. when are you butch enough? when are you femme enough?
i wouldn't have expected this, but sadly it seems to be surrounding us. when is enough enough?
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:03 PM   #36
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its interesting that when people think of women being androgynous they speak often about their masculine energy confusing people.

I have been evolving over the past few years and have found that when I dress lately, its not hyper femme like I use to. And my hair is nowhere near a girl's cut anylonger. My local friends have even said a few times to me that I am drawing closer to androgyny. Which panicked me, because back when I came out, androgyny was a political uniform and I wore it to fit in with the other lesbian feminists. Which of course was the wrong reason to "become" anything, but its where I was at, at the moment.

But here I am, sitting in my pretty and plus store, with short black hair, andro glasses, short nails, jean shorts and a basic t. If I didnt have earrings on, what would mark me as a femme? My nephews, age 8, told me the last time I babysat with him, my hair made me look like a boy. But I am a woman and a femme.

I have to go to a huge awards banquet tomorrow night. I have been looking for a gown to wear. I wonder if this andro period/evolv has something to do with it.
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:22 PM   #37
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when i was a kid i would drive in the car with my momma, she was a New Yorker so her driving was somewhat exciting...she never used her blinkers...i would say momma jesus use the turn signal and she would say and i quote "let the fuckers guess"

that now is my motto in life. it makes me laugh right out loud that my own community spends more time exploring my physical appearance for sign of a gender than extending an olive branch of acceptance which could possibly result in new friendships and understandings.

that is why i prefer dogs!
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:35 PM   #38
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lol... I prefer dogs and horses, too.



thank you for the smile, I needed that

My mother also is a New Yorker, who met quite a few gender bending folks in the 1940's. There really is nothing new under the sun. Just folks like to think everything is new and improved.

Love your mother's attitude. Though I am glad I am not driving behind her!
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:47 PM   #39
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Driving with her was hell enough! I will never view a sidewalk the same again!
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:55 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineCorps1 View Post
And kids peg me most often - usually as the opposite of my bio gender. I think their minds are more open to accepting what's in front of them than adults who've been trained that everything has a neat little place where it's supposed to fit.
I love kids. They don't know to be embarrassed or ashamed for wondering about gender or asking questions. Know = how society tells us we should feel/think.

It doesn't happen extremely often (I think somewhat because I am not around young kids often), but I love the, "Are you a boy or a girl", question!
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Are you educated or indoctrinated?
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