The Never-Ending Bathroom Debate

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!

I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.

I think I didn't express myself entirely in the clearest way possible. I definitely agree with you that security is still an issue, but I'm not sure that it being an issue is why so many butches and masculine females/women etc. have trouble in women's washrooms.

For example, I remember on the b-f site a while back there was a discussion concerning the bathroom issue. One poster had made a complaint about how they'd been treated in a women's changeroom and how there shouldn't be any such issues (or something like that, my memory's foggy). I remember posting a response about the security, and another poster (I think maybe JustJo? Lemme know if I'm off base here) gave an example of a client of her's reaction when a very masculine butch entered the change room. If I recall correctly, the response from the client was genuine shock because she really thought a man had entered the changeroom. But that is not the response many women give when they see a masculine biological female enter a washroom/changeroom/what have you. More often than not they know the person is in the right bathroom according to biological sex, but choose to make some kind of snide remark, make a big deal and bring a security guard into the situation for the sake of humiliating the individual, or generally engage in some kind of mockery. They do not express shock or fear because they don't actually fear for their own safety. They just want to ridicule the individual.

Also, I agree the men's washroom is a safer bet and personally don't have a qualm with what you suggest since I prefer to be there, but I understand that others do not. I can understand the point some butches who do not identify as male would make, that they have just as much a right to be there as any other female/woman. With regard to encouraging progressive thought as far as sex and gender, should they not continue to use the women's washroom even if other women do not approve of their gender identity? Should it not be used as an instance of practice what you preach, so to speak? Am I making any sense?

[theoddz]

Adele, I too am a "family bathroom" enthusiast. I promise, that if you and Cal should come to visit at Casa Theo, you will have your very own "privy room". One room, one door, one lock.
----------------------------------

That said.....

Before T, and before I began to pass 100% of the time, I had the most horrible anxiety about using a public restroom. I'd hold it and wait until I got home, even if it meant having to drive across town to my home. Many, MANY times....more than I can count, had I (prior to transition) been called down, usually by XY males for heading in to the ladies' room. It was always....always....a nervous, angsty experience for me.

Now, I must say this. I've been out with a couple of fabulous and fiercely protective Femmes....some from this site, and they have done a *fabulous* job of running interference for me while I dashed into a Ladies' room to pee when I just couldn't hold it any longer. Let me tell you....a guy couldn't ask for a more stalwart, fearless ally than those beautiful women who had my back in these situations. I'm sure my bladder has escaped irreparable damage through the good graces and formidable courage of these lovely Ladies!!! G-d love you Ladies, one and all, for standing up for us and letting us and our potential harassers/adversaries know that they were going to be a force to reckon with, if anyone dared to harass us for our gender presentation.

I've seen so many posts here on this web site, and on the others, from non trans folks who want to congratulate us transfolk for our "courage" in walking the world the way we do, but let me tell you....and this is speaking from my heart about my past, that having good allies who aren't afraid to step forward and "have our backs" made all the difference to this guy.

I knew from the day I read Medusa's "Ode To The Butches" that I was finally home with this community and that there were others who not only understood but would advocate (and celebrate) guys/people like me who never fit in anywhere else and live outside of gender "norms".

A person can never know what small thing will touch another's life in a most profound way. Finding this community touched mine. Oh, and 'Dusa??? If you read this, THANK YOU....again.

~Theo~ .....lovin' on our allies.

[Ryobi]

I'm sure everyone knows the song, "Dream Police" by Cheap Trick. I have changed a few words to the start and sing it at work all the time. Everyone knows when I have to pee.
"The Pee Police, they're always lookin at me.
The Pee Police, they wanna know how I pee."

This came about when I was outed at work by "friends"/co workers. (everyone knew I'm queer. They didn't know what kind of queer because, I had just actualized it myself. And to make knives bigger, I got these 2 "friends"/assholes their job. Another story, another thread.) Anyway,
When this happened, I started to notice that a few people were watching what bathroom I went into. So, because of my love to fuck with people, I started using whichever one was closest. They acted like they would know everything about me just by which bathroom I used. At one venue, this got somewhat heated because we can only use the locker rooms. This meant that a lot more people than just my co-workers used these restrooms. Long story short, I now have access to the unisex bathroom by the Mgt. offices. I didn't ask for it but, I do use it. One of the upper ups talked to me about the situation, then gave me that access. He's cool and very understanding. At another venue I work at, there are unisex bathrooms except for the dressing rooms. A mix of uni and not through out the building. When I have to pee there, a few of the guys are still hung up about the bathroom situation. (5 frickin years later) I of course, use the unisex ones, on a break, with a bunch of people around. In the last 5 years, I have never exited one of those bathrooms without leaving the seat up. No matter what I do while I'm in there, I make sure the seat is up when I leave. (no urinals, just a toilet and sink) The ignorant are confused. The informed are amused. (I do talk with people about TG issues. Most I work with are cool about it. Some are at least educated enough to be respectful. A few will always not care to be human.)

The Pee Police, they're always lookin at me.
The Pee Police, they wanna know how I pee.

Oh, I too love the family or uni bathrooms. More and more places here have them. And, if I can help it, I'll hold it until I get home if one of those isn't available.

[Glenn]

[QUOTE=Ryobi;199930] I have never exited one of those bathrooms without leaving the seat up. No matter what I do while I'm in there, I make sure the seat is up when I leave. (no urinals, just a toilet and sink)

But why? (Here's another issue) Would'nt the females prefer the seat down lol? The wave of the future in public and corporate bathroom design seems to be moving in the direction of doorless stalls, and wider and deeper walls. We're trying to open them up to appease the pee police

[Nat]

A good friend of mine, Blake, gave me permission to re-post his writing here. It's a familiar story within this community, and well-written/well-told. Bonus: When I asked for that permission, he not only agreed but he checked out the site and decided to join.

Anyway, here it is:

The Wrong Bathroom

On Tuesday afternoon, I carried a bladder full to capacity all the way across campus.
Every out of the way restroom door I might have breezed through in various buildings along the way seemed to be plagued with an interchangeable gaggle of young women– lingering, laughing together, blocking the way in their jeggings, oversized hoodies and Ugg boots. It didn’t matter because I had a purpose, one that led me seemingly on its own accord to a building where I knew I could work in silence for hours on end. And my head was full, its wheels turning in motion only to the massive assigned project at hand; the soundtrack of this was the aural confection of New Order; I felt so extraordinary, something had a hold of me; and this in combination seemed to outweigh my full, weighty bladder.

I often wait until it’s unbearable. Going to the bathroom is quite a chore.

I’d finally made it to the quiet building when it was a force I could no longer ignore. I did as I always do, looked at the floor and swiftly pushed through the door, continued to look at the floor, only at the floor, and found the nearest stall, earphones still pulsing loud with the full wonders of the synthesizer. To my great relief, it seemed I was all alone in the bathroom. I wouldn’t have to wait for some woman to take all the time in the world washing her hands and checking herself in the mirror to wash my own hands and get the hell out. I wouldn’t get the timing wrong and cause some poor girl to jump at the sight of me. No one came in the whole time. I almost felt comfortable. I washed my hands all alone in the vast bathroom with its long row of stalls. I even had time to check myself in the mirror and turned off my mp3 player because now that that great concern was over with, it was time to get to work on my project.

I pushed my way through the door and was met face to face with a maintenance man carrying a gigantic walkie-talkie. I stood arrested, not only because he was blocking my way, but because it was so unexpected. This gave him a few seconds to examine me, turn his head to the right, and shout to a woman across the great expanse of the building, “(Woman’s wholly unmemorable name), it’s not what you think!” as he stepped back and let me pass. “You can never be too sure!” shouted the woman in response. Neither one of them addressed me directly at all.

I was left to figure out what had just happened, which of course was realized immediately. And what’s funny is I didn’t have the shame to leave the building. I went specifically to that building to do my work because it was an ideal place to do so. And I wasn’t going to leave just because something embarrassing had just happened.

I couldn’t have sat in a more visible place either. I was right out in the open with my laptop open and books spread out all over the table. Right out in the open for the same maintenance man to walk by and smirk at several times during my lengthy stay and none of this caused me the slightest inkling of shame. I just thought it was funny.

I giggled to myself internally about it all afternoon. Especially that “it’s not what you think!” business. I know he meant that the circumstance was not what she thought. “It” was not why she ordered that he barricade the door with his leathery, broad-shouldered brawn. But it was, essentially, also the person. “It” was me; I was the circumstance; I am an “it”.

But also, the thought that a big man, by the looks of it the biggest at hand, would have to block the entrance, to protect women from a supposed rapist madman, this was all particularly funny. What did they think would happen? I could have laughed about it for days.

This wasn’t the first time a blockade has been set up on campus, an effort to protect women from entering a bathroom I’d walked into quickly devised. My first semester, I attempted to leave another similarly barren bathroom and realized with the swing of the door I’d pushed several large garbage cans out of my way. And then I saw the line of young women waiting to use the bathroom who were all laughing at me as I walked past the professor who without a doubt had instituted the whole charade. I looked down and continued to walk as she shouted helplessly, “Stop right there! I can see you! I know what you look like!” and the laughter grew louder. Unfortunately I was only traveling less than a hundred feet away to my next class and clearly entered that door, a door to an auditorium-style room, where more than 200 students attended. This was the same class that all of the women forced to wait in line would certainly also travel to after being permitted to simply use the bathroom.

I took my usual seat in the very back left corner and wondered if I was in trouble, if someone was going to come find me and drag me from the room. And I also imagined that professor hauling all of those garbage cans from various points in the hall in front of the door. What an endeavor. And so fast! And she must have told all of those waiting girls that there was a rapist madman inside and they had to wait. Why hadn’t I heard all of that commotion? All I wanted to do was pee.

I have been giving a lot of thought to errors in my thinking. Errors that seem so clear when they are discovered, but that have gone on for so long I no longer recognize them as dense gauze over my perception. My therapist has done wonders for hacking through it.

I mentioned to him that a woman I have collaborated with on several group projects said she’d tried to find me on Facebook. I dismissed her obvious angling coldly. “It’s under a weird name” I said quickly and then changed the subject. I know this hurt her a bit. Her whole mood became less friendly and I caused that. And my reason was because she would look through my photos, my weird posts, and it was all so uncomfortably transparent. I was not ready to share that with someone I barely knew, who I will have to continue to work with. “But…” my therapist stopped me, “She interacts with you daily. And I have news for you, Blake. You are not hiding anything. She knows who you are just by looking at you. And she accepts it. Wanting to extend her friendship to you in that way was a way of saying she accepts you and is curious to know more about you.”

Why should I have a full blown epiphany at a statement like that? It makes so much goddamned sense.

And the same phenomenon extends with public bathrooms. Obviously I cause problems in the women’s room. The reason I still use them is because of the small population of students and professors who know my given name and know I am female. If I used the men’s room and someone knew I was not technically male, then what would happen? And then I realize I have already seen close to the worst of what can happen, save physical violence Thank God, if you use the wrong bathroom.

[princessbelle]

I've sat and read some of the posts in here this morning. One thing keeps coming back to me as i read this and it is of my own emotion and that is anger.

I, like many here, been with a few trans/Ftm/butch guys/girls over the years when they were going to use the bathroom and when they clearly had held it so long their eyes were watering and i've also witnessed what they go through as many have. The looks, glares, the uncomfortable air that you could cut with a knife, the awkwardness of me needing to check it out first to see if anyone was in there before they entered, the walking out swiftly so that maybe they would not be noticed with their eyes to the floor.

I can't help but get protective and angry and more times than not say something like "mind your own buisness or "what are you staring at" ect. I think, for me, if they would just look away or ignor the situation i would be ok, but it's like they all want to be confrontational with "us/them".

Usually, who i'm with will just shhh'sh me and says "don't worry about it", "drop it". But, it is hard for me to see this happen and not open my mouth to stand up for "your" rights as a human being.

I was just curious.....from femmes and to the ones that it happens to, how do you get past the anger and wanting to rip out someone's hair when they give your friend or yourself a look of disgust, cause quite honestly, i gotta get a grip on it. It just makes me so mad i wanna scream and stand in front of "whoever" and shout "how dare you give anyone a look like that, you have no clue who he/she is".

Ya know?

[girl_dee]

@ Belle.... Yes I know!

[DomnNC]

Bathrooms, they can be a fun lil trip if you let them. I don't look down at the floor, I go in like I own the damn place (doesn't matter which one I choose to use and I always choose the one that I can pee at the quickest cuz when ya gotta go, ya gotta go). But if one stands there gawking I have a couple little sayings via my dearly departed as she would be quick to say it if I didn't get there first (even tho I don't identify this way, chuckles).

To the women:
Honey, I'm more fucking woman than you'll ever be and more man that you'll ever fucking have.

To the men:
Dude, I'm more fucking woman than you'll ever have and more man than you'll ever fucking be.

Then I or my wife would offer to take a pic with our cell phone and offer to email/snail mail it to them.

It generally shut them the hell up right quick and made them look elsewhere.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Snickles, here's how I deal with stares period.

"Mind your business!"

"STOP staring didn't your mom tell you it's rude"

"Yes, we're a biracial couple now EAT YOUR MEAL"

We don't walk around scared, we walk in like we own the joint.

PS

Loud questions deflect the attention back on them

[girl_dee]

I agree... I don't mind teaching the general public a thing when I can! I love walking in the washroom with my Butch!

[princessbelle]

I agree with you all. That is what i do too. I was asking am i over reacting? Taking it upon myself to be a princesswhitehorseinshiningarmour or am i making the situation worse, which has been said to me, when i do lash out. Was just wondering if maybe i take things too far because i always say something when i see it happen. Because i CANT seem to keep my anger intact.

I know everyone handles the situation like they think they should. I guess i'll just keep saying what i feel like. Apparently, i'm not alone.

lol.

[SelfMadeMan]

I used the men's room for two years or so, prior to transitioning just because I *wanted* to. I walked in with my head held high even though I didn't pass 100%. When a men's restroom was unavailable/occupied I went into the women's room, head held high and stared back at anyone who stared at me. I used whichever room *I* chose, regardless of what anyone else thought... just my .02. I'm not suggesting others are wrong for not handling it this way, and I know for some, it isn't so easy... so please don't think I'm passing any judgements :-)

[BullDog]

Sometimes it is people being rude and sometimes there can be genuine fear or uneasiness if a woman sees someone they read as male being in a place they are not expecting. So I think you have to keep both things in mind. I am usually not bothered, but if someone looks unsure I just try to smile and put them at ease.

[AtLast]

Confession-

I really like going into a woman's restroom with a femme.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I've sat and read some of the posts in here this morning. One thing keeps coming back to me as i read this and it is of my own emotion and that is anger.

I, like many here, been with a few trans/Ftm/butch guys/girls over the years when they were going to use the bathroom and when they clearly had held it so long their eyes were watering and i've also witnessed what they go through as many have. The looks, glares, the uncomfortable air that you could cut with a knife, the awkwardness of me needing to check it out first to see if anyone was in there before they entered, the walking out swiftly so that maybe they would not be noticed with their eyes to the floor.

I can't help but get protective and angry and more times than not say something like "mind your own buisness or "what are you staring at" ect. I think, for me, if they would just look away or ignor the situation i would be ok, but it's like they all want to be confrontational with "us/them".

Usually, who i'm with will just shhh'sh me and says "don't worry about it", "drop it". But, it is hard for me to see this happen and not open my mouth to stand up for "your" rights as a human being.

I was just curious.....from femmes and to the ones that it happens to, how do you get past the anger and wanting to rip out someone's hair when they give your friend or yourself a look of disgust, cause quite honestly, i gotta get a grip on it. It just makes me so mad i wanna scream and stand in front of "whoever" and shout "how dare you give anyone a look like that, you have no clue who he/she is".

Ya know?

Christie manages to always overhear the remarks made about me regarding "what is that? is this the right restroom?" etc and if I am out of ear shot will give them a bit of "education" that only a proud 6 ft redhead southern femme lady can give. When I happen to catch something on the tune of "now, ya'll go fuck yer precious little bigot selves now ya hear" rolling of those sweet lips, I admit, it does make my heart get big.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ah see Snickles Grant only uses the mens room, when he "he has to" I usually call him honey so they at least know we're queer. His safety factor plays into how I react. Virginia has been the worse experience in our travels. I use gay mens restrooms but only if I am known at the establishment. Now... If I'm hanging out with butch buddies and they use the correct restrooms then I'm ok with saying

"hey back off it's a woman no different than you"

I've found women to converse more than guys and will listen in restroom situations.

[christie]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I agree with you all. That is what i do too. I was asking am i over reacting? Taking it upon myself to be a princesswhitehorseinshiningarmour or am i making the situation worse, which has been said to me, when i do lash out. Was just wondering if maybe i take things too far because i always say something when i see it happen. Because i CANT seem to keep my anger intact.

I know everyone handles the situation like they think they should. I guess i'll just keep saying what i feel like. Apparently, i'm not alone.

lol.

I dont think you are overreacting - I think our reactions are equal to the reactions we are seeing...

That said - I have found that a "Oh hell honey, show 'em yer tits" or any other "shock value" retort usually results in the gaping mouthed offender finding a hasty exit.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ah see Snickles Grant only uses the mens room, when he "he has to" I usually call him honey so they at least know we're queer. His safety factor plays into how I react. Virginia has been the worse experience in our travels. I use gay mens restrooms but only if I am known at the establishment. Now... If I'm hanging out with butch buddies and they use the correct restrooms then I'm ok with saying

"hey back off it's a woman no different than you"

I've found women to converse more than guys and will listen in restroom situations.

I agree, women will prolly converse more than men in a public restroom. Too many assumptions of "tea-room" if men do anything more than nod in passing. They don't make small talk in bathrooms. Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question "ANY"one who just needs to relieve themselves.

I mean really.. it's not like a destination, afterall.. it's literally a Piss-stop.

I've used men's rooms/ womens rooms/ unisex and honestly I hate having to use any. I like to piss at home in my bathroom where it's clean. Do not expect much of an apology when I am not visiting.. I am simply dumping and movin on. It ain't like we gotta be friends. LOL

[betenoire]

innate insecurity?

I get that I'm being off-topic now, but I just can't not.

Please don't say that women are innately insecure. It makes me feel icky. We're not born insecure. In the event that a woman -is- insecure, it's socialised.

I mean, really. Which chromosome is insecurity attached to?

(Maybe men are insecure. Maybe the reason that they don't talk in bathrooms is because they're worried that people will think they're trying to pick up.)

Now, as for women being more likely to question who is around them in a bathroom situation...you gotta admit that the condition of the world around us necessitates us needing to be aware of our environments for the sake of our own safety. Again, that's not innate. That's a direct response to how fucking dangerous being a woman can sometimes be.

[Turtle]

Yeah, so I don't like to derail threads AND

"Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question " is just too WTF?

And then it kills the thread/discussion because - believe it or not - there are lots of people out here who don't like to "have words." So,

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Bathrooms - can be tricky and downright painful.

I've been in situations where transmen ID each other and one asks the other if there is a safer bathroom in the place and I'm told that most of the bathrooms in Alaska are "family" bathrooms.

Locker rooms in a club are a bigger problem. Maybe the "family" bathroom, with a changing table and specifically, more space would due for a private changing room, if there is an issue.