Identity, Authenticity - Do they conflict?

[dykeumentary]

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is the question: is the whole greater than the sum of it's parts? If identities are stars in a vast sky what can be gained by seeing the whole universe as a wondrous collection, versus focusing on a few stars? I prefer to ponder the OP as not about clinging to indentities, but rather transcending them. Thoughts?

[little man]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is the question: is the whole greater than the sum of it's parts? If identities are stars in a vast sky what can be gained by seeing the whole universe as a wondrous collection, versus focusing on a few stars? I prefer to ponder the OP as not about clinging to indentities, but rather transcending them. Thoughts?

how does one go about transcending the pieces of themself that make them who they are? and to what end?

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by little man

how does one go about transcending the pieces of themself that make them who they are? and to what end?

I think thats the question everyone would have to answer for themselves, and that's the beautiful thing about asking it.

So since that sentence sounded a little "Yoda" even to me, I guess I should also say that I am trying to figure out how to use my experience, my family background and my blessings as an artist, in the service of humanity and truth.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is the question: is the whole greater than the sum of it's parts? If identities are stars in a vast sky what can be gained by seeing the whole universe as a wondrous collection, versus focusing on a few stars? I prefer to ponder the OP as not about clinging to indentities, but rather transcending them. Thoughts?

Thanks - I think you understood where I was coming from better than I did. This isn't too Yoda-ish to me. I also like your clarifying post afterwards.

You said, "Is the whole greater than the sum of its parts?"

which made me think of Leonard Cohen's Anthem, when he says/sings, "You can add up the parts but you won't have the sum."

And then I started thinking about the words "whole" and "sum" and - I hope this isn't too far out there - I think "whole" is to "authentic" as "sum" is to "identity."

To study Buddhism is to study the self.
To study the self is to come to know the self.
To come to know the self is to forget the self.
To forget the self is to be at one with all things.

- Dogen Zenji

I'm not a Buddhist, though I suppose over the last few years I've been exposed to an increasing amount of some American Zen Buddhist thought. If I take the Buddhism out, I'm left with a (cyclical) experience: To study the self is to come to know the self is to forget the self is to be at one with all things (lather, rinse, repeat). That "one with all things" thing - I only get that in moments if I'm lucky - but I spend a lot of time with the studying and the coming to know the self part.

Over the last 5 years, I have spent a great deal of time, energy, thought, emotion on studying and expressing (my) self - my orientation, my gender ID looming especially large at least at times. It feels a bit like I've been chasing down butterflies and pinning them to a board, and only now am I finding that the most important thing about the butterflies is their interaction with the flower.

I hope this makes sense - I am exhausted beyond words. goodnight.

[Turtle]

I want to talk about identity. I've been wanting to talk about it for a while now. I suppose for some time now, I've had an internal debate going about what identity is and what its role is in a human life.- I think our lives are about being and/or becoming more and more authentic as we grow through different stages

I chose the above quote to start this discussion because it contains within it a small definition of identity which I had not heard: *

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic person I think identity can be too much of a focus and end up being a distraction, but it doesn't need to be.

I identify as a lot of different stuff. This definition interests me, because I hadn't heard it put that way before, though I did feel a great deal of pressure to identify when I first came out. Yeah, who are you/what are you? Declare yourself and in some groups you know you will no longer be welcome if you declare as the wrong whatever. AND indentifying with a group can be part of the process of figuring out who I am and who I am not, what do I want to be or do - or not.

So I have some questions floating around and I'd love to hear other people's takes on these:

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity? I have not been very good at fitting into boxes in my life and I'm cool with that. Forever in between the categoriesand sometimes I have moods that are stronger than usual and I'll think more about trying testosterone or maybe I will get another motorcycle, but usually I'm just regular old me....and when I was 15 and had to put on my bad-ass walk when I went out and I refused to cry - neither one of which was healthy.

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? I think much of the time, identity is a vehicle to get to know yourself better, including when "indentity" changes or melds. Identity may define us in a role - student, sister, parent, etc. - and as life goes on we have more and more layers.

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither? Anyone may choose any direction with this.

What does identity offer you? I have very much enjoyed being at a conference and identifying with a group, going to workshops, discussing, sorting out bits and pieces, and being a part of a large group. And in the end, it's just me in this skin.

What does it take from you? At times, I have been too much about the boots, the jeans, the bad-ass...for me life is way easier and better without the crap.

Do you see your identity as flexible? VERY.

Have you felt pressure to identify? In the past, but not for a very long time.

I have so many mixed feelings at the moment, but do feel some division between my identity and my most authentic self - but I feel like my most authentic self is the person in charge of my identity if that makes sense. I feel like here in this community, I bring both my identity and my authenticity, but then if I hung out with you, you might get a different and equally authentic experience. From where I sit "mixity" is good. Mix it up, try it on, play with it...and be real. YAY!! Thanks NAT!! I believe that we are all works in process.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Nat

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic person

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?it is a means of expressing how i feel inside. transgendered verbiage is not recognized or understood widely through out this country. that is the barrier. how the world reads me usually comes from a space where they have no knowledge of an identity that is authentic to me.

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *
i think that relationship is relative to each person. for example, a queer person in closet at work or a queer person not out to their family. i don't think this set of circumstances makes a person inauthentic.

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither?
i have seen it do both. for myself, my identity unifies me, even when the rest of the world reads me as something i am not. i have also seen it divide and create much tension with people i know and love but that is on them.

What does identity offer you?
a safe space in my own mind so i don't get disconnected from my physical self.
What does it take from you?
for a second, i think it takes away opportunity to know certain people but then i think...their loss!!!

Do you see your identity as flexible?
not really flexible...sometimes i am fluid because i can be a swishy kinda guy.

Have you felt pressure to identify?
no...my identity is a very personal part of me that isn't formed through pressure but is formed from a need to align myself with what i see in the mirror and in my mind.
.

I don't really feel a division within myself over my identity and my authenticity. I feel divided outwardly when people judge me for decisions I make regarding my identity, so I am guarded in the company I keep.

Sooo does identity and authenticity conflict??
It could happen if i was to allow myself to recognize identities and labels as a hierarchy/value system but i don't. I try to do my best to be a person of my word and this provides me personal authenticity. When I am not of my word I don't feel authentic. I try not to place a value system on authenticity because we all have circumstances that are different and special so my hope is people provide me with a benefit of the doubt I try and provide them with.

[Chazz]

Hi, I'm new here and wanted to say hello.

I'm not one to label myself. My persona is in balance with my inner being. These days, I don't give "identity" much thought unless someone else brings the issue up, or it's pertinent to a conversation.

It's a relief not to be self-preoccupied, though I do think that identity self-preoccupation is a necessary part of the "coming-out" process. It's not something we do to ourselves. It's a feature of growing up in the false duality of masculine/feminine and imposed heterosexuality. It is possible to get stuck in self-preoccupation, but coming out the other side of that is a huge relief.

[DomnNC]

Interesting questions and responses. I define me, I define my identity and I did that a long time ago even in high school and before. I know what my identity is and I don't need anyone to validate that, period. As long as I'm true to MY chosen identity then I'm being authentic to myself and others. It's just that simple to me.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I know who and what I am for as long as I can remember. I am not sure I really understand the authenticity and identity conflict. What does this mean?

[Greyson]

Yet another thought provoking thread started by you Nat. Thank you. I don't know how I missed this one up until today. I was looking for an appropriate thread to post a link to an article about a young genderqueer student at UC Berkeley. The article speaks to "Multiple Identites."

I know for me as a Queer person with multiple identies sometimes in the LGBTQ community I think some of the whole of who I am does get muddled. I am not only a gender, race, class, I am "other" which at times seem to have divergent needs.

For me my identities assist in my becoming more and more authenic. I am a viable part of the whole. (IMO we all are.) If I have no self understanding, self knowledge, self acceptance how does it color the whole of which I am a part?

Anyway, here is the link to the article about the young person who is part of our LGBTQ community and more.

__________________________________________________ ___________


“Queer students here hold multifaceted identities and belong to multiple communities,” Rosas said, adding “many of whose lives are impacted by decisions such as these.”

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/10/23/33306/

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Yet another thought provoking thread started by you Nat. Thank you. I don't know how I missed this one up until today. I was looking for an appropriate thread to post a link to an article about a young genderqueer student at UC Berkeley. The article speaks to "Multiple Identites."

I know for me as a Queer person with multiple identies sometimes in the LGBTQ community I think some of the whole of who I am does get muddled. I am not only a gender, race, class, I am "other" which at times seem to have divergent needs.

For me my identities assist in my becoming more and more authenic. I am a viable part of the whole. (IMO we all are.) If I have no self understanding, self knowledge, self acceptance how does it color the whole of which I am a part?

Anyway, here is the link to the article about the young person who is part of our LGBTQ community and more.

__________________________________________________ ___________


“Queer students here hold multifaceted identities and belong to multiple communities,” Rosas said, adding “many of whose lives are impacted by decisions such as these.”

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/10/23/33306/

Greyson - have I mentioned lately that you're awesome?

[Dance-with-me]

I have not yet read all of the responses but I wanted to reply.

For me, the issues come up when one or more of my various identities goes against the stereotype of another of my identities: that is a good thing in some ways, particularly in terms of breaking down stereotypes, but it also makes being stealth the default for those identities and that's not what I always want.

For example, being true to my femme identity means that my queer identity is not always obvious - I am perceived as straight. Being intelligent, educated and articulate (can't think of one word that would define that as an identity, but it IS one of my identities, an important part of who I am) means that my Appalachian roots and identity are not always obvious - people are [often rudely] surprised that I should identify as Appalachian when I don't have the accent of most of my kin, I didn't grow up there (military brat), and I don't fit their stereotype.

More later - just realized I should be on my way to work!

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is the question: is the whole greater than the sum of it's parts? If identities are stars in a vast sky what can be gained by seeing the whole universe as a wondrous collection, versus focusing on a few stars? I prefer to ponder the OP as not about clinging to indentities, but rather transcending them. Thoughts?

I get this.

Even the little bit I share here I find people want to authenticate me and try and label me. I get this from comments people make and see how they form judgments. People place way to much value on words.

My community sees me as an advocate for animals and farming. The mature woman who has all those animals. lol I meet with a few women friends here and there, my age who enjoy art and nature. They might swing by after bible study to take a walk with me or see what I'm growing. Most people know I'm a lesbian but don't talk about it. Most don't really care and have no idea about the personal inner workings of my life. I don;t hide it. I just don't announce it. I come here to share this part of me but often find it sad when the community I turn to for support wants to judge and label me.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

Being intelligent, educated and articulate (can't think of one word that would define that as an identity, but it IS one of my identities, an important part of who I am) means that my Appalachian roots and identity are not always obvious - people are [often rudely] surprised that I should identify as Appalachian when I don't have the accent of most of my kin, I didn't grow up there (military brat), and I don't fit their stereotype.

I have had a version of this one my whole life. Appalachian parents, raised in SW Ohio so less of an accent (none now) and higher education. The people being rudely surprised experience -- so been there..

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by Martina

I have had a version of this one my whole life. Appalachian parents, raised in SW Ohio so less of an accent (none now) and higher education. The people being rudely surprised experience -- so been there..

My mom and her side of my family are all from the S/SW Ohio Appalachian diaspora -- mostly Ironton/Portsmouth area (ever hear of Franklin Furnace? it was my home base growing up, where my mom grew up and where my Granny lived until she couldn't take care of herself any more). More kin in Springfield, and many of the ones who "escaped" and "moved up" in the world went to Cincinnati (where I ended up going to college).

People say ignorant things to me about my lack of accent, as if it's some disability that I should be thrilled to not have to overcome, when there's nothing more that I'd love to hear once more than my Granny's thick accent grown in the hollers of eastern Kentucky. They don't get why I prize the sustenance scrap quilts my Granny made over the prize-winning magazine-cover quilts that my mom has made, or why the object I hope the most to inherit is the quilt my mom made from the bow tie blocks that my Little Granny pieced long after she went blind. They are quick to stereotype "trailer trash" and refuse to recognize that for many poor rural folk, a trailer is a big step up and a source of pride. They don't get why as a queer person and feminist and liberal I stay so close to cousins who are right wing conservative Christian, never getting that they are no more wholly defined by their political and religious views than I am by mine, and that I know sides of them that they can't fathom, including that any one of them would take me in, come rescue me, and be there for me no matter what if I needed that from them.

Sometimes the only way to be authentic to a part of your identity is to battle the stereotypes, but in can just get so exhausting when those stereotypes are so pervasive.

[princessbelle]

This is a good topic and one to really think about.

I think of my authentic self as my core of all identities rolled into one being...me.

I have a lot of identities, mother, daughter, girlfriend, nurse, femme, ect...

But, without the identities and their changes over the years, i am still my authentic self. In other words, my identities can change as i evolve and grow and become. My authentic self is the core of my being, the "here you are spot" in my world and conscious.

I guess i don't find they are in conflict because the authentic self of *me* wins.

This comes to mind...

"A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet" Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet.

Call me what you want, label me an identity or i will identify myself. Doesn't change the essence of the mother ship in my soul. I am who i am.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

My mom and her side of my family are all from the S/SW Ohio Appalachian diaspora -- mostly Ironton/Portsmouth area (ever hear of Franklin Furnace? it was my home base growing up, where my mom grew up and where my Granny lived until she couldn't take care of herself any more). More kin in Springfield, and many of the ones who "escaped" and "moved up" in the world went to Cincinnati (where I ended up going to college).

People say ignorant things to me about my lack of accent, as if it's some disability that I should be thrilled to not have to overcome, when there's nothing more that I'd love to hear once more than my Granny's thick accent grown in the hollers of eastern Kentucky. They don't get why I prize the sustenance scrap quilts my Granny made over the prize-winning magazine-cover quilts that my mom has made, or why the object I hope the most to inherit is the quilt my mom made from the bow tie blocks that my Little Granny pieced long after she went blind. They are quick to stereotype "trailer trash" and refuse to recognize that for many poor rural folk, a trailer is a big step up and a source of pride. They don't get why as a queer person and feminist and liberal I stay so close to cousins who are right wing conservative Christian, never getting that they are no more wholly defined by their political and religious views than I am by mine, and that I know sides of them that they can't fathom, including that any one of them would take me in, come rescue me, and be there for me no matter what if I needed that from them.

Sometimes the only way to be authentic to a part of your identity is to battle the stereotypes, but in can just get so exhausting when those stereotypes are so pervasive.

My parents both came up from eastern Kentucky to Xenia, Ohio. I went to college for a while in Springfield. My love of the culture is expressed through a love of the music although I admire the crafts. My mom has a lovely collection of quilts, but I don't know anything about them. We have to make a database of her stuff soon, so I know what is family stuff and what is stuff stuff.

I feel a real affinity with folks who grew up in places like Ohio or Texas or Illinois, but whose sense of cultural identity is mostly Appalachian. There have been a lot of amazing musicians who were products of the diaspora: Daryl Scott, Steve Earl, Troy Campbell, Rodney Crowell, Dwight Yoakam. I actually taught a course in Appalachian Studies (once) at the University of Michigan. I haven't kept up with the literature although I have read Silas House. (He also writes about music.)

I don't like to be reverse pretentious. My family is not from the hollers. My great grandfather on one side was a judge (notoriously corrupt). Another was a doctor. Lots and lots and lots of my relatives are or were teachers. I do have some relatives who live in trailers etc. But most of my relatives live in McMansions.

I have had less luck with keeping in touch. I fell out of touch for decades, and then took my dad back to the family reunion summer before last. He wanted to go one last time, and my mom couldn't both drive and care for him. So I flew to Florida and drove them up to Kentucky. My extended family on my Dad's side are beautiful to look at and fun to be around. They have attractive and accomplished children, nice houses and expensive cars. They have lived good lives. But the vast majority are evangelical Christians and Republicans. Only a few have been OK with my sexual orientation. In person they are civil; maybe three (not close relatives) are warm. When I connected with them on Facebook after the reunion, it wasn't pretty. In truth, these are not people who would help me or protect me as most Appalachian families do. My uncle who is gay is either hated or ignored unless someone wants money from him. He has lived in LA for forty-some years. I wish my family were a source of strength.

I have always felt a class difference even though my parents were school teachers. In Xenia, the "briars" were second class citizens. People made fun of my mother's accent. My dad altered his accent until he retired when it came back in a rush. So many "briar" jokes I heard growing up. We went "home" a lot of weekends and to the cabin at Lake Cumberland for the summers. We had a strong connection to eastern Kentucky. My parents went to college at Morehead, and they returned for homecoming most years. My grandmother went to Berea, and we took her there on visits too. People are pretty loyal to their alma maters down there. ANyway, Kentucky -- the food, the woods and lakes, the late summer nights -- it is all much more vivid in my memory than the neighborhood I grew up in in Ohio.

When I went to college in Ohio, the class differences weren't that meaningful, but when I got to graduate school in Ann Arbor, Michigan, yeah, wow. Huge differences. There is a big difference between the life I lived and the ones lived by my fellow students who came to Michigan from Brown and Yale. I tended to clump with other folks who experienced the class difference, if for different reasons. One friend was from rural Indiana, another from Nogales, Arizona. Another was from Detroit -- not the suburbs.

There's new research out that shows that putting kids from poor and working class backgrounds into elite universities does them -- and their careers -- a disservice. It may be good for the institutions, but it's hard on the students. There was a NYTimes article this week on what hell it is for poor kids (usually POC) who are recruited into elite prep schools. I don't compare what I went through in Ann Arbor to that, and certainly if one intends to be a professor -- which I did at the time -- elite is better. But it did exacerbate the injuries of class I had already received in Xenia.

When I was growing up, we had a colorful painting of the map of Kentucky in our family room as well as art by Kentucky wildlife artists in several rooms. We were proud and wistful and looked upon Kentucky as a sort of lost Eden. Yet my parents did not retire there as many of their colleagues did. My mom refused. The mountains made her feel claustrophobic. And even though she had never been super poor there and she faced no threat of poverty with her Ohio teacher's pension earned, she felt like it would have been a return to the life she had lived as a child during the Depression and WWII. She would not consider it. My dad was fine with her decision. The golf courses are open year round in Florida, and he learned to fish in salt water.

Anyway, I am rambling. My point is that even my parents have a love-hate relationship with Kentucky. But my parents are Kentuckians -- from EASTERN Kentucky. That's who they are. It's mostly expressed in screaming at the TV during basketball playoffs. But it's real. My mother's cornbread has no equal. It's the first thing I get when I go home: pinto beans and cornbread.

I never felt at home in Ohio or Kentucky although I loved Kentucky more. I got out basically -- out of both of them -- first to the liberal ghetto of Ann Arbor -- and then to California. When I visited Kentucky last year, I was struck by its beauty. There is no place like it. No place so green. No place where the food tastes as good. And it was wonderful to see people who looked like me and who talked like my parents. It felt like home, but it wasn't home. It's an idea of home that doesn't exist for me, that never existed for me. I am not alone in that experience. It is more common than ever.

I am reading Catfish and Mandala right now -- a memoir by a person who came to the U.S. from Vietnam when he was ten years old. His brother, a transman, committed suicide for reasons that have to do with being trans and coming from a violent family, but also because -- it seems -- he was so profoundly displaced. He had been more at home in Vietnam as a kid with his grandmother. He never felt at home after he left.

This sort of thing is a high end problem for me and many people, but it's not for some. It's certainly a fact of our age. I live in a town with many many immigrants from China and India. I see their children walk to school every day. While there are more differences than similarities in our experiences, it does remind me sometimes of my own relationship to Kentucky, which is more my home than any other place, but where I have never lived and where, in truth, I am unwelcome.

[Dance-with-me]

Martina, wow, thank you for writing that. Yes, our Appalachian roots are somewhat different but the experience of connection yet rejection and the deep love for the beauty and so much of the cultural heritage of that place is very familiar to me. My dad's family was edging towards white collar by the time he was born (g'mom was a school teacher - though with just a HS education - and g'dad was a supervisor at the plant where he worked), but my mom's was poor. My Granny really was raised in an eastern KY holler - two rooms, 7 kids, no plumbing or electricity. My gr-granny (Little Granny) was married when she was 14, Granny when she was 16, mom when she was 17. Mom spent half her life without indoor plumbing until my grandparents finally had scraped together enough money to build a house in Franklin Furnace in 1954 when my mom was 14, and there were people in that neighborhood who still had outhouses and hand pumps when I was a young teenager in the early '70s.

I could write so much more but I don't want to monopolize this thread. Thank you again. It's very good to hear from someone who really gets what that part of me means to me.

[Dance-with-me]

OH I did want to make one comment on the class issues at elite universities: I did a year of graduate school at Tufts (83-84) and I was completely unprepared for the class difference - at least a University of Cincinnati I was able to meet and bond with folks from a similar class background. I will never forget a meeting at the "Tufts Lawn and Garden Club" - their euphemism for the lesbian and gay club - where someone complained that the meetings need topics since all they usually did was just sit around and chat, mostly about their fear that mom and dad would cut them off if they found out they were gay. One person suggested that at the next meeting we discuss what it was like to be a gay person in the different countries where they'd traveled in the past year. I honestly thought that they were joking, until I saw the nods and heard others agree that was a good idea. I cracked up laughing and asked them if Kentucky counted as a foreign country -- because at that moment, to me, they felt as completely foreign to me as the folks in other countries felt to them. They looked at me like I'd had a psychotic break. I never went back.

[ruffryder]

I don't believe Identity is a way to avoid having to become authentic but vice versa. One becomes authentic because of their identity(ies). Identity is used to identify a person and what they encompass. It makes them authentic to how they may identify.

I do not feel identity(ties) are barriers to authenticity. I believe it is an expression of that authenticity. There may be a relationship between the two words or there may not be depending on the person and how they may identify or use as an identifier for themselves or in their life. Identity can unite that authenticity in one's life or it can divide it.

Identity for me signifies what I am and shows people who I am and can be and that encompasses a wide range of identities and beliefs and people. It can be flexible depending how others see it and how they can relate to it. I don't think it can ever take anything from me or away from me, it is how I relate to it and want it to relate to others and in my life.

I haven't felt pressure to identify. I had one co-worker put all gay women into a box labeled "lesbian" and I just said I don't identify as lesbian and left it as that. I'm sure he was confused and he's a gay man, but I felt no need to explain it to him. I found that with not one, but two gay men here recently. He is one to cause drama at work and talk about everybody's life so I just left it alone. Normally, I will explain to people how I identify (trans as one) and what that means to me.

Great discussion here!