Click.... when we knew we were feminists - Page 3

Bad_boi · 10-26-2011, 02:33 AM

I said nothing offensive. If you are taking offense I whole heartedly appologize that you feel that way.

I know full well that I cannot argue my veiws on here anymore. It is always 10 to 1. Me being the one. I have a valid point and so does everyone else. I am sick and tired of everyone ganging up on me and raging at me for my opinions and experiences. I am tired of being singled out. It seems every time the dash site crashes and I wind up here I wind up in some kind of drama. I am sick of this.. I never said anything against women or feminists. I said something against the feminists that are overly angry at people for their positive actions twards women. The fact that certain people in here are making a mountain over a molehill further proves my point.

TLDR:
I am not attacking anyone so please stop attacking me.
Please stop misinterpenetrating what I am saying and don't jump to conclusions.

AtLast · 10-26-2011, 04:06 AM

There are several veins of feminist thought as well as generational differences. The Feminist Waves continue too flourish. We are in the development of a Fourth Wave right now. Feminism is elastic and speaks to each generation based upon what is relevant to each generation. And this old time Second Waver has no problem integrating more contemporary ideology into thought and actions.

dykeumentary · 11-03-2011, 09:01 PM

*bumping this important thread*

Also.... I was surprised to find myself conflicted about posting body photos to be objectified. I did post, sort of as an exercise in pushing myself. I guess the feminist in me has gotten comfortable with looking a Femmes when they present themselves to be "viewed" that way. But it was a little uncomfortable for me.
Thoughts on this?

*Anya* · 11-04-2011, 07:06 AM

I have several thoughts about this issue actually and may appear to be random but are all related-or will be in the end.

I am a feminist. I am a lesbian. I am not only attracted to a woman's mind but am attracted to her sexually. A woman's body is beautiful to me. Looking at pictures of butches, I appreciate not only their handsome beauty but they also turn me on very much.

I also like to occasionally look at lesbian porn. Not the fake lesbian porn made by bio males but porn actually produced and directed by lesbians. I have even, on occasion, looked at gay male porn and found it arousing ( movie "The Kids are All Right" anyone?).

I also think that when we are objectifying ourselves, as in the Butches and Girl Pinup threads, there is an element of humor and joy to it. Feminism can also have humor and joyful play; I do not think they are mutually exclusive!

I remember the feminist protests against porn. I never participated in them because I felt they were grossly misguided when there were so many other, much more important issues of concern.

From Wiki, regarding the porn wars:

"Women Against Pornography (WAP) was a radical feminist activist group based out of New York City and an influential force in the anti-pornography movement of the late 1970s and the 1980s.

WAP was the best known of a number of feminist anti-pornography groups that were active throughout the United States and the anglophone world, mainly from the late 1970s through the early 1990s. After previous failed attempts to start a broad feminist anti-pornography group in New York City, WAP was started in 1978. WAP quickly drew widespread support for its anti-pornography campaign, and in late 1979 held a March on Times Square that included over 5000 supporters. Their anti-pornography activism around Times Square also brought in unexpected financial support from the Mayor's office, theater owners, and other parties with an interest in the gentrification of Times Square.

WAP became known through their anti-pornography informational tours of sex shops and pornographic theaters in Times Square. In the 1980s, WAP began to focus more on lobbying and legislative efforts against pornography, particularly in support of civil-rights-oriented antipornography legislation. They were also active in testifying before the Meese Commission and some of their advocacy of a civil-rights based anti-pornography model found its way into the final recommendations of the commission. It became less active in the 1990s and faded out of existence in the mid-1990s.

The positions of the group were controversial. Civil libertarians opposed WAP and similar groups, holding that the legislative approaches WAP advocated amounted to censorship. Sex-positive feminists held that feminist campaigns against pornography were misdirected and ultimately threatened sexual freedoms and free speech rights in a way that would be ultimately detrimental toward women, gay people, and sexual minorities. WAP became involved in some particularly heated debates and skirmishes with sex-positive feminists, particularly in the events surrounding the 1982 Barnard Conference. These events were battles in what became known as the Feminist Sex Wars of the late 1970s and 1980s."

Bottom line, I believe we can be feminists and make our own porn, shoot our own photos, we can appreciate and love the beauty that is woman, femme or butch (whichever turns us on); in all of her glory-clothed or unclothed and it does not make us any less of a feminist.

dykeumentary · 11-04-2011, 11:41 AM

Hi Anya, thanks for your thoughts.
I remember hearing about those debates, but mostly from the perspective of my uncles, who all had subscriptions to Playboy. They also expressed their hope that the ladies would resolve their dispute by means of a national hot-oil-wrestling tournament....)

So i came out in that culture (not very fun) and my first gay community was working class softball dykes. Many of them had body issues and wore ill-fitting baggy men's clothes. I almost decided I must not be lesbian, because I wasn't sexually attracted to them at all.
So when I started to find lesbians who were pretty and feminine, I got scared about my feelings. (but became reassured that I wanted to have sex with women!). I wanted to be with a feminine woman, but I didn't know how to "be". When I was growing up in New Jersey in the 1970s, I always thought the hookers my uncles would meet at the bowling alley were the most sexy and beautiful women in the world. (ok, part of me still does ). But my innate sense of fairness knew that I shouldn't treat women the way I saw them treated in my town.
This was further complicated by my being a dyed-in-the-wool stone top. I didn't know anyone who was even talking about sex, and the few that were talking (usually very late at the pot luck) were glowing about how "equal" and "reciprocally touching" it was.
So there I was trying to grow away from my culture of sexism, and some of the people around me we lesbian separatists, many hated their bodies, and not many were in their power as sexual people.' We were all trying to figure out how to be different kinds of women than our mothers were.

I think I'm rambling on and on here. Sorry.
I guess I'm saying that I love women's bodies, and i love to celebrate them in word and deed! It's been a journey to recognize what makes sense and what's oppressive.
I guess the bottom line (and the top!) is fully informed and freely given CONSENT.

Sachita · 11-04-2011, 12:16 PM

when I was a young teen I became friends with a hardcore feminist lesbian wiccan group.

I've spent most of my life rebelling against patriarchy in some way or another. Some points of my life more then others. I just don't fit into the typical feminist mold. I would consider myself leaning more radical and my true core views would piss some people off but try as I may to free my mind, I just can't deny my feelings.

ScandalAndy · 11-04-2011, 12:33 PM

I was in first grade (7 years old) when I had my moment. There was a boy in my class who was the only person who could keep up with me academically. We wrote our second grade play together (it was about dinosaurs and a time machine, and a bunch of child archaeologists), had friendly competitions / discussions regarding schoolwork, and interviewed for the gifted school at the same time. I told my parents I was going to marry that particular boy because he was named "Jesse Anderson", and that way I would never have to change my last name.

There has always been a part of me that knew I could never capitulate to patriarchal restrictions on my life.

*Anya* · 11-04-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hi Anya, thanks for your thoughts.
I remember hearing about those debates, but mostly from the perspective of my uncles, who all had subscriptions to Playboy. They also expressed their hope that the ladies would resolve their dispute by means of a national hot-oil-wrestling tournament....)

So i came out in that culture (not very fun) and my first gay community was working class softball dykes. Many of them had body issues and wore ill-fitting baggy men's clothes. I almost decided I must not be lesbian, because I wasn't sexually attracted to them at all.
So when I started to find lesbians who were pretty and feminine, I got scared about my feelings. (but became reassured that I wanted to have sex with women!). I wanted to be with a feminine woman, but I didn't know how to "be". When I was growing up in New Jersey in the 1970s, I always thought the hookers my uncles would meet at the bowling alley were the most sexy and beautiful women in the world. (ok, part of me still does ). But my innate sense of fairness knew that I shouldn't treat women the way I saw them treated in my town.
This was further complicated by my being a dyed-in-the-wool stone top. I didn't know anyone who was even talking about sex, and the few that were talking (usually very late at the pot luck) were glowing about how "equal" and "reciprocally touching" it was.
So there I was trying to grow away from my culture of sexism, and some of the people around me we lesbian separatists, many hated their bodies, and not many were in their power as sexual people.' We were all trying to figure out how to be different kinds of women than our mothers were.

I think I'm rambling on and on here. Sorry.
I guess I'm saying that I love women's bodies, and i love to celebrate them in word and deed! It's been a journey to recognize what makes sense and what's oppressive.
I guess the bottom line (and the top!) is fully informed and freely given CONSENT.

Oh yes, handsome stone butch top; there must be fully informed and freely given consent for all things sexual!

I came out in the late 70's too, at which time the lesbians I met everywhere wore flannel shirts, baggy clothing, and they did not at all appreciate the femme that I was. Actually, at a couple of bars and clubs, they kind of laughed at me.

I did not feel like I fit in anywhere until I met my ex-who was stone butch at the time. She absolutely appreciated how feminine I was and my "femme-ness". I had finally found my niche in the butch-femme dynamic.

We were both very active in NOW but during the NOW lesbian witch hunts, we both left. However, I never left my feminist consciousness.

I also never left my desire and attraction to butches.

I guess you could call me a sex-positive feminist lesbian femme.

Sachita · 11-04-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Oh yes, handsome stone butch top; there must be fully informed and freely given consent for all things sexual!

I came out in the late 70's too, at which time the lesbians I met everywhere wore flannel shirts, baggy clothing, and they did not at all appreciate the femme that I was. Actually, at a couple of bars and clubs, they kind of laughed at me.

I did not feel like I fit in anywhere until I met my ex-who was stone butch at the time. She absolutely appreciated how feminine I was and my "femme-ness". I had finally found my niche in the butch-femme dynamic.

We were both very active in NOW but during the NOW lesbian witch hunts, we both left. However, I never left my feminist consciousness.

I also never left my desire and attraction to butches.

I guess you could call me a sex-positive feminist lesbian femme.

lol- omg you're bringing back so many memories for me.

I remember when I was 16 going to my first lesbian bar. I had fake ID, of course. Here I am with this long long black hair, big tits and wore the prettiest little sundress. I walked in and everyone was in jeans and button down shirts. They looked at me like I was a fucking alien. No one would approach me or talk to me. My best friend, also queer told me I needed to dress different. So she puts me in a polo shirt, levi's and desert boots. I remembering lesbians always questioning my "gayness" and they assumed I was a bored straight girl. I was attracted to butch then but the only action I got was from the crew of strippers that came in at 2am. lol They loved me!

As I grew older I was a wild child and would think nothing of dancing on bars and taking my clothes off. This didn't sit well with the lesbian feminist who were convinced I was a product of male fascination. But I learn early on that this wasn't such a bad thing and used it to my advantage.

At some point I decided I was wearing heels, makeup, lipstick and that if i wanted a butch dyke I'd have to chase them. They just couldn't refused but i certainly did scare the shit out of them.

persiphone · 11-07-2011, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sachita

lol- omg you're bringing back so many memories for me.

I remember when I was 16 going to my first lesbian bar. I had fake ID, of course. Here I am with this long long black hair, big tits and wore the prettiest little sundress. I walked in and everyone was in jeans and button down shirts. They looked at me like I was a fucking alien. No one would approach me or talk to me. My best friend, also queer told me I needed to dress different. So she puts me in a polo shirt, levi's and desert boots. I remembering lesbians always questioning my "gayness" and they assumed I was a bored straight girl. I was attracted to butch then but the only action I got was from the crew of strippers that came in at 2am. lol They loved me!

As I grew older I was a wild child and would think nothing of dancing on bars and taking my clothes off. This didn't sit well with the lesbian feminist who were convinced I was a product of male fascination. But I learn early on that this wasn't such a bad thing and used it to my advantage.

At some point I decided I was wearing heels, makeup, lipstick and that if i wanted a butch dyke I'd have to chase them. They just couldn't refused but i certainly did scare the shit out of them.

that's so funny cuz i have this experience still today. i walk into a lesbian bar wearing a dress and heels and everyone looks at me like i have 6 heads. awkward!

CherylNYC · 11-07-2011, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by persiphone

that's so funny cuz i have this experience still today. i walk into a lesbian bar wearing a dress and heels and everyone looks at me like i have 6 heads. awkward!

I seem to get the same look when I'm not carrying my motorcycle helmet adorned with a rainbow sticker. Seriously. After a recent accident and injury I had to temporarily change the way I dress, and I haven't been able to ride my motorcycle for stretches of time. Wearing softer pants and shoes to match rather than jeans and riding boots, plus the absence of my helmet which functions as a dyke badge, seems to cause people to assume I'm straight. Because I always rode almost everywhere I went, I haven't felt that ostracizing stare in women's bars and events that my femme sisters always talk about. Until now. Ugh.

Whoops! Derail over.

dykeumentary · 11-07-2011, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I seem to get the same look when I'm not carrying my motorcycle helmet adorned with a rainbow sticker. Seriously. After a recent accident and injury I had to temporarily change the way I dress, and I haven't been able to ride my motorcycle for stretches of time. Wearing softer pants and shoes to match rather than jeans and riding boots, plus the absence of my helmet which functions as a dyke badge, seems to cause people to assume I'm straight. Because I always rode almost everywhere I went, I haven't felt that ostracizing stare in women's bars and events that my femme sisters always talk about. Until now. Ugh.

Whoops! Derail over.

It breaks my butch dyke feminist heart every time I hear that a Femme feels invisible! I know you fierce Femmes can (and do) handle it, so i won't ask if there's anything i could do to help.

Frankly I don't understand how everyone in the room doesn't celebrate when a beautiful woman walks into a space.
I know I celebrate!
I say that i do this as part of my "grassroots activism"... but I have less noble motives, too.

persiphone · 11-07-2011, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I seem to get the same look when I'm not carrying my motorcycle helmet adorned with a rainbow sticker. Seriously. After a recent accident and injury I had to temporarily change the way I dress, and I haven't been able to ride my motorcycle for stretches of time. Wearing softer pants and shoes to match rather than jeans and riding boots, plus the absence of my helmet which functions as a dyke badge, seems to cause people to assume I'm straight. Because I always rode almost everywhere I went, I haven't felt that ostracizing stare in women's bars and events that my femme sisters always talk about. Until now. Ugh.

Whoops! Derail over.

hahahhaahaa @ dyke badge
when i'm wearing black boots, my levis, a t-shirt and a leather jacket i call it my dyke uniform

/hijack

femmeInterrupted · 05-22-2013, 08:44 AM

It is December, 1989. The Montreal Massacre is all over the news. I am watching in the family room, surrounded by my Father, and 4 brothers. I am 20 years old, and devastated by what I am watching on television. I remember my reaction because it was visceral. It was one of the first times I remember crying with outrage and grief, shock, fear...and anger. My father told me (in front of my brothers) that I was being ridiculous and that 'People died every day'. No biggie.

That experience has stayed with me, to this day.

I have been so lucky and privileged to have had (and have) feminist mentors in my life, which spans and is integrated professionally and personally. My consciousness raising came when I began to study in depth, violence against women, feminism, and 'women's issues'. I recall being overwhelmed with a sense of relief and home-coming, as I listened to these brilliant women, Professors, grass-roots activists, feminists, giving voice and language to issues and realities that had previously only swirled around in my mind, a loosely threaded galaxy of feelings and 'wrongness' that was best articulated and explained in language I had a) never learned despite my education and b) herstory I had never learned despite said education.

My 'clicks' continue to happen as I move through this world. The anti-oppression work, of which my feminism is deeply integrated continues. It's a part of who I am, and how I see the world, how I deconstruct and interpret everything that flows past and through me experientially.

It has lead me to the experience the true joy of sisterhood, the true joy of belonging, the solid and affirming joy of friendship and sisterhood with women.

Despite the ugly harsh reality of women's lived realities, I find emotional and intellectual and political sustenance from threads like this, when I get to read what my sisters are sharing, about their own feminism, their own stories and experiences. The learning and difficult places in my self I've sat through when unlearning. Being the youngest in a circle of crones, I've had my ass handed to me, albeit it respectfully and with grace, a number of times

I believe that 'you don't know what you don't know', but I also believe in the responsibility that comes with knowledge once it's yours.

I offer out an appreciation to all my feminist sisters! You all rock!

And when the sun rises we are afraid
it might not remain
when the sun sets we are afraid
it might not rise in the morning
when our stomachs are full we are afraid
of indigestion
when our stomachs are empty we are afraid
we may never eat again
when we are loved we are afraid
love will vanish
when we are alone we are afraid
love will never return
and when we speak we are afraid
our words will not be heard
nor welcomed
but when we are silent
we are still afraid

So it is better to speak
remembering
we were never meant to survive

Audre Lorde

imperfect_cupcake · 05-22-2013, 06:15 PM

My parents brought me up socialist and feminist but I had no idea, really.
when it was concrete, it was, like femmeinterupted, at the Montreal Massacre. I was 20.

However, when I went lezzo, and i went to uni on Vancouver Island I met a bunch of lesbian separatists (who, as people were lovely) and moved in with them. And then the trouble started. I didn't really understand what kind of feminist politics they had. They were more of the Andrea Dworkin sort. And I'm not completely knocking Dworkin, she spoke about educating against rape and making MEN responsible about educating THEMSELVES long before anyone else did.
I did an action against a rapist of a friend of mine, because of one of her papers. We got a group, a big group of women together, and my friend who he had raped invited him to a busy restaurant. We placed the women around the restaurant and when he arrived and slid into the booth, we all stood up, about 15 of us, made a semi circle around him, and called him publically, named and shamed, each one of us, to what he did. My friend stood safely behind us. The waitress called the cops. He was terrified and freaked out. It was fantastic. He then tried to sue for slander and it didn't stick. which, of course, made his rapist ass even more public.

But man, some of Dwarkin's shit was whack and really oppressive of other women.

When I moved in with those women, I started to think "oh. maybe I'm not a feminist. I don't believe those things at ALL."
Then I decided to take femminist application courses, into the social and biological science courses I was taking. Those have been, to date, the hardest courses I have ever taken.

And it showed me I was indeed a feminist, just one that didn't believe the same things that the lesbians I lived with believed. I moved out as I felt pretty squashed and judged living there. I though all lesbians and feminists, especially those who weren't butch-femme were like that. And in the end, they got pretty mean. But once I started traveling and meeting lots of dykes, queers and bisexuals in different cities and different countries, and learning about the sex wars - I realised I could actually a) call myself a lesbian, I was allowed to and b) call myself a feminist, I was allowed to.

I still do have fights with people about porn and sex work and feminism. There is a massive difference between Independant workers, who work for themselves, set their own wages, their own hours and their own services and those being trafficked.

I personally like being objectified sexually - IF I GIVE MY CONSENT FIRST - to people I am attracted to. it's hawwwwwt! woof.
And I personally don't mind being objectified - if I give my consent first - within the boundaries of paid work. And ONLY during that set time. And there are a LOT of super hard, bitch-enforced rules about what does and does not happen. And someone breaks that rule? GONE. No negotiating, no apologies, no nada. Gone.
Working as a sex worker has done Mad Skillz Development for my ability to say "fuck right off, and keep fucking off" (aka "No") and stand up for myself against pre-programming as a polite and obedient girl that has to make sure everyone is ok. It has helped no end to my own personal issues of care taking (that is an issue with many women - you have to be needless and wantless and care for everything if it's sad or hurt or tired and screw your own needs).

Now I don't care if someone is blubbing a river and has their intestines on the floor, if you pass over one of my lines, you are gone.

And it has stopped my fear of men. I used to be terrified of them in a bar if they hit on me. Now I know that they bluff charge and being sincerely unafraid and knowing that I'm capable of kicking their ass and facing them down gives me more confidence. That confidence has helped me keep the idiots away. I no longer have that big whirling red light attracting idiots to me.

I hate how programmed girls are to be so submissive, polite and above all, don't be rude. Most of my issues with men have been because although my parents were for women's rights, my mom still has her programming and above all else, I had to suck it up and be polite. No matter what. Do not shame yourself by being rude.

That's what got me in so much trouble.

it's ok to be rude. it's absolutely ok, as a girl, to offend. it's totally ok to have someone get angry, be upset, and be hurt or offended by something I've said or done. it's also not my responsibility to look after them if they are. I am not going to be branded as a scarlet hussy and the universe will not implode.

just someone is offended. that's it. And that's absolutely ok.

I love feminism.

imperfect_cupcake · 05-22-2013, 10:06 PM

Don't forget about the Feminist Porn Awards in Toronto!!

here's an article on Feminist Porn:
5 Ways to Ensure That Your Porn is Ethically Feminist

Tuff Stuff · 08-31-2015, 10:47 PM

My culture felt very anti-woman/girl to me...I could not be me..at the tender age of 5 my wanna be little boyfriend (and quite possibly my future husband) brought me some flowers once and I threw them on the ground and laughed at him...I was his first love,made him cry a lot of times *shrugs*.
I knew I was not and never would be the girly girl others wanted me to be,and I made sure of that...I fell in love with women of all ages,body types and skin colors..I loved them all..pretty much feel the same way today.

I usually get along well with most feminist...except maybe the extreme ones...they think i'm too manly.

10-26-2011, 02:33 AM	#41
Bad_boi Member How Do You Identify?: Transman (male) Preferred Pronoun?: He, Him, His ect. Relationship Status: Handsome bastard. Tournaments Won: 1 Join Date: May 2010 Location: Seattle Posts: 727 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 122 Thanked 1,824 Times in 499 Posts Rep Power: 0	I said nothing offensive. If you are taking offense I whole heartedly appologize that you feel that way. I know full well that I cannot argue my veiws on here anymore. It is always 10 to 1. Me being the one. I have a valid point and so does everyone else. I am sick and tired of everyone ganging up on me and raging at me for my opinions and experiences. I am tired of being singled out. It seems every time the dash site crashes and I wind up here I wind up in some kind of drama. I am sick of this.. I never said anything against women or feminists. I said something against the feminists that are overly angry at people for their positive actions twards women. The fact that certain people in here are making a mountain over a molehill further proves my point. TLDR: I am not attacking anyone so please stop attacking me. Please stop misinterpenetrating what I am saying and don't jump to conclusions. Last edited by Bad_boi; 10-26-2011 at 02:45 AM. Reason: I can grammar :D

11-03-2011, 09:01 PM	#43
dykeumentary Member How Do You Identify?: butch dyke Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 449 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 341 Thanked 1,547 Times in 359 Posts Rep Power: 19160662	bumping this important thread Also.... I was surprised to find myself conflicted about posting body photos to be objectified. I did post, sort of as an exercise in pushing myself. I guess the feminist in me has gotten comfortable with looking a Femmes when they present themselves to be "viewed" that way. But it was a little uncomfortable for me. Thoughts on this? __________________ The Origins of Butch & Femme (a retelling): https://youtu.be/U7VkXpZl4Mk Watch more of my funny butch/femme movies here: https://www.youtube.com/dykeumentary1

11-04-2011, 07:06 AM	#44
Anya Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Lesbian non-stone femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, her Relationship Status: Committed to being good to myself Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: West Coast Posts: 8,258 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 39,306 Thanked 40,791 Times in 7,290 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Objectify vs. Appreciation I have several thoughts about this issue actually and may appear to be random but are all related-or will be in the end. I am a feminist. I am a lesbian. I am not only attracted to a woman's mind but am attracted to her sexually. A woman's body is beautiful to me. Looking at pictures of butches, I appreciate not only their handsome beauty but they also turn me on very much. I also like to occasionally look at lesbian porn. Not the fake lesbian porn made by bio males but porn actually produced and directed by lesbians. I have even, on occasion, looked at gay male porn and found it arousing ( movie "The Kids are All Right" anyone?). I also think that when we are objectifying ourselves, as in the Butches and Girl Pinup threads, there is an element of humor and joy to it. Feminism can also have humor and joyful play; I do not think they are mutually exclusive! I remember the feminist protests against porn. I never participated in them because I felt they were grossly misguided when there were so many other, much more important issues of concern. From Wiki, regarding the porn wars: "Women Against Pornography (WAP) was a radical feminist activist group based out of New York City and an influential force in the anti-pornography movement of the late 1970s and the 1980s. WAP was the best known of a number of feminist anti-pornography groups that were active throughout the United States and the anglophone world, mainly from the late 1970s through the early 1990s. After previous failed attempts to start a broad feminist anti-pornography group in New York City, WAP was started in 1978. WAP quickly drew widespread support for its anti-pornography campaign, and in late 1979 held a March on Times Square that included over 5000 supporters. Their anti-pornography activism around Times Square also brought in unexpected financial support from the Mayor's office, theater owners, and other parties with an interest in the gentrification of Times Square. WAP became known through their anti-pornography informational tours of sex shops and pornographic theaters in Times Square. In the 1980s, WAP began to focus more on lobbying and legislative efforts against pornography, particularly in support of civil-rights-oriented antipornography legislation. They were also active in testifying before the Meese Commission and some of their advocacy of a civil-rights based anti-pornography model found its way into the final recommendations of the commission. It became less active in the 1990s and faded out of existence in the mid-1990s. The positions of the group were controversial. Civil libertarians opposed WAP and similar groups, holding that the legislative approaches WAP advocated amounted to censorship. Sex-positive feminists held that feminist campaigns against pornography were misdirected and ultimately threatened sexual freedoms and free speech rights in a way that would be ultimately detrimental toward women, gay people, and sexual minorities. WAP became involved in some particularly heated debates and skirmishes with sex-positive feminists, particularly in the events surrounding the 1982 Barnard Conference. These events were battles in what became known as the Feminist Sex Wars of the late 1970s and 1980s." Bottom line, I believe we can be feminists and make our own porn, shoot our own photos, we can appreciate and love the beauty that is woman, femme or butch (whichever turns us on); in all of her glory-clothed or unclothed and it does not make us any less of a feminist. __________________ ~Anya~ Democracy Dies in Darkness ~Washington Post "...I'm deeply concerned by recently adopted policies which punish children for their parents’ actions ... The thought that any State would seek to deter parents by inflicting such abuse on children is unconscionable." UN Human Rights commissioner

11-04-2011, 11:41 AM	#45
dykeumentary Member How Do You Identify?: butch dyke Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NJ Posts: 449 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 341 Thanked 1,547 Times in 359 Posts Rep Power: 19160662	Hi Anya, thanks for your thoughts. I remember hearing about those debates, but mostly from the perspective of my uncles, who all had subscriptions to Playboy. They also expressed their hope that the ladies would resolve their dispute by means of a national hot-oil-wrestling tournament....) So i came out in that culture (not very fun) and my first gay community was working class softball dykes. Many of them had body issues and wore ill-fitting baggy men's clothes. I almost decided I must not be lesbian, because I wasn't sexually attracted to them at all. So when I started to find lesbians who were pretty and feminine, I got scared about my feelings. (but became reassured that I wanted to have sex with women!). I wanted to be with a feminine woman, but I didn't know how to "be". When I was growing up in New Jersey in the 1970s, I always thought the hookers my uncles would meet at the bowling alley were the most sexy and beautiful women in the world. (ok, part of me still does ). But my innate sense of fairness knew that I shouldn't treat women the way I saw them treated in my town. This was further complicated by my being a dyed-in-the-wool stone top. I didn't know anyone who was even talking about sex, and the few that were talking (usually very late at the pot luck) were glowing about how "equal" and "reciprocally touching" it was. So there I was trying to grow away from my culture of sexism, and some of the people around me we lesbian separatists, many hated their bodies, and not many were in their power as sexual people.' We were all trying to figure out how to be different kinds of women than our mothers were. I think I'm rambling on and on here. Sorry. I guess I'm saying that I love women's bodies, and i love to celebrate them in word and deed! It's been a journey to recognize what makes sense and what's oppressive. I guess the bottom line (and the top!) is fully informed and freely given CONSENT. __________________ The Origins of Butch & Femme (a retelling): https://youtu.be/U7VkXpZl4Mk Watch more of my funny butch/femme movies here: https://www.youtube.com/dykeumentary1

11-04-2011, 12:16 PM	#46
Sachita Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Goddess Relationship Status: Completely in love Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Southern Virginia Posts: 3,225 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,564 Thanked 8,994 Times in 2,249 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	when I was a young teen I became friends with a hardcore feminist lesbian wiccan group. I've spent most of my life rebelling against patriarchy in some way or another. Some points of my life more then others. I just don't fit into the typical feminist mold. I would consider myself leaning more radical and my true core views would piss some people off but try as I may to free my mind, I just can't deny my feelings. __________________ You either like me or you don't. It took me Twenty-something years to learn how to love myself, I don't have that kinda time to convince somebody else. ~ Daniel Franzese

10-26-2011, 04:06 AM	#42
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,830 Times in 3,200 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	There are several veins of feminist thought as well as generational differences. The Feminist Waves continue too flourish. We are in the development of a Fourth Wave right now. Feminism is elastic and speaks to each generation based upon what is relevant to each generation. And this old time Second Waver has no problem integrating more contemporary ideology into thought and actions.

11-04-2011, 12:33 PM	#47
ScandalAndy Member How Do You Identify?: human femme spitfire Preferred Pronoun?: she/her Relationship Status: it's official! Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: east coast USA Posts: 1,167 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,758 Thanked 3,220 Times in 753 Posts Rep Power: 21474850	I was in first grade (7 years old) when I had my moment. There was a boy in my class who was the only person who could keep up with me academically. We wrote our second grade play together (it was about dinosaurs and a time machine, and a bunch of child archaeologists), had friendly competitions / discussions regarding schoolwork, and interviewed for the gifted school at the same time. I told my parents I was going to marry that particular boy because he was named "Jesse Anderson", and that way I would never have to change my last name. There has always been a part of me that knew I could never capitulate to patriarchal restrictions on my life. __________________ The joy of discovery is certainly the liveliest that the mind of man can ever feel. - Claude Bernard (1813-78)

05-22-2013, 08:44 AM	#54
femmeInterrupted Member How Do You Identify?: Queer femme Preferred Pronoun?: she works out well ;) Relationship Status: Happily married. Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ontario Posts: 812 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,885 Thanked 3,221 Times in 666 Posts Rep Power: 21474851	i LOVE this thread! :) So happy to have found it :) It is December, 1989. The Montreal Massacre is all over the news. I am watching in the family room, surrounded by my Father, and 4 brothers. I am 20 years old, and devastated by what I am watching on television. I remember my reaction because it was visceral. It was one of the first times I remember crying with outrage and grief, shock, fear...and anger. My father told me (in front of my brothers) that I was being ridiculous and that 'People died every day'. No biggie. That experience has stayed with me, to this day. I have been so lucky and privileged to have had (and have) feminist mentors in my life, which spans and is integrated professionally and personally. My consciousness raising came when I began to study in depth, violence against women, feminism, and 'women's issues'. I recall being overwhelmed with a sense of relief and home-coming, as I listened to these brilliant women, Professors, grass-roots activists, feminists, giving voice and language to issues and realities that had previously only swirled around in my mind, a loosely threaded galaxy of feelings and 'wrongness' that was best articulated and explained in language I had a) never learned despite my education and b) herstory I had never learned despite said education. My 'clicks' continue to happen as I move through this world. The anti-oppression work, of which my feminism is deeply integrated continues. It's a part of who I am, and how I see the world, how I deconstruct and interpret everything that flows past and through me experientially. It has lead me to the experience the true joy of sisterhood, the true joy of belonging, the solid and affirming joy of friendship and sisterhood with women. Despite the ugly harsh reality of women's lived realities, I find emotional and intellectual and political sustenance from threads like this, when I get to read what my sisters are sharing, about their own feminism, their own stories and experiences. The learning and difficult places in my self I've sat through when unlearning. Being the youngest in a circle of crones, I've had my ass handed to me, albeit it respectfully and with grace, a number of times I believe that 'you don't know what you don't know', but I also believe in the responsibility that comes with knowledge once it's yours. I offer out an appreciation to all my feminist sisters! You all rock! And when the sun rises we are afraid it might not remain when the sun sets we are afraid it might not rise in the morning when our stomachs are full we are afraid of indigestion when our stomachs are empty we are afraid we may never eat again when we are loved we are afraid love will vanish when we are alone we are afraid love will never return and when we speak we are afraid our words will not be heard nor welcomed but when we are silent we are still afraid So it is better to speak remembering we were never meant to survive Audre Lorde __________________ "If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us walk together." Lila Watson You say you love rain, but you use an umbrella to walk under it. You say you love sun, but you seek shade when its shining. You say you love wind, but when its comes you close your window. So that's why I'm scared, when you say you love me. -- Bob Marley

05-22-2013, 06:15 PM	#55
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,727 Times in 1,613 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	My parents brought me up socialist and feminist but I had no idea, really. when it was concrete, it was, like femmeinterupted, at the Montreal Massacre. I was 20. However, when I went lezzo, and i went to uni on Vancouver Island I met a bunch of lesbian separatists (who, as people were lovely) and moved in with them. And then the trouble started. I didn't really understand what kind of feminist politics they had. They were more of the Andrea Dworkin sort. And I'm not completely knocking Dworkin, she spoke about educating against rape and making MEN responsible about educating THEMSELVES long before anyone else did. I did an action against a rapist of a friend of mine, because of one of her papers. We got a group, a big group of women together, and my friend who he had raped invited him to a busy restaurant. We placed the women around the restaurant and when he arrived and slid into the booth, we all stood up, about 15 of us, made a semi circle around him, and called him publically, named and shamed, each one of us, to what he did. My friend stood safely behind us. The waitress called the cops. He was terrified and freaked out. It was fantastic. He then tried to sue for slander and it didn't stick. which, of course, made his rapist ass even more public. But man, some of Dwarkin's shit was whack and really oppressive of other women. When I moved in with those women, I started to think "oh. maybe I'm not a feminist. I don't believe those things at ALL." Then I decided to take femminist application courses, into the social and biological science courses I was taking. Those have been, to date, the hardest courses I have ever taken. And it showed me I was indeed a feminist, just one that didn't believe the same things that the lesbians I lived with believed. I moved out as I felt pretty squashed and judged living there. I though all lesbians and feminists, especially those who weren't butch-femme were like that. And in the end, they got pretty mean. But once I started traveling and meeting lots of dykes, queers and bisexuals in different cities and different countries, and learning about the sex wars - I realised I could actually a) call myself a lesbian, I was allowed to and b) call myself a feminist, I was allowed to. I still do have fights with people about porn and sex work and feminism. There is a massive difference between Independant workers, who work for themselves, set their own wages, their own hours and their own services and those being trafficked. I personally like being objectified sexually - IF I GIVE MY CONSENT FIRST - to people I am attracted to. it's hawwwwwt! woof. And I personally don't mind being objectified - if I give my consent first - within the boundaries of paid work. And ONLY during that set time. And there are a LOT of super hard, bitch-enforced rules about what does and does not happen. And someone breaks that rule? GONE. No negotiating, no apologies, no nada. Gone. Working as a sex worker has done Mad Skillz Development for my ability to say "fuck right off, and keep fucking off" (aka "No") and stand up for myself against pre-programming as a polite and obedient girl that has to make sure everyone is ok. It has helped no end to my own personal issues of care taking (that is an issue with many women - you have to be needless and wantless and care for everything if it's sad or hurt or tired and screw your own needs). Now I don't care if someone is blubbing a river and has their intestines on the floor, if you pass over one of my lines, you are gone. And it has stopped my fear of men. I used to be terrified of them in a bar if they hit on me. Now I know that they bluff charge and being sincerely unafraid and knowing that I'm capable of kicking their ass and facing them down gives me more confidence. That confidence has helped me keep the idiots away. I no longer have that big whirling red light attracting idiots to me. I hate how programmed girls are to be so submissive, polite and above all, don't be rude. Most of my issues with men have been because although my parents were for women's rights, my mom still has her programming and above all else, I had to suck it up and be polite. No matter what. Do not shame yourself by being rude. That's what got me in so much trouble. it's ok to be rude. it's absolutely ok, as a girl, to offend. it's totally ok to have someone get angry, be upset, and be hurt or offended by something I've said or done. it's also not my responsibility to look after them if they are. I am not going to be branded as a scarlet hussy and the universe will not implode. just someone is offended. that's it. And that's absolutely ok. I love feminism.

05-22-2013, 10:06 PM	#56
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,727 Times in 1,613 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	Don't forget about the Feminist Porn Awards in Toronto!! here's an article on Feminist Porn: 5 Ways to Ensure That Your Porn is Ethically Feminist

08-31-2015, 10:47 PM	#57
Tuff Stuff Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Woman Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Married Join Date: May 2013 Location: California Posts: 695 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 904 Thanked 1,318 Times in 506 Posts Rep Power: 9408452	I knew waaay back then... My culture felt very anti-woman/girl to me...I could not be me..at the tender age of 5 my wanna be little boyfriend (and quite possibly my future husband) brought me some flowers once and I threw them on the ground and laughed at him...I was his first love,made him cry a lot of times shrugs. I knew I was not and never would be the girly girl others wanted me to be,and I made sure of that...I fell in love with women of all ages,body types and skin colors..I loved them all..pretty much feel the same way today. I usually get along well with most feminist...except maybe the extreme ones...they think i'm too manly.