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Old 10-18-2017, 07:23 AM   #61
Kobi
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Originally Posted by FTM4femme View Post
I have a question for the butches mostly but anyone is willing to comment if you have feedback. I am a FTM myself who obviously used to identify as butch. One thing I noticed was that I would always feel this masculinity competition between me and another butch I was around. I am wondering if this is something true butches feel as well or is this a characteristic of FTMs? Thoughts? I felt like for myself, I donít experience that feeling anymore around butches but only usually other FTms or cis males. I am not usually an uber competitive person so itís an odd concept for me. I donít mean to offend anyone it is just something that I have noticed and wondered but never asked anyone.

I'm wondering if what you are referring to as masculine competition is what I refer to as to as identity posturing.

To me, identity posturing is just a process of people getting comfortable in their own skin. They may have declared themselves to be butch, but now they have to figure out what that means, how that looks, how that behaves etc.

It's an internal process, I think, but it is heavily influenced by external things. The more butches someone is exposed to, the more variations they see. More variations mean more things to try on, see if it fits kind of thing.

Eventually, people find what fits them, they settle into a peace with themselves and others.

Thats what I have noticed with butches. I dont know if FTM go thru the same kind of thing.


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Old 10-18-2017, 04:20 PM   #62
Esme nha Maire
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Originally Posted by girl_dee View Post
thank you!

i have been called out about not being feminine enough and that weighs on me.

iíve moved on but there are moments.....
Awww.. try no to worry about it dee, I'm sure your partner thinks you're just fine as you are! :-}

I don't feel any need to compete with anyone with regard to butchness or femmeness. I know full well that I can no longer carry off femme visually so well as I could thirty years ago, and I've stopped feeling freaked out about being mistaken for a guy occasionally if I'm not wearing a skirt (which is nearly always, these days). I can see why some folk nowadays suppose me to be a butch - walking boots, jeans, tank-top, and either a long warm waistcoat with deep pockets or a biker jacket. Yet I always carry a handbag, and have shoulder length hair, and tend to use a quick dash of foundation and some lippy every day. And vanilla perfume. My attitudes toward other women more closely resemble a butches, and yet I'm innately a wallflower (hey, I had years of simply being pretty and waiting to see who got lured in by my appearance! It worked!), though I've been working hard on trying to overcome that. But if anyone chides me for being a wussy butch or a not very femme femme, I'll simply laugh in their face.

I'm a (hopefully) fine example of me, and I'm only competing with myself to be the best me I can be.

Harking back to an earlier bit of this thread, I've been pondering the terms masculinity/femininity and butch/femme. I can't quite explain it properly yet, but I've a feeling that seeing butchness in women as being female masculinity is kinda backwards somehow. I'm just thinking aloud here, no offence to anyone is intended - but I'd say that masculinity is male butchness, just as femininity is female femmeness. So... butch and femme are the more fundamental, but when butchness is expressed by a male or femmeness by a female, it then fits the societal sterotype of masculinity/femininity respectively. I think. Does that make sense? I'd be particularly interested to know what any of the FTM gents here think on this.

I came to this thought whilst considering my former discomfort at being occasionally thought butch. I came to the conclusion that it's not the butchness I mind so such as the implication that that somehow involves masculinity (which, given my background, is anathema to me!). Which raises the question, of course, as to whether my personal feelings have warped my perception to the point of mangling the language simply to make myself feel more comfortable. I don't think so, but please do say if you think I'm nuts and have done just that!
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Old 10-18-2017, 04:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire View Post
Harking back to an earlier bit of this thread, I've been pondering the terms masculinity/femininity and butch/femme. I can't quite explain it properly yet, but I've a feeling that seeing butchness in women as being female masculinity is kinda backwards somehow. I'm just thinking aloud here, no offence to anyone is intended - but I'd say that masculinity is male butchness, just as femininity is female femmeness. So... butch and femme are the more fundamental, but when butchness is expressed by a male or femmeness by a female, it then fits the societal sterotype of masculinity/femininity respectively. I think. Does that make sense? I'd be particularly interested to know what any of the FTM gents here think on this.

I came to this thought whilst considering my former discomfort at being occasionally thought butch. I came to the conclusion that it's not the butchness I mind so such as the implication that that somehow involves masculinity (which, given my background, is anathema to me!). Which raises the question, of course, as to whether my personal feelings have warped my perception to the point of mangling the language simply to make myself feel more comfortable. I don't think so, but please do say if you think I'm nuts and have done just that!
For me personally, no I do not view my masculinity as male butchness. I do view male as a biological and not a gender term - some people do use it as both. I don't consider myself to be male - either as my gender or biological sex.

I am a masculine female - which for me is the essence of what butch is (other butches have their own definitions that are different than mine).

To me saying male butchness sounds like imitating male, when I view my female masculinity as being my own and not something I am getting from males. I may look somewhat male, act similar to males in some ways, my sexuality is very similar to males in some ways, etc., but I grew up female and have experienced the world as a lesbian/queer female, which to me is an entirely different experience. I move through the world now as a butch not a man. I am not offended at all, it just doesn't fit for me.
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:38 PM   #64
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For me personally, no I do not view my masculinity as male butchness. I do view male as a biological and not a gender term - some people do use it as both. I don't consider myself to be male - either as my gender or biological sex.

I am a masculine female - which for me is the essence of what butch is (other butches have their own definitions that are different than mine).

To me saying male butchness sounds like imitating male, when I view my female masculinity as being my own and not something I am getting from males. I may look somewhat male, act similar to males in some ways, my sexuality is very similar to males in some ways, etc., but I grew up female and have experienced the world as a lesbian/queer female, which to me is an entirely different experience. I move through the world now as a butch not a man. I am not offended at all, it just doesn't fit for me.

Interesting, thank you, BullDog! Although I think you may have misunderstood what I wastrying to say, as I emphatically do not see butch women as being male in the slightest. See, to me, saying 'masculine female' seems to imply imitating the male, and now I've come across, albeit very briefly, a few women on the butch spectrum, I'd say that they didn't come across as imitating males at all - they were undeniably butch though. So what I'm trying to get at is that I'm thinking that instead of defining butchness in terms of 'degree of masculinity' (which to me makes it seem as though butch women are aping men), it ought to be that butchness is a thing in and of itself, no masculinity required.

Instead, I would argue, when a woman exhibits butchness she is, quite simply being a butch woman - but when a man exhibits butchness we might think of them as 'a butch man', but more commonly we'd skip that thought and use the term 'masculine', which means 'pertaining to maleness',and that, I would argue, is inappropriate when talking of women. So I am arguing that masculinity is simply the stereotypical expression of butchness in men, because the stereotype, for society as a whole, is that butchness is most often associated with males. There is no word meaning 'the stereotypical expression of butchnesss in women', and I don't think there needs to be, either, because butch women are a minority expression of butchness in society as a whole, and therefore aren't stereotypical in society as a whole.

In short - men are butch in their way, women are butch in their way, and whilst there are similarities, the underlying difference in sex/gender identity makes a difference. No need to imply that butch women are appropriating masculinity or trying to be like men at all. Whereas doing things the other way around, by defining butchness in terms of masculinity, may be, I think, what perpetuates the myth that butch women are somehow trying to be men - which is, of course, utter rubbish.

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Old 10-18-2017, 10:53 PM   #65
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Hi Esme nha Maire, Oh okay I think I did somewhat misunderstand you, although I didn't think you were saying butch women were male. Sorry I didn't get a lot of sleep, so I am probably not thinking real clearly.

I personally do see myself as a masculine female and my masculinity being distinct from male masculinity just through sheer life experience being different and being queer. But I also do agree masculinity can be a problematic term and our language tends to fail us when it comes to trying to describe and talk about gender. Thank you for your posts, I really enjoy them!
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