Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[AtLast]

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

Great idea, AtLast! I'm hopeful.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

Great idea, AtLast! I'm hopeful.

Thank you, Liam. It dawned on me that so many here might just have a completely different real-time experience as friends and allies that just doesn't get reflected much. Which is so sad. My reality is way far from the experience here and on the old site.

We sit on panels, eat dinner together, try to educate, have brews together, share families with each other, have grown up and graduated high school and college together, talk about fears of a society that hates us all, talk about fears of surgeries and fear about what love will be like, if ENDA will really matter, etc......


Just seems like there is space on the Planet to heal, connect and just be people!

[Sam]

Great idea AtLast.

[Julien]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

My hopes are that this thread brings some real communication about how Butches and Transmen as well as Inter-gendered people can better interact as friends and build support networks.

We are often in political spaces together working toward education, important legislative civil rights matters, health care issues and other matters, yet, here, our friendship gets polarized often.

I really want to address why we seem to walk this very unsteady path when some of us are each others closest friends and allies. For me, it gets really hard on the site when I feel like I need to stick up for myself as a butch woman, but know that just a few buzz words might start another gender-war. In some ways, this makes sense because we all come from many backgrounds and experiences- often pain ridden in just trying to be who we are. No matter how we identify.

Everyone is welcome to post thoughts here (this is just not directed at ideas from butches and Transmen or inter-gendered folks).

There is one rule, however- civility. If we can't do this without being civil, I will just ask that the thread be closed. I don't want this to go down the path of self-destruction. I don't want it in the Red Zone as that would be totally counter intuitive to the purpose here.

This is aimed at friendship and communication values and interaction, not pronoun IDENTIFICATION, butch slamming, trans/IG slamming, etc. It is about how we can talk to one another and aid each other in a gender-ignorant society and not draw lines between ourselves.

This isn't about theoretical propositions, it is about friendship and relationship building.

I'm asking that if someone needs clarification, please ask for it before going off on someone (which I hope just doesn't happen here). It isn't always easy to be clear in these matters, so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt before taking issue with each other.

Please leave any personal grudges at the door, this isn’t the place for them.

I'm hopeful.... are you?

Great idea and a positive step forward. Good for you. I'm with you on this matter. Yes I am hopeful as well.

I think that we all need the space to talk without fear of assumptions about who we are and what our, or should I say my, position is. I don't want to speak for anyone else. Thank you for the forum.

[waxnrope]

Thanks for starting the thread, AtLast. um, I haven't a clue as to what to say though! Should we do introductions, tell our stories, or what. I mean, I am thinking about how I bond face to face with people... say little things, with humor, about myself ... see what response I get and if there's anything forthcoming from the other person. Back and forth, like. Anyway, not sure how you want to do this, so I'll just repeat myself and say thanks for starting this ...

[Corkey]

AtLast, I think this could very well be the start of a good discussion. It is my hope that we all can come to realize we are all the same, human, yes?

[Darth Denkay]

AtLastHome,

Thank you for starting this thread.

There are a number of threads on this site pertaining specifically to IDs, whether it be femme, woman, lesbian, transman, butch, male-identified - I know there are many more. It seems to me that this type of discussion is more prevalent here than on the dash-site, although I may just be noticing it more here. These dialogues are important, for sure. Identities are presumably what brought us to this site in the first place. But I sometimes wonder if more emphasis is placed on them than is necessary, at least across the site as a whole.

On a thread dedicated to IDs of course they will be the focus. On threads not dedicated to them, it seems as though they aren't as important (notice I'm not saying they don't matter but the emphasis, to me, is lower). For instance, I started the Broadway thread. When I read a post, if it's from someone I don't know too well, I don't generally check to see how they identify, other than if I need to check pronoun preference. In that instance, I don't see how ID matters so much.

Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while - how much difference is there really between IDs. Since this thread is specifically targeting butches and transmen I'll focus there. Of course there are differences, but in many cases I don't think they can be qualified. For instance, many butches here identify as women and others don't. We likely share many experiences growing up and coming to embrace our identity, but how do we really differ? Sure, some of us embrace woman, some don't but also don't embrace man, some embrace male but not man, and others embrace man. We all have an inner sense of what identity feels right to us. But if I am dialoguing with a butch woman, in most cases does that distinction matter? Who am I more similar to, a butch woman or a male-identified butch. I have no idea. But I do believe we share many of the same experiences so in many cases I don't think the distinction is necessary.

I am NOT suggesting that IDs aren't important. I am NOT suggesting that it really doesn't matter what pronouns we use - it absolutely does. But we seem so intent on delineating the IDs and not recognizing the potential for friendships, support, camaraderie. We all came to this site, I assume, because we shared an identity, because we found others like us. When did the differences become more important than the similarities?

[AtLast]

When a close butch friend decides to transition- an example of what might be discussed in the thread…..

Sometimes I really think that we don’t look at just the interpersonal side of friendships and transitioning of a close friend and what the ramifications are for our friendship. And if we did, a lot of strife could be avoided.

I have had very close butch friends who struggled in our childhood with really being men and just not having the right body. Due to being born in the early 50’s, there are a lot of things about availability of support, medical and psychological support that differ from today, but, the emotional impact between friends, one identifying as a masculine woman and the other as male probably remains the same.

For me, even though it was clear that my buddies needed to transition to have a more congruent persona, I did feel loss in terms of the fact that they (for a time), needed to move to trans friends pretty much exclusively. Consequently, I felt a little kicked to the curve simply because we stopped doing the things we always shared as buddies. It felt a lot like when a good friend gets involved romantically (and you are not) and they spend almost all of their time with their gf. Haven’t we all gone through this? Much more so for me as a young person. Later in life, this isn’t as true. My friends (as well as myself) make an effort to keep time for friends/buddies even if in the throws of passion!

I think that sometimes these kinds of things can begin to flow over into defensive posturing between butch women and trans friends. That sucks, but it feels human to me. The problem is recognizing what is really going on and talking to each other. To me, it makes sense that even though I get transitioning, the fact remains that I have never felt male or that I am a man.

I have masculine traits and am a butch, but remain a woman. My childhood trans friends certainly understood this and I understood them but, I still believe there is a missing link with the actual internal processes of our gender identity. So, their needing to hang more with other transguys makes sense (especially in terms of being able to talk on a different level about T ,surgeries, etc). I feel this way even with a professional background that brought me more information than just folks outside of queerdom, yet, I don’t have a problem at all with accepting this missing link. Yet, we have a friendship that matters. Friendships do have to be nurtured. Sometimes, I think that not recognizing the missing link really causes some problems that don’t have to happen.

So this is what I am trying to get at in the thread. Our processes and interactions, not to be or not to be…

Note- of course there are differing trans positions/identifications. My personal experience with people close to me just happens to be with FtMs and an inter-gendered cousin. And I am not going to talk from outside of my experience. There are trans masculine butches, for example, and not all butches are female-identified. If these fit for you… bring this up! I can’t speak for anyone else.

Yup, we talk about just about everything else except our human interactions with each other!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

...Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while - how much difference is there really between IDs. Since this thread is specifically targeting butches and transmen I'll focus there. Of course there are differences, but in many cases I don't think they can be qualified. For instance, many butches here identify as women and others don't. We likely share many experiences growing up and coming to embrace our identity, but how do we really differ? Sure, some of us embrace woman, some don't but also don't embrace man, some embrace male but not man, and others embrace man. We all have an inner sense of what identity feels right to us. But if I am dialoguing with a butch woman, in most cases does that distinction matter? Who am I more similar to, a butch woman or a male-identified butch. I have no idea. But I do believe we share many of the same experiences so in many cases I don't think the distinction is necessary....

I just wanted to highlight this here, Darth, as it is something that I have thought about too. We spend SO much time looking at the differences (or thinking we are), and not focusing on the commonalities between the butch IDs (and for that matter, transmen).