Islam & the Muslim faith- banishing myths

[Isadora]

My father-in-law was of the Bahá'í Faith, also a form of Islam. "Bahá'u'lláh taught that there is one God whose successive revelations of His will to humanity have been the chief civilizing force in history. The agents of this process have been the Divine Messengers whom people have seen chiefly as the founders of separate religious systems but whose common purpose has been to bring the human race to spiritual and moral maturity.

Humanity is now coming of age. It is this that makes possible the unification of the human family and the building of a peaceful, global society. Among the principles which the Bahá'í Faith promotes as vital to the achievement of this goal are

* the abandonment of all forms of prejudice
* assurance to women of full equality of opportunity with men
* recognition of the unity and relativity of religious truth
* the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth
* the realization of universal education
* the responsibility of each person to independently search for truth
* the establishment of a global commonwealth of nations
* recognition that true religion is in harmony with reason and the pursuit of scientific knowledge"*

I used to love going to the Temple in Wilmette, Illinois to meditate. Everyone was welcomed.


*http://info.bahai.org/bahaullah-basic-teachings.html

[Miss Scarlett]

I wish the media would stop referring to the proposed Islamic Community Center as a mosque. There's a HUGE difference.They also need a geography lesson - it's NOT at Ground Zero.

They just did a story on one of our local TV stations about a new mosque being built down in Rock Hill, SC right on main street. They've had no trouble. Very interesting when you consider how things were there about 40 or so years ago...

There was an interesting piece on NPR yesterday:

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcr...ryId=129381552

[Rook]

On PBS, right now, east coast , they're giving a documentary called "Veiled Voices" discussing how 3 different modern muslim women make a Difference in Islam & the World.
It's worth a gander if you still have some nagging questions related.

[Jude]

Originally Posted by Rook

Hi,
I don't have a Degree in Islamic Studies *yet*, but I was raised muslim, Salaf..
I won't pretend to know it all or be the voice of authority, since my mother happily snuck behind my fathers back continuously so I could have a wealth of knowledge in other Religions/Covens so I could make a decision {if any} later in Life...
Any mistakes I make, I will correct if I can.

That being said,
Practicing Muslims everywhere are observing Ramadan at Press time of this Reply, it will Continue until September 8th.
Considering the Islamic Calendar is Lunar, the dates of different "Holidays" {there's not many} tend to rotate, I loved when it all landed in December..
It's easier to Fast/pray in cool weather {shorter days too}...
During the Last Week of Ramadan, devout Muslims will actually Camp out in their Respective Mosques..
There's food to break fast at sunset, I used to eat Figs , Dates and Milk dabbed with Honey to break Fasting.
All Muslims involved pray until the wee hours before Dawn, in hopes of Lailat ul-Kadr..The specific night The Prophet Mohammed {p.b.u.h} received the First verses of the Qu'ran, al-Fatiha,


Women are, of course, encouraged to stay home, but it is not expressly forbidden for them to spend this time at the Mosque,
The reason for this is, if she's a Mother, her children will need tending {some hire babysitters} so, rather than have the burden of worrying over the children instead of praying, they're "excused", they do pray, and it's well known, you do not need a Mosque to pray..
The only time it's expressly forbidden for a woman to attend is if she's having her period.
Can't touch the Qu'ran either.
Can't have sex even after sunset until she's "done".
Mind you, there are Feminist Muslims, and even they can see the logic for the most part.
Some will ....and I've witnessed this...take their kids with them, to participate.
Even with a daycare, it was slightly distracting, and that is upsetting to some, because they must concentrate on Prayer and Services.
Some Mosques allow 'mingling', others don't...For the same reason Orthodox Jews don't allow women in specific parts of the synagogue {and the Western Wall}.
Personally, I will choose a segregated congregation.
The purpose of the segregation, again...Modesty , for Both..
Not simply because they're Misogynistic Patriarchal piggies....
In fact, if a gentleman accidentally wanders into the womens area {or a teenage boy is dared}, if the ladies are high strung about modesty {and they usually are}, it'll resemble a chicken coop with a Fox inside...
Best comparison I can come up with.

I do approve the construction of the Mosque near Ground Zero {I know, different thread}, it's a slap in the face to all Extremist/Fanatic/Delusional who want to preach Intolerance, Hatred towards the "Devil Amrikans" and claim the U.S. is anti-Islam...
I was actually stunned when I visited Memphis, Tenn. that there was a Madrassah {Islamic School}...

The Prophet Mohammed{p.b.u.h}, is Universally considered {within Islam anyways} as The Seal of the Prophets..
Many muslims will point out, Muslims do not worship the Prophet, but rather accord him with all the Due respect of a Prophet of G-d.
Muslims also believe that Islam is Not new not by a long shot, it was merely...rekindled.
The Bible, Torah/Talmud are also to be respected..
After all, same G-d, same Message {mostly}, different Language...

G-d Almighty = English, Hashem =Judaic, Allah = arabic
Some might dispute this, but if you find an unbiased Arabic Studies/Religious Studies Professor, unless they're atheist and have a chip on their shoulder, oftentimes they'll say the same.

What Laerkin said is true...
Whether you believe it or not, Feminism took place within Islam well before the suffragist movement, that a woman is Niqabi, because of supposed family pressures?
In some case, yes..Particularly in Countries where they were forced into it {Afghanistan}..
Elsewhere, quite a few actually Choose to wear Veils, I've witnessed fights because the parents were Hanafi, and the daughters ascribed to Hanbali..
Honestly, if a Nun/Monk can wear veils, and at some Convents live Cloistered, why not a Muslim?...
The Prophet eliminated infanticide of girls..
Hygienic speaking, yeah Muslims had the upper hand based on wash ritual...
Before every prayer, especially the primary 5 {yes there's more}, hands, face, mouth & feet must be washed..
After sex, birth and Menses, a shower is mandatory {preferably Alone, or it defeats the purpose} Like a Mikvah..
you don't step into a mosque if u haven't {Muslims anyways}.
A proper sign of respect to the Mosque visited, women wear a loose veil {if you're non muslim}, gentleman respect the womens area and stay out, please take off shoes.Trust me, the carpets are Cleam {unless u are visiting a Poor towns Mosque, and even then, they'll take care of the mosque before anything else.

Another "popular" issue would be Polygamy...
Yes, it's permitted, but with such astonishingly tight guidelines, nowadays, it's not worth the headache, unless you're flithy rich and can provide EQUALLY in Every way to all your wives..
If you can't, u better stay with 1, work from there.

As much as I might piss off a few Jewish friends {I don't mean to}
As a kid, I used to marvel at so many similarities orthodox Islam + orthodox Judaism have...
When I was told of the conflict between Ibrahim's wife and servant, I was mesmerized and pointed out
"So, they're technically brothers?....
Youth -shrug-

That was an excellent post, Rook. Thank you. I am Jewish, but have worked and visited extensively in the middle east, particularly Palestine, Egypt and Jordan.
Agree that the differences between orthodox Judaism and Islam are slight. Jews do not accept Jesus as a prophet and messiah, as Muslims do and tend to disregard the Prophet Muhammed entirely. What a shame. Actually, Muhammed historically had as much or more to to with the course of history than did Jesus. A fascinating personality to study and certainly a most misunderstood man today.
You're correct that your wudu is our mikvah. Today our dovening is very likely a remnant of the original common prayer and certainly we hold to the same inherent laws of G/d.
You've shared correct information and I'm sure that others appreciate your willingness to talk about faith at a time when Islamophobia is rampant. I can remember when it was difficult to be Jewish in our culture and have no tolerance whatsoever for any form of racism -- matters not who is the object of blatant hatred.
Perhaps it is imperative that gay people and their allies keep in mind that when one innocent group is being persecuted, we are sure to be next in line.
I, personally, find Sufism utterly fascinating as a meditation practice and hold it in the highest regard, along with buddhism and the mystical arms of other conventional faiths.
Thanks again for your post, Rook and Ramadan Mubarak
Assalamu alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

[betenoire]

I didn't know where else to post this, so I'm gonna go ahead and put it here.

1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World

[Glenn]

With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.[/QUOTE]

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

[Jude]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.[/QUOTE]

Isn't it sufficient to say that there is no faith in the history of mankind of this planet as replete with atrocity and horror as what has been perpetrated in the name of Jesus Christ? Nothing even comes in as a close second.

Here is a tidbit unknown to most people. Islam was known to the indigenous Americans long before Columbus and his crew even considered setting sail. Native lore is replete with names such as Mahmood, Ahmed and even Muhammed. Names such as Tallahassee (FL) are straight out of the Arabic. The first European ships sailing into the West Indies glided past mosques.

I don't like to offer links, but suggest anyone who wishes to do so try a Google search simply using the words: Native American and Islam or Muslim.

Looking at native religion as it evolved, glimpses of Islam are very apparent. Particularly clear is the Native American's great respect for life and the land. Hope this is on interest to somebody.

Well, we got the First Americans when we arrived and murdered most of them. Guess we're going to get them again on a second round.

[Jude]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

With all of the negative kinds of actions and feelings in the US about Islamic ideology and Muslims, I believe too much myth is out there. So, anyone that can speak to this, please do! There are a lot of members here that have a wealth of information about so many things.

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Isadora

My father-in-law was of the Bahá'í Faith, also a form of Islam. "Bahá'u'lláh taught that there is one God whose successive revelations of His will to humanity have been the chief civilizing force in history. The agents of this process have been the Divine Messengers whom people have seen chiefly as the founders of separate religious systems but whose common purpose has been to bring the human race to spiritual and moral maturity.

Humanity is now coming of age. It is this that makes possible the unification of the human family and the building of a peaceful, global society. Among the principles which the Bahá'í Faith promotes as vital to the achievement of this goal are

* the abandonment of all forms of prejudice
* assurance to women of full equality of opportunity with men
* recognition of the unity and relativity of religious truth
* the elimination of extremes of poverty and wealth
* the realization of universal education
* the responsibility of each person to independently search for truth
* the establishment of a global commonwealth of nations
* recognition that true religion is in harmony with reason and the pursuit of scientific knowledge"*

I used to love going to the Temple in Wilmette, Illinois to meditate. Everyone was welcomed.


*http://info.bahai.org/bahaullah-basic-teachings.html

Agree, Isadora, the Bahia faith is a lovely one. Do you know what their stance is on homosexuals? Just curious.

[Jude]

Sorry, I have to withdraw my positive comment on the Bahai faith unless someone can correct. I can't speak for the authenticity of the site from which this is quoted below:

"Homosexuality according to the writings of Baha'u'llah is spiritually condemned," Shoghi Effendi, the second and final interpreter of Baha'i teaching.

"...the Faith does not recognize homosexuality as a 'natural' or permanent phenomenon. Rather. it sees this as an aberration subject to treatment," Universal House of Justice, 1987-MAR-22.

"LGBTI Let us live in Peace." Text of a mask worn during a protest in Kampala, Uganda, seeking and end to persecution of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transexuals, transgendered and intersex persons. Local Baha'i, Christian and Muslim leaders urged the government to arrest the protestors.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I didn't know where else to post this, so I'm gonna go ahead and put it here.

1001 Inventions - Discover The Muslim Heritage In Our World

Thanks for this link!

[AtLast]

Thinking about how it is for someone in a Muslim country that is Christian. I have a neighbor/friend thsat is saudi and his family has always been Catholic. his children were not allowed to attend university (or receive free higher education) as Muslim children are. They were educated mostly in Egypt and the US.

Now, the entire family is here (took many years for him to be re-united with his wife and children- very long complex story) and of course, people in general in the US see assume this family is Muslim. He mamages a small store near me and has had quite a few threats. So have his kids (younger ones attending HS here).

What I feel is just plain anger at times about the kinds of nonsense ignorant people engage in. He and his family are saudi- THEY MUST BE MUSLIM! His family has been Christian (as I said) for generations.

[Jude]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Thinking about how it is for someone in a Muslim country that is Christian. I have a neighbor/friend thsat is saudi and his family has always been Catholic. his children were not allowed to attend university (or receive free higher education) as Muslim children are. They were educated mostly in Egypt and the US.

Now, the entire family is here (took many years for him to be re-united with his wife and children- very long complex story) and of course, people in general in the US see assume this family is Muslim. He mamages a small store near me and has had quite a few threats. So have his kids (younger ones attending HS here).

What I feel is just plain anger at times about the kinds of nonsense ignorant people engage in. He and his family are saudi- THEY MUST BE MUSLIM! His family has been Christian (as I said) for generations.

_____________________
From Wikipedia: Accurate religious demographics are difficult to obtain in Saudi Arabia[1] but 85 to 90% of citizens of Saudi Arabia are Sunni Muslims, who predominantly subscribe to the Government-sanctioned interpretation of Islam, while 15 to 10% of citizens are Shi'a Muslims[1].

AtLastHome, I'm just playing devil's advocate, but..... Saudi is a theocracy. Islam is the official and only religion. That you came up with one actual Saudi Christian is astonishing. That this single Christian family remained in Saudi at all is even more phenomenal. There are lots of foreign workers in Saudi who are Christians and they aren't allowed to bring in bibles or conduct public church services. There is not one single church in the entire country. That's what ya get when there's an official state religion. I'm sure your Christian friend also had to pay a special gyzia tax and may not have been considered a citizen of saudi, but a "guest". I'd be curious to know.

Saudi is unique in this manner. Even Iran has enclaves of Christians and Jews who are treated well, although they are a small minority. I was surprised to learn that a sizable number of Israeli Jews from Iran have made "reverse" aliyah and gone back to Iran -- so it can't be all that bad for them.

We don't have to agree, but it's their country. As long as no non-Muslim is forced to remain in Saudi against their will, it's their business. No non Muslim is allowed to enter Mecca at all.

Not a lot different than the Vatican in some ways. How many Jews and Muslims live in Vatican City? Israel, of course, also comes to mind. A percentage of ethnic Christians are tolerated, but as second class citizens at best. Each to their own.

[Jude]

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Jude

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I sure didn't know this! WOW! And this is bringing a lot of linkages to mind to consider! Thanks.

[Nat]

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Jude

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Mongols. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I would love to see some references concerning Native Americans (NA) originating/descending from the people of eastern Mongolia and Manchuria. If memory serves this used to be taught, but now with mitochondrial DNA it's not true.

Of course Islam was known by the indigenous peoples of the Americas. Those 'heathen barbarian savages' from around the world knew how to sail and navigate the oceans.

Muhammad heard from Allah around 610CE and then started spreading the word. It's not surprising that NA knew of Islam before Columbus invaded the Americas

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Jude

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I'm not so sure about that. It's been a while but the last I read (2008 or so) was that the population that became the natives of both North and South America arrived here ~12,000 BCE quite a bit before Islam. I have even read estimates going back as far as 40 - 50,000 BCE although there does not appear to be a great deal of evidence in support of it.

ALL indigenous Western Hemisphere populations are more closely related to one another than ANY of those populations are related to Siberian or East Asian populations. This strongly suggests a rather distant genetic split.



Cheers
Aj

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Jude

Did you know that the Monguls conquered the Muslims (those piles of skulls tend to be Islamic ones).............. then they turned around and embraced Islam. It is believed that the early descendants of the Native Americans were Monguls. That may answer, in part, why Islam was known in the americans long before the arrival of Columbus.

I find that highly improbable given that North American aboriginals crossed into modern day North America long before the creation of Judeo-Christian Islamic religions and long before the existence of Mongolia and the Mongolian invasions into eastern and central Europe, the Middle East and other Asiatic regions.

That said, yes they're related to other Eurasian/Asiatic groups populating northern Europe and northern and central Asia genetically, but that doesn't mean they have anything to do with the Mongols or had any contact with the Eurasian/Asiatic regions past the initial migration period.

And even if they had had contact with the Mongols of the European medieval period, that would have meant they would have been equally exposed to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and a number of other religions assimilated into the empire given that the Mongols (unlike other invaders) adopted some form of nearly every religion they came into contact with. That was one of the reasons the Mongols were so successful in their initial invasions, because instead of alienating or enslaving their conquered peoples, they would immediately assimilate them into their army and into their religious beliefs. This was arguably one of the causes of their demise as well.

So no, Aboriginal North/South Americans were not descended from the Mongols of the Mongolian Empire, nor did they have contact with Islam prior to colonisation as far as I've ever read.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Jude

A list of all the Christian countries conquered by Moslems:

A partial list of all the Moslem countries conquered by Christians: Morocco, Algeria, Tunnisia, Libya, Egypt, Dudan, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Iraq, Iran Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,Yemen, Oman, Abu Dhabi, Dubai...
This does not include minor Christian conquests such as North, South, and Central, America, India, China, Southeast Asia, and Africa.

Isn't it sufficient to say that there is no faith in the history of mankind of this planet as replete with atrocity and horror as what has been perpetrated in the name of Jesus Christ? Nothing even comes in as a close second.

Here is a tidbit unknown to most people. Islam was known to the indigenous Americans long before Columbus and his crew even considered setting sail. Native lore is replete with names such as Mahmood, Ahmed and even Muhammed. Names such as Tallahassee (FL) are straight out of the Arabic. The first European ships sailing into the West Indies glided past mosques.

I don't like to offer links, but suggest anyone who wishes to do so try a Google search simply using the words: Native American and Islam or Muslim.

Looking at native religion as it evolved, glimpses of Islam are very apparent. Particularly clear is the Native American's great respect for life and the land. Hope this is on interest to somebody.

Well, we got the First Americans when we arrived and murdered most of them. Guess we're going to get them again on a second round.

Kept reading through the thread and I really don't understand where you're getting this information. You've not given any sources for your information, and I've never read any of the sort. It all seems very outlandish.

I took the liberty of looking up the etymology of Tallahassee and discovered that it means "tribal town" or "old town" in the Creek language, which has no relation to any Arab languages.

I don't pretend to be any kind of expert on North or South American Aboriginal spirituality, but I have done a decent amount of reading on Aboriginal shamanism and spirituality globally. I can't say I've ever read of anything suggesting that "Native lore is replete with names such as Mahmood, Ahmed and even Muhammed." That the first European ships glided past mosques in the West Indies is just beyond science fiction. Please provide a link to your info because I'm not sure I can suspend belief that far.

As for your info on Christian invasions of "Muslim lands" vs. Muslim invasions of "Christian lands"...again, seems to be the product of misinformation.

Some examples:

One of the first Christian vs. Muslim conflicts was the conquest of the Christian Iberian Peninsula (modern day Spain and Portugal) by the North African Umayyad dynasty; a Muslim dynasty. Muslims ruled over the Iberian Peninsula for the next 6-7 centuries until the "reconquista" that placed Christians back into power.

During that time Muslim forces repeatedly attempted to invade and conquer southern France, but were repeatedly pushed back by Christian Frankish forces and completely pulled out by the 10th century.

Greece: The Christian Byzantine (Greek) Empire stretched into Asia Minor/Anatolia until the recently Muslim Seljuk Turks began their invasions against the Byzantine Greeks. The Byzantine Emperor eventually appealed for help against Muslim Turkish invasions from western Christendom; the appeal that began the First Crusade. As I'm sure you know, what was once Christian Greek land is now modern day Turkey and probably the only remaining "Christian" lands still in "Muslim hands." The reason for this is likely due to Europe's history, which has resulted in a western world that tends to be more advanced in its military tactics and use of weaponry. Which does in no way detract any credit from the military tactics of other nations. The Mongolians and Seljuk Turks had absolutely amazing swarming cavalry tactics that I'm, personally, a huge fan of ...but at the end of the day (probably due to social circumstances rather than anything military) they did not manage to retain most of their conquered lands.

The truth is, Christian/Muslim hostility has had a long and complex history with precedence in a European/Middle Eastern conflict outdating Christianity in Europe and Islam in the Middle East.

I get the feeling that, with current global relations being what they are, many who oppose Arab oppression in western nations (and rightfully so, since I don't believe oppression should go unchecked) attempt to make it into a good vs. bad sort of deal. As though Muslims had no role in the initiation of the Crusades (which, in fact, their invasions into south-eastern Europe initiated) or any of the more recent conflicts. It turns into a Muslims/Arabs = Good, Christians/Westerners = Bad kind of equation that seems to sometimes lead to a weird kind of historical revisionism. The truth ain't so black and white and each side had a role to play in today's conflicts as well as those of the past.

[AtLast]

So, does anyone else think that the Muslim investigative panels going on in the US Congress are "witch-hunt" material?