Lesbian Cougar Video--funny or not?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I guess I am to sensitive about it to find it funny.

No sense in beating a dead horse everyone has their opinion

Thanks for the dialogues!

naw, I don't think you are too sensative at all. I think it's one of those cubes that you can look at both ways.

I do honestly understand people's points. And I can see why - if you perceive satire that way, it's very fuckin unfunny. But it's my understanding that the joke is laughing at the uncomfortable bigotry/moronic behaviour of those being satirised. Sort of like laughing at someone saying something utterly unacceptable.

If you don't ever do that, it's hard to find some kinds of layerd satire funny. especially crappy satire that tries to be more than it's able. I really don't think the absurdity was written into it well enough for people to pick up on. like I said, really badly written. It fell totally flat.

oh well.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by June

I do too, Jules, and I've got a few years on you, even. But I also don't think we should disregard the opinions of others based on age even if we don't agree with them.

I learn things from younger folks all the time, and I hope that I sometimes return the favor.

I'm a little sensitive on age/viability stuff right now, pardon the de-rail.

--June (Still NOT Moderating!)

It wasn't a sweeping indictment on all younger people. Just this particular situation. I learn a lot from younger people too.

Edit: Yes June I do understand you are not moderating. We are only in semi disagreement on one small point. I have appreciated your posts here.

[Softhearted]

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Softhearted

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

I think it would have appeared far more american style college humour and it would have been fairly obvious. It was definitely satire.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Softhearted

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

Then someone's ass is gonna get whipped.

[SuperFemme]

second city is all about satire. no question there.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Ender it doesn't matter whether the video makers intended to portray women in a negative light or not. Their intent very well may have been satire and they missed the mark.

However, it's the end product that matters- not their intent. They don't appear to know enough about lesbians or sexism or misogyny to effectively pull it off, and the end product is just degrading and insulting.

College frat boys are the ones that mostly rape college girls at parties where there has been lots of alcohol. Inserting an older lesbian for a frat boy doesn't make any sense and I fail to see how this is satire.

I have a question: how can you ascertain whether or not they have enough information about lesbians, sexism or misogyny if the point of the satire was to appear ignorant of all of the above? When feigned ignorance is what makes it satirical?

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.

Anyways, I can see we are going in circles, so I won't continue to the press the point.

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

I agree. Everyone comes from a different walk in life that brings all kinds of knowledge to the table.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Softhearted

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

Same group that put this piece of crap out a few weeks ago:

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I have a question: how can you ascertain whether or not they have enough information about lesbians, sexism or misogyny if the point of the satire was to appear ignorant of all of the above? When feigned ignorance is what makes it satirical?

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.

Anyways, I can see we are going in circles, so I won't continue to the press the point.

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

I don't understand why you are defending a lame piece of satire and ignoring the messages it is sending about women. Go read the comments on YouTube- that's where they distribute their videos. See if their "satiric" message is getting through or whether you see a bunch of misogynist, homophobic comments.

Satire- know your audience, know your subject material. Otherwise you are going to cause way more harm than good so don't even fucking bother, especially if it's going to reinforce violence against women and horrible stereotypes.

How do I know they don't know enough- I am a lesbian. It's obvious. I wouldn't be telling a transman, hey you are not getting the point of this hilarious piece of satire made by non-trans people. They are mocking the transphobes not trans people, really honest.

As to your age, you don't seem to taken into account the lived experiences those of us have had. And yes I find it irritating when someone much younger than me thinks I am not getting their point. I know what satire is, and I know how to read your posts. You think I am not getting your point. I want to know why you don't seem to be putting any effort in trying to understand why people are upset and take into account what they have to say about how women are portrayed and the rape and other experiences they endure rather than trying to point out how we are not getting your point. We know it's supposed to be satire. We don't need your help on that point.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ender not trying to be mean, just being honest but this feels like you comin in here as a dude and telling the women to shut the fuck and just laugh at the funny.

It's kind of gross feeling.

Just being honest

[Corkey]

Satire, when done well, is funny as hell. Think Monty Python. This piece of garbage is sexist, homophobic, misogynistic and down right fucked up. It is sophomoric at best and it is just plane gross.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

If this is a satire, and I have good reason to believe it is, it is not attempting to strip women of their dignity (therefore, it is not about me making light of women or men's dignities). In fact, it is attempting to do the exact contrary by highlighting the existence of this tendency (of stripping women of their dignity) in society....

the stereotypes surrounding them that are commonly used in popular culture. It "makes light of" in order to make people aware of what they themselves may very well be perpetuating.

Ender - my question is -- does it work? I don't think it does. Because of the point I made earlier: You cannot successfully satirize something if you are basically ignorant about it on a social, cultural, and political level. That's what satire is after all - knowledgeable ironic commentary. This clip does not achieve satire - and if satire misses -- it easily becomes offensive. That's the risk of satire.

Actually the offensive part to me is the ignorant attempt at satire -- the making of satire without the requisite cultural analysis - the kind of analysis that makes The Simpsons work so well -- even when they skewer lesbians.

One last point: I am not at all convinced this was intended to be the kind of sophisticated satire you are arguing on behalf of.

Heart

[weatherboi]

hi everybody!!!

as a guy from this community that has loved femmes/lesbians it offends me to see the style of woman i love portrayed this way!!! in fact it just fuckin pisses me off!!!

as a guy from this community that loves women and has my own herstory i am offended by the disgusting way that this particular piece of "comedy" sets a tone for it to be ok to take advantage of women and have done enough work to understand how media like this goes against the fighting violence against women!!!

as a guy from this community i think it is important to say to others like me that have/will be gaining priviledge from transitioning that if this video did not offend you then you may need to revisit the mental work that comes with transitioning!!!

*notunderstandinghowyoucan'tseeitdancinglamb*

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ender not trying to be mean, just being honest but this feels like you comin in here as a dude and telling the women to shut the fuck and just laugh at the funny.

It's kind of gross feeling.

Just being honest

Just want to clarify (and I've stated it a few times now) that I don't actually see the video as funny. I think I wrote that even in the first post I made. I think whoever created it probably shouldn't quit their day job. I'm also not telling women, or anyone for that matter, to shut the fuck up and laugh (actually, kind of the opposite). If I wanted people to shut up, I wouldn't continue talking to them. If I didn't want the discussion to happen, I wouldn't start typing to begin with. What I'm trying to say is that if people are angry, fine, go ahead and be angry. But what I'm also trying to say is that it doesn't help anyone's cause to sit there and point fingers all day.

People keep bringing up how I identify, and I get that people think that because someone doesn't identify in a certain way that they don't understand what other people of that identification feel about a subject that directly concerns them. But honestly, where would we get if we started limiting people on what they have to say based on their gender identification? Am I supposed to agree just because I don't identify a certain way and couldn't "possibly understand"? What if I identified as female and a lesbian? Would people be more willing to listen, then? People also seem to think I don't care or want to care about how lesbians/female identified folks feel...that's not the case at all. I am understanding, truly I am, but understanding does not necessarily mean that I'm going to agree that this is the most productive way to go about addressing these issues, and the fact that I don't agree shouldn't mean that I don't respect those feelings. I just think that reacting on pure emotion can be counterproductive to raising awareness.

Not trying to be mean either, and also just being honest. If this is your polite way of saying "Ender, fuck off" then please tell me "Ender, fuck off." I promise not to take it personally. Until someone tells me to blatantly get lost, all I get is that you guys disagree with me, but still don't mind me continuing to discuss. But I'm slowly getting the impression that it's a polite/indirect "please, shut up now." Please tell me if it is.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's not an Ender shut up or fuck off, I was merely voicing what it felt like to me.

Thanks for listening

[imperfect_cupcake]

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.

by being misunderstood, I don't think it's being insinuated anyone is "dim" by the way. I think it's just the being able to see a picture one way and another, shifting the cube back and forth.

There's certain kinds of layerd irony in the way some of my friends take the piss that I have trouble understanding and I sometimes get upset and distressed. Mainly because of my cultural background and upbringing. Sometimes they have to re-assure me, it not meant that way.


I'm including a link to Nighty Night if some of you enjoy dark humour and satire.
I think you'll agree the absurdity shows more here and there's absolutely no suggestion they represent all women, nor are they encouraging people to treat pregnant people in this manner by abusing a pregnant woman.



this is much better written. and yes, I agree, bulldog and heart, know your audience or it doesn't work! but I still don't think that video was supporting rape, no more than this video is supporting the abuse of pregnant women.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians.

See, I don't think so. I don't think there is a cultural impression of older lesbians as sex-craved cougars. That's a tried-and-true older straight woman stereotype. (Mrs. Robinson anyone?)

Older lesbians are stereotyped as sexless, humorless, birkenstock-wearing, man-hating, granola-eating separatists. Rarely have I seen older lesbians portrayed as sexual in any manner.

Seriously, this clip just makes no sense to me (older lesbian that I am). To do satire, you gotta know your tropes. And in not hitting its satirical mark, this clip ends up being pretty damn offensive.

Heart

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Heart

Ender - my question is -- does it work? I don't think it does. Because of the point I made earlier: You cannot successfully satirize something if you are basically ignorant about it on a social, cultural, and political level. That's what satire is after all - knowledgeable ironic commentary. This clip does not achieve satire - and if satire misses -- it easily becomes offensive. That's the risk of satire.

Hi Heart and thanks for your post,

To your first question I would response: No it doesn't work. Like I said, this guy shouldn't quit his day job any time soon. However, I don't feel that the reason this attempt at satire failed was because the author of it was ignorant lesbians, issues women face etc. I think the reason it failed was that he just didn't make it blatant enough that he was attempting to satirise this common misperception in every day society. As you said yourself, that is always the risk of satire (and arguably it happens, to some degree, with any satirical piece).

One last point: I am not at all convinced this was intended to be the kind of sophisticated satire you are arguing on behalf of.

Heart

Neither am I. But, actually, my point was not that it was akin to the genius of Candide or Les femmes savantes, but that to call the author out on misoginy himself is incorrect. Yes, he wasn't all that successful in his attempt, but let's at least recognise it for what it is. Also, there are cases where failed satires can be salvaged for a better purpose. That is part of what I am arguing as well. Do you not think that it may be more productive to approach the issue with a cool head, than with anger or throwing insults? And if it were an attempt to degrade women, would such an approach not have a better chance of gaining sympathy than mud-slinging?

[SuperFemme]

why is not agreeing with the video or disliking it = emotional reactions, anger and the lack of a cool head?

curious.