Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[BullDog]

I have never been sexually or physically assaulted. I have been threatened with physical violence. I've had dyke yelled at me many times. I have had males on more than one occasion get up close into my personal space to try to intimidate me. I had a guy once sit next to me on the bus and make fun of my small amount of peach fuzz over my upper lip (don't think it's enough to qualify for mustache, lol). I had two guys come and sit right next to me at a restaurant and start talking homophobic crap (I got up and moved). I have been out with a femme and had men ask why they would be with an ugly woman like me. I once was visiting a femme and her mailbox was vandalized. I have been denied service at barbershops. I've been told I don't belong in the men's department and had store clerks talking to each other wondering why they are always stuck helping the freaks. I've had lots of weird stares and dirty looks and people sometimes seem to avoid sitting next to me.

I feel very fortunate that I have not experienced sexual or physical assault like so many other butches have.

[Hack]

I've never been physically assaulted. I've been verbally assaulted a few times. My favorite being when I was called "he/she/it -- whatever you are" by an irate customer at a video store I used to manage. Once while in Nashville, my girlfriend and I were followed down the street by some drunken men who were saying rather rude things. I turned around once and said something back, which threw them off, I think, because they stopped following us.

When I am in places I am not familiar with, I feel myself being more aware of my surroundings. But I don't live in a paranoid state. I tend to approach people without apology, meaning I don't act timid or apologetic because I am queer. My attitude is pretty much -- this is me, deal with it.

[Rockinonahigh]

I had to look twice at the title of this subject,Merlin tks for starting it.Over the years I have had some things happen that were either stuff I could just blow off to haveing to out right hot quit a job for my own safty,yes I did all I could do to go threw the chain of comamd to see if this could be stoped but it did little good.It was sexual harrasment to the tenth degree,it got to where this bio male person was parking his car next to mine in the employees parking lot and as we got off work at 2:am in the morning I was walking into a near dark area,no security guard,no security cams... nada,needless it had already become a very dangerous situation for me.This happened at a local casino,finaly it all ended up in the HR department but as I had felt I had to walk out of the job for my own safty..I was at fault for quiting..Yes they did a minor investagation into it but I was told no one would back my story even tho it was something every one on my shift and department knew what was going on..better theire jobs be safe that anything pertaining to me.I talked to an attlrney he said I had to have whittnesses that were willing to tell the truth in a court of law.The lawyer in fact told me to suck it up cause I would play hell in proveing it.I wished I had had a way to persue this but its been a long time as this happened on 2005.The rest of the crap ive delt with has been stuff about the bathroom or comments about the butchie boi thinks hes a man thing or just plain beng ask to leave a resturant once cause the group I was with made the customers incomfortable..ect,ect.
One thing that has been on my mind is me flying to little rock for the reunion,will I have any probs to deal with at the airport or the public,beleave me its not stoping me from going.I have a ride if I can swing the time to leave off on hys scedual.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Heart

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.

I disagree. There are butches out there who have been assaulted not for being a non-conforming woman, but for being a non-conforming or "unidentifiable" person. In that way, many who are identified as "queer" "not straight" or "non-cis" in some way are not necessarily being seen by their assaulter as a woman or even as a man. They are "freaks" which is another aspect of the dehumanization that occurs in violent and sexual assaults against non-conforming people.

Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women. But plastering that one experience on every butch is an incorrect generalization...and vice versa of course.

The second issue is that if one does not experience themselves as a woman, if one does not identify as a woman, then I believe it's wrong to generalize and say that they experienced the assault as a woman. Thinking back to the assault of Branden Tina as an example, after his death so many tried to write him off as a "lesbian" and even the movie they made about him tries to portray him as a woman following the sexual assault he experienced. I think that it is really important in these conversations to recognise that differences in experience, as far as saying whether someone experiences something as a "man" or as a "woman." I would never say that a transwoman who has been raped experienced her rape as a "man," for example. Saying that butches who don't id as women or female experience assault as a woman also feels like the aggressor who is trying to "correct their orientation/gender" through rape has achieved their goal both in their own eyes and in the eyes of outsiders looking in on the situation...that male id'd butches or trans id'd butches are "guys until they get raped." In such traumatic cases I think we should be more understanding of how each victim perceives their own assault.

Instead of bringing instances of XY men being raped, or non-butch women being raped into this thread, why not just stick to how butches feel about the issue no matter if they id as a woman or not.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by citybutch

Yes, was punched in the face while I was standing outside a bar in Boston in the mid eighties (Somewhere Else, anyone else remember it?). I was having a smoke waiting for a girl to come out. The bar was on a back side street downtown... and I was leaning against a pole. Some guy walked up and said "Hey butch, gotta light?" As I was pulling out my lighter he punched in the face and he and his friend ran off...

I had a nasty bloody nose... but it got a cute girl to take me home...

Boston is where I got called the F word. lol

[BullDog]

Ender, Heart said many butches, not all.

[AtLast]

My personal experience with rape, harrassment, and physical assualt has been keely tied to homophobia and sexism as a female/woman as a butch individual.

I sure see how these can be experienced differently depending on gender identifications because it is variable and complex.

Most of the verbal assaults I have experienced have been very homophobic in nature- dyke, queer, bull-dagger, etc. being used in a derogatory and taunting manner. Things like "you want to suck my dick" or "cock" being slung my way. When I was younger, there were more than a few times the old "all you really need is a good fuck" (by a man of course) was hurled my way.

I can't count the times I have been accused of really wanting to be a man due to my butch presentation. Butches are not viewed as legitimate women or men. Which, actually has been something that has given me a better understanding of all forms of violence related to gender across the board. I am woman not recognized as such by heteronormative society and the traditional binary.

[kaka]

I am butch and have been ridiculed alot when i was a teen, I know what its like to be gay and have to hide especially if you live in a red neck state and city. And all this was in the late 70's.

[Merlin]

I get the stares,the name calls - have had freak loads ..
Lemon,dyke,un - natural .. Etc etc.
Never been roughed up ..

Try to have a thick skin but names can hurt more than a smack.

[Quintease]

My boyfriend was knocked out cold in a homophobic attack once, when he still appeared female. He says it still makes him nervous in certain situations even now.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Heart

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker.

First, I am a femme so my comments may not be suited for this thread and if you feel that way, then please allow me to apologize.

BUT, I can relate to the first line of this quote. I have had TWO offenses and (at least) THREE near misses and ALL were directed at me by men.

I dated a genderqueer woman in my past and she used to stress to me "people will cause problems for us if we are out, if it becomes physical, you run and get help, I am used to it." It literally broke my heart that someone gets used to being attacked for being who they are. I could not ever decide-do I listen to her-run for help or stay? How on Earth could I leave, knowing she was about to be hurt? How could I stay and not at least try to get help (I am not physically strong enough to fight off more than one person)? And, why were there people in the world, willing to hurt others, simply for who they loved?

[asphaltcowboi]

hmm i have been both verbaly and phisicaly attacked not once not twice but a few times.. ha! an i spent most my life in the bay area calif! never been sexually asulted (unless you count that one femme i knew and i liked it). ok so the most phisical attack was coming out of a gay bar, i was jumped an knifed cut in the lower private areas still have scares. just for walking out of the bar i guess.i dont think it would have mattered if i was butch or gay or any of the ID's i believe it was just haters...another time i went to visit my g/f at work she was a bartenter in a sports bar and ended up being beat by a pool stick and that was because i was butch and dated a beautiful woman.. the guy even said "so you think your good enough to be a man?" wtf he meant by that i douno and im not going back to ask. it wasnt like i was putting my realtionship out for the whole straight crew to dwell on. another time i was ruffed up pretty good by some cops that were just doing there job, i did do wrong but soon as they realized i was female the treatment got alot rougher. there has been several more times but i think the most hurtfull one came from my or what i thought was my own comunity. a soft butch telling me that i was rediclouse looking and why didnt i soften up my looks then telling my g/f why didnt she just date a guy.. i dont know this seemed to hurt more than any phisical abuse i suffered.. im not sure if it was because i new alot would agree or the fact that it felt like it was coming from family.

[Soon]

A little over five years (pre-transitioned) ago my husband got kidney punched--hard--in Orlando at The House of Blues b/c these guys saw him with three attractive women and they HATED it. He could not see, obviously, who did it b/c it was from behind.

He reported it to security (off-duty police), but that off-duty guy didnt give jack shit and looked at Daniel with disgust.

(These words are largely Daniel's)

I do have to say, now that he is recognized as a man, he has no issues with harrassment and gets actual *nods* from men instead. That is deserving of another thread entirely--I have seen it.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women. But plastering that one experience on every butch is an incorrect generalization...and vice versa of course.

WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

[BullDog]

It doesn't matter whether you identify as a woman or not. If you are not read as male you are subject to rape as a non-conforming woman. I also agree with Heart that many (if not most) rapes perpetuated against men is a way to feminize them, as a form of humiliation. Rape is about power not sex. Military regimes also attempt to feminize men as a way to humiliate and torture. I seriously doubt Branden Tina's rapists thought they were raping a man. I don't believe too many people are raped as "its." They know what parts a person has when they are raping them and most people don't go much beyond the gender spectrum of man and woman. Remember how we are supposedly fighting the binary?

All the stories told by butches so far point to lots of homophobia. If the butches were being read as straight males that would not be occurring.

If you want to help fight homophobia and transphobia and sexism stand up with women. You are being treated the same or very similar when it comes to sexual assault. Homophobia and transphobia share the same root as misogyny- that is sexism. Within sexism male and man is valued over female and woman. Stand WITH women- you are being treated similar or the same because of how women are devalued and brutalized. Stop trying to lecture women and stand WITH us.

[Kätzchen]

BullDog, do you mind if I add to your thoughts on this?

I know first hand that rape is about power.

I identify as a Femme but not too long ago (less than three years to be exact), I most often was mis-read as being butch (especially by others claiming the identifier of Femme). Before that, it wasn't even about how I identified. It's think it's painfully apparent that I am female and that I am a woman and not so apparent that I'm a Femme.

So to me, it's not about butch or femme identity.

To me, the tool of rape is about power.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

They certainly do- take a look at court transcripts of homophobic hate crimes including sexual assault against butches. Public record- and there is research supporting this- lots of documentation. Which is great because this kind of docummented evidence is needed to demonstrate to get anti-hate crime legislation on the books- for all groups that are targeted for hate crimes.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

A little over five years (pre-transitioned) ago my husband got kidney punched--hard--in Orlando at The House of Blues b/c these guys saw him with three attractive women and they HATED it. He could not see, obviously, who did it b/c it was from behind.

He reported it to security (off-duty police), but that off-duty guy didnt give jack shit and looked at Daniel with disgust.

(These words are largely Daniel's)

I do have to say, now that he is recognized as a man, he has no issues with harrassment and gets actual *nods* from men instead. That is deserving of another thread entirely--I have seen it.

This brings back a couple of situations that happened to me with straight me that had a problem with my being with a woman (femme) that obviously they just could not fathom being a lesbian. In fact, this was the circunstance of my being jumped by 3 men as we left a club. They were waiting for us outside. It was very scary for both of us. I was hit over the head with a broken beer bottle. Mt gf at the time feared being raped by them- so did I. Lucky for us, a group of people (mixed straights, gays and lesbians) came out and intervened. One ran back inside and asked the bartender to call the police. LOL.. back in the day, before cell phones!

I actually had something like this happen recently- although I was not hit. But the husband of a woman I befriended at my local dog park got riled when she introduced me one day. Later, as I got to know her better, she told me she is bisexual and they have an open marriage. But he can't stand to see her with a woman that is or could be a lover. Yikes! I just enjoy walking and talking with her with our dogs. I'm fine with their marriage agrements and her bisexuality, but, have no interest in getting involved with her. Not in my comfort zone. But even now, if I am walking with her and he shows up at the park, his whole demeanor changes. I did talk to her about this and the fact that it makes me uncomfortable- she said she told him we are not lovers. I don't know about that. But she has not tried to pursue a sexual relationship with me after I made it clear that I wasn't interested. Who knows- I only run into her every month or so.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

she is bisexual and they have an open marriage. But he can't stand to see her with a woman that is or could be a lover. Yikes! I just enjoy walking and talking with her with our dogs. I'm fine with their marriage agrements and her bisexuality, but, have no interest in getting involved with her. Not in my comfort zone. But even now, if I am walking with her and he shows up at the park, his whole demeanor changes.

Doesn't sound very open to me.

[Merlin]

Can I also add that some butches may not identify as female butches, you wear the skin your given. I am biologically female though my entire being to the core including thoughts is male identified.

I believe I am gender dysphoric,not on the scale of transition as I am happy to live my day to day life as a male in appearance. I don't need T or an operation to pass,I live my life how I want.

I have no body clock ticking,no yearning to embrace my womanhood .. I get told I should be a feminist .. That I should embrace it .. That people died for women's vote etc etc ..

People have died all the way through history,over race,religion,orientation,disability and war !!

I am thankful for stonewall for what my gay ancestors went through in history ..

There is always going to be someone who wants you dead .. Or someone who hates you .. Or someone you will never see eye to eye with.

But ain't that life ?