Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[afixer]

it's happened enough to me at my current address that i'm considering moving.

[dykeumentary]

Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Heart

WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

Did you even look at the portion of your post that I bolded? I have no problem with anyone saying "many butches" experience blah blah blah, but when you follow that up with claiming that they experience it "as women" and then followed by a comment on how it doesn't matter that they don't identify as women, I have a problem with it. To couple that experience of rape or physical assault or any kind of assault with a claim that it is "as women" and that it is an experience "as women" despite that they don't identify as women, then yeah I'm gonna see that as erasing, and yeah I'm gonna call it out.

You also didn't address the second part of my post that went into explaining my stance even further. While Brandon Teena may not have been seen as a man while he was being raped, neither do I think he was seen as wholely female. I think the relationship between aggressors and transgender or even intersexed bodies and how they experience the assault is different. I think it's a simplification of the situation and how various gender identities experience assault. Brandon was not experiencing assault "as a woman" from the victim's perspective, he was experiencing it as a transguy with gender dysphoria. Identifying as trans or as a male identity in addition to being body dysphoric and what one experienced with those challenges during a sexual assault is a different experience than being an XX woman. It's not "worse," it's entirely equal in its atrocity, but it's different and that should be recognised. Just the way many physically disabled women who experience rape have different challenges and feelings regarding their experience than able-bodied women and so on.

That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful. Going back to Boys Don't Cry, again just look at the portrayal of Brandon added by the director. After he is raped he is then portrayed as a lesbian and his dysphoria seems to magically evaporate. Even Tisdel said that never happened, yet the director put that in there anyway as a reflection of her own perspective. It's not a totally uncommon view and I have a right to find it disturbing.

To clarify again since I may or may not have made it clear enough in my initial post: my objection is to the experience "as women" in conjunction with "even if they don't id that way." My objection is also partially that that phrase was used to address the derailment by talking about the rape of XY men. To me this should be a thread about butch experience, that is (as far as its language) not dismissive. To me the offense is not just that someone brought up the rape of XY men in a thread about "women's experiences with violence"...it's moreso that it's brought up in a thread about butches who were born XX whether they identify or are identified by others are women or not. The bottom line should be butch experience, past and present.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

To me the offense is not just that someone brought up the rape of XY men in a thread about "women's experiences with violence"...it's moreso that it's brought up in a thread about butches who were born XX whether they identify or are identified by others are women or not. The bottom line should be butch experience, past and present.

In retrospect I would like to amend the last part of my post so that it more accurately includes butches who were born XY but who identify as women as well as intersex butches who are also not born XX.

My apologies if I caused offense or discomfort with that final portion of my post.

[Heart]

Ender - you misread me and misread my use of the word experience. I am talking about the attacker's perspective and its relationship to rape as a tool of power and control. You either don't see that or you wish to continue engaging about something that I am not referencing. If you wish to discuss the victim's identity and the impact rape has on that, as well as critique "Boys Don't Cry," fine - go ahead. That's a worthy discussion. However, it is unrelated to what I was saying.

Further, your implication that I am somehow the aggressor when I discuss the rape of female bodies and the attempted obliteration by the rapist of whatever identity may be housed in that body, reads as shifting accountability away from the rapist to me. Fuck that.

This is the last I will engage with you on this topic.

I will also bow out of this thread so as to stop taking space from those butches and folks sharing their experiences of violation. Peace and safety for all is my fervent wish.

Heart

[Andrew, Jr.]

Yes, I have been physically & verbally assulted by not only the straight community but the glbt community as well. One day I will have peace. Some people think its funny or cute to gossip as well. They have no idea of how the words they speak hurt someone, and those around them.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=dykeumentary;348945]Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.[/QUOTE]

Shit!

Class seems to be forgotten often in our discussions, I think. Time we changed this.

[Merlin]

I liked my thread title better.

What does the triggering thing mean ?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Merlin

I liked my thread title better.

What does the triggering thing mean ?

There were one or two posts that had some fairly explicit stuff that could possibly be triggering for someone reading it. It just means that those coming into this thread know that there has been some stuff that may or may not bring up some painful memories for them.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by Merlin

I liked my thread title better.

What does the triggering thing mean ?

Triggering means it might cause emotional harm to some readers by it's contents.

When you start a thread you should think about the impact it might have or what results you wish to achieve. It shouldn't just be for "shock" value. I'm curious--did you just want everyone to share their experiences or are you looking for something else?

[Merlin]

I wanted to know what others had been through.

I didn't expect many to answer as it's personal.

I am shocked at the severity of violence and am wondering if it's worse over there than here.

I am thinking of those who have posted here . . Just wanted to say that.

[Merlin]

It wasn't for shock value.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Merlin

I wanted to know what others had been through.

I didn't expect many to answer as it's personal.

I am shocked at the severity of violence and am wondering if it's worse over there than here.

I am thinking of those who have posted here . . Just wanted to say that.

Thanks for starting the thread! Unfortunately, the US is way up on the list in terms of violence of all kinds as a country. Makes me sad to know this about my country.

A lot of work to done if we are ever going to change this.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I also think we need stronger laws for those who are violent, esp. when it comes to assult, battery, and rape.

[citybutch]

Way up on the list? Where is this documented? I believe that violence against those who transgress gender expectations is rather universal. In fact, those who transgress heterosexual expectations in some countries of this planet are threatened with government sanctioned death...

I don't think the US is on any different platform than most countries .. but if we are I would love to see that study.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Thanks for starting the thread! Unfortunately, the US is way up on the list in terms of violence of all kinds as a country. Makes me sad to know this about my country.

A lot of work to done if we are ever going to change this.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I disagree. There are butches out there who have been assaulted not for being a non-conforming woman, but for being a non-conforming or "unidentifiable" person (adding color to emphasize Ender's choice of terminology).


In that way, many who are identified as "queer" "not straight" or "non-cis" in some way are not necessarily being seen by their assaulter as a woman or even as a man. They are "freaks" which is another aspect of the dehumanization that occurs in violent and sexual assaults against non-conforming people (Fantastic observation, thank you for articulating this).


Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women (I have edited this portion of Ender's phrase of thought).


(I have edited Ender's preface to their second point, please see original post if necessary; I have narrowed this particular phrase for clarity of thought for my own purposes, so I am able to attend to Ender's focus, logic) . . . Saying that butches who don't id as women or female experience assault as a woman also feels like the aggressor who is trying to "correct their orientation/gender" through rape has achieved their goal both in their own eyes and in the eyes of outsiders looking in on the situation...that male id'd butches or trans id'd butches are "guys until they get raped." In such traumatic cases I think we should be more understanding of how each victim perceives their own assault.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

(Again, I have edited Ender's post for clarity so I can attend to the focus of logic presented - see Ender's original post if necessary)


Did you even look at the portion of your post that I bolded? I have no problem with anyone saying "many butches" experience blah blah blah, but when you follow that up with claiming that they experience it "as women" and then followed by a comment on how it doesn't matter that they don't identify as women, I have a problem with it. To couple that experience of rape or physical assault or any kind of assault with a claim that it is "as women" and that it is an experience "as women" despite that they don't identify as women, then yeah I'm gonna see that as erasing, and yeah I'm gonna call it out.



That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful.

To clarify again since I may or may not have made it clear enough in my initial post: my objection is to the experience "as women" in conjunction with "even if they don't id that way." My objection is also partially that that phrase was used to address the derailment by talking about the rape of XY men. To me this should be a thread about butch experience, that is (as far as its language) not dismissive. To me the offense is not just that someone brought up the rape of XY men in a thread about "women's experiences with violence"...it's moreso that it's brought up in a thread about butches who were born XX whether they identify or are identified by others are women or not. The bottom line should be butch experience, past and present.

When I was here last night, reading through this forum discussion, I posted a limited accounting of possessing first hand knowledge of how rape was experienced by me - a person who identifies as a Femme and as a person who has in the past been mistaken as a butch. I also submitted my perceptual view of rape as a tool of power. I want to add that although rape is used as a tool of power, what I failed to communicate is that, rape used as a tool of power is also an abuse of power.


I felt compelled to come back and enter the discussion again. So I copied and edited two of Ender's comments because Ender and I are friends. I highly respect Ender's acuity, Ender's formal education and Ender's cross-cultural life experience which richly shapes Ender's informed perspective. I value Ender as a member of this community. Ender, I hope you don't mind that I narrowed the focus of your logic in order to call attention to detail that may have been lost within the topic of discussion.


Ender, I like how you framed your persuasive argument in calling to task the very issue at stake: Rape - and how it is used as a tool of oppression; a tool of power to control or cause conformity among members of a population who do not adhere to dominant social standards in highly political ways.


I like how you refrained from using specified identifiers as an ally to those who do not identify within a binary sex and gender spectrum as a "person." When I hear Ender (or any person or member here) frame their persuasive argument with sensitivity to the human element of being a "person," then I know they care about how human beings are affected by coercive power and control of the abusive form of power exerted - specific to the context of this discussion is it framed and called - rape.


I like it that Ender added the specificity of the term "person" because I feel it spans perceptions and includes my experience with the abusive form of power and control - rape. I am a person. I am a human being. I am many things but what causes me to hear Ender's argument much clearer (especially because I can be slow to fathom all dimensions of detailed communication) was the use of the term "person."


I believe that Ender expressed this beautifully: "That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful."


If I understand what you have articulated Ender, what I hear you saying is this: That if we are to claim that women are viewed as subordinate to the ordinant, that women are accorded no value in socio-cultural dimensions of society (here or anywhere), then the counter-proposition of saying 'that even if they don't ID that way" cancels the power of the first claim. If I have rendered your statement with the intention you build into your statement, then it causes me to feel that you are indeed thinking past the binary limitations that governs the use of language used in the current discussion. For how are we (the general we) allies to those in our own community, the community here online, or the community abroad (for instance, the audience of this specific online membership, I imagine, is far-reaching to those who are reading from the sidelines wherever they reside) if we do not allow ourselves to include diverse perception not akin to our own?


Thank you for investing your time and energy Ender in articulating your perspective and acting as an ally to all, rather than just those who cling to a particular identity. I want to also add that I do not percieve you as lecturing, although my having been schooled formally has conditioned me to attend to lectures. What I want to say is this: I am encouraged by your participatory actions in a highly diverse base of communicators and as a communicator myself, I want to be attentively responsible as possible in various contexts of communication - especially when the subject of discussion is about coercive forms of power and how it affects each of us personally and communally as a whole.

[Converse]

Originally Posted by Merlin

We call it gay bashing here.

Have you ever been assaulted for the way you look/being gay ?

Touch wood no-one has ever laid a finger on me (one of the benefits of passing ) but I feel like I am living on borrowed time.

Yes of course, all of the verbal assaults, the majority of which have happened when I’ve been with a Femme- I have never fully understood why, perhaps others have thoughts on that.

And of course the bathroom sagas of boyfriends waiting for me to come out after their girlfriends have told them about the “freak” they saw inside. Then an incident that started with a comment about my tie, as I stopped at a gas station late one night, that led to a car chase and some dented panels, and twice a gun held to my head; one from the Femmes family member who would have been able to “deal with it” if I “at least looked like a female”, and the other from a stranger in a parking lot who didn’t like the look of me.

I’ve felt rage and fear and embarrassment because of attacks, the first I remember happened in high school when I was held down so I could be branded with my very first “label” courtesy of a lit cigarette – but I think of everything, two incidents stand out for me the most: the first came on a beautiful sunny afternoon when an older woman beat me with a bible as I tried to walk past; and the second were the words that came from a family member who while offering me ice for a blackened eye said “well what do you expect walking around looking like that”.

[asphaltcowboi]

yes it happens more often then most will know alot of us/me just dont like to admit alot of the verbal that bothers...( me/us).. and i know i dont want to talk about any kind of sexual violence.. i think alot goes un reported because of butch pride... i know thats the case for me. if im asked where this scar or this bruise or why my distant state of mind i will pass it off as something else. every once in awhile ill talk about some of it to a close friend or my sister. it often makes me wonder if i some how bring it on myself for being who i am, not meaning putting my beliefs/lifestyle in everyones face. but for the simple things i do like wearing my levis,boots,tats, hair cut,ect. things i am confertable wearing
in response to a rep.... yes it happens everywhere!!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes of course, all of the verbal assaults, the majority of which have happened when I’ve been with a Femme- I have never fully understood why, perhaps others have thoughts on that.

And of course the bathroom sagas of boyfriends waiting for me to come out after their girlfriends have told them about the “freak” they saw inside. Then an incident that started with a comment about my tie, as I stopped at a gas station late one night, that led to a car chase and some dented panels, and twice a gun held to my head; one from the Femmes family member who would have been able to “deal with it” if I “at least looked like a female”, and the other from a stranger in a parking lot who didn’t like the look of me.

I’ve felt rage and fear and embarrassment because of attacks, the first I remember happened in high school when I was held down so I could be branded with my very first “label” courtesy of a lit cigarette – but I think of everything, two incidents stand out for me the most: the first came on a beautiful sunny afternoon when an older woman beat me with a bible as I tried to walk past; and the second were the words that came from a family member who while offering me ice for a blackened eye said “well what do you expect walking around looking like that”.

Originally Posted by cody

yes it happens more often then most will know alot of us/me just dont like to admit alot of the verbal that bothers...( me/us).. and i know i dont want to talk about any kind of sexual violence.. i think alot goes un reported because of butch pride... i know thats the case for me. if im asked where this scar or this bruise or why my distant state of mind i will pass it off as something else. every once in awhile ill talk about some of it to a close friend or my sister. it often makes me wonder if i some how bring it on myself for being who i am, not meaning putting my beliefs/lifestyle in everyones face. but for the simple things i do like wearing my levis,boots,tats, hair cut,ect. things i am confertable wearing
in response to a rep.... yes it happens everywhere!!

Both of these posts make my heart ache. It aches for we butches, our transmembers and the experiences of femmes that happen. Some of us just have had some pretty violent attacks against us and I can so relate to often, just keeping it inside. One reason I was really glad to see this thread is because I do think we all can hold in this stuff. And it felt good to have a butch centered thread to talk about it all. Even though I hate hearing other's stories, it does feel like I am not alone. I'm sure this also goes for our many trans members and femmes. But I know it isn't easy to post about it- thanks.

To this day- and I am 60 years old, I have not told one family member about the violence/rape I have encountered as a lesbian and as a butch.

[Jett]

I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this, but it feels very linked in to this thread. I experienced sexual assault more than once before I began "appearing" butch in my late teens, after growing into that "butch look" more I'd experienced physical and a lot of verbal assault.

At this time I no longer outwardly appear even close to as butch as I once did, MUCH harder to peg and I have to say I am jaw dropping like staggered at how extremely consistently differently I am treated. Being outwardly butch for decades I was well aware of the stares and slurs and like I said getting in scraps... but I was never aware how many ppl were just remaining silent.

When I walk around now, ppl talk to me, "Hey hot enough for you?"... "Are you my new neighbor?" "Hey looks like that dog is walking you!" lots of joking all the people that smile at me... and just say hello... some ppl did this before, but the difference is like I said, absolutely freaking staggering. I had no idea, even being smack dab in the middle of it (I was "outwardly" butch for over twenty years). In my opinion butches experience a form of double jeopardy... being/females physically and or women and also gender variant and queer. Maybe like triple jeopardy I guess.

Now... today, walking down a lonely street I am more, feel more keenly aware of the risk to me of sexual assault (perhaps just my own perception or ghost of the past haunting me) but feel (hindsightedly) much more aware of the danger of being butch in this world. I can't even feel good about all the "kinder" attention now, I feel guilty when it happens... and I think about all my bro's and sisters out there.

Like I said... I don't know where I'm going with this... kind of rambling out things that have been on my mind, but I'll just say pls be AWARE and be SAFE...