Is Marriage for you?

[theoddz]

This from the script of one of my most favorite scenes in one of my most absolute favorite movies, "Out of Africa" (1985). I'm posting it because it deals with marriage and hits the nail on the head with how I feel about marriage.

Scene5

Karen: When you go away on safari, are you ever with someone else?

Denys: I'd be with you if I wanted to be with anyone.

Karen: Do you ever get lonely?

Denys: Sometimes.

Karen: Do you ever wonder if I am lonely?

Denys: No, I don't.

Karen: Do you think about me at all?

Denys: Often.

Karen: But not enough to come back.

Denys: I do come back all the time. What is it?

Karen: Nothing. Bror has asked me for a divorce. He found someone that he wants to marry. I just thought we might do that someday.

Denys: Divorce? How... How would a wedding change things?

Karen: I would have someone of my own.

Denys: You wouldn't.

Karen: What's wrong with marriage, anyway?

Denys: Have you ever seen one you admire?

Karen: Yes, I have. Many. Belfields, for one.

Denys: He sent her home for the rains in 1910. Didn't tell her they were over till 1913.

Karen: It's not a joke. People marry. It's not revolutionary. There are animals that mate for life.

Denys: Geese.

Karen: You use the damn animals for your own argument. You won't let me use them for mine.

Denys: I'd mate for life. One day at a time.

Karen: I'd just like someone to ask me once, that's all. Promise me you'll do that, if I promise to say no?

Denys: Just trust you, eh?

Karen: When you go away, you don't always go on safari, do you just want to be away.

Denys: It's not meant to hurt you.

Karen: It does.

Denys: I'm with you because I choose to be with you. I don't want to live someone else's idea of how to live. Don't ask me to do that. I don't want to find out one day that I'm at the end of someone else's life. I'm willing to pay for mine. To be lonely sometimes. To die alone, if I have to. I think that's fair.

Karen: Not quite. You want me to pay for it as well.

Denys: No, you have a choice, and you're not willing to do the same for me. I won't be closer to you and I won't love you more because of a piece of paper.

Good thread.

~Theo~

[1QuirkyKiwi]

Yes, marriage is for me; or at the very least a commitment ceremony. Love, loyalty, devotion and commitment come from the heart to each other, yet, I want to celebrate that with my friends and family as well as my partner; whom ever she/hy maybe (K and I are no where near this stage).

The only thing I will insist on is keeping my name and hyphenating it with hers/hys. Maori women keep their maiden names and take their husbands’ as well; hyphenating the two.

[chai~]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I wouldn't rule out marriage per se but what I would rule out, from a personal perspective is a "conventional" marriage, whether straight or gay. By this comment, I mean that I never want to live 24/7 with a partner as I value time alone i.e. I could do 24/5 or something along those lines or live in separate condos in the same building or in nearby homes .... just not 24/7.

I'm certainly not alone in my thinking on this and the more"unconventional" is gradually becoming the conventional.

I feel this way also, the 24/7 thing.
I used to work with a guy who's wife lived a 1 hour plane ride away, in a neighboring province.
He was in his 50's and I was 17, so I was fascinated by this concept.
He told me it works because he likes to take work home with him, eat cereal for dinner, sit in the dark with only a lamp on, and pace the room and think. He liked having his space to ponder his life. He also liked being able to "miss" his wife, and knew he could be flying to see her for the weekend, or she would be flying in. They took turns.

I thought it was the best idea EVER!!!!
The drag of the everyday can get to be just that, a drag.
On the weekend, I tend to be more relaxed and wanting to play.
Let's do a movie, go out to dinner, visit friends etc.
Not, It's your turn to take out the garbage, I cleaned the litter box...why do you leave your socks on the floor when the basket is right there!!!! Blah blah blah!!!!

To me, it would be always date night!!!

I guess the immediate idea of marriage, living together, eating together, groceries together, being with someone ALL the time, is just too much for me.

I am luckier than I know, being able to have a partner on my health care insurance, on my emergency call list, etc. I am SO lucky.

Come to Canada everyone, we might have some cookies, but we do have a lot of other things!

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by chai~

I thought it was the best idea EVER!!!!
The drag of the everyday can get to be just that, a drag.
On the weekend, I tend to be more relaxed and wanting to play.
Let's do a movie, go out to dinner, visit friends etc.
Not, It's your turn to take out the garbage, I cleaned the litter box...why do you leave your socks on the floor when the basket is right there!!!! Blah blah blah!!!!

To me, it would be always date night!!!

I like the way you stated this. Sun-Thurs, I am in full-blown, kid-wrangling mode. I leave work, pick up kids, run necessary errands, go home, do homework, do housework, make sure showers are taken & clothes laid out for the next day. And, at some point in the day, I try to have a little "me" time.

Honestly, I think that my life can be a circus.

I understand that there are people out there who would gladly be part of that in exchange for an always quiet house, always eating alone, going to bed alone. But I would never want anyone to think I was looking for a maid, a parent, a tutor, a fellow ringleader etc when what I really wanted was a partner.

[tantalizingfemme]

Had I been asked if I believed in marriage twenty years ago, I would have answered with a resounding "hell no"; but I have come to realize that my perception was tainted by my parents bad marriage and very ugly divorce.

Today, my answer is absolutely. For me, it is the deepest level of commitment, trust and love.

Now, to stray off for a minute, I wanted to say something about this:

Originally Posted by Glenn

Sometimes a prenup won't work. Example: Say your partner signs a prenup and legally marries you, and a few years later you open the business of your dreams and over the next several years you work your ASS off to make lots of $$$$...You put your heart and soul into the business. You're making money, you're giving them the best things in life---cars, clothes,,etc., but then they complain your spending too much time working, so they divorce you for aleiniation of affection or something. Folks, even if the business is not in their name, they can still get 50% of it's earnings because a defense attorney may be able to convince a judge they helped you succeed and they can still continue to earn money from their own career! So, if you're a person that works hard and has money, if you get married, you're gonna lose out to some degree if your partner asks for a divorce. You may not lose 50%, but you'll certainly not MAKE any money from a divorce. Now, just because you signed a pre nup, your still trusting your partner not to put up a fight and just walk away. At the very least, they can still take you to court and that costs time and money.

I guess the way I look at this is:

Let's say that Dapperbutch and I were married and hy started a business that helped people learn how to ask the right million questions to clarify whatever they needed clarification for, in life.

So imagine 10 years down the line, when hys business is successful...when hy is world renowned and featured every Wednesday night at 8:00pm on OWN TV for hys expertise on the Art of Questioning, I decide I want a divorce. Is it hys success and hys success only? No. Because 10 years earlier, hy wanted to start a business and he needed support. For hym to start this business, hy needed to rent space to be able to work (because I don't think the marriage would have lasted that long had it been run out of the house) and that costs money, as did all necessary equipment, services, business license, insurance etc...

Now, as we all know, businesses normally do not make money for the first few years, and most of hys time would be at the site. Well, I imagine it would have been my salary that would cover the loan payments, and bills for a while, along with my having to cover hys medical and dental insurance through my agency. Not just the money I paid out, but I would have managed the household, the household bills and any issues that come up at home so that hy was able be able to concentrate on building hys business.

And let's not forget emotional support. I was the one that was there for hym, during the ups and downs all these years, cheerleading him on. (imagine the pom pom smiley here)

Would it seem reasonable that when we divorced that I don't get anything from the business? To me it doesn't. And for most people I know who own their own businesses, the spouse is the person that does everything outside of the business to make it possible for that person to focus on the business and not have to worry about household/child issues. So I believe that I would be entitled to a percentage of the business, as I did help to build it.

I hope that all made sense.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

[Trey339]

A Definite 'Yes'

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I wouldn't rule out marriage per se but what I would rule out, from a personal perspective is a "conventional" marriage, whether straight or gay. By this comment, I mean that I never want to live 24/7 with a partner as I value time alone i.e. I could do 24/5 or something along those lines or live in separate condos in the same building or in nearby homes .... just not 24/7.

I'm certainly not alone in my thinking on this and the more"unconventional" is gradually becoming the conventional.

I think this would be the ideal situation...I love living with Kasey and the family we have made...I love coming home to her, and watching her sleep...but I would LOVE to have a couple of days a week, month, whatever to myself. I crave alone time, and now that she works from home I get very little.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

I think this would be the ideal situation...I love living with Kasey and the family we have made...I love coming home to her, and watching her sleep...but I would LOVE to have a couple of days a week, month, whatever to myself. I crave alone time, and now that she works from home I get very little.

Although I am not married, I am in a 3 year monogomous relationship with my girlfriend. I spent many years living alone. Either I was "dating" or in a serious long distance relationhip. I discovered the joys of alone time.

Logistically I have the best scenario going, for me. I live next door to my girlfriend. Our schedules allow the two of us some alone time at least once a week. My gf has joint custody of her 9 year old daughter and finding alone time can be a challenge.

I am not complaining. What I am saying is that I have found that the "traditional" set up may not always work in the best interest of my relationship and maybe for others.

[Cin]

For me, there has always been marriage between myself and those I love, whether it was legally sanctioned by the state or not. Marriage means a commitment of my heart. And I wouldn’t be with you if I were not committed to you. Well, it happened once. However, I prefer to believe that was an anomaly brought about in response to a unique set of circumstances and not likely to reoccur. So when I partner it has always been a marriage to me. However the benefit of a legal marriage is another matter and one I had not considered important until recently.

Truly Scrumptious and I lived in different countries and when we first began our relationship neither country recognized same sex marriage. However, Canada recognized common law or conjugal relationships between same sex partners for purposes of immigration. The U.S. has no provision for same sex partner immigration, so there didn’t need to be a lot of conversation about what we were going to do.

It was right around the time of my moving to Quebec, that Canada decided to recognize gay marriage federally. It would be another six years before we would get married.

I married Truly because I love her, of course, but also for legal purposes and in the hopes that someday I might be able to bring my wife home to be near the other love of my life, the Cape Cod National Seashore. I married for the ease and convenience that marriage affords. Although I had a hard time figuring out what those conveniences were living here. In Canada one need not be married to claim one another for income tax purposes. In Quebec, if they offer health insurance, employers are required by law to insure the partners of employees including same sex partners, or any common law/conjugal partner of any sex. Also in Quebec when you marry no names are changed. If you want your name changed you need to go and do it legally and pay for it. It is not an automatic thing. So really I was hard pressed to imagine what the difference a piece of paper could possibly make. I did figure it would make things easier in the event of illness or death. Although a friend who gives financial advice for a living recommends a will for ease and speed. Yet, I could not help but think if we were married it would appear more of a commitment.

Although we could have gotten married in Montreal, we chose to marry in Vermont in order to keep a foothold in the U.S. On the off chance that the U.S. would recognize gay marriage on a federal level, we thought it would look good if we could say we had been married in the U.S. It is a way of keeping the possibility of coming back there to live with my wife a viable option should anything change. I did not choose to leave my country. My country pushed me away when it refused to allow me to sponsor the woman I loved for immigration. When it would not let me bring her home, the U.S. gave me no choice but to change my home so that my heart could stay in my chest rather than follow Truly to Canada alone. It is more difficult than I imagined to love two countries. Canada has earned my loyalty but the United States holds my history. I thought I would walk away from the U.S. and never look back, especially considering how pissed off I was about how things ended between us. But it is not that easy to turn one’s back on one’s roots. Besides I may have been forced to leave if I wanted to be with the woman I love, but I’m not letting them take any more away from me. It’s not that easy to get rid of me. So I still vote in U.S. elections and stay involved in U.S. politics. For me, legalizing marriage on the federal level in the U.S. means moving back there with my wife becomes an option. That is one benefit gay marriage affords us. The residing country for those in binational relationships becomes one of choice. Instead of a hmmm, what country will have us, then let’s move there, kind of thing. Not that we might not have chosen Canada anyway given socialized medicine, which is awesome by the way. As well as how the heart of the distinct society called Quebec matches mine so well. But it would have been our decision. And the pain of missing my ocean would feel different if I had chosen it.

When we decided to get married, I never imagined it would feel any differently. I knew I could not love T.S. more because of a piece of paper. I believed it would have no effect whatsoever. I was wrong. It deeply moved me. The ceremony itself and the reality of being married, of being legally required to be here, has been profoundly affecting.

I’m not a fan of prenups. I get why they are important but it feels like I’m betting against myself.

The idea of keeping separate condos or houses is an interesting one, but it is unlikely that the average couple could afford to maintain two homes, regardless of how independent they would like to remain. I guess it’s a good option if you have the finances for it. It is difficult enough for most people I know to live with roommates or partners sharing expenses. A singular existence is becoming more and more economically difficult in these hard times. I guess one could keep the apartment one has with one’s roommate or roommates. But I would imagine for many, if they have to live with someone, pool finances and share expenses it might as well be their spouse. Most will likely have to settle for reading a book in another room, or if they only have one room, they will have to take long walks alone, wander through a bookstore, take in a soft ball game at a neighborhood park or find some other affordable way to get the valued time alone they crave.

[Chancie]

For me, these are two different questions, whether I would get married, if full equal legal marriage were available to same sex couples, and whether I believe in serious lifelong commitment.

I can't imagine being with anyone but Pete, and maybe we'll make a public commitment in front of our familes and close friends, but even in Massachusetts, there are only limited legal protections. I miss her like crazy when we are apart during the week, but sometimes I think, What the hell would I do if she were here when I got home from work and all I want to do is drink seltzer and watch The Big Bang Theory. Next door sounds great to me.

My ex and I used to say that we wanted to be together forever, one day at a time, but by the time she fell out of love with me, she wasn't much interested in working towards a healthy loving end to our ten year relationship. Our commitment ceremony predated same sex marriage in Massachusetts, and I was put in the position of having to hire a lawyer to protect my financial interests in the home we bought and lived in together.

I know it's not a popular idea, but I see same sex marriage as offering legal and contractual protection and as a civil rights issue, but not a measure of true commitment to a relationship.

[Bella~Vita]

A while back I would of said yes to marriage, but now I love my alone time. My partner has hys own place down the road from me. Actually, it works out quite well. When we want to be together we can. And also enjoy own independence. I feel I have the best of both worlds. It's not about being able to be with someone else because we have an understanding that we are partners .... this is the happiest I been in quite awhile. We decided in the beginning that we would not rush it. So we took months of just getting to know one another without the sex, it was the best decision for me and hym.


It works for us so far.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by Chancie

For me, these are two different questions, whether I would get married, if full equal legal marriage were available to same sex couples, and whether I believe in serious lifelong commitment.

I can't imagine being with anyone but Pete, and maybe we'll make a public commitment in front of our familes and close friends, but even in Massachusetts, there are only limited legal protections. I miss her like crazy when we are apart during the week, but sometimes I think, What the hell would I do if she were here when I got home from work and all I want to do is drink seltzer and watch The Big Bang Theory. Next door sounds great to me.

My ex and I used to say that we wanted to be together forever, one day at a time, but by the time she fell out of love with me, she wasn't much interested in working towards a healthy loving end to our ten year relationship. Our commitment ceremony predated same sex marriage in Massachusetts, and I was put in the position of having to hire a lawyer to protect my financial interests in the home we bought and lived in together.

I know it's not a popular idea, but I see same sex marriage as offering legal and contractual protection and as a civil rights issue, but not a measure of true commitment to a relationship.

A lot of very good points.

If someone no longer wants to work and make the marriage a living thing, no piece of paper is going to keep them there.

I really wish that we as a whole were better at fighting for our basic civil rights so that "marriage" would not be the focus of the struggle to earn an equal playing field in jobs/housing/basic human dignity.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

I think this would be the ideal situation...I love living with Kasey and the family we have made...I love coming home to her, and watching her sleep...but I would LOVE to have a couple of days a week, month, whatever to myself. I crave alone time, and now that she works from home I get very little.

The difficulty that I sometimes have is one of societal expectations and many of those expectations are the same whether we are straight, gay or somewhere in between.

One of those expectations is that, if you're in love with someone you want to spend 24 / 7 with them. I've no doubt that works for many, probably most, folk but it just doesn't for me. Part of the reason may be that I've spent most of my adult life either single or in what would be termed reasonably casual relationships.

As a result, I've become accustomed to my own space and feel very claustrophic if I feel it's under threat and, furthermore, for right or wrong, whilst I've craved love and intimacy, I've not craved it in a 24 / 7 sense.

I just cannot do 24 / 7 in that "normal way" .... closest I could get to this would be separate bedrooms / living spaces in the same h.ouse.

The difficultly I often have is that, in the past, when articulating these feelings to partners, many have felt slighted or have questioned my commitment when, from my perspective, it wasn't about love or commitment ... but about preserving my sanity and preserving and actually strengthening a relationship.

[MsTinkerbelly]

For those of you choosing "alternate joining" rather than marriage as your status, would you mind explaining your arrangements and why not "marriage", and for those choosing no marriage ever, what led you to this point?

[Gráinne]

I think I'm harder to live with as I get older. I get "peopled out" easily at work, and love to come home to a shower and a bowl of Raisin Bran for dinner. I like keeping my home as I like it, and not picking up all the time after someone else. If I want to decorate it a certain way, it can be mine, all mine .

Ciaran's posts ring a bell for me. I'm so much better when I have about 2x "me time" for 1x "couple time", if that makes sense. It's not a reflection on my partner, but what I need to be happiest.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by guihong

I think I'm harder to live with as I get older. I get "peopled out" easily at work, and love to come home to a shower and a bowl of Raisin Bran for dinner. I like keeping my home as I like it, and not picking up all the time after someone else. If I want to decorate it a certain way, it can be mine, all mine .

Ciaran's posts ring a bell for me. I'm so much better when I have about 2x "me time" for 1x "couple time", if that makes sense. It's not a reflection on my partner, but what I need to be happiest.

I am soooo glad to hear you and Ciaran address this. I feel similar. I have a life filled with things that make me who I am and make me happy. Being part of a couple isnt a substitute for this, it is an adjunct.

Finding the right mix of "me" time and "we" time can be tricky to say the least.

[Ginger]

It's been pointed out to me that if my partner and I married, my taxes would likely go through the roof, and I would be liable for her debt (not that she's a gambler or anything; I just mean, in general).

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

It's been pointed out to me that if my partner and I married, my taxes would likely go through the roof, and I would be liable for her debt (not that she's a gambler or anything; I just mean, in general).

I don't believe that is for the debt that he/she comes in with, but it probably would be for any debt she creates while in the marriage, if you divorce. To be sure, check where you live.

With that said, certainly we are held hostage to our new spouse's debt in one way or another. If I have 50K in debt, it surely would impact how many vacations I could go on with Tantalizing. Thus, my debt would be impacting her life if she is debt free and wants to go away every other month.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I don't believe that is for the debt that he/she comes in with, but it probably would be for any debt she creates while in the marriage, if you divorce. To be sure, check where you live.

With that said, certainly we are held hostage to our new spouse's debt in one way or another. If I have 50K in debt, it surely would impact how many vacations I could go on with Tantalizing. Thus, my debt would be impacting her life if she is debt free and wants to go away every other month.

The person who pointed that out to me is my partner herself, LOL.

[Christy51274]

Being married is fun, so long as it's with the right person. Been married twice and they say the third time's a charm. Of course, it's not for everyone, but I kinda like it.