Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't think this will be an easy conversation, hell it may be a hard one but I do feel one that must be had. I also felt it needed to be out of the thread that AtlastHome made, yes I am aware it includes everyone, yet I feel if femme's go in there it will change it due to sometimes it turns into a pick up zone or flirt zone. This is a thread that can do some good hence the start of this one. I am also aware I may get my ass handed to me.

*deep breath*

How do we support in the building of friendships between the butches and transmen in our community?

I hope we can be honest and transparent in this convo.

[waxnrope]

I don't think that anyone should, um, handle your arse, Lady Snow. just saying (I've caught myself agreeing with you of late) ... I think that it's a idea good to have a "butch/transmen only" thread (even though AtLast invited everyone ...) it seems to me, in my limited time and experiences here, that when femmes enter, our dynamics shift or change somewhat. And no, I'm too tired to give examples. 'sides, it is always a "feeling" that I have when reading posts. Nuanced ...

And yes, we should also have this discussion open and here ... and as well as having Atlast's or another thread as a place, a zone, where butch/transmen, etc. can bond and talk ... it has already done a good thing for me ... I have new friends!

I just reread this and I'm not sure that I've made a lick of sense ... it's time for my pup's walk!

[blush]

Hi, Lady Snow!
Are you asking this question to femmes or to butches and transmen? Or is it an open question for both groups?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

Hi, Lady Snow!
Are you asking this question to femmes or to butches and transmen? Or is it an open question for both groups?

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

[SuperFemme]

I'm struggling to come up with a response to this thread.

I have answers and they are not popular.

I have to wonder if sometimes Femmes don't benefit from building fences rather than bridges. Why? Because then we get to go in and cheerlead and champion and nurture.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I'm struggling to come up with a response to this thread.

I have answers and they are not popular.

I have to wonder if sometimes Femmes don't benefit from building fences rather than bridges. Why? Because then we get to go in and cheerlead and champion and nurture.

I am fully aware that some thoughts and opinions that will be expressed here will not be popular ones...

I am not ashamed to say I have done nothing to stop this as I watch it happen or hear it or see it.

I sit back and do nothing or keep quiet so I am not the constant cunt.

Today I am ok with that, and yes SF I do feel we femmes cause A LOT of tall fences when it comes to dividing these two groups.

NOT all femme's, but some of us do.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am fully aware that some thoughts and opinions that will be expressed here will not be popular ones...

I am not ashamed to say I have done nothing to stop this as I watch it happen or hear it or see it.

I sit back and do nothing or keep quiet so I am not the constant cunt.

Today I am ok with that, and yes SF I do feel we femmes cause A LOT of tall fences when it comes to dividing these two groups.

NOT all femme's, but some of us do.

No really.

Do you know what I am talking about?

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

oh! sorry, I misinterpreted your intent. this, then, is a thread for femmes, right. I'll just read respectfully and keep to the other thread then.
Thanks for clarifying ...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

oh! sorry, I misinterpreted your intent. this, then, is a thread for femmes, right. I'll just read respectfully and keep to the other thread then.
Thanks for clarifying ...

I just figured you would want the space in the other thread...

I was not sure how to handle it, I am ok if you are here, if everyone else is.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I just figured you would want the space in the other thread...

I was not sure how to handle it, I am ok if you are here, if everyone else is.

I have no objections but I haven't read the other thread I find the subject of this thread to be very compelling as a stand-alone and I'm very much looking forward to reading it.

[Nat]

I always thought it was cool that the UK butch femme transguy site has

A space for Butches and Transguys to discuss identities and issues relating to them, they often overlap. Femmes are welcome in this room but must refrain from posting in threads where Femmes are requested not to do so.

and

A space for Femmes to discuss identities and issues relating to them. Butches and Transguys are welcome in this room but must refrain from posting in threads where Butches and Transguys are requested not to do so.

Because I think there are potentially times when people of different identities may need a bit of sanctuary while working stuff out about their/our IDs.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here!

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here!

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

I would like to say that I'm wondering the same thing. Not that I don't appreciate the other side but I really thought this was about femmes discussing this and letting butches have their say in another thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

My apologies for just getting to this my cousin died, my gfather is dying, SF is in the hospital, a kid turned 10, Grant keeps distracting me with unmarked flesh, and our Pride is this weekend...

Originally Posted by blush

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here!

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

Here was my intent, I thought it was going to be a good idea to have this here, a place where femme's could talk about it.

Here is why:

I love how we communicate.

I love how no matter how hard shit gets in our convos we do it and do it with passion.

I thought after watching a post go up in ALH's thread( having nothing to do with the convo) putting this thread here was a good idea.

I thought when I said we (femme's) could talk about it, it was not going to cast blame on one specific gender, I thought the space would be respected (post #2) obviously proved me wrong.

I thought well I don't care who participates cause by then (after post 2) the space was already different than my very well clear intent.

I thought we could learn from this I feel we have.

Originally Posted by firie

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

At this point Ms firie, this thread can stay full of butches, femme's trans guys, monkeys, snakes, or any other thing that gives valuable in put, or not. I learned something, and well I knew better.

Don't start a thread.

Stick to saving

It's just clearly simple, we are grown as folk, respect eachother's identifications, personal space, their boundaries..

This is shit we should of learned back in Kindergarden..

Once again I thought ATH's thread could be left to those particular community member so that some friendships can be built.

Privilege me?

*laughs*

Wanna hang out with me for a week? I am not all that privileged.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I would like to say that I'm wondering the same thing. Not that I don't appreciate the other side but I really thought this was about femmes discussing this and letting butches have their say in another thread.

See above posting to Ms blush Ms ArweN...

I honestly got all bleh, after having to defend my right to draw boundaries..

I mean if that isn't ironic I don't know what is...

[firie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...

I could be wrong. Thought I would give it a go though

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

[blush]

This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

This thread makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

And here's why:
It feels like, once again, we femmes are being held accountable for the community (or lack of community) between butches and transmen. Even though we are repeatedly told we are not a part of male-id'ed/female id'ed butch or transmen communities(yanno, cuz we're femme. We couldn't possibly have an opinion on those communities). Yet now we are going to discuss our influences in these communities. After awhile, it starts to feel like a "gotcha!" It starts to feel like a trap.

So why am I here? Cause I like Super Femme and The Lady Snow. And I'm secretly hoping I'm wrong.

It's not a trap..

It's a hard conversation, and as much as we don't like it..

We femme's do perpetuate what may or may not happen..

I don't think we aren't allowed opinions, so can I have some clarification on that?


It does happen...

I don't think we are super imposing all responsibilities on femme's alone.

Yes I gotta be honest we do have some influence

Can you please help me out to understand why you feel this may be a trap?

Please?

[Martina]

i'd like to participate, but i kinda feel like i may be one of the people SF was talking about in the post about speaking for butches and that Snow meant when talking about building fences. i hope i never speak for a butch. i have no idea what it's like to be a butch. But i have gotten embroiled in a number of the discussions re the position of female-identified butches on this site and the other.

i feel like i am speaking from my experience of what i have seen.

i definitely know i am not participating to get the approval of a butch or catch her/hys/his attention.

i imagine that people might think i am one of the people building the fences between the two groups. i know that is not my intent.

Maybe i have spent too much time on chat and heard too many femmes refuse to honor a butch's chosen pronouns of she/her and talk about being a true femme and dating only real butches -- and we all know what that stuff means.

i just got fed up. And i saw a lot of sexism in it. And it bothered me.

i hope i have not built fences. But i just really dislike the sexist and homophobic elements in our culture, and i can't seem to ignore them.

So the effect has been that i have stirred some shit in those threads.

How can i influence people to build bridges? i honestly don't know.

i think calling other femmes on their heteronormative bullshit is a first step. That creates some hostility and resentment between groups.

i don't see myself as a support for any category of people on this site or in the butch-femme community. i really basically stand up when i feel something is unfair or needs to be said.

[SuperFemme]

good points martina.

lets talk about that. let's be brave.

why would anyone NOT honor chosen pronouns?

how can we encourage each other to honor them? whatever they are?

how can we honor each other in that process?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

Please don't feel shitty. I'm one of those that does this. I've also taken heat for admitting I'm lazy about pronouns. I chose not to defend myself because a lot was said that was true even though a lot was said that was not true.

I tend to take up for the transguy. Part of that is because I feel like some people put them down for not staying in the role of butch lesbian. Part of that is because I have an over-inflated sense of self-worth and think my opinion matters.

This thing about fences...I can see that.

This thing about it not being my job to foster friendship/community between the transguys and the butches...that was my first response when I read this thread.

Then I went back to the idea of fences. I need to gnaw on that a bit. I want to say that I don't do that, but then again, maybe I do somehow. Hiroshima was my fault too.

I guess, for me, I need to know what does community look like for the transguy and what does it look like for the butch. Is it that different? Is it divided into transguys who fully transition and transguys who don't and transguys who really don't define themselves by what body parts they do or don't have? Is it divided between masculine-id butches and female-id butches and butches who don't give a rat's ass as long as they can be who they are?

How do I as a Femme fit into this? What is my responsibility?

I think that my only responsibility is to work on my own hula hoop and stop speaking for others even if I really do know better then they do what they want to say. (that's self-directed sarcasm for all the Arwen-haters, k?)

I think I need to be friends with and not worry about what others choose to identify as. I am working on not being lazy (even in my own head) about pronouns. I never meant that in a disrespectful way. It was self-deprecating and, for what it's worth, more honest than I guess I should have been.And I have NEVER intentionally disrespected anyone's choice of pronoun. In fact, it's a habit of mine to just ask someone what they want to be called.

I really want to talk more about this idea of fences. Do you really think we (generic) are trying to cut those non-femmes into smaller groups so it's easier to find the ones we are attracted to? Am I understanding you correctly or going off on a wild Arwen tangent?