Gender Fluidity

[Jett]

Loosely a person who is consistently, rhythmically gender fluid or flexible that doesn't fit neatly into the binary confines of one gender or another nor the idea that a person feels only one gender energy in life. It can be an identity, "Gender Fluid", on it's own, or an identity within or on top of an identity such as Butch, Femme, Trans, Boi etc. or for some it can be a simple state of being with or without other IDs.

A gender fluid person may experience feeling "both" simultaneously and/or make subtle shifts between the feeling of one then another. For some maybe it's drastic but for me not a slish-slosh sudden parting of the red sea, it's a clear ebb and flow of a tide of energies, not male/female, not woman/man but the hard sharp lines and soft curves of energies... of which neither ever leaves me entirely... but there is a "base energy".

This is what gender fluid is to me.

I think it's one of the more misunderstood and invalidated gender experiences. I've heard people intricately argue why gender cannot be fluid, or how it's an affront. And well perhaps it's a stick to their binary eye or their personal experience is more linear than mine. I dunno, but viva la difference. (I definitely invite all contrary opinions here)

For the sake of clarity I'm not talking Switches or extreme sport cross dressing. To me that's something else entirely (though thinking now, I imagine it could intertwine for some). I've always been very boy-ish outwardly despite the fluidity except in subtle outward so-called gender "inconsistencies" that fit with my own personal likes and dislikes.

I realize it's different for everyone who is more gender fluid, different starting places, different extremes, general opinions. I'm just curious to hear others thoughts. Any takers?

[Jett]

Oh and I forgot I wanted to mention gender as a social construct. Does that make it just our imagination? I don't think so... we live in a highly gender oriented world and the majority of things around us are "gendered" by society... from clothes to behaviors to colors right down to movements. That is a concrete reality we live in from birth to death and we develop or have strong internal feelings based on that... gender fluid or not everyone does.

[waxnrope]

Thanks for starting this conversation, Metro.

I have something to offer, to add, to disclose, perhaps, but will wait till I can use a real keyboard and concentrate on my thoughts, instead of one finger on the phone.

I will say that, in poking fun at my own id (and NOT the id of the made fun of other ...), I refer to myself as a faggy butch. A term originally given me by a gay man who was an interior designer.

[Soft*Silver]

gender fluidity is not the same as orientation fluidity. I am fluid in my orientation but thats a different thread. I just wanted to point it out tho.

Metro, I actually met someone that was fluid in their gender. It became part of her process to transition from male to female but for a portion of her journey, she was betwixt and between, neither/both. A movement of hers, a tone of her voice, even a dip of her face transformed an entirely different "clue". I say "clue" because people tried to figure her out. She was content in this state for a time but grew restless as the world around her changed and allow her further growth and evolution.

I use "her" because that is where she decided to go. She is who she is now...but at that time, she was distinctly "fluid" and at that moment, it wasnt just a passing thru. It was exactly who she was. She was not a flap that flip flopped. Oh no no no. God I remember looking into her eyes and feeling a "suck in" of my god core. In getting to know her, I realized what a spiritual being she was. (talking to her, you would know how spiritual she was) She wasnt a mix of genders. She was gendered, yet a fuller expression of what gender is, without having to claim one form or another. (I revisit my memory of her every now and then. She is one of my most favorite beings I have encountered this time on this earth.)

I immediately gravitated to her and she gravitated to me when we first met. We understood each other before we said a word. I was "with" someone at the time and felt very uncomfortable with the connection I had with her. I was also uncomfortable because she was obviously femme. I could not believe I was drawn to a feminine spirit, male/female. But had I not been with someone, I would have followed through with this connection. But because I was, I did not put myself in places where I would be near her. We kept a communication, tho distant. I no longer communicate with her. Life, you know...

I so love the fluidity of gender. I love the depth and magnitude it can be expressed within and beyond its social and genetic and spiritual "containers", which to me is the body,mind and soul, the sacred trilogy of human existance. She was the best expression I have met about this fluidity...

[Jett]

Thanks for your story softness, your friend sounds wonderful, and it's good to hear words of such understanding. I've often found a lot of resistance to the idea that one can be gender fluid, and read a lot of balking response in different places to the sheer idea of it.

I'll admit that the idea was hard for me to absorb because I spent a lot of energy and life trying to fit into ready made "categories", each time just trying to have something concrete.

But the ebb and flow is something I've experienced since I can remember and made my attempts at outward self "identification" rocky at best.

You know it's funny, it's really so simple inwardly, all of it natural, flows seamlessly and compatible but when you try to express it in current language it sounds oppositional and complex... it's not really. Perhaps that's why some peeps are so resistant to the idea of it. I've found people who know me personally seem to totally get it better, in the words of a friend "it's palpable".

Anyway thanks, though I feel happy and content in who I am I hesitated in putting this thread up b/c of the potential misunderstandings but you've made me feel better on it.

Metro
(and thanks for pointing out it's about gender and not sexual orientation, females of the femme persuasion have always been my cup o' tea, it's not about that)

[Soft*Silver]

Actually, Metro, I have seen you as fluid from the beginning, tho I said nothing because labels are for those who own the body, not the one who sees the body. But from the first posting, I read you as fluid.

I think I can See with ease because of my own fluidity. I am comfortable not having a rock solid orientation to stand on. I use the term lesbian because it is the closest I can come to it, but those who know me, like your friends say about you and your gender, know the flow of the river of my orientation.


and yes, inwardly its so simple but our language and our social boundaries do not permit it verbally expressed without genuine effort and creativity. Its why I follow you around, you know. I feel like I dont have to put forth such an effort. Sometimes I just simply read you silently so that I can feel your energy. You make me feel less alone sometimes. Even tho its orientation in my regard and gender in yours. I can feel the rock of your waves and it soothes me.

I am SO glad you started this thread...

for the record, just because someone says it isnt real, doesnt make it unreal. Just because someone calls it something else, doesnt make it what its said to be. Words are not vaporizers. Unless you let them be...

[Apocalipstic]

There seem to be so many expectations of how certain genders and/or orientations should be. Usually outward appearance being the driving force, when really what we look like might have nothing to do with what is inside.

In an on line community people say all sorts of this, some right, some not. I am having to learn to block a good amount of it out because it is just an opinion.

I see myself as pretty fluid. There are times I have male energy, sometimes female...I am constantly changing and flowing...which is why I really like the term "fluid".

Great thread Metropolis!

[Jett]

Originally Posted by softness

Actually, Metro, I have seen you as fluid from the beginning, tho I said nothing because labels are for those who own the body, not the one who sees the body. But from the first posting, I read you as fluid.

I think I can See with ease because of my own fluidity. I am comfortable not having a rock solid orientation to stand on. I use the term lesbian because it is the closest I can come to it, but those who know me, like your friends say about you and your gender, know the flow of the river of my orientation.


and yes, inwardly its so simple but our language and our social boundaries do not permit it verbally expressed without genuine effort and creativity. Its why I follow you around, you know. I feel like I dont have to put forth such an effort. Sometimes I just simply read you silently so that I can feel your energy. You make me feel less alone sometimes. Even tho its orientation in my regard and gender in yours. I can feel the rock of your waves and it soothes me.

I am SO glad you started this thread...

for the record, just because someone says it isnt real, doesnt make it unreal. Just because someone calls it something else, doesnt make it what its said to be. Words are not vaporizers. Unless you let them be...

Oop... see... now I'm going to have to report you for stalking... (no actually that's quite flattering).

I think it was something very hard to "see" in myself, though I've been aware of the fluidity for years, I was used to it, it was just "me". But my personal struggles with labels/identities really made me have to take a closer look at it... when I did my struggles with those things made sense.

Like you, I am very comfortable with it, I couldn't always say that...

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

There seem to be so many expectations of how certain genders and/or orientations should be. Usually outward appearance being the driving force, when really what we look like might have nothing to do with what is inside.

In an on line community people say all sorts of this, some right, some not. I am having to learn to block a good amount of it out because it is just an opinion.

I see myself as pretty fluid. There are times I have male energy, sometimes female...I am constantly changing and flowing...which is why I really like the term "fluid".

Great thread Metropolis!

Yeah I think it bothers some people if others aren't in line with "their" particular idea of sex, gender, identity etc. or even worse if you aren't static. Like it's some kind of affront to them, if not that I don't know why some seem to peep about it so much.

I have to block a lot of it out too, and then there's the days I can't keep my trap shut... heh.

And ty Apoc...

Metro

[Apocalipstic]

It freaks me out that because my outward appearance is feminine, I am assumed to be "the girl" in every single aspect of my life.

I don't see ID or gender as that one dimensional. Apoc has on a dress, so she must be a Betty Crocker, muffin baking, bottom, stay at home mom (Dog Forbid.) Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I have never wanted that....and I am not even going to go into how the kids might turn out.

Even in my earliest days of sexual discovery and reading books with dirty parts, I saw myself as the Dude.

When my cousins and sister were collecting things in their "hope chests" and planning their weddings at age 9, I knew I would never be like them. I saw myself in neutral terms mostly, or like my sister was a girl and I was a boy, but not a regular boy....a quiet precocious boy who read and drew and listened to music. A weird girl/boy caught in a very gendered Southern Baptist hell.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by softness

gender fluidity is not the same as orientation fluidity. I am fluid in my orientation but thats a different thread. I just wanted to point it out tho.

Metro, I actually met someone that was fluid in their gender. It became part of her process to transition from male to female but for a portion of her journey, she was betwixt and between, neither/both. A movement of hers, a tone of her voice, even a dip of her face transformed an entirely different "clue". I say "clue" because people tried to figure her out. She was content in this state for a time but grew restless as the world around her changed and allow her further growth and evolution.

I use "her" because that is where she decided to go. She is who she is now...but at that time, she was distinctly "fluid" and at that moment, it wasnt just a passing thru. It was exactly who she was. She was not a flap that flip flopped. Oh no no no. God I remember looking into her eyes and feeling a "suck in" of my god core. In getting to know her, I realized what a spiritual being she was. (talking to her, you would know how spiritual she was) She wasnt a mix of genders. She was gendered, yet a fuller expression of what gender is, without having to claim one form or another. (I revisit my memory of her every now and then. She is one of my most favorite beings I have encountered this time on this earth.)

I immediately gravitated to her and she gravitated to me when we first met. We understood each other before we said a word. I was "with" someone at the time and felt very uncomfortable with the connection I had with her. I was also uncomfortable because she was obviously femme. I could not believe I was drawn to a feminine spirit, male/female. But had I not been with someone, I would have followed through with this connection. But because I was, I did not put myself in places where I would be near her. We kept a communication, tho distant. I no longer communicate with her. Life, you know...

I so love the fluidity of gender. I love the depth and magnitude it can be expressed within and beyond its social and genetic and spiritual "containers", which to me is the body,mind and soul, the sacred trilogy of human existance. She was the best expression I have met about this fluidity...

Heh, this just kind reminded me of a fall evening in a small bar on the shores of Superior some years back.

A young blonde women sitting at the bar eventually got up and moved to the stool beside me. I don't remember how she started the convo but she spent the next couple hours with this smiley perplexed goofy expression on her face while she question me about my sex/gender etc. "You're a guy", a moment passes "no, nope... you're definitely female"...then "oh MY gawddd I can't figure you out" (and right, I wasn't feeling like giving her answers).

At first it was a little itchy, but I wasn't offended. She was clearly happily fascinated and enjoyed my gender "presence" very much, though quite forward it was a positive reaction. Besides I was a little bored prior and found her quite nice and fairly entertaining so what's to be all aghast about.

Funny now looking back at the fact that she couldn't figure me was the irony that she sort of did.

Ok, I think I need some more coffee... slept late and I'm not quite awake yet...

Metro

[Soft*Silver]

I give that young lady some gold stars for being so open and comfortable with exploring her own questions about your gender.

I have dated some butches who by appearance, are mistaken for male. I say mistaken because they IDd female, even if they were uncomfortable being female. I wouldnt consider them fluid...at all.

Which brings me to another point...I want to point out, in my opinion, that fluidity isnt about someone who wants to be what gender they arent, or someone who is unhappy with their gender. Fluidity is really like a river running past. You stand in the river and you are always you but the flow of the water, even tho it is always water, is never the same. But is always the same. Thats how I see fluidity....

I am glad you had that experience with the young blonde..you made me smile as I visualized it...

[Jett]

Softness your description does it justice, and I agree. I've often likened it to an ebb and flow of tides of energies, but I like the way you put it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

hey Met

My partner identifies as gender fluid or has having more than one gender. I strongly ID this way as well. The difference is that both of her genders are masculine orientated: butch woman, and... there is no name she can give the other gender, nor classification. Mine ... both are feminine, one is femme - which has no determined sex associated with it and is rather... masculine feminine, and I wish I could articulate it better. and the other is woman.

For me, it's much like two train tracks that run parallel and occasionally share the same track and then cross over and run parallel again. They are definitely distinct.

for my partner, her genders occationally clash with each other, purely from one being associated with her female body (butch woman) and the other doesn't really match.

I also understand this as I also often occupy gender neutral in my head and when that occurs, my body doesn't make much sense and it's a pain in the ass. However, it can be confusing for me as my gender neutral space is a "respite" place and can be a bit dissociative, body wise as it's sexless.

my partners body causes her self-confusion when she inhabits one of her genders, whereas my body just fucks me off for "misbehaving" (not being sexless, smooth, slender and without curves).

Sometimes I think it's just "headspace" and sometimes I feel it's a completely gender valid way to be. I tend not to examine it too much as doing so really just gives me existential angst and I've had too much of that in my life already. I is who I is, my partner gets me, I get her, it's of no importance to my friends or family and I usually have no urge to discuss it with anyone anyway as it's near impossible to articulate in any meaningful way. there doesn't really seem to be any words to describe it properly that doesn't "miss the mark." None in English anyway.

It's sort of like trying to describe my version of "god" (which isn't god as I'm by all functional descriptors an atheist but that isn't completely correct but the wonder of the universe described by all the atheists I know describes exactly what I mean by "god" and most of them get my metaphor if they aren't being dogmatic). Trying to describe it only lessens the understanding because of shitty language.

So, I just "be" in it.

[Nat]

Lovely thread

I've spent a lot of time publicly dissecting my gender experience. For whatever reason I was riddled with shame through most of it. Constantly worrying, wondering if i was okay, valid.

Though I wouldn't necessarily come up with the term fluidity - Met's description comes closer than most to my experience.

I feel like I'm both male and female and both feminine and masculine. I really don't know how others experience me, but I tend to live in the femme. It is what it is, I am what I am.

The person I'm seeing is not butch and not trans. I experience her as fluid, though I'm not sure she'd describe herself that way. Sometimes to me she is this gorgeous and feminine woman and sometimes she's this beautiful tomboy, and these energies seem to flicker in her pretty much all the time. She's complex and transfixing and magnetic.

I wondered for a while if being with her would affect my femme identity over time - if I would draw closer to some imaginary center-line - but so far that hasn't happened. If I were a heart, femme would be the systolic contraction and guy would be the diastolic. Such is life. At least, such is my life.

Identity seems to be a hole I can fall into. It's helpful at times, but at the moment I find it's something that doesn't affirm me much. Being around other people who get femmes and sharing the company of other femmes just makes my heart sing. But in my daily life, I am just so conflicted about identity that I'd just rather not focus on it at all. Though I consider myself a femme, I can only do it on the days where it feels elastic enough to fit me. Being around other femmes makes me feel free again, re-affirms me somehow.

[Jett]

Thanks Barb and Nat!

Barb yes it is a elusive paragraph and I'm hesitant. I've written and tossed, one I posted and deleted saying hell why did I start this thread? (and I just re-vamped this one). It really feels quite core and I'm not the greatest sharer at that level but I thought it might be of use to someone... and admittedly I've been a bit bored since my lady's out of town.

I guess I could simply say for me it's a consistent, rhythmic flexible flow of distinctly changing energy...

or...

just explain that for me I'm a predominately and outwardly a *pretty boi who occupies a semi-gq gender space but easily slides around the "mascuninity" space that surrounds that part of the gender spectrum... and then some.

I'm not at odds with my female body despite my gender spectrum essentially being masculinely orientated, it's all female originated and it seems quite natural if that makes sense. Anyway I'm quite "flat" already ... and sometimes the contrasts of my hips with that seem pretty right for all of the above. *shrugs* But yep it's not quite that concrete, complicated or limited... and the language falls flat.

I've been very fluid as long as I can remember- though it wasn't until I'd been stomping around in my shoes long enough to actually have something to look back on is when the distinct fluid-ness of my gender became more apparent. You'd think as a kid feeling like a **boy... and a girl (albeit not "girly")... would be a clue but obviously I never thought consciously about it then or even felt it as any type of inconsistencies and it simply never occurred to me I couldn't be that way... and it never left me but it certainly became more "flavorful" as I got older... lol.

Anyway it's quite natural, simple and unproblematic for me in r/l- though admittedly it's caused a bit of a roller coaster ride here (BF spaces), probably needless to say but navigating in a sea of labels and identities has kind of (meaning really) kicked my ass because they're more static than I can ever ever could be in reality. But what can you do... hindsight's 20/20 unfortunately...

Metro

*Not as in physically "pretty" but as in a more queered term
**I didn't think I was a boy... but... well it's complicated don't ask

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Thanks Barb and Nat!

Barb yes it is a elusive paragraph and I'm hesitant. I've written and tossed, one I posted and deleted saying hell why did I start this thread? (and I just re-vamped this one). It really feels quite core and I'm not the greatest sharer at that level but I thought it might be of use to someone... and admittedly I've been a bit bored since my lady's out of town.

I guess I could simply say for me it's a consistent, rhythmic flexible flow of distinctly changing energy...

or...

just explain that for me I'm a predominately and outwardly a *pretty boi who occupies a semi-gq gender space but easily slides around the "mascuninity" space that surrounds that part of the gender spectrum... and then some.

I'm not at odds with my female body despite my gender spectrum essentially being masculinely orientated, it's all female originated and it seems quite natural if that makes sense. Anyway I'm quite "flat" already ... and sometimes the contrasts of my hips with that seem pretty right for all of the above. *shrugs* But yep it's not quite that concrete, complicated or limited... and the language falls flat.

I've been very fluid as long as I can remember- though it wasn't until I'd been stomping around in my shoes long enough to actually have something to look back on is when the distinct fluid-ness of my gender became more apparent. You'd think as a kid feeling like a **boy... and a girl (albeit not "girly")... would be a clue but obviously I never thought consciously about it then or even felt it as any type of inconsistencies and it simply never occurred to me I couldn't be that way... and it never left me but it certainly became more "flavorful" as I got older... lol.

Anyway it's quite natural, simple and unproblematic for me in r/l- though admittedly it's caused a bit of a roller coaster ride here (BF spaces), probably needless to say but navigating in a sea of labels and identities has kind of (meaning really) kicked my ass because they're more static than I can ever ever could be in reality. But what can you do... hindsight's 20/20 unfortunately...

Metro

*Not as in physically "pretty" but as in a more queered term
**I didn't think I was a boy... but... well it's complicated don't ask

lol you sound pretty similar to inki, cept she has larger boobs and a 50's Glam Model type figure - tall blonde hour glass. So when she's not inhabiting the genr that is totally aligned with it, she looks at her body in the mirror and says "jesus look at that. fuckin hot. But I'm not really there as me. why is this mine?" then she winds up perving over her own boobs. lol it's like a guy somehow gets in there and goes "phwar look at - hey it's mine????!?"

And it's a surprise, every time. gender memory of a gold fish. swim around the bowl once and surprise one's self every time. LOL!

She has one other butch mates who has the same fluidity and same body. When they met at my birthday they spent *hours* talking and agreeing. Was rally nice to see. Especially cause I get along very well with that butch's gf - who's a construction worker with long black pigtails and can wield a jackhammer.

I tend to not really hang all that much with people who are ID blah-blah. Most people I know are pretty fluid, have been comfortable with where they are in the gender spectrum, know how they ID but don't feel the needs to really state it over and over and they don't really subscribe to much. it's a very comfortable place to be, for me and for inki. I do want to bring her to some events in Seattle/Portland/Eugene/San Fran but I am slightly nervous about it. If people start making butch-femme jokes and stereotyping or talking about their ID and positioning everything around them, ID wise, I know she'll just get up and leave (bless the dutch directness) with no excuses.


oh shit! bugger I have a coffee to go to!!

bbl! xx

[Soft*Silver]

Metro, I think you hit on something in this statement. In my real time, when I bring up the labels we speak of here on BFP, I have had to explain the nuances of gender ID and degrees of Butch and Femme, TG and Trans to people who dont frequent these sites. They are usually overwhelmed by the labels I pull out of thin air like magic. I have to remember that not every person in our communities, are walking around defining themselves. For most, the process of coming out is all they worked through. The rest, like you say, becomes natural, simple and unproblematic for them after that. Self acceptance. Its here in a cerebral zone that we can look at ourselves and others and go WOW....look at the prism! Its when we try to name the colors beyond ROYGBIV that makes it complicated but...BUT....we are complicated in our simplicity, against a culture that makes no room for our identities.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Anyway it's quite natural, simple and unproblematic for me in r/l- though admittedly it's caused a bit of a roller coaster ride here (BF spaces), probably needless to say but navigating in a sea of labels and identities has kind of (meaning really) kicked my ass because they're more static than I can ever ever could be in reality. But what can you do... hindsight's 20/20 unfortunately...

Metro

*Not as in physically "pretty" but as in a more queered term
**I didn't think I was a boy... but... well it's complicated don't ask

HB...the picture that comes to mind is Sally on the old tv show 3rd Rock From The Sun. She was a ungendered alien inhabiting a gendered earth body...female. And she would look at her body at times and be amazed at it. LOL...it was a delightful little comedy that explored the basics of human nature. It brought gender concepts to the mainstream American pop.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

lol you sound pretty similar to inki, cept she has larger boobs and a 50's Glam Model type figure - tall blonde hour glass. So when she's not inhabiting the genr that is totally aligned with it, she looks at her body in the mirror and says "jesus look at that. fuckin hot. But I'm not really there as me. why is this mine?" then she winds up perving over her own boobs. lol it's like a guy somehow gets in there and goes "phwar look at - hey it's mine????!?"

[Jett]

Hah Barb... I always thought I'd like Inky now I know I would. I get it with the the mirror/body thing lol, except with me some days it's like, "oml... you go". There was a time I went a bit round and round with my body image, but the stuff I've let go of (rather than anything I've learned) has set it right if that makes any sense.

And right, I couldn't hang with peeps who were always peeping about ID and building everything on it either, very happily I haven't run into that toooo often... though one time I did meet a couple from g.com B-F chat room up in the cities years back who made my head spin. I tried to be polite but I did consider feigning death toward the middle of the evening... lol.
*S*
Metro

___________________

(Gah, sorry on the lag here my minds been a bit elsewhere as my gf's out of state w/ her mother who's very ill and I'm running a bit ragged here on this end with some other business on top of it.)

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

lol you sound pretty similar to inki, cept she has larger boobs and a 50's Glam Model type figure - tall blonde hour glass. So when she's not inhabiting the genr that is totally aligned with it, she looks at her body in the mirror and says "jesus look at that. fuckin hot. But I'm not really there as me. why is this mine?" then she winds up perving over her own boobs. lol it's like a guy somehow gets in there and goes "phwar look at - hey it's mine????!?"

And it's a surprise, every time. gender memory of a gold fish. swim around the bowl once and surprise one's self every time. LOL!

She has one other butch mates who has the same fluidity and same body. When they met at my birthday they spent *hours* talking and agreeing. Was rally nice to see. Especially cause I get along very well with that butch's gf - who's a construction worker with long black pigtails and can wield a jackhammer.

I tend to not really hang all that much with people who are ID blah-blah. Most people I know are pretty fluid, have been comfortable with where they are in the gender spectrum, know how they ID but don't feel the needs to really state it over and over and they don't really subscribe to much. it's a very comfortable place to be, for me and for inki. I do want to bring her to some events in Seattle/Portland/Eugene/San Fran but I am slightly nervous about it. If people start making butch-femme jokes and stereotyping or talking about their ID and positioning everything around them, ID wise, I know she'll just get up and leave (bless the dutch directness) with no excuses.


oh shit! bugger I have a coffee to go to!!

bbl! xx

This post is a breath of fresh air.... and Met, you seem to be my US breath of fresh air about all of this. No, I am not putting anyone down, but, the continual preoccupation with gender identifications here and in the real-time B-F population really makes me nuts sometimes.

Tell Inki that I for one would be getting up with her without excuses. giver her my applause! Do this myself in the SF Bay Area around this when this nonsense gets going to the point that things like a person's character, values, ways of treating others, heart & soul get side-lined and their gender identity is the be all and end all.

I know that for some on the site there just are not many opportunities to discuss gender identity where they live (and the pain that dealing with gender dysphoria can have), but I am really much more interested in a person's integrity and honor.... them as a human being. Not to mention that I personally tire of butch identity always getting framed in these terms. Butch is much more than this (and has a personal meaning for each and every one of us) . Yet, it too is not the whole of someone. I has stopped using butch for myself much of the time because of how very tired I am of so much of the conflict over it as an identity. That is how it is for me presently.

Lately, I have been introduced to more B-F persons from the UK, australia and South Africa. A small group of friends now living here. They really are just not hung-up on so much of this identity stuff. Not the butches, transgendered, FtM's, MtF's or femmes. None of them. It has been a welcome experience for me in many ways, but especially with this. Just feels freer for me. I always have space to learn from others.

[Rope]

I'm not quite sure why being interested in your gender identity as a butch makes one obsessed. Some of us took AND take a lot of shit for looking male and trying to "trick" straight people. We took a lot of shit for being who we are from the lesbian community back in the day. These things color your world. Being butch isn't something we put on for the day or when we feel like it, it's just there.

The discussion of butch and all it's stuff (tranny butch, femmy butch, queer butch, feminist butch, butch that's female id, butch that's male id, including the fluidity that some butches feel around their gender, ETC) is just the interesting mutations of a shared experienced on some level that we get to talk about.

Rope--