Lusting after lingerie...

[Candelion]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I'm torn. I actually like this lingerie but hate the whole 'come hither' and putting oneself on display for the approval of another thing.

Now, if she was wearing that and watching cartoons or doing pretty much anything but that whole VS model thing, I'd be down with it.

If I put on beautiful lingerie like that and found myself watching cartoons, I'd say my evening had gone tragically wrong.

My bedroom is a

zone

[Bèsame*]

Originally Posted by Candelion

If I put on beautiful lingerie like that and found myself watching cartoons, I'd say my evening had gone tragically wrong.

My bedroom is a

zone

Your sooo right!

I guess we all have our own reasons for seeing what we see in things

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Candelion

If I put on beautiful lingerie like that and found myself watching cartoons, I'd say my evening had gone tragically wrong.

My bedroom is a

zone

Ok Im confused so help me out here.

When I read this, I am hearing a woman only wears lingerie, strikes a provocative pose and requires validation from an outside source to feel sexy. To me, this is a very male oriented, very hetero oriented mindset.

Are you saying a woman should never or would never wear sexy lingerie just to please herself?

I dont have a male mindset or a hetero mindset, so I dont get it. Can you explain it to me and what this has to do with being pc?

[Candelion]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Ok Im confused so help me out here.

When I read this, I am hearing a woman only wears lingerie, strikes a provocative pose and requires validation from an outside source to feel sexy. To me, this is a very male oriented, very hetero oriented mindset.

Are you saying a woman should never or would never wear sexy lingerie just to please herself?

I dont have a male mindset or a hetero mindset, so I dont get it. Can you explain it to me and what this has to do with being pc?

Let me help you out with your confusion. I certainly do wear lingerie just to please myself. But, personally, I find it even more fun to wear it for someone else. To please my partner, is to please myself. It's a win/win situation for the both of us. And when I say my bedroom is a non politically correct zone, I mean I want it to be a place where we can explore our deepest, darkest fantasies without being limited by political correctness. A "come hither" look does not denigrate me as a woman in this context, rather it gets me exactly what I need, exactly what I want. My partner is happy, I'm happy. I should think this would be the goal whether you have a hetero or queer mindset.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Candelion

Let me help you out with your confusion. I certainly do wear lingerie just to please myself. But, personally, I find it even more fun to wear it for someone else. To please my partner, is to please myself. It's a win/win situation for the both of us. And when I say my bedroom is a non politically correct zone, I mean I want it to be a place where we can explore our deepest, darkest fantasies without being limited by political correctness. A "come hither" look does not denigrate me as a woman in this context, rather it gets me exactly what I need, exactly what I want. My partner is happy, I'm happy. I should think this would be the goal whether you have a hetero or queer mindset.

Ok so if you wear lingerie to also just please yourself, then you may indeed wear it while watching television or cooking or cleaning or whatever you choose simply because it is to please you, yes?

And you are talking about removing political correctness from your own bedroom for the benefit of yourself and your partner. This makes sense to me. So, the need to post provocative come hither photos of unknown women in lingerie in this thread fits in to what happens in your own bedroom in what way?

[A. Spectre]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Ok so if you wear lingerie to also just please yourself, then you may indeed wear it while watching television or cooking or cleaning or whatever you choose simply because it is to please you, yes?

And you are talking about removing political correctness from your own bedroom for the benefit of yourself and your partner. This makes sense to me. So, the need to post provocative come hither photos of unknown women in lingerie in this thread fits in to what happens in your own bedroom in what way?

Respectfully Kobi, many of us enjoy this thread without politicizing it.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by A. Spectre

Respectfully Kobi, many of us enjoy this thread without politicizing it.

Showing the vast variety of lingerie available is enjoyable.

Specifically using photos that objectify women for the sake of objectifying women under the guise of "lingerie" is not respectful to women. It is the exploitation of women as sex objects.

It is very political. Because seeing and using women as sex objects is what is behind women being raped, sold into sexual slavery, and otherwise used and abused for the pleasure of others.

It makes me sad to think people find this "enjoyable".

Carry on.

[Candelion]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Ok so if you wear lingerie to also just please yourself, then you may indeed wear it while watching television or cooking or cleaning or whatever you choose simply because it is to please you, yes?

And you are talking about removing political correctness from your own bedroom for the benefit of yourself and your partner. This makes sense to me. So, the need to post provocative come hither photos of unknown women in lingerie in this thread fits in to what happens in your own bedroom in what way?

Personally, I wouldn't wear lingerie for cooking or cleaning. It costs too damned much to have it ruined that way. There are better ways to ruin lingerie. But if it pleases a woman to wear lingerie for cooking and cleaning, the more power to her. And once again, we come back to the "come hither" look. That "come hither" look does not make me an object, it makes me a very happy participant.

Now, this is very pretty.

[JustLovelyJenn]

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Candelion

If I put on beautiful lingerie like that and found myself watching cartoons, I'd say my evening had gone tragically wrong.

Depends on what cartoon you were watching, I'd say. There are some pretty damn hot anime series around.

I get everyone's points but, for the record, this site isn't anyone's bedroom and what we post here is available for all to see. It's a public forum. We choose what images to project and thus, promote.

I leave here periodically because I do get tired of the 'I can't be sexy unless someone is looking at me' schtick but I usually find my way back because there are a lot of pretty things posted here. I guess it evens out. I am really glad that there has been significantly less panting and tongue lolling from the guys and butches lately. That didn't feel good.

For me, sexy starts with me. Not anyone else. If I'm not feeling sexy, no one else is going to make me feel sexy. That's the POV I'm coming from. Take it or leave it. Everyone's POV is valid and equally important, even if it makes others feel uncomfortable.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by JustLovelyJenn

These cracked me up. Love them!

[Femmadian]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Ok Im confused so help me out here.

When I read this, I am hearing a woman only wears lingerie, strikes a provocative pose and requires validation from an outside source to feel sexy. To me, this is a very male oriented, very hetero oriented mindset.

Are you saying a woman should never or would never wear sexy lingerie just to please herself?

I dont have a male mindset or a hetero mindset, so I dont get it. Can you explain it to me and what this has to do with being pc?

As much as I respect Kobi and her convictions (and I really, truly do), I'm going to strongly disagree with what was said here and use what was said as a sort of jumping off point for some other things while I'm at it.

Telling a queer woman that her choice to wear lingerie for her partner is aping heterosexuality, that she has a "hetero" mindset, or an internalized male gaze is pretty shitty. No one exists outside of patriarchy, nor do their choices. Consciously eschewing the use of lingerie (either for yourself or for others) is still a reaction to patriarchy (just a different one) and does not grant anyone special status as being above it all or somehow a better feminist.

It also erases sexual relationships between femme/feminine women while throwing straight women de facto under the bus and denying them any sort of sexual agency at all.

I don't need to wear lingerie when I'm scouring a pot or cleaning out the catbox. It's impractical and I reject the patriarchal notion that in order to be sexy at all, I must be sexy all the time. I don't need to feel, act, or present myself as sexual or sexually available 24/7 to be entitled to the few moments that I do and am.

I would like to see fall by the wayside this idea that it's somehow bad or problematic for a woman (especially a feminist woman) to want to please a partner sexually or derive pleasure from seeing their partner made happy or aroused by something they're doing/saying/wearing/whatever. I understand that the place that critique comes from is one where women are expected to please at the expense of themselves and at all times and without ever asking anything in return and I respect the critique and the women who have made it. The problem comes when we cannot do anything at all for the special person/people in our lives without someone else getting up in arms about how this is another thing we as women are doing wrong and if we enjoy any of the elements of conventional femininity then we are bad, silly women who have been brainwashed into accepting our own objectification and we and our misguided attempts at living our lives as feminists serve as a contrast and foil for the better, more pure, more educated feminists who reject All The Things because they have a more enlightened understanding of the One True Way of Feminism, unlike you, you silly, deluded, uneducated little thing (cue feminist headpats and condescending headshakes).

Frankly, it sounds like a lot of the same Madonna/Whore bullshit just under a different name.

I personally would love to see a feminist lingerie site with women of all shapes, sizes, colours, ages, who are differently abled and photographed in alternative poses and simulated action shots a la Betty Draper and the neighbour's pigeons from Mad Men... but barring that, I and (I trust) every woman on here does the best with what is publicly available while also recognizing some of the more problematic elements that dog these photos and where they come from.

I've tried to think of a way in which, within this reality that we live in and not in some feminist utopia from the future, where it would be 100% feminist to post photos of lingerie modelled by women that does not elicit critiques of objectification, class issues, racism, sizeism and fatphobia, agism, and heteronormativity which would please everyone and somehow stand up as some exemplary representation of doing publicly visible feminist sexuality right and... I can't.

So, given that, when is it acceptable for women to show themselves as sexual people (whether authentically or simulated) in public? Is it ever okay? What does that look like and who gets to put the feminist stamp of approval on it?

And if it's never okay because by some views patriarchy negates all agency, women are participating in their own objectification and oppression, a woman posing in a paid shoot by definition has had her consent compromised (if she's able to truly consent at all), or if women who post publicly their own conventionally sexy selfies online for public approval are just doing so for the approval of some outside source and as such, viewed as somehow weaker or less-than feminists... then are women ever allowed to be fully human if they're not allowed to be fully sexual?

You know, I spent a hell of a lot of time denying my own sexuality and sexual agency in the name of rejecting self-objectification and Being A Good Feminist and I'm finally getting to the place where I'm able to see myself as an attractive person entitled to wear these things and pose in these poses without looking stupid or being an object of fun. I'm not about to let paternalism under the guise of feminist critique take that away again. It's taken a long while for me to even come close to feeling desirable in my own body and yes, it does help when I'm able to elicit a certain response from my partner in that way, and if lingerie helps, then lingerie helps. So what? My emotional landscape and my self-concept are not formed and do not exist within a vacuum and if outside validation and approval helps them along, then damn it, so be it. Who cares and who's to judge me or any woman for that? I engage in these behaviours and wear these clothes and do these things with my partner because I'm human and my experiences are more complex and real than some goddamn academic theory.

I respect and appreciate how Gemme's points were framed in a very personal-to-her way and how she explained how it made her feel as a feminine woman and the inner conflicts she was dealing with. I share them much of the time and I think I understand where she's coming from. It's a conversation worth hashing out, especially one specific to femmes. The points Kobi made, I'm sorry, but they were made personal by way of individualized jabs and innuendos by implying that Candelion had a hetero mindset and that the people participating in this thread were bad feminists who made her "sad" because they weren't doing their feminism in the way she would. I don't see how insulting people and then making a grand exit from the thread ("carry on") contributes to the conversation. At the end of the day, it seems that the focus is on femmes no matter what, whether it's trying to separate a heteronormative and commodified male gaze from authentic expressions of female sexuality and femininity, struggling with not internalizing the objectifying messages which can sometimes accompany these photos, wilting under the pressure to be "greater-than" (while all the while ending up feeling "less-than"), or having to justify to someone else why it is they do what they do and just what kind of feminist exactly they think they're trying to be...? Meanwhile, when it comes to personal behaviour here, the butches seem to get off relatively scot-free. Funny, that...

For me, when I post something to this thread (and I often take breaks from it too for the same reasons that Gemme stated), it's because I've come across a great collection of lingerie photos which I'd like to share with the other femmes here. It's a "hey, I saw this and I thought you might like it. Isn't it great?" form of femme-bonding. It's a "hmmm, I never thought to pair pearls like this with animal print lingerie but it works here" or "wow, maybe her body looks like mine/yours/ours and she can really rock that sexy garter belt" or just "I've had a long day and maybe you have too so here are some pretty, fluffy photos of some really nice pieces of lingerie (which are evocative of more pleasant moments) for you to decompress with." It's a way to share an appreciation of clothes and femmeness and reclaiming (and in some instances, claiming for the first time) one of the more conventional aspects of femininity for our own pleasure (by and for those who want it). And for me, this thread has little to do with what does or doesn't go on in my bedroom. If you want to appreciate or scowl at it privately, then you're certainly free to do so, but having someone who doesn't identify as femme in any way or adorn themselves with the accoutrements posted herein come in to post and either leer or criticize the wearing of it and tell women that they're doing it wrong, it leaves a really bitter taste in my mouth.

Understanding is not a prerequisite for respect.

[CherylNYC]

I wish I had written Femmadian's post. It's pitch perfect. That said, I agree that the sheer volume of ultra-thin women puckering and arching for the camera in this thread can be off-putting for me even though I have a similar body type to some of those models. It's not that there's anything specifically wrong with any one of those photos. It's that they're relentless in their monomaniacal depiction of the one way in which a woman supposedly can be sexy.

What I miss is the way the earliest posts on this thread felt to me. Women who were imagining how powerfully sexy they would feel in a particular piece of lingerie posted a picture of the lingerie. Sans model. Just the clothing on a hanger or laying on a plain piece of photo paper. It made me feel like I was participating in a secret femme party where we were sharing pictorials that told a story about our personal sexual power. That imagery left room for our own narrative. There's not an inch of space left for that when the focus of every post is about the body of the model, not about the endless possibilities of our own personal sexual power.

As for the evils of objectification- whooo-ah! That's a sticky wicket. I certainly do dress up in lingerie that makes me feel sexually powerful. I also absolutely desire that my partner, (should I ever find one again), would think I'm super sexy, and to objectify me for that reason. Yes, I please myself by wearing sexy lingerie, but it's deeply pleasing to me to know that I've pleased her as much, if not more. BUT... general objectification by any and all, including straight dudes? Goddess please save me from that nightmare! I spent the first 50 years of my life fighting that shit off. Thankfully, I've finally aged out of much of it, but I still reflexively duck and cover. It's easy to eschew any and all objectification when the overwhelming majority of it emanates dangerously from entitled men, but my brand of feminism means that I get to choose what moves me. I WANT to be objectified by my butch female partner. If anyone has a problem with that they should stop peeping through the keyhole into my bedroom.

Context is really important. The context for these lingerie photos is supposedly femmes in the femme zone posting for ourselves and each other. In theory there wouldn't be very much objectification going on between us, and one would hope that there wouldn't be a shred of judgement aimed at each other for our choices. That's why it felt particularly icky when a few butches started publicly licking their chops at us here. And also strange for a butch to scold us for our lack of feminism when it comes to choosing when or why we would wear sexy, and presumably expensive, lingerie that may be terribly impractical to wear while changing the cat litter, for instance. Those wispy little things have a very short life. You can trust me on this- We're capable of making practical decisions about when and where to spend the few useful hours during which those sexy little things look and feel beautiful.

[Medusa]

Hey folks-

We've gotten a couple of reports for this thread and I want to come in and add some guidance here.

First, Femmadian, thank you for so eloquently addressing what can become super problematic in threads such as these (and by this I mean threads where desire, sexiness, and Feminism (Femme-inism?!) intersect in ways that sometimes make folks uncomfortable or brings out political policing.

Second, this is a thread in the Femme zone started by a Femme discussing lingerie worn by women-identified folks.
*Any* critique from non-Femme-identified people about how Femmes aren't doing the lingerie thing, the sexual thing, the bedroom thing, or any other thing correctly (and extrapolate that with looks of desire, arched backs, or the myriad other ways we might "do" sexuality) will be unwelcome and out of place in this thread.


It is a really shitty feeling to be finger-waggled by *anyone* for the way I as a Femme do my sexuality. I am sure that the Femmes in this thread would also appreciate a little respect for their space and while they do not at all need me to speak for them I am issuing a reminder to all non-Femme-identified people coming to this thread that your participation in this thread needs to be respectful and consensual or you need to stay the hell out.

Thanks to everyone for their cooperation,
Angie

[Gemme]

This.

For all things, this.

Originally Posted by Femmadian

Understanding is not a prerequisite for respect.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Context is really important. The context for these lingerie photos is supposedly femmes in the femme zone posting for ourselves and each other. In theory there wouldn't be very much objectification going on between us, and one would hope that there wouldn't be a shred of judgement aimed at each other for our choices. That's why it felt particularly icky when a few butches started publicly licking their chops at us here. And also strange for a butch to scold us for our lack of feminism when it comes to choosing when or why we would wear sexy, and presumably expensive, lingerie that may be terribly impractical to wear while changing the cat litter, for instance. Those wispy little things have a very short life. You can trust me on this- We're capable of making practical decisions about when and where to spend the few useful hours during which those sexy little things look and feel beautiful.

I wanted to bold your verbiage above Cheryl, for me it felt icky as well and "slut shamey" thank you all who came in and put the light on the problem that arises a lot when it comes to how Femme's express their sexuality and sexual empowerment. The misogyny tends to drip into our personal canvas of how we choose to present and entice. It's good to see that we (Femmes) will not cater to a non-femme peoples and their mysogyny/sexism because frankly it has no room in our LGBTQI spaces.... It feels good to see sisters hold strong it really really does..

[tantalizingfemme]

[Martina]

[Daniela]

I love love love this:



and this:

[Bèsame*]

Something warm..