Gay Marriage until...a break up. Why Gays need to walk the walk.

[Corkey]

I wish we did live in a state that recognized our marriage, but it isn't this one. We aren't able to even have domestic partnerships or civil unions. We still have our documents to help protect us at hospitals, but that doesn't give us any protections as far as banking or federal rights others have. We can't combine our incomes into one joint account because of my SSDI. That however doesn't prevent us from maintaining our household as one unit. If I should die, Ami still wouldn't be able to get surviving spousal payments from Soc Sec. We have a long fight ahead of us, one I doubt I'll see the fruition of in my lifetime.

[SuperFemme]

NOM is making a tour of hate. Today they were in Madison Wisconsin.
NOM supports = 54 (one sign read that the solution to gay marriage was..and it showed a picture of two nooses).
Equality Protesters = 466

Here is a video of the protesters on the Equality side.
It makes me so proud of how hard we work, and how much our community is coming together. Maybe this post is off topic, I don't know.

[Soon]

We're keeping track of that messed up NOM bus and plan on joining the protesters when they reach Tampa in mid-August.

I suggest that everyone goes to prop8trialtracker.com to see when their bus of hate rolls into your town, so you can get out there and REPRESENT for equality!

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

We're keeping track of that messed up NOM bus and plan on joining the protesters when they reach Tampa in mid-August.

I suggest that everyone goes to prop8trialtracker.com to see when their bus of hate rolls into your town, so you can get out there and REPRESENT for equality!

Yay for this post.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Yay for this post.

thanks

one more thing: to get the list of cities that the tour of hate are going to next, go to the prop8trialtracker site then click on left tab for nomtourtracker


or just click on this: haha!
http://prop8trialtracker.com/category/nom-tour-tracker/


i LOVE how equality represented in far greater numbers than them and would like to keep seeing that this summer!

[imperfect_cupcake]

sorry I'm a bit confused. Of course if you get married you have to go through the same legal ritual of divorce if you end it. It's a legal contract involving notice to the gov't about your status. If that should change, you have to declare it. like if you job changes. or you move and you still wish to vote.

So I'm kinda lost. it's all exactly the same. You have to undo what was done. after falling out. which makes things hellish.

I can't imagine the kind of hoop jumping inki and I have been doing for a year through four different countries to get it *undone* but with extremely sore feelings and deep feelings of hurt and rejection at the same time, rather than a sense of joy and certainty. dear god that sounds like hell on earth to me.

I hope, if it ever happens I can be as civil as my parents were. They screwed up. But they didn't fight over the kids, they never fought in front of us, they shared one lawyer between them to save costs.

and there was a *lot* of serious wounding between the two of them. Both felt completely betrayed, ignored, disliked and belittled.

But they got over it and are good friends now.

I think that shows a different kind of commitment, especially as they did it initially (trying to get along through a divorce) because of the kids. My hat off to them.

[Soon]

According to the Human Rights Campaign's VP Fred Sainz, the real reason for NOM's national Hate Tour is to draw out harassing counter-protesters so that those incidents can be using in court to thwart donor disclosure laws. Because SEE, we really DO get attacked by violent homofascists!

Via press release from the HRC:

"The bus tour is a total sham, plain and simple," said Fred Sainz, HRC's vice president of communications. "NOM's highly-touted bus tour is less about so-called 'traditional marriage' and more about creating an elaborate and cynical stunt. NOM rolled out a summer of nationwide events in order to draw lawful protesters, all so that NOM and its allies can pepper ongoing lawsuits challenging public disclosure laws with made-up stories of harassment. This unprecedented victimization crusade is the lowest denominator of political activism, and it won't fly."

In events in seven states, NOM has routinely played to crowds reportedly as small as two dozen people including NOM staff members. The organization's public statements on the bus tour have barely mentioned the content of the programs or the substance of its anti-LGBT message, instead focusing attention on much larger counter-protests that NOM has attacked as intimidation and harassment. NOM issued a press release last Friday saying that LGBT supporters have "approached and threatened children," engaged in "bullying tactics" and committed acts of harassment. However, NOM's uncorroborated claims belie legitimate local media reports demonstrating that pro-equality supporters, which have vastly outnumbered NOM's faithful, have been civil. NOM has yet to document any illegal activity or actual harassment, despite the presence of law enforcement at all the events.

NOM's efforts to trump up false claims of harassment are part of a radical nationwide plan to evade long-established public disclosure laws and to hide their political activities from legitimate scrutiny and accountability. In doing so, NOM has falsely alleged that their donors have been harassed and intimidated across the country to justify why it shouldn't have to play by the same rules as everyone else. These tactics have prompted a state ethics investigation in Maine and recent court defeats across the country.


I think Fred Sainz has nailed it.

[Hack]

I'm not a fan of marriage for myself, personally. I have no problem with what others want to do for themselves, of course. I think I hold myself to a higher standard because if I were to ever marry, it would be a one-time only, limited offer kind of thing. Call me old-fashioned in that Catholic-married-for-life kind of way. There's been exactly one woman who even stirred those thoughts in my little pointy head. And I think a big part of me considers that those feelings have come and now have gone. And probably won't be back. And I'm ok with that.

And, honestly, I find it hard to generate sympathy for yet another celebrity marriage -- gay, straight or otherwise -- that has fallen apart. Money, fame, celebrity does funny things to people that we can only pretend to understand.

Jake

[Puplove]

I agree that we should have the same responsibilities of a legally binding contract if we have the same rights, and public perception that someone fighting for gay marriage can turn around and say "never mind, that wasn't real" hurts us all. (That may not be the real situation with M.E., but it's a good thinking point.)

Even in a painful breakup, I believe that decent people won't manipulate loopholes and the non-legal situation to get out of doing what's right in divvying up possessions, child custody, etc. (although it can take time to get past the initial hurt and knee jerk anger to get to that point). Non-decent people will find a way to screw over the person they had promised to love and cherish, even if they have to pay more to do it legally.

I feel, straight or queer: if you don't want to fully commit and be willing to embrace ALL responsibilities, then don't call it a marriage (whether or not there's legal paper involved). Then, you leave yourself an out and can easily walk away when it's over.

Here is where I think the higher standard idea comes in:
The contrast between fighting to have queer relationships recognized as "just as real" as heterosexual marriages, then seeing couples walk away from each other when things get tough, because...well, there's no legally binding document requiring a negotiated contract dissolution. Straight people do it too - all the time. But, no one has to work to validate straight relationships, so they can crap all over their privileges without affecting an entire community.

It sucks, but it's there. As SF said, this is where it comes in that gays need to walk the walk.

Point to ponder: When straight people run into an old friend they haven't seen for a couple years and they catch up on mutual friends, it's rare that you hear them ask about married couples "Are John and Phyllis still together? Wow, that's great they are!!"

When queers run into old friends and they catch up, the standard questions are "Are Adam and Steve still together?" and it's a surprise when they are. How many times have you and your friends asked "are they still together" when catching up on long-term queer couple friends. Who even realizes the root of that question?

Many factors way too big to talk about (history, culture, bias, etc etc etc) have taught us to believe that long-term queer relationships are the exception, not the norm. Although more than 50% of straight marriages end in divorce, we - the "all of society" we - do not believe that long-term straight relationships are the exception.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Rook

hmm...
Someone said it best {and I think he's straight, not sure, I gotta find his name, damnit...}
"So they want the right to be Just as miserable as the rest of us? Go for it..When you're tired of it, fight for the right to endure the Endless Bliss of Divorce, custody and alimony"


Yes, we're held to a Higher Standard due to the fact we're {generally speaking} raising a Loud cry for Equal Marital rights...
But, Melissa's certainly not the first one to pull this...
I'll gladly refresh your memories
Let's discuss Martina Navratilova, who is , btw, enduring yet another Palimony issue..
No, she didnt "marry" per se, but she sure as hell hasn't learned her lesson...
Get a pre-nup !!
Anne Heche and Ellen DeGeneres aren't quite on the map, to my knowledge those 2 didnt marry..
Ellen did marry Portia though, and so far{knock on wood} they're blissfully happy....

As for Melissa trying to nullify stuff...
Plenty folks ask for Annulments, particularly Catholics..
Why can't she?
Higher Standards?
Trying to avoid Tammy's legal right to certain compensations for enduring lord knows what in the course of their Relationship?
The ones suffering, I'm pretty sure, besides Tammy, are the kids...
Bad enuff they seen Mum split once before, now they gotta watch Mums own community debate/dissect her separation to the last point...

In California, if you married for 10 years +, your Ex is entitled to a lot of stuff, unless stipulated prior to "I Do", which is why , I'm guessing, Tom Cruise kicked Nicole Kidman to the curb right before their 10th....

I could be wrong...

Even though it can be a very sensitive subject, pre-nups/break-up agreements should be part of every marriage. Negotiated in a fair manner by each person. I don't see a lot of discussion about this within same-sex relationships and marriages... or even with most straight unions with just regular people. Yet, we all know that break-ups/divorce is a possibility. So much emotional stress can be saved with just doing this! I know, it isn't very romantic, but it is practical. And can actually be a good way to develop communication skills together.. BEFORE... a major stressor hits. this needs to be done right along with powers of attorney and end of life directives.

Hell, make it romantic, celebrate the completion of all of these legal things by going on a weekend mini-vacation or something. Frame it all in the context of genuinely caring for one another in a fair and equitable manner. If you have children, there are many legalities to deal with which are much the same as in het marriages.

I have no idea if Etheridge did a pre-nup and I hope she and her spouse did (I don't know a thing about either of them, really.. like some of Etheridge's music and knew she battled cancer). Would really not make much to me if they didn't simply due to Etheridge’s celebrity and she probably has some wealth. And what were the agreements about this in terms of her spouse? California divorce law will be utilized for a settlement. Hopefully, a pre-nup will be in place to be the foundation of the settlement and how they are going to share and continue to care for their kids.`

UGH.. Thinking about we can always count on money/assets to be the edge of the knife in death and divorce! And one of the most difficult things for couples to agree about within or outside of marriage.

Oh, yeah, I remember Martina’s palimony case! And there have been others, so it isn’t as if no precedent has been set, especially in California. Absolutely, the time one is married is part of California divorce law and it is a community property state along with having no fault divorce.
I really do hope they both keep the drama out of all of this. Of course, the media loves stuff like this.

Things like one's honor and character really come into focus at times like these.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Puplove

I agree that we should have the same responsibilities of a legally binding contract if we have the same rights, and public perception that someone fighting for gay marriage can turn around and say "never mind, that wasn't real" hurts us all. (That may not be the real situation with M.E., but it's a good thinking point.)

Even in a painful breakup, I believe that decent people won't manipulate loopholes and the non-legal situation to get out of doing what's right in divvying up possessions, child custody, etc. (although it can take time to get past the initial hurt and knee jerk anger to get to that point). Non-decent people will find a way to screw over the person they had promised to love and cherish, even if they have to pay more to do it legally.

I feel, straight or queer: if you don't want to fully commit and be willing to embrace ALL responsibilities, then don't call it a marriage (whether or not there's legal paper involved). Then, you leave yourself an out and can easily walk away when it's over.

Here is where I think the higher standard idea comes in:
The contrast between fighting to have queer relationships recognized as "just as real" as heterosexual marriages, then seeing couples walk away from each other when things get tough, because...well, there's no legally binding document requiring a negotiated contract dissolution. Straight people do it too - all the time. But, no one has to work to validate straight relationships, so they can crap all over their privileges without affecting an entire community.

It sucks, but it's there. As SF said, this is where it comes in that gays need to walk the walk.

Point to ponder: When straight people run into an old friend they haven't seen for a couple years and they catch up on mutual friends, it's rare that you hear them ask about married couples "Are John and Phyllis still together? Wow, that's great they are!!"

When queers run into old friends and they catch up, the standard questions are "Are Adam and Steve still together?" and it's a surprise when they are. How many times have you and your friends asked "are they still together" when catching up on long-term queer couple friends. Who even realizes the root of that question?

Many factors way too big to talk about (history, culture, bias, etc etc etc) have taught us to believe that long-term queer relationships are the exception, not the norm. Although more than 50% of straight marriages end in divorce, we - the "all of society" we - do not believe that long-term straight relationships are the exception.

Thank you for so eloquently saying what I've been trying to say.

You bring up a fascinating point with the "is so-n-so still together" question. I remember clear as day being at a function last year and someone came up to say hello that I hadn't seen in a while. They asked if I was still seeing Cal and I swear to God they almost spit their drink out when I said yes. It was weird to me, that the follow up comment was something along the lines of how lucky I was, and how so many of "us" don't stay together.

You're absolutely right about there being tons of reasons for that, and one of those reasons is that a lot of people think we are just perverts, and that being gay is solely about sex.

That is why it is so important that we are visible as your everyday average folks next door...not a blurb on the five o'clock news from a pride parade.

[Puplove]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Thank you for so eloquently saying what I've been trying to say.

You bring up a fascinating point with the "is so-n-so still together" question. I remember clear as day being at a function last year and someone came up to say hello that I hadn't seen in a while. They asked if I was still seeing Cal and I swear to God they almost spit their drink out when I said yes. It was weird to me, that the follow up comment was something along the lines of how lucky I was, and how so many of "us" don't stay together.

You're absolutely right about there being tons of reasons for that, and one of those reasons is that a lot of people think we are just perverts, and that being gay is solely about sex.

That is why it is so important that we are visible as your everyday average folks next door...not a blurb on the five o'clock news from a pride parade.

You said it! And in a super way. Thanks for starting thoughtful discussion on a really important topic.

[MsTinkerbelly]

So many here have said it better than I can...but I will put in my 2 cents.

I (like Superfemme and Plato) was married during California's Summer of love. I too rejoice in my marriage, and am saddened for our friends who cannot enjoy the same right.

I was married for 12 years to my daughter's Father, and I struggled with ending our marriage because I feel that marriage is for life. I did not marry my Kasey until 6 years after we began our relationship, because I was not ready to ever make that kind of promise again, and I especially thought my Kasey was not my forever person.

Through my struggles in finding myself, my Kasey was there. She is my rock, my heart, and my home. Only when I found me, was I able to see the person who felt the same way I did about forever. For better or worse, for richer or poorer....words worth fighting for everyone to have.

Divorce although not an option for us, should be handled with the same maturity and promise that you made to love and honor that person. Life happens, love happens, and yes sometimes divorce happens. Straight or Gay, there is no difference to the responcibilties we have taken on, and we should honor even the end with dignity.

[Soft*Silver]

I agree with At Last Home, there should be a prenuptual with every marraige. I kid with whoever I date seriously, that I am building a "contract" that will need to be initialized, notarized and signed before I move in or we commit further. I might be kidding, but I also tell them I am serious...that we need to work out factors before we take a larger step. Here is a huge factor: I have one daughter who is 26. If she EVER needs to move in with me/us, she can. Period. Even if it means with husband and kids. PERIOD. Some people might not like that. So if they dont like it, I dont want to wait until this becomes important, to find out we are at odds with one another.

And some folks might say there are too many factors to consider. Not so. Factor: My kid comes first and I am always there for her...period. Ex: if she ever needs to stay with me, she can. Period.

And some say this takes the romance out of marraige. Jeez...so does divorce! I would rather know before hand that there are "deal breakers" before I commit. And you can gloss up the "before" marriage with all the romance you want. Bottom line is, if you are going to commit forever, the candles are gonna burn down eventually and you better be sure you can hold onto that person when the lights go out...

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

So many here have said it better than I can...but I will put in my 2 cents.

I (like Superfemme and Plato) was married during California's Summer of love. I too rejoice in my marriage, and am saddened for our friends who cannot enjoy the same right.

I was married for 12 years to my daughter's Father, and I struggled with ending our marriage because I feel that marriage is for life. I did not marry my Kasey until 6 years after we began our relationship, because I was not ready to ever make that kind of promise again, and I especially thought my Kasey was not my forever person.

Through my struggles in finding myself, my Kasey was there. She is my rock, my heart, and my home. Only when I found me, was I able to see the person who felt the same way I did about forever. For better or worse, for richer or poorer....words worth fighting for everyone to have.

Divorce although not an option for us, should be handled with the same maturity and promise that you made to love and honor that person. Life happens, love happens, and yes sometimes divorce happens. Straight or Gay, there is no difference to the responcibilties we have taken on, and we should honor even the end with dignity.

Amen to that!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

sorry I'm a bit confused. Of course if you get married you have to go through the same legal ritual of divorce if you end it. It's a legal contract involving notice to the gov't about your status. If that should change, you have to declare it. like if you job changes. or you move and you still wish to vote.

So I'm kinda lost. it's all exactly the same. You have to undo what was done. after falling out. which makes things hellish.

I can't imagine the kind of hoop jumping inki and I have been doing for a year through four different countries to get it *undone* but with extremely sore feelings and deep feelings of hurt and rejection at the same time, rather than a sense of joy and certainty. dear god that sounds like hell on earth to me.

I hope, if it ever happens I can be as civil as my parents were. They screwed up. But they didn't fight over the kids, they never fought in front of us, they shared one lawyer between them to save costs.

I so like hearing this! when I did work as a family therapist with divorcing couples, what transpired betwen the partners not only in front of the kids, but in manipulating the kids was the most difficult challenge in the work. many people do not go there, but so often, this is the exception. Kudos to your parents! also, it is obvious that that modeling would be an asset for you if you did find yoursekves in a dissolution.
and there was a *lot* of serious wounding between the two of them. Both felt completely betrayed, ignored, disliked and belittled.

But they got over it and are good friends now.

Yup, can happen!

I think that shows a different kind of commitment, especially as they did it initially (trying to get along through a divorce) because of the kids. My hat off to them.

Mine, too!

I have been wondering how same-sex divorces would play out. One problem I am having is with this one being a celebrity oriented one in which privacy is just not going to happen. Guess, I want to see how just we commoners handle it. We don't really have the experience of a legally sanctioned marriage, let alone divorce. I see some key differences just due to our lack of having this right which has influenced our relationship history.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Mine, too!

I have been wondering how same-sex divorces would play out. One problem I am having is with this one being a celebrity oriented one in which privacy is just not going to happen. Guess, I want to see how just we commoners handle it. We don't really have the experience of a legally sanctioned marriage, let alone divorce. I see some key differences just due to our lack of having this right which has influenced our relationship history.

I am sure you there are many who have legal marriages and divorces in the States that allow them.

In Canada, all marriages and divorces are handled in the exact same way as any other. There are absolutely no differences in the execution of either the making of a legal commitment or the dissolving of it over here. One (maybe?) difference we do have is that our marriage licenses do not indicate gender for either spouse.

Or maybe you are just asking about how people handle the divorce? As with any, painfully I presume and, for some, legal drama.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

The line I bolded is what I want to talk about.

I don't know the particulars of the singers break up, nor do I want to. I was just using it as an example - of a visible queer that has advocated for Gay Marriage, and is not ending hers like everyone else who has been afforded that basic civil right.

Perhaps Melissa Etheridge was a bad example? I just read something about it and it made me start thinking, hence the subject in this thread.

I am not saying Ethridge is a bad example, but the issue is in court and she is paying all her exe's bills and wants to share custody according to court documents.

I think the media as usually is spinning it in a bad way and people were commenting on her character. Let's know what really is going on before throwing some one under the proverbial bus.

I mean, if a straight woman said her/his celebrity husband/wife left her/him with $4.00 to her name would we automatically believe her?

But yes, Gay marriages should be dissolved the same way any marriage is, and big props to people who manage to break up or divorce with zero ugliness!

[Soon]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

According to the Human Rights Campaign's VP Fred Sainz, the real reason for NOM's national Hate Tour is to draw out harassing counter-protesters so that those incidents can be using in court to thwart donor disclosure laws. Because SEE, we really DO get attacked by violent homofascists!

Via press release from the HRC:

"The bus tour is a total sham, plain and simple," said Fred Sainz, HRC's vice president of communications. "NOM's highly-touted bus tour is less about so-called 'traditional marriage' and more about creating an elaborate and cynical stunt. NOM rolled out a summer of nationwide events in order to draw lawful protesters, all so that NOM and its allies can pepper ongoing lawsuits challenging public disclosure laws with made-up stories of harassment. This unprecedented victimization crusade is the lowest denominator of political activism, and it won't fly."

In events in seven states, NOM has routinely played to crowds reportedly as small as two dozen people including NOM staff members. The organization's public statements on the bus tour have barely mentioned the content of the programs or the substance of its anti-LGBT message, instead focusing attention on much larger counter-protests that NOM has attacked as intimidation and harassment. NOM issued a press release last Friday saying that LGBT supporters have "approached and threatened children," engaged in "bullying tactics" and committed acts of harassment. However, NOM's uncorroborated claims belie legitimate local media reports demonstrating that pro-equality supporters, which have vastly outnumbered NOM's faithful, have been civil. NOM has yet to document any illegal activity or actual harassment, despite the presence of law enforcement at all the events.

NOM's efforts to trump up false claims of harassment are part of a radical nationwide plan to evade long-established public disclosure laws and to hide their political activities from legitimate scrutiny and accountability. In doing so, NOM has falsely alleged that their donors have been harassed and intimidated across the country to justify why it shouldn't have to play by the same rules as everyone else. These tactics have prompted a state ethics investigation in Maine and recent court defeats across the country.


I think Fred Sainz has nailed it.

[SuperFemme]

I think the HRC has a very good point. Dear God that is gross.