Ask a trans person!

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Jet

I'm typing from my blackberry
Until I get my computer back.

Question...

I am a contract designer looking to go full time. Since
I.M starting T now I want apply at And be accepted at companies with diversity policies. I'm thinking of submitting

My resume
Portfolio
Summary of experience
And....
A letter to HR addressing my transition under the company
Diversity policy.

Should I include the letter at the. onset of applying?

What bathroom do I use?

Etc.

First off......and this is just *me*......I wouldn't put myself under the stress of applying for a new job at the same time I'm beginning my medical transition.......unless, of course, you absolutely have no choice.

Secondly, I think you need to go about the process in the way that feels best and most right *to you*. Personally, I would not fool with HR until I had to......certainly not prior to even securing an interview.

I think there are a number of correct ways to go about this; you have to find the way that feels most right for you.

And I'd use the men's room. If you are introducing yourself as Parker and presenting yourself as the man you are, then the men's room is the only option.

[Jet]

I would to talk with HR people
And legal.

If I would get hired tomorrow I wouldn't pass. They would see the transitiopn process. This is the reason I feel In forming them at the onset is important. I met an FTM from turner broadcast who is in transit. HR there issued a. Memo to fellow workers about his transition and that they were to be respectful and supportive.

[Blade]

Originally Posted by Jet

I would to talk with HR people
And legal.

If I would get hired tomorrow I wouldn't pass. They would see the transitiopn process. This is the reason I feel In forming them at the onset is important. I met an FTM from turner broadcast who is in transit. HR there issued a. Memo to fellow workers about his transition and that they were to be respectful and supportive.

That's cool, that should be a federal law

[The Oopster]

Originally Posted by Jet

I disagree with responses about how to tackle jobs while
Trnsitioing.

Thnks for your input.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Jet,

Can I ask where you live? What state?

Employment is the toughest issue for transfolks. The gender identity clause in many places is merely lip service.

I seriously would NOT come out as trans at an interview. I've done it, and I won't do it again.

If you come out at an interview, and you don't get hired, there's nothing you can do about it.

If you ensure you have the job first, and they fire you when you come out, you will be able to cover your ass better.

Since deciding to transition, I have been an many job interviews (after losing my job the day after coming out as trans).

Before I applied anywhere, though, I would look into what my city, county, and state have to say about gender identity, so I know what companies are 'supposed to' abide by.


Dylan

Originally Posted by Thinker

First off......and this is just *me*......I wouldn't put myself under the stress of applying for a new job at the same time I'm beginning my medical transition.......unless, of course, you absolutely have no choice.

Secondly, I think you need to go about the process in the way that feels best and most right *to you*. Personally, I would not fool with HR until I had to......certainly not prior to even securing an interview.

I think there are a number of correct ways to go about this; you have to find the way that feels most right for you.

And I'd use the men's room. If you are introducing yourself as Parker and presenting yourself as the man you are, then the men's room is the only option.

I agree with thinker and Dylan that there are lots of things that go into it, and ultimately it is what you are comfortable with.

I know for me, I am speaking from my experience not from what I "think." My strategy has changed over time.

The job I currently have I've never really addressed the issue. I'm a courrier and seldom in the office. At first they called me she and over the past year without me even saying he or anything they call me he and the one that has the most troubles I'll catch him correcting himself. Since I'm not in the office, it just wasn't worth investing energy into it. If they called me she to a customer the customer just looked at them crazy. I deliver to a lot of the studio lots and other businesses including government agencies where I have to present my government id which has my birth name and gender on it. Despite that I am still 99.99% of the time he'd. If someone says something about the name I just make a joke about it. My work ID has my chosen name and actually more often that is commented on since it's original and my first name is the first part of my last name. Again I just make a joke about it. That my parents wanted to keep things simple. If I feel the there is a vested relationship then i may address the issue but on the most part the job I currently have I'm lucky if I seem the same people twice in one week for more then a couple minutes so it's just not worth making a big deal. I've learned that by making a big deal about it and it's just not worth it, for someone I don't know that i may not see again.

The job I had before this which I really was in the beginning of transition and did a lot of my transition during it. I applied under my chosen name didn't bring up the issue but one of my bosses was intuitive and sensitive to the issue and in the first week approached me and how I wanted to be addressed. Made sure that all the employess called me he. Again it was a service job and some of the customers still perceived me as she. There were a few that if appropriate I would bring it up in passing conversation but again it just wasn't worth it.

More recently I've been applying for an old company i use to work for and the more comfortable interviews have been the ones where I've addressed it at the end. Still haven't gotten a job with them and in my head it's hard not to think that it's partly because of being trans, they just may not want to deal with possible issues that could arise, but there is no way of knowing that, it honestly could be something else.

If i end up looking for jobs with other companies I won't address it til it needs to be and only if it needs to be.

Again I've gotten to this point by trial and errror and what works best for me. One thing that helped me was by sending out different types of coverletters and resumes to different perspective employers and going with whatever in the end got the best results.

I have work lapses in my employment history also, because of physical disability, and in that i wanted to be honest about it at first also, but have found that anything like that is best to avoid until i get the interview and am in the office where I'm able to make a legitimate impression versus a preceived impression.

Again ultimately you have to deal with it in your own way and chances are it is a process that will develope through your own trial and error.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by The Oopster

I know for me, I am speaking from my experience not from what I "think."

My strategy has changed over time.

Again I've gotten to this point by trial and errror and what works best for me.

Yeah, my approach has changed greatly over time. I finally ended up starting my own business

I've learned (again, in my own experience) that many 'diversity' policies (including Austin's city 'diversity' policy) are merely lip service to make the company look good. ALL of the interviewers I've had since researching companies' diversity policies have been wonderful about gay issues, but completely ignorant and fearful of trans issues.

I also agree with Thinker that ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do, and I MORE than agree that I (personally) wouldn't interview for jobs during transition unless I absolutely had to.

My thoughts on this today are COMPLETELY, 100% different than they were years ago


Dylan

[TenderKnight]

I guess I was pretty lucky to get a job at where I work now.. At the interview, I told them my prefered pronouns, the name I would be changing to legally, and that I would be starting hormones.. I am lucky to live and work in a very diverse and queer friendly area with managers that may not *get* it, but have been exposed to trans people and were cool with taking me for who I was and on my work history and not my gender..

Not everyone is that lucky or CAN be that open with an employer. If I were still living in the South, I doubt very much if I could have gotten the job I have now and transitioned while working.. Thankfully, I was and am that lucky.. The customers have seen me transition and have asked questions, some are just confused and think they pegged me as female by mistake. I get to educate others on transgender issues and I have tried to invite a more open and welcoming attitude to those along the gender spectrum..

This is just my experience, like I said, I kinda lucked out in some ways. I would never suggest that anyone put themselves in danger by transtioning on the job, but it can work out. Just my .2 on the subject

-Tony

[The Oopster]

One thing you can do is practice.

Apply for jobs that you are qualified for but not necessarily interested in and try out different approaches to find out what is comfortable for you. Even with that said I may go into an interview with one intention and after in there for a few minutes totally change my game plan.

If i'm really interested in one particular company, unless there is a immediate urgency like the job posting is going to be closed tomorrow I won't apply for it first, i'll warm up with other options. If I can get an interview with someone else first bonus, practice time.

I use to especially do this with temp agencies. A lot of the tests they have are the same. I'd go to the temp agencies I was least interested in first take the tests a few times then go to the ones I was really interested in and score 100's. Sometimes fate would throw me a surprise and the one i wasn't interested in would be the one that ended up being the gold mine

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Jet

I met an FTM from turner broadcast who is in transit. HR there issued a. Memo to fellow workers about his transition and that they were to be respectful and supportive.

Sure. And I would hope that would be the case. BUT.

That is very different from *applying* for jobs......in the "cold calling" sense. My position about leaving HR out of it has to do with applying.....not dealing with someone who already has a job.

Sorry for any confusion there...

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by The Oopster

One thing you can do is practice.

Apply for jobs that you are qualified for but not necessarily interested in and try out different approaches to find out what is comfortable for you. Even with that said I may go into an interview with one intention and after in there for a few minutes totally change my game plan.

Outstanding advice.

[Jet]

I wouldn't come out at an interview.

[The Oopster]

Originally Posted by Jet

I'm typing from my blackberry
Until I get my computer back.

Question...

I am a contract designer looking to go full time. Since
I.M starting T now I want apply at And be accepted at companies with diversity policies. I'm thinking of submitting

My resume
Portfolio
Summary of experience
And....
A letter to HR addressing my transition under the company
Diversity policy.

Should I include the letter at the. onset of applying?

What bathroom do I use?

Etc.

Originally Posted by Jet

I wouldn't come out at an interview.

I guess the confusion lies on what you meant by onset of applying? For me the that means at the interview or even in a cover letter.

From your last comment i wonder if you mean at the beginning of employment or onset of a job offer. Which to me is different. I think most jobs at some matter of time it does have to be addressed and when and if I get a new job if the issue needs to be addressed it will be at the beginning.

I say "need be" because i'm further along in the transition process. Currently my name and sex aren't changed so I would need to address it and would want to address it right away because it's easier for people to learn of me one way then to learn one thing and have to change it. Some of it also depends on type of job. I've transitioned in jobs where I'm not in an office setting and i'm not around the same people all the time. When i'm in the office the bathroom is unisex and in my previous job I had to use the bathroom before or after picking up clients so the bathroom wasn't an issue. In these jobs i really haven't addressed the issue, although the one employer did for me. Yet i still had customers that read me as female and again it wasn't worth it to correct not atleast at that time.

I also say "need be" because once everything matches up I don't see a reason to address it unless again it has to be for some odd reason.

[Jet]

I had a lengthy post that I lost on my phone

Bottom line

I'm in the creatve field where company image is everything

I'm in an at will state where you can get fired for any reason

This aint gonna fly no matter how you cut it

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Jet

I had a lengthy post that I lost on my phone

Bottom line

I'm in the creatve field where company image is everything

I'm in an at will state where you can get fired for any reason

This aint gonna fly no matter how you cut it

I'm also confused. I thought you were talking about sending a letter with your resume and cover letter. That's how I read your posts.

Just because you're in an at will state doesn't mean they can necessarily fire you for being trans. It means, you need to research what city, county, and state ordinances your place of work has to follow.

It also means you're going to have to keep a LOT of documentation. You are really really really going to want ANY conversations you have with coworkers, higher ups, etc in email. Trust me on this one.

IF you live in a city/county/state with a gender identity ordinance, I highly highly suggest finding out how much the people who monitor that ordinance (in Austin, it's called the Human Rights Commission/and EEOC) KNOW about gender identity. We DO have an ordinance in Austin, but the people who monitor that sort of thing here are completely ignorant as to what it means. When I filed my complaint after being fired for being trans, they kept lumping me into the gay arena (which there was never an issue at my company with being gay...the issue didn't arise until I came out as trans). The EEOC people couldn't grasp what the problem was. Even after I filled out the paperwork, they changed the wording in my paperwork to reflect a queer issue...which it just wasn't. I had to go back three times, and I finally had to take an advocate with me to speak for me, so I had a witness.

You are going to have to arm yourself with knowledge, and you're going to (probably) have to educate some people. Sad but true.

The best thing you can do though is FIND OUT FIRST what your rights are. The second best thing you can do is DOCUMENT every single interaction with an email. For realz. Sad but true again.


Dylan

[Jet]

I want to write a letter to HR

And probably after the interview if I'm strong candidate

I don't currently pass as male
I feel addressing this early on is important because of the nature of my field; this is at a corporate level where the image of the company and its employees is everything.

If I adress this early on I risk losing a position

If I address after I'm hired
I risk losing job

This is an "at will" state
Where they can fire you over anything.

My transition won't go unnoticed.

[Thinker]

Starting your medical transition while in the midst of any other big thing can be pretty rough. Again, if you don't *have* to deal with a job search right now then maybe you could hold off until you are passing.

If both must happen at the same time, then I really think you're going to have to go about it in the way that feels right and comfortable to you. What Dylan said about educating yourself in advance is critical. After that, you have to do what you think is best. There isn't one right way to do it.

Good luck.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Jet

I want to write a letter to HR

And probably after the interview if I'm strong candidate

I don't currently pass as male
I feel addressing this early on is important because of the nature of my field; this is at a corporate level where the image of the company and its employees is everything.

If I adress this early on I risk losing a position

If I address after I'm hired
I risk losing job

This is an "at will" state
Where they can fire you over anything.

My transition won't go unnoticed.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I feel as though you're taking it as argument

You're going to do what you're going to do and what makes you comfortable

I'm speaking from my own experience in all of this as someone who lost their job in an at will state and as someone who looked for a job for over three years in an at will state. I've written the letter and sent it with a cover letter and resume...no response at ALL. NONE. And that was from a company who stated "Transgendered people [among others] encouraged to apply", and I've come out at interviews at companies who stated they were 'trans-friendly'. They mostly liked that I was 'gay'. They didn't know what to do when I was trans, and I didn't get hired.

I'm confused about this letter. You say, "I want to write a letter to HR" and "And probably after the interview"

So, I'm confused. You want to write a letter to HR. I get the impression based on the above that you want to write a letter before you've even interviewed with the company. Am I correct in that?

And then, am I correct in that you also plan on addressing it after you've interviewed? So, that would mean HR has two letters from you about being trans?

Have you ever sent a letter to HR telling them you were queer? Before you even interviewed? Did you ever send two letters to HR telling them you were queer?

At will does not mean that companies are allowed to just throw some things out the window. I mean, even in at will states, companies are not allowed to fire you for being a woman, being POC, being disabled, being Jewish, etc. Sure we all know they'll find another reason if they really want to fire you for that, but they're not 'allowed' to tell you, "You can't work here, because of your sex, religion, etc".

This is why you have to research your particular city/state/county ordinances. Many companies have no clue what city ordinances are in place. The more information YOU have, the better off you're going to be. You're going to have a much stronger chance of protecting yourself if you arm yourself with knowledge.

Personally, I've found interviewing during transition incredibly difficult. But that's just me. And the way I would handle it now has greatly changed from the way I've handled it in the past (partly because I've already done all the 'coming out' at interviews, and all it got me was laughed at, sideways looks, fearful looks, and uncomfortable awkwardness...it yielded no job).

I also get that you don't pass as male. I get that. And that makes it even harder. Personally, and this is completely based on experience, I would start telling yourself you DO pass, because you ARE a man...and I would dress and act like it in an interview. I mean, I don't know what you're planning on wearing to an interview, but I'd do a suit and tie. If YOU are in an interview, and YOU aren't acting the part, it's going to make everything weird. The interviewer is going to be looking for YOU for guidance on how to act. If you're waivering or uncertain, it's going to make the whole situation uncomfortable. If YOU don't 'believe' you're a man, no one else is going to believe you're a man.

Two/Three years ago, I was in exactly your same position, and an older wiser transguy gave me the same advice. I thought he was completely full of shit ("How can I go in there in a suit and tie when I don't pass?" is what I asked myself), and it really pissed me off. One thing I've found after more and more interviews is that yes, 'passing' was more about attitude than it was about T. I mean, if you're going to tell me you're a man, I would expect a man to show up in a suit and tie for a corporate interview. It's what the 'rule books' say a man wears to a corporate interview. If you're going to tell me you're a man, and you're going to show up in something less than a suit and tie, I'm going to think you're confused...which is going to confuse me. I'm also not going to give you the job, because you didn't show up in the proper attire, and if you can't show up for an interview in 'proper' attire, what's to say you'll show up for work in the 'proper attire'? Your confusion is going to make me confused, and I'm not going to know how to deal with you, and I'm not going to hire you, because I'm going to be uncomfortable. Sad but true. (I'm also not saying I agree with any of this, but it's the way it is in most of America).

Show up in a suit and tie, and you might be surprised how many people never look past that suit and tie and just read you as male for no other reason. Seriously, I have been incredibly mystified at times. People are lazy. I don't know what name you use on your resume, but if you're using your male name, and the company calls expecting a man, you're much better off if you don't 'throw them off'. When people get confused, they get scared, and when they get scared, they don't hire you.

It's binary, and it's complete bullshit, but it's corporate america and people like nice, neat packages. Again, it's complete bullshit, but it's the way it is.
And NO ONE is going to go out and educate themselves on trans issues just so you can have a job. I don't mean that in a harsh way, but it's true. It's a lot easier to just toss out your resume and find another one than it is for people to educate themselves and a whole company on trans issues.

Another reason I wouldn't say anything in an interview or before hand is because HR has to be mindful of covering the company's ass...they're NOT going to want to hire anyone they perceive as being a 'nuisance'. Contrary to popular belief, HR is NOT their for the benefit of the employees...HR is there to protect the company. When it comes down to you or the company, HR is going with the company. Transpeople have the potential to start a whirlwind of shit at companies...not only with health insurance, but also with coworkers and lawsuits. NO HR dept is going to take on a (what they perceive as) possible liability/lawsuit. And if you're already bombarding them with a letter (or two) (read: making an issue out it), it's going to be blindingly apparent to them that you're a possible liability on a number of fronts.

No one's going to educate themselves on trans issues if there's a 'normal' easy candidate available...and in this economy, there are plenty of cis candidates with whom no one has to navigate pronouns/bathrooms/health insurance/lawsuits/name-calling/etc.

You're a man. Walk in there like a man and get a job.


Dylan

P.S. I also like Koop's advice about interview for jobs you don't necessarily want before you go in for the interview you DO want. I wish I'd have thought of that when I was still looking for a job. It's a brilliant idea for anyone, but especially so in this instance.

[Jet]

Ill know more after tomorrow

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Another reason I wouldn't say anything in an interview or before hand is because HR has to be mindful of covering the company's ass...they're NOT going to want to hire anyone they perceive as being a 'nuisance'. Contrary to popular belief, HR is NOT their for the benefit of the employees...HR is there to protect the company. When it comes down to you or the company, HR is going with the company. Transpeople have the potential to start a whirlwind of shit at companies...not only with health insurance, but also with coworkers and lawsuits. NO HR dept is going to take on a (what they perceive as) possible liability/lawsuit. And if you're already bombarding them with a letter (or two) (read: making an issue out it), it's going to be blindingly apparent to them that you're a possible liability on a number of fronts.

This is so very true. Good advice.


Your whole post was spot on, Dylan. Good stuff.

[Jet]

“The city codes of Atlanta and Decatur, however, prohibit discrimination in employment based on gender identity and sexual orientation, and Dekalb County ordinances prohibit discrimination in public employment based on “non-merit factors,” which could be interpreted to include gender identity” (from GPAC’s GenderLaw Guide

[Jet]

http://www.megafamilyproject.org/informed/trans.html

Link for Mega project in Georgia