Negotiating Silence

[SuperFemme]

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

[Pixie]

Hmmmm.....

I think it depends.

For me sometimes I would rather not have the "spotlight" or focus on me.

and other times

I feel too strongly about my opinion I don't want to handle myself wrong.

[atomiczombie]

I think this is a great discussion to have. I guess for me being "silenced" isn't the word that resonates with me. For me, it is "invisible." I feel invisible a lot. I feel invisible when people assume that because I ID as male, that I take up too much space and alienate female ID'd people. I read posts where masculine /transmasculine people are lumped together and talked about, and blanket statements are made about them. Then I hear people saying, this is our discussion, and although we talk about you, you don't have a right to be a part of this discussion. Ouch.

What I want people to know about me is: I am a sweet guy who respects everyone's right to proclaim who they are and speak their truth. I believe that everyone deserves to be respected and listened to and taken seriously. I believe that I do my very best every day to be respectful and kind and a good listener, and to give everyone the space and voice that they feel they need and deserve. I am not someone who ignores someone else's point of view and assumes that I know it all and have nothing to learn. I am very aware that there is a lot that I need to learn, and I try very hard to listen to people and understand where they are coming from.

When someone doesn't see this about me, when someone assumes I won't understand, when someone lumps me in with other people who are disrespectful just because my gender identity might be similar, I feel invisible. I feel just as invisible as when someone calls me "ma'am" or "miss." It feels just as icky, and maybe more since it comes from within the community I love and feel at home in.

What makes YOU (the collective you) feel invisible? I want to know what everyone else feels, and what they would like people like me to know about them.

Thanks for starting this thread Superfemme.

[Pixie]

I feel invisible when there are assumptions. When your words are read but not comprehended and not really given a comfortable stepping stone in explaining. I feel invisible when a different perception is insufficient and misunderstood. Although... I resonate glitter so I don't like to disappear much lol.

[SuperFemme]

Feeling invisible is never a good thing. Invisibility is a fact of life for me as a Femme. I have to come out over and over again.

Blanket statements and generalizations suck. One person cannot speak for the masses. I cringe when I see them, and often address them gently.

As for not being invited to conversations? I can dissect it. I believe it is not only ok but absolutely necessary to carve out safe spaces in our community where sub-groups can discuss. Usually these spaces are not exclusionary, but ask participants not in the sub-group to refrain from speaking the truth of the sub-group. That doesn't mean others cannot participate, it means they are being asked to speak their truth. Not the truth the believe to be somebody elses. It's kind of like a backwards blanket statement.

For example, if I went into a thread about trans people and spoke about the effects of taking testosterone. I don't take it. My partner does, but that is kind of irrelevant. How could I possibly know the shoes another is walking in? As an ally it is tempting to jump in, but there is nothing to offer from my me place. I'm not trans. So I read. Or go to a thread about partners of trans people because I have a journey that is relevant.

Pixiestars. Thank you for your post. It reads to me like you choose to be silent for various reasons. That doesn't mean I am right, it is just my read. May I ask you if you *feel* silence when working within your boundaries?

[Just_G]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I think this is a great discussion to have. I guess for me being "silenced" isn't the word that resonates with me. For me, it is "invisible." I feel invisible a lot. I feel invisible when people assume that because I ID as male, that I take up too much space and alienate female ID'd people. I read posts where masculine /transmasculine people are lumped together and talked about, and blanket statements are made about them. Then I hear people saying, this is our discussion, and although we talk about you, you don't have a right to be a part of this discussion. Ouch.

What I want people to know about me is: I am a sweet guy who respects everyone's right to proclaim who they are and speak their truth. I believe that everyone deserves to be respected and listened to and taken seriously. I believe that I do my very best every day to be respectful and kind and a good listener, and to give everyone the space and voice that they feel they need and deserve. I am not someone who ignores someone else's point of view and assumes that I know it all and have nothing to learn. I am very aware that there is a lot that I need to learn, and I try very hard to listen to people and understand where they are coming from.

When someone doesn't see this about me, when someone assumes I won't understand, when someone lumps me in with other people who are disrespectful just because my gender identity might be similar, I feel invisible. I feel just as invisible as when someone calls me "ma'am" or "miss." It feels just as icky, and maybe more since it comes from within the community I love and feel at home in.

What makes YOU (the collective you) feel invisible? I want to know what everyone else feels, and what they would like people like me to know about them.

Thanks for starting this thread Superfemme.

AZ, you hit the nail on the head here....I don't like being lumped into a certain group because of how I id. I don't like the idea of having to say "that's not fair", because it sounds so third gradish, so I say nothing at all. I remain invisible.

I am also not so great with words when trying to say what is in my head sometimes and feel like I am not explaining myself all that well. Some of the discussions can get pretty deep, and sometimes language is used that I don't fully understand or comprehend. (I am a smart guy, so I am not saying this to put myself down, I just know my reading comprehension skills and vocabulary is not what some people's are). It can be very frustrating.

I am glad you started this thread Superfemme!

[Pixie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Feeling invisible is never a good thing. Invisibility is a fact of life for me as a Femme. I have to come out over and over again.

Pixiestars. Thank you for your post. It reads to me like you choose to be silent for various reasons. That doesn't mean I am right, it is just my read. May I ask you if you *feel* silence when working within your boundaries?

I hear you about the coming out over and over again.

I have had to stay silenced about myself due to job restrictions before. For the comfort of others, which sucks.

Yes sometimes I choose to be silent for prevention, but there are other times its been an instance where I was in the middle and a "so there", "you're wrong period", "done with you" emphasis was left on the end...and the ringing silence was all that was possible. If that makes sense.

[amiyesiam]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;18538]"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel this (above) goes along with the idea that no one can make you feel bad unless you let them. So logic would deem that no one can make me feel good unless I let them. Why is it when people do things that make us feel good, it is ok to feel good? But not when people are mean to us?


I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

Perhaps so many are silenced so often and in so many ways. Anything that comes close to past experience, hits to close to home

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

This is wonderful. It would be, I would think, easier to post from the privacy of ones own home, rather than a face to face discussion. I have to say, that about 98% of the time, when I read that a post is being reported, or if someone is being called out by others, I have to reread. I don't tend to paint others with a negative brush. I tend to function from the premise that others are also engaging in a positive way and not trying to be mean. But then I do not see what goes on off the treads in pm etc. I have to wonder how much "silencing" is going on behind the scenes?


What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

I don't feel silenced on line. I often choose to not engage due to the negativity. When people start pulling things apart, turning it into nitpicking, thinking their point is right rather than their point.
There has been debate other places about saying : I don;t see color" I completely understood the logic. But I was floored, struck dumb actually, on Sat when my new African Amercian co worker stated: I do not see color.
I was SHOCKED. We had a good discussion. The point here is, when we speak, we may speak for our selves, even most of a group. But we are not speaking for everyone. I think when you insist you are right, that can be silencing to others.

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?


You asked LOL
1) understand that not everyone has the same ability to put their thoughts into words. (and this has 0 to do with intelligence) So be gentle and understanding. Ask questions.

2) realize that others have different views and that not everyone will agree with you.

3) Understand that each human has hundreds and hundreds of character traits. It is not possible to find someone who will agree with you on everything.

4) the more we divide ourselves, the more we hurt each other.

5) spend more time focused on what we have in common rather than what makes us different.

6) start realizing most people are good decent folks doing the best they can in life.

7) realize some folks need a cause, a battle, a challenge, a debate

8) make an effort to take people seriously, believe people when they say they are not trying to be negative
(cause ya know, no matter what the words say, when we read we add the tone, snark etc.)

9) when folks say: I am not trying to be "whatever" and people come back and say yes you are, it can really be fustrating, which can lead to people snapping.






I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

funny I wish more people would be silent, but they rarely tell me to be silent.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

[T D]

What I've noticed about these silencing threads is that when one person doesn't like or perhaps even really understand what another persons outlook, perception, view point, history, on and on and on, is they often times come back with a silencing statement, generally about how the other persons post is of no help, pertinent to the subject, or whatever form of silencing they choose to use. It always amazes me that this goes on over and over and over like they're not silencing people with these types of statements. I believe that people often times use them as a means to attack others with hidden agendas. As a rule I try to stay away from them for the most part now because of this very reason.

Just my take on it, and my 2 cents worth at the moment

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

I have a character flaw. When I am told to be silent I talk longer and louder. So not a good girl.

Anyone willing to discuss? Dissenting opinions welcomes.

Eleanor was absolutely correct. By allowing someone's words or actions to take control of me (versus me being in control of my responses), I am giving them power. I am allowing them to dictate my responses. That doesn't mean that whatever it was that they said or did wasn't shitty, because it most likely was, but it means that I just loaded up a silver platter with bits and pieces of myself and said, "Help yourself!"

There have been many times that I have felt silenced over the years (on the internet, specifically, as there are many more reasons in real time). Sometimes, I find myself in discussions that are, honestly, way above my head. And my not being able to grasp all the parts of the conversation frustrates me and I feel as if anything I may say won't be valuable, so I don't speak up. I feel invalidated, though no one may have said that at all or even considered that I might be interested in the conversation.

Sometimes, someone says something that is very generalized or just plain stupid and ignorant and I get so riled up and angry that I have to step away from the computer. I silence myself so that "I" don't become the jackass spewing stupidity everywhere. That works....when I am able to pull myself away. Fortunately, that happens more often than not.

There are times that I feel I would be beating my head into a brick wall....that there is no way in Hell that this person will ever see anyone else's point of view...and that, for me to engage with them would be a giant waste of my time and energy. I feel that I silence myself as well as 'being' silenced by this person, as if their ignorance is suffocating me and my thoughts and words. It sounds very close to what I previously described but is slightly...and significantly...different to me.

Once in a while, I will read something and be incredibly hurt by the statements made by others, whether the person was speaking directly to me or not. You know that feeling before you cry, when you can feel the pressure of the tears building up behind your eyes and your chest feels tight and you have difficulty controlling your breathing? Yeah, I feel that. I hate that out of control feeling. I have a knee jerk reaction to that feeling. I strike out or I pull inside of myself. When my response is the latter, I feel silenced. Of course, I have ultimate control over my emotions and responses to my feelings and emotions, but when it's a knee jerk response....instinctive, really....I feel as if the control has been taken from me.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

For example, if I went into a thread about trans people and spoke about the effects of taking testosterone. I don't take it. My partner does, but that is kind of irrelevant. How could I possibly know the shoes another is walking in? As an ally it is tempting to jump in, but there is nothing to offer from my me place. I'm not trans. So I read. Or go to a thread about partners of trans people because I have a journey that is relevant.

Ok but this kind of example is an orange, not an apple. I am talking about when people who are not transguys or male ID'd talk about male ID'd people and lump them into one group and say that they dominate the space, etc. I read that and think to myself, gee, that may be true of some guys, but I know that isn't me. So that's not fair. I have seen this in more than one thread on this site, and I have seen other things like it said too. I understand that some guys are stupid and don't see other people and consider them. I understand that some guys are misogynist pigs. I see that behavior and cringe. I try to call it out when I do see it. Please, don't lump me in with those guys. It's fine to say that 'some men do such and such, and I have this experience with some men', but don't say men do this and men do that... I feel invisible when people do that. And then to say, this is a women-only discussion and your coming in here and getting defensive is just an example of you silencing us and dominating our space, etc., well that is silencing too.

I totally get that women, butch or femme, deserve to have their own space to discuss their common experiences and ideas. I respect that and I read those threads as a means of educating myself so that I can be more sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. I generally don't post there, cause that's not my place. The only thing that upsets me is when I read things people say about us transguys. Again, some transguys may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

[NJFemmie]

I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

[Andrew, Jr.]

For me, and me alone, I feel like this...my words may not come out right or I use the wrong word to express what it is I want too. I am not one that is good with oral expression-communication. Just how it is. Instead of me constantly asking others to restate it another way, I just leave. My words or phrases or sentences are taken out of context or the words I use are misconstrued to mean one thing, when in reality they were meant to mean something totally different. For me it is like this or this . Life for me is like . I really thought online would be different in a community like this. I am silenced, day in and day out. It is very frustrating. I wish just an ounce of what is inside of me would come to light. Just once. But I know it won't ever happen. That is my reality. I will never have a high corporate job, or be a corporate hot shot. I am not ever going to have that ability. I have to learn to live with what I have been given.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Andrew

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by amiyesiam

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?
You asked LOL
1) understand that not everyone has the same ability to put their thoughts into words. (and this has 0 to do with intelligence) So be gentle and understanding. Ask questions.

Yes! Then when they answer REALLY hear them rather than become irritated if it is an opposing viewpoint.

2) realize that others have different views and that not everyone will agree with you.

Disagreeing may be an art form. I find things spin out of control when someone tried to make their truth everyone elses truth.

3) Understand that each human has hundreds and hundreds of character traits. It is not possible to find someone who will agree with you on everything.

We've all walked different miles. Great point!

4) the more we divide ourselves, the more we hurt each other.

We hurt ourselves in the process.

5) spend more time focused on what we have in common rather than what makes us different.

I'd like to add that celebrating our differences is a wonderful thing in a community as diverse as ours.

6) start realizing most people are good decent folks doing the best they can in life.

More support/less judgment. Great idea.

7) realize some folks need a cause, a battle, a challenge, a debate

I think all of the above are great things, not bad things. With the exception of battles. When we have causes we are passionate about them. When we challenge others and ourselves we grow. When we debate we grow. When me battle dissenting opinions that is not necessarily a bad thing, I think it depends situationally.

8) make an effort to take people seriously, believe people when they say they are not trying to be negative
(cause ya know, no matter what the words say, when we read we add the tone, snark etc.)

Tone is hard in an online format. I have to work hard to post nice sometimes because even though I am not being snarky intentionally it could be perceived that way. Preview before hitting send. Discuss with friends to get their read on it before posting.

9) when folks say: I am not trying to be "whatever" and people come back and say yes you are, it can really be fustrating, which can lead to people snapping.

Yes. I get that feeling Gemme mentioned when this happens.

gratuitous smiles so this will post.

[Linus]

Very interesting thread. There is a lot I want to add but trying to organize it into the best words possible is a challenge right now.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Eleanor Roosevelt

I feel that the above quote is appropriate as a starting point for a discussion I'd like to have.

In all the years I have been a part of online communities the subject of being silenced keeps coming around. I am conflicted on the subject. I want to understand more.

I understand that in a forum, ones post can be deemed *silencing*. In the verb form of the word. The second verb is the act of *being silent* and I wonder if that is not something we must consent to for some reason.

What makes a person *be silent*? Is it the fear of an unpopular opinion? Not liking conflict? Wanting to be liked? Afraid of breaking the rules?

I think the thing that silences me is when I've been told that I'm unwelcomed (not because of a safe space but because I'm a trans guy, a Canadian, a <insert characteristic here>). The most silencing statement was one that said that because I was verbose and took a lot to state something, that a person wouldn't respond because I couldn't keep things more concise and into a sentence or two. I've also been "silenced" because of how I write. It's been suggested that I "talk down" to others. I try to avoid doing this or coming off like this but this silences me to change my language from what I'm used to talking like (I write much like I talk).

Now, does that mean I'm not willing to take constructive criticism and that if I've stated something incorrectly or offensively, I wouldn't apologize or try to learn a new behaviour (vis-a-vis writing style)? No. I'm always willing to learn and do believe that we never stop learning. I do not believe that my opinion is above others; neither do I believe it doesn't have value.

How can we negotiate better with ourselves and each other as a community?

This is a challenge as we are asking for behaviours to be adjusted and minds to open (we all have prejudices, privileges, lack of privilege, etc.). I believe that it is an individual desire to adjust and see where we may be hindering or how we can help avoid silencing or silencing behaviour. Humans, IMO (In My Opinion), are rather stubborn about learning new behaviour, especially stuff related to cooperation. We have been ingrained with competition for so long that it is part of our language and how we talk.

Can we relearn things we did in Kindergarten and how to share better between each other as adults?




**note: I will not be held responsible for typos and such. Caffeine wasn't fully available at time of writing. Any misunderstandings, misquotes, confusion or similar experiences are due entirely to a slow coffee pot. **

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

You bring up a most excellent point twisty lime! Silence = Alienation. In reading through this thread I am getting the sense that this a truth for some.

How can we negotiate this is my question? How as individuals can we not alienate each other?

[Lynn]

A lot of good stuff has been said already.

What silences me is sarcasm and joking in the middle of a real discussion, where people are sharing honestly, the best they can. Also, self-rightgeous indignation, where, based on one comment, or even a nuance, someone feels they can just jump all over another poster for being WRONG. I would not be inclined to get into the middle of a thread with either of those conditions.

On line is a weird thing to me. I can't see your face, but if I think you're laughing at me or not taking me seriously, then I don't want to play. If you are going to jump on me and judge me before really hearing what I have to say, then I'll tend to shut up. That's my issue, but I'm not apt to persist in those cases. I like to think about things, and be heard when I think something is important, but not enough to step into a river of crocodiles.

On line communities have different characteristics, I think. But, they're all made up of people. I think it's unrealistic to think that any group is going to develop flawlessly, without work and commitment.

For me, it is not silencing to ask that the tone of a thread be respected so that the individuals to whom the thread pertains can interact. I read and hold opinions about lots of topics, but you will see me participating with great caution in a thread that does not have to do with me, personally. I find that to be respectful, and asking the same of others in the threads about me does not seem silencing. It's respecting the diversity of the community.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Linus

Very interesting thread. There is a lot I want to add but trying to organize it into the best words possible is a challenge right now.



I think the thing that silences me is when I've been told that I'm unwelcomed (not because of a safe space but because I'm a trans guy, a Canadian, a <insert characteristic here>). The most silencing statement was one that said that because I was verbose and took a lot to state something, that a person wouldn't respond because I couldn't keep things more concise and into a sentence or two. I've also been "silenced" because of how I write. It's been suggested that I "talk down" to others. I try to avoid doing this or coming off like this but this silences me to change my language from what I'm used to talking like (I write much like I talk).

Now, does that mean I'm not willing to take constructive criticism and that if I've stated something incorrectly or offensively, I wouldn't apologize or try to learn a new behaviour (vis-a-vis writing style)? No. I'm always willing to learn and do believe that we never stop learning. I do not believe that my opinion is above others; neither do I believe it doesn't have value.
[FONT=Century Gothic]


This is a challenge as we are asking for behaviours to be adjusted and minds to open (we all have prejudices, privileges, lack of privilege, etc.). I believe that it is an individual desire to adjust and see where we may be hindering or how we can help avoid silencing or silencing behaviour. Humans, IMO (In My Opinion), are rather stubborn about learning new behaviour, especially stuff related to cooperation. We have been ingrained with competition for so long that it is part of our language and how we talk.

Can we relearn things we did in Kindergarten and how to share better between each other as adults?




**note: I will not be held responsible for typos and such. Caffeine wasn't fully available at time of writing. Any misunderstandings, misquotes, confusion or similar experiences are due entirely to a slow coffee pot. **

Great points Linus! You bring up something that just made a light bulb go off for me. People criticizing writing styles and spelling/grammar usage.

I have seen this many times and it just seems mean spirited to tell another poster they are being skipped over because they write too much or can't spell. It is painful to read those kinds of exchanges.

Basic human kindness tells me that even *if* one is skipping over posts or doesn't find them easy to read it doesn't need to be said in public. For goodness sake! I see the ways we shame each other and I can't stand it. Shame = Silence = Alienation.

[Apocalipstic]

Great subject SuperFemme!

I see many times when because of cultural, geographic or differences in communication styles and plain old reading comprehension people get in a frenzy and report posts that were not meant to be offensive, and in fact, if read in the right tone were not offensive at all. Not so much on this website, but I have seen it a couple of times here.

I think it is important that rather than assuming the worst, we try and look at the whys and the what really was said.

Of course, at the point we are misunderstood, we can choose to feel silenced, or we can explain and apologize. For me, navigating these threads does involve a good bit of apologizing and trying to see things from different standpoints.

Atomic, I completely get and hear what you are saying. There is so much pain and anger around how Butches identify and where the Trans community fits in. My belief is that individual people who have or have had very small views of the world say hurtful things and it gets blown up to affect the entire community at large. I admit I am guilty of wanting there to be a place for woman identified Butches, because when my G/F joined B-F and met people in person she was told she was not allowed to be called she and that her name would have to be changed to Sydney or Chris. She chose to remove herself from the issue and stay off the threads which makes me pretty sad. For me, I do think there need to be places where different groups can discuss their own issues...I am particularly enjoying the Femme threads for example.

On the other hand,
When we are together, who cares about ID's unless we are trying to date. I wish we could get to that point on line.

I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them.

I wish that too. On the other hand sometimes I wish some would change how they see others..