June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[The_Lady_Snow]

Romney would love for all women to be like Mrs Cleaver, and I don't mean in a kink/dynamic/sexy time kinda way

[The_Lady_Snow]

During the Cleaver years only white women could vote. I can see how maybe June Cleaver could of gained power and gone to school, educated herself, had the opportunity to join the feminist movement. I get where Nomad could think about how June could of.


It wasn't till 1964-65 that POC could vote in Southern states.



I can toy with the idea of her being a feminist, educated, working mother. Someone like me, my mom, my cousin, my friends.

They wouldn't of had the chance, or would of died trying.


It's profound when you look at it in this way for me. She, Mrs Cleaver would be in my life only in kink, and even then I would be in charge of what Ward would from his tie to his meals.


ETA

I thought more about this and then I was like FML

If Mrs Cleaver would of come out of the closet, had she been like US, here on BFP she would of lost her sons, her life, her comforts. Hell, let's be honest she wouldn't of been able to date outside her race without worrying about both of them being KILLED.


WOW....

[girl_dee]

Holy heck i am cross posting on the Planet.

i realized i probably should have posted this here!





i think for some people, possibly myself included, we don't feel that we are whitewashing history by adopting certain behaviors from that time period.

i get that women had no rights, i get that women were stripped of our dreams, hopes and the right to live in our own skin. Hell as an adult i was told i made less money than my male co-worker because he had a high house note to pay. We did the exact same job, only i did mine more efficiently.

By me choosing to embrace being a home maker doesn't by any stretch mean that i do not get and honor that time period and the struggles we still go through.

In fact it feels even more empowering in some ways because i am choose to live this way, i love what i do, i get to choose, and no matter what my choice it is honored.
__________________

ETA Maybe this is my kink?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I hear and get your choice.


Your choices differ from mine.


When I speak of racism when it comes to The Cleavers, I have to, it's a kick to the gut when someone wants to hold you up to something you will never be.

(not saying dee is)

So when I bring up race, culture I do because it's part of my everyday function as Snow the Latina.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I thought of getting some ink, and I was discussing it with my Pack and I shared what I was thinking.

Months passed by and on Friday Worm comes to me and says:

"I've been thinking about you Joker tattoo and then I realized you could NEVER (he used quotation marks when saying never) EVER be Harley Quinn."


I was like oh?

"Nope, I am pretty "SURE" you can't and let me tell you why"

I sat quietly and waited....

I've gone through this with my kids before so it happens.


He reminds me that no only am I "Mexican" I was not "Blonde" I did not have "Straight Hair" then he went on this description of my hair.

I was like.

I can be Harley Quinn if I fucking want Worm, because it's Halloween.

He walked away and I started having this long and deep discussion about that AHA moment with a few other people.


I can role play somethings, I can pretend to be something, but somethings. I will never be able to be.

He's right.

[girl_dee]

Yes and i hadn't read your post before i posted mine. i just did.

Thanks for the reminder because in my world/skin it's easy to forget.

i've been thinking lots about this since this thread started. Thanks for that!

[aishah]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

When I speak of racism when it comes to The Cleavers, I have to, it's a kick to the gut when someone wants to hold you up to something you will never be.

this, for me, is the biggest kicker. the fact that non-white women are held to this standard when it is something that we could not and never could have met - and it's really a double bind because the system is set up specifically to deny us ever having the possibility of being like june cleaver. during this time period native & black women were also being sterilized by the state, as were disabled women, and our children were forcibly taken from us and sent to boarding schools for forced assimilation or adopted out to white families.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I thought of getting some ink, and I was discussing it with my Pack and I shared what I was thinking.

Months passed by and on Friday Worm comes to me and says:

"I've been thinking about you Joker tattoo and then I realized you could NEVER (he used quotation marks when saying never) EVER be Harley Quinn."


I was like oh?

"Nope, I am pretty "SURE" you can't and let me tell you why"

I sat quietly and waited....

I've gone through this with my kids before so it happens.


He reminds me that no only am I "Mexican" I was not "Blonde" I did not have "Straight Hair" then he went on this description of my hair.

I was like.

I can be Harley Quinn if I fucking want Worm, because it's Halloween.

He walked away and I started having this long and deep discussion about that AHA moment with a few other people.


I can role play somethings, I can pretend to be something, but somethings. I will never be able to be.

He's right.

But do you want to be?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

But do you want to be?

Laughs, well yeah sometimes I want to be white..


I would love to know what it feels like to sit at dinner with your guy and his cousin and not have some dick head look at you like you have boogers on your chin and ask you:

"So where are you from?"


I'd love to just be able to fucking appropriate Cinco De Mayo with my girlfriends, eat $1.00 tacos, drink some margaritas, SCREAM LOUDLY HAPPY CINCO DE DRINKO!


Sometimes, I do think about it and I want to be.


Then I think, don't be such a cunt Snow stop shitting on your people cause you want easy.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

[blush]

I wonder why we hold up a white male fantasy as any kind of definition of femme.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

Yes. The actress from Modern Family, Claire Huxtable...

I'm jealous of the seemingly effortless power those women embody.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

nope. i like it easy. i am not proud of the suffering of others at the white man's hand, because i am white. i am ashamed actually, but wouldn't want to trade places with a person of color. i have always admired the power of Latina women. My Latina friend told me she would never marry a Latina man because they expected the women to do it all. My niece married a Latina man and his family was pretty much in shock when she expected him to help with the child raising and housework.

without doing the *my best friend is a POC* i will say...


i grew up with and have had lots of POC in my life. My best friend as a kid was Hector from Mexico. i often thought it was cool that his dad didn't do the disciplining, his mom did. They ate cool food and gave me my first taco. i learned what home made tortillas were and he learned what a beignet was. i also knew that no matter how little we had, they had less. Our moms were best friends and we would go to the church to pick up boxes of food for them. i knew then i was lucky to be who i was. Privilege without realizing what it was.

Growing up people i worked and played with were mostly POC, and some people from Cuba, Guatemala, Mexico and Honduras, then when the Vietnam was over we received thousands of Vietnamese folks in our area. Thinking about it i think we were the only white folks in the neighborhood. Hearing their stories of what real struggle is all about, and not even hitting the tip of the iceberg of what their life is like, has always made me grateful to be born on an easier route in life.

When i was a kid i didn't feel much different from them, we were all just trying to survive, but now i know we are worlds apart. The only thing we really had in common was we lived in a poor neighborhood and didn't have much in the world.

Actually until it was pointed out to me (much on this site) i honestly denied my privilege.

i am now in Canada where i have seen about two POC since i got here. Quite a contrast from where i am from. i am so glad i grew up where i did in a way because i was exposed to all different people my entire life.

[girl_dee]

PS i love the tattoo art

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

going out on my limb---

when i went to live with my parents, one of the things my mom told me was that i could be anything i wanted to be. (she was white so she had the luxury of telling me that)

i told her i wanted to be a hummingbird or a dragonfly.

it took her a week to drum up the stones to explain that i couldnt be either and i was truly heartbroken because being human isnt the end all and be all to me. frankly, there are times i could give two f*cks about being human at all. she told me, in a nutshell, that i had to limit myself to human being things.

sometime after that someone asked me what i wanted "to be" when i grew up and i said i wanted to be like Mrs Prejean (a teacher at my school). he said, 'oh you want to be a teacher!' and i said, 'no, i want to be a ballerina and a botanist but i want to look like Mrs Prejean because she's the smartest and prettiest lady i know.' so my 6-year old shit hits this guy's fan because Mrs Prejean isnt white.

when i think about her now, through that 6-year old's eyes, she may still be the smartest and prettiest lady i know. the 49-year old remembers her as the person who told my parents i needed glasses and the person who let me read ahead rather than making me wait for the rest of the class and the person who cleaned me up when someone's belligerent, alcoholic father scared the piss out of me (literally) on the playground.

stupid kid story. yeah. i know. do i want to be a woman of color now? WANT? no. i'm too steeped in my privilege. f*ck i dont even know how much privilege i have. but my heart says i'd rather be Mrs Prejean than June Cleaver any day. Mrs Prejean was real.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by blush

I wonder why we hold up a white male fantasy as any kind of definition of femme.

Oh this is such a good post!!!

Originally Posted by blush

Yes. The actress from Modern Family, Claire Huxtable...

I'm jealous of the seemingly effortless power those women embody.

Wasn't she magnificent? She was such strong woman, and wow could she handle those kids.

Plus i always wished i had been a lawyer. But, even in my day (80s) going into nursing school was more "acceptable" than law school down in these parts and in my own family. Now, don't get me wrong, i love being a nurse, but if i had really truly had a choice? Not so sure i would have picked nursing over law.

But, at least my generation had a choice to even have a career, unlike my mother's generation....

And...

I have a strong wish or more of a "will" i'd say, that the youg'ens growing up today will not have to choose a career path that leads them to what is acceptable, but to become anything...their hearts desire..

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Actually until it was pointed out to me (much on this site) i honestly denied my privilege.

ditto

i didnt even know i had privilege until i was in my 30s and after that i squirmed around the topic for a good 5 years because i confused the fact of my privilege with being actively engaged in discrimination. i compared who i was to the racist neighbors we had when i was in high school who were more than happy to exclude us from block parties and etc because my mom's last husband wasnt white. i didnt get it. it was totally asinine behavior that made no sense to me and i couldnt identify with people i openly despised.



embarrasses me now.

[girl_dee]

Sharing is caring.

This is me with my brother. Nope we don't look alike because he is my half-brother from another father.



Here's me, full submissive pose, (heh) with my brother helping me tie on my kerchief. This set came with all the things little girls played with in my day, a brook, a dustmop and play dishes.

A couple of years later, i wanted to be a pilot. i got a Barbie airplane as i was fascinated with planes. i wanted to pretend to fly the damn thing. Only when i got it, the man pilot was painted in the cockpit and Barbie was to serve the beverages.





i remember thinking, *oh yeah, i can't be a pilot, only men are pilots*

i am glad the kids of today have more options than we did, but we still have light years to go.

Not long ago i was ordering some kids toys, and there were these play sets for 6 year old.

The *boy* set contained a Firefighter hat, a Police Badge, and a hammer and drill.

The *girl* set contained a tiara, a play broom and plastic heels.



Yup we still got a long way to go. i feel who we are as kids strongly molds who we are as adults. We cannot leave it up to the men out there to teach our young girls who and what they are destined to be.

[aishah]

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by aishah

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.

Oh Aishah i love you girl did you know that!!!

You hit the nail on the head.

Also, we are making changes and clearing paths even if it is just with discussing things and opening up "minds" here and elsewhere. Just as the June Cleavers before us did, just as the next generation will continue to do.