Christians apologizing

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I can be incredibly literal but I dont take people apologizing on behalf of a group they belong to literally. It is a figurative thing to me. It is an acknowledgement that there is a disconnect between what ones faith says and what it does. And, it is an acknowlegdement that it is not an ok thing to do. To me, that is a very powerful thing for an individual to do.

In the same vein, I dont have a problem with the "love the sinner but not the sin" perspective. To me, to love the "sinner" requires them to acknowledge I am a human being....just like them. To me, that is where the potential for change lies. One on one, not one against an institution is where hearts change. That, to me, is where the power is.

It is all in ones perspective. Some need very public declarations of acceptance and validation, some need laws for equality and equity, some need to see their oppressors almost in a subserviant, remorseful position on their knees begging for forgiveness ad infinitum, some need something external to heal the inner wounds, some just want an attitude of live and let live, some need a combination of things. Different stuff works for different people for different reasons at different times.

To me, what is important is remembering we are all human and with that humanness comes a lot of good stuff as well as unpleasant and upsetting stuff. Accepting oneself as well as others as imperfect, flawed, yet interconnected human beings. Herein, to me, is where the potential for lasting change and peace resides.

We easily see the hatred outside of our community directed at our community. Yet, we try hard to be blind to the hatred within our community directed at one another. Be it racism, sexism, misogyny, transphobia, classism, elitism etc.

I do believe, as long as we (general we) believe there is an us and a them, strife will continue. Healing of the human condition will come when it comes from and for a collective we. As long as we focus on the trees, the forest will remain out of sight.

You make some great points! My thoughts on the "love the sinner" theory is that is lumps who I am, fundamentally, with sin. Sin like murder. Sin like cheating. And it's even worse than that because to avoid my "sin," I must be alone. That's not acceptable to me.

[Arwen]

I'm fairly adamant about my feelings on "love the sinner". It pisses me right off to be told that the way I express my feelings of safety and comfort and joy with another human being is somehow wrong? Bull shit.

And what's more? I don't want an apology from anyone who didn't do it. That's like asking blush to apologize to me for an English professor who gave me a 90 on a test. She had nothing to do with that.

That kind of apology is very hollow to me.

Mainstream Christians couldn't be further from Christ's teaching. I've read the Bible, believe it or not. I've had some heart-to-heart discussions with some fundamental Christians who are, in my opinion for all that matters, true followers of Yeshua. They felt that the person they needed to work the hardest on was themselves. One woman, named Rose, stunned me when she looked me in the eye and said, "I can't judge you. I'm not perfect."

I'd heard that statement before (and since), but it moved me deeply. It's because of people like her and others (some right here in the thread) that I don't close my heart and mind to all those who claim to be followers of Christ.

I may not be a follower but I do believe in the power of being good to one another. And that's what I hope to see a lot more of. Not these fools who want to cause more trouble in Christ's name.

That's just one non-Christian's input. Just don't apologize to me unless you have something to apologize for.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I'm fairly adamant about my feelings on "love the sinner". It pisses me right off to be told that the way I express my feelings of safety and comfort and joy with another human being is somehow wrong? Bull shit.

And what's more? I don't want an apology from anyone who didn't do it. That's like asking blush to apologize to me for an English professor who gave me a 90 on a test. She had nothing to do with that.

That kind of apology is very hollow to me.

Mainstream Christians couldn't be further from Christ's teaching. I've read the Bible, believe it or not. I've had some heart-to-heart discussions with some fundamental Christians who are, in my opinion for all that matters, true followers of Yeshua. They felt that the person they needed to work the hardest on was themselves. One woman, named Rose, stunned me when she looked me in the eye and said, "I can't judge you. I'm not perfect."

I'd heard that statement before (and since), but it moved me deeply. It's because of people like her and others (some right here in the thread) that I don't close my heart and mind to all those who claim to be followers of Christ.

I may not be a follower but I do believe in the power of being good to one another. And that's what I hope to see a lot more of. Not these fools who want to cause more trouble in Christ's name.

That's just one non-Christian's input. Just don't apologize to me unless you have something to apologize for.

Actually, it WAS me on that test. Sorry.

The whole "love the sinner" gambit adds to the feeling of "otherness." Because, unlike murder or other sins, we're more than likely going to do it again. So while everyone sins, our sins are unique in that they are unavoidable.

For the record, I do not follow the Christian faith. I respect all religions, and I acknowledge the special cultural significance Christianity has in the US.

As far as apologizing, it depends on intent. I would love to see a spiritual overhaul and redefining of homosexuality as not a sin. As long as homosexuality is seen as a sin, something punishable, something that we have to deny, apologies are meaningless. It's like saying, "We're sorry we were THAT mean to you. We still think you're shit, but we went too far." I find it super interesting that homosexuality seems to rank on the really, really bad sins. You don't see cheaters or murders being harassed the way we are.

As far as apologizing for the masses, it again depends. I will accept any sincere apology with personal responsibility. It isn't necessary, but change is.