Flirting in a Non-GLBT Space

[Girl_On_Fire]

Femme visability is something I'm sure many femmes can identify with. I wanted to start a topic on meeting a potential mate outside the GLBT community. Obviously, at a club, bar or website that caters to the GLBT community, the dynamic is understood but what about outside that space?

As a femme, if you meet someone you find attractive, how do you approach the person? How do you let hym/her know you're interested without feeling foolish? I don't know about you but I've got no game. I'm very shy when it comes to flirting or I'm way too forward. There's simply no in between with me.

I mean, how do you say, "Hey, I see you're in the Queer community too. So am I but you just can't tell. Want to have lunch?" lol!

I have this lovely rainbow necklace I wear that could possibly come in handy sometime but some appropriate social advice would be great.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm forward, if I get turned down, oh well. At least I know.

[homoe]

Nothing ventured nothing gained ~

[pinkgeek]

Just flirt. I don't change my tactic from gay bar to Starbucks. Someone being straight or saying no doesn't / hasn't ever phased me.

Being femme (for me) is a fierce endeavor and that includes getting my flirt on where and when I want to.

[CherylNYC]

Butches are often shy, and they have good reasons to assume that all women they might find attractive and interesting when they're in straight spaces are straight. We can spot them, but without that rainbow necklace they have no reason to suspect that they might be in the same room with one of us. Honestly, if I were a butch I would never EVER have the moxie to approach a woman for a date outside of designated LGBT space.

When I see an interesting looking butch I take a deep breath, then simply smile as openly as I can, extend my hand, and say, "Hi, I'm Cheryl". I catch her eye and smile some more, waiting for her to respond. If I get nothing, I just say, "It's nice to meet you". I then force myself to not immediately run away in terror. A shy butch may be totally overwhelmed by the sudden attention and may need a few extra seconds to order her thoughts before responding.

Just remember that a butch in straight space has had a lifetime of feeling like there's water everywhere with nary a drop to drink. When I put myself in the place of a butch in straight space I know that it would take me far more than a few seconds to overcome the habitual hobbling of my flirting muscles in that circumstance.

[girl_dee]

as i've said, a 2x4 in your purse works well!

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

When I moved up here to Arkansas from FL, it was often really difficult for me to find others that I thought MIGHT be LBGT. Gay-dar was not working for me, and I had been surprised (and subsequently embarrassed) by assuming that the butch looking woman was gay, when in fact she was more of a country-small-town woman. Big difference from the women I had been used to in FL! Combine that with my own femme invisibility and I just about gave up!

Then I saw a couple of women at the grocery store, adn do admit to following them with my own shopping cart. (I know, kinda creepy, right?) Trying to get their attention, smiling, then saying something like "I just moved here to AR, and it is SO nice to see other family here!". Or the usual "Do I know you? You both look so familiar to me! Umm, would you happen to be family?"

I ended up meeting my fiance in an online service. She and I were both JUST looking for friends. hehehe.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Butches are often shy, and they have good reasons to assume that all women they might find attractive and interesting when they're in straight spaces are straight. We can spot them, but without that rainbow necklace they have no reason to suspect that they might be in the same room with one of us. Honestly, if I were a butch I would never EVER have the moxie to approach a woman for a date outside of designated LGBT space.

When I see an interesting looking butch I take a deep breath, then simply smile as openly as I can, extend my hand, and say, "Hi, I'm Cheryl". I catch her eye and smile some more, waiting for her to respond. If I get nothing, I just say, "It's nice to meet you". I then force myself to not immediately run away in terror. A shy butch may be totally overwhelmed by the sudden attention and may need a few extra seconds to order her thoughts before responding.

Just remember that a butch in straight space has had a lifetime of feeling like there's water everywhere with nary a drop to drink. When I put myself in the place of a butch in straight space I know that it would take me far more than a few seconds to overcome the habitual hobbling of my flirting muscles in that circumstance.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

[Nat]

Flirting in non-GLBT space is definitely a different ballgame than in glbt space. I don't know if what I do is actually flirtation, but I definitely convey my appreciation in what I hope is a harmless way. I don't think I knew how to flirt with butches when I first came out - but over time it's become second-nature to give that look of acknowledgement/appreciation/knowing that tends to cause a corresponding blush or shy smile or stammer enough times for me to know that the message is conveyed. And occasionally a free coffee.

My intention is more of an "I see you" in an appreciative way than anything more aggressive - because I don't want to unintentionally communicate availability.

When I was single and found somebody attractive, it usually worked pretty well to be friendly and direct. A casual compliment works well if the person is available and interested. Many people will open up if you ask a few questions that aren't too invasive but require an opinion or history of some sort. I think the secret to successful flirting is not to be too invested in the results.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Cheryl NYC

Butches are often shy, and they have good reasons to assume that all women they might find attractive and interesting when they're in straight spaces are straight. We can spot them, but without that rainbow necklace they have no reason to suspect that they might be in the same room with one of us. Honestly, if I were a butch I would never EVER have the moxie to approach a woman for a date outside of designated LGBT space.

When I see an interesting looking butch I take a deep breath, then simply smile as openly as I can, extend my hand, and say, "Hi, I'm Cheryl". I catch her eye and smile some more, waiting for her to respond. If I get nothing, I just say, "It's nice to meet you". I then force myself to not immediately run away in terror. A shy butch may be totally overwhelmed by the sudden attention and may need a few extra seconds to order her thoughts before responding.

Just remember that a butch in straight space has had a lifetime of feeling like there's water everywhere with nary a drop to drink. When I put myself in the place of a butch in straight space I know that it would take me far more than a few seconds to overcome the habitual hobbling of my flirting muscles in that circumstance.

excuse me
if I may invade the femme zone briefly
only to say this is the most insightful post describing
the butch experience that I have ever read
And it came from a femme.

thank you

[Venus007]

I work the fundamentals of flirting
Smile
Eye contact
Arrange for a touch, shaking hands, hand on the arm etc
then move in for the chatting and flirting while working the fundamentals.
I have found a little bit of ribbing and teasing goes well to establish rapport
I get turned down sometimes, I get surprised straight women occasionally but usually I get at least a fun chat and a if I am lucky a phone number or we leave together

[Play]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Butches are often shy, and they have good reasons to assume that all women they might find attractive and interesting when they're in straight spaces are straight. We can spot them, but without that rainbow necklace they have no reason to suspect that they might be in the same room with one of us. Honestly, if I were a butch I would never EVER have the moxie to approach a woman for a date outside of designated LGBT space.

When I see an interesting looking butch I take a deep breath, then simply smile as openly as I can, extend my hand, and say, "Hi, I'm Cheryl". I catch her eye and smile some more, waiting for her to respond. If I get nothing, I just say, "It's nice to meet you". I then force myself to not immediately run away in terror. A shy butch may be totally overwhelmed by the sudden attention and may need a few extra seconds to order her thoughts before responding.

Just remember that a butch in straight space has had a lifetime of feeling like there's water everywhere with nary a drop to drink. When I put myself in the place of a butch in straight space I know that it would take me far more than a few seconds to overcome the habitual hobbling of my flirting muscles in that circumstance.

This really hit home with me. I think I am fairly friendly when spoken to, but
because I present as masculine I don't engage in small talk unless someone
else initiates the conversation. I don't spend a lot of time in bars or clubs so
most of my experiences are out in the world where I have no clue about sexual
orientation. When a woman smiles or says "Hi" to me, I just assume they think
they know me or are generally friendly. Sometimes, if I am out with a friend or
my girl they will say something like "She looked you up and down so she was
definitely flirting with you." I tend to think that femmes that are in a public
setting that smile and wink or whatever the acknowledgment, is just saying
I recognize you are butch. This is always welcomed. I think the most common
form of "family" recognition is the prolonged eye contact. Even if no words are
exchanged it is just a nod to like people. Sadly, there are many spaces where
it is not safe to flirt, or even strike up a conversation because of backlash from
co-workers, family members or whomever.

So femmes, if you see a butch out there in the big bad world for all to see and
judge, give them a smile, a wink, a "Hi there" or any other acknowlegement.

It will make their day!

[Angeltoes]

It's all in eye contact and body language. A lot of people think I'm flirting with them even when that's the farthest thing from my mind. If you smile and lock eyes with someone that person usually know you're interested.

[Gemme]

Eye contact, that specific head tilt, and a slow grin usually works. At least enough to make them think, "Maybe...."

[sofimichi]

SUBSCRIBING!

[rustedrims]

As Dee said earlier about the 2x4 well that's me.
A week ago I went into Home Depo and this girl was trying to sell me a generator that directly connects to all the house stuff. She was very close to me talking and selling and looking into my eyes. She had her hand on my arm my hand and my shoulder then taking her hand all the way down my back. She did make me smile. That was just when I stepped in the store. I found what I was looking for and went back to the same door I entered because that is where I parked. Of course I talked to her again and still smiling. She did the same thing again. Very "touchy" and followed me to the door. My instinct was to look back to see if she was looking but I didn't. I am still wondering if she was waiting for me to look back. I mentioned this to someone and a simple answer was given "She was flurting with you." I said oh I kinda thought so. Out here where I live this lifestyle is still viewed as entertainment sad to say. Maybe the reason I didn't react was fear of rejection or being made fun of. Another maybe..what if she had a bet going with the casher that she could pick up more than 3 Butches that day. Sounds like I am shooting myself down but when reality kicks me in the face a few times then I finally remember. Thinking of a reason to leave this very small house today and maybe I thought of one. Think I feel like going to Home Depo and buying a paint brush or something small that I don't need.

Can I just add that Cheryl said it perfectly using the most perfect words and I thank you for sticking up for us. Very well said.
Dude-thanks for saying what you said to. It was also perfect.

Sorry to barge in on all you femmes but I thought this was a good place for my story of a 2x4 butch that I am.

S.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think it really depends WHERE on the earth you are.

not everywhere is like where you live right now.

In London, never a problem. I'd get hit on all the time outside LGBT space. Butches and dykes and bis and femmes had no issue with letting me know they were interested. Also when I smiled and winked and purred, I did not need a 2x4 to let one know I was interested.

But here in vancouver? People are friendly, but reserved. I've had people tell me they were interested after hours of talking and you could have knocked me over with a feather. No sign whatsoever that they found me even remotely attractive. No lingering glance, no body check out, no sparkly look, nothing. wall. the reserve is worse than the UK in that regard.

So if I flirt, even in a LGTB space and get *nothing* back within... a three minute conversation, not even a twinkle in the eye, I leave. I've had my nads out quite a bit in my life too. if *I* am approaching, and smiling, and flirting and they can't show even the slightest bit of sexual interest? not even a two second eye drop?
Bye.

I have been on a couple of dates where people have NOT been afraid to throw me a bone when I approach - I'm not a nervous and inexperienced 20 year old femme and I'm not approaching inexperienced butches. If they can't tell I'm interested and they can't express interest back, then I am not going to stand there being vulnerable and harass someone who for all purposes looks to me like they want to be left alone. it's takes some serious huevos to approach someone who's body language is "FUCK OFF" in the first place. I hope butches do realise that it does take us some serious nerve to approach and flirt with a "GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME" body language. Or as I like to call it: "resting grump face"

So I expect the slack to be mutually cut to me, too.

Edit to add - touching someone, I would never ever do. I have been brought up that you don't touch strangers, even on the arm. No one I know touches me to flirt. It's a no-no. So regional rituals are in effect. I know some places, it's completely acceptable and it isn't even a flirt.

If a butch ever came up to me, I would take the offer of buying me a coffee as a flirt. Whereas, who knows, someplace else, that's just polite. But I have to start somewhere to accept someone else's advances or I'd never get a fucking date.

Rusted rims, have you thought that maybe the girl touching your arm and flirting with you might have been very nervous as feeling vulnerable herself, then you walked off? You could have gotten really pissed off with her, accused her of something, told her your gf was in the car and gotten frosty....

I think a lot of us always assume the other person is coming from a place of perfect confidence. We aren't. We are all nervous. We are all vulnerable. I hope people would respond in that manner.

[rustedrims]

First of all I wasn't expecting it and things out here just don't happen like that. It is entertainment and a small chance to be harassed. I didn't want to walk into something I wasn't prepared for. Maybe the next time I might be a little more curious and take the hint and ask something like are you hitting on me? Guess I had other things on my mind. I don't know.

[imperfect_cupcake]

smiling back, thinking something naughty and grinning, giving her a wink, those are all accepted things to flirt back with. You don't have to go straight for "are you flirting with me" lol

I'd probably deny it if asked too abruptly. I'd feel as if I'd offended someone and back paddle very quickly.

but that's me.

I'm not yelling at you RR. I'm just saying your brain talk is all about how vulnerable you were. maybe considering that she is too might help? that's all. She's giving a small chance she could be harassed by other people in the store after you leave, a small chance you could get angry, a small chance that you are taken and get snotty and reject her in an unpleasant way. the risks aren't all on one side... that's all I'm trying to point out to people

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by rustedrims

Sorry to barge in on all you femmes but I thought this was a good place for my story of a 2x4 butch that I am.

S.

Oh no, that's okay. I can't speak for everybody but I appreciate the feedback.