Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer

What I never understood was
why do those who choose not to have children
feel the need to judge those of us who do and
them flame us with those nasty little words.
They made their choice, we made ours and if your
reading this today, thank a mother.

I think because people without children feel oppressed by those who have them?

I knew two sisters who stopped talking for a whole year because the one with a child told the one without a child that she didn't feel like she was a real woman until she gave birth. So it cuts both ways. It's painful on both sides, I think.

[Spirit Dancer]

[Lady Pamela]

Even in the dictionary it reads:

breed·er (brdr)
n.
1. A person who breeds animals or plants.
2. An animal kept to produce offspring.
3. Offensive Slang A heterosexual person.
4. A source or cause: social injustice breeder of revolutions.


Right here it clearing shows many forms of how it is offensive.
And a huge amount of offensive sides are not even listed.

The word implies we are like cattle...Held to reproduce only.

And degrades our parenthood.

I for one was not raised to breed.
My mother never taught me that was what my adulthood looked like.
I chose my mothering. And adore and cherrish it.

[SuperFemme]

I really don't want this thread to turn into what Dylan thinks about how women are groomed. I get what hy is saying and I hear hym.

I started this thread because just seeing the word upset me. It has been used about me in conjunction with how "girly girl" I am on several occasions. As if being a Queer Woman is a balancing act of being Queer but not too "Girly".

I don't think I will ever change my girliness or being a Femme. I wonder why that is frowned upon?

Raising kids with a mom, a dad and a partner feels subversive to some degree. More people to love and shape a child and I get to be *me*. It took me a long time to be brave enough to do that.

[Spirit Dancer]

Originally Posted by Nat

I think because people without children feel oppressed by those who have them?

I knew two sisters who stopped talking for a whole year because the one with a child told the one without a child that she didn't feel like she was a real woman until she gave birth. So it cuts both ways. It's painful on both sides, I think.

Yes I know that, but was referring to those who made the choice not
to have a child. I feel for those who want and cannot have a child, my heart breaks for them.

[Liam]

I think it is heterophobic.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by JustJo

How about if we say parent? mother?

I wasn't bred...I'm not a cow.

I became pregnant. I am a mother. I parent. Any of those is better, at least to me.

I agree that women are judged, in part, by whether or not they have children. We are also judged, in part, by our physical appearance, how much money we make or have, who we partner with. the class we are born into, the car we drive, the clothes we wear and more.

For me, the central problem isn't that women are raised to be mothers or measure their worth by their sexual appeal to others (although I have a problem with both of those things)...it's that we aren't generally raised to treasure our own individuality - no matter what it looks like or where it takes us.

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer

/derail
I wish this was true for all mothers.

[Nat]

I was watching youtubes of queer poetry recently and I ran into this discussion of the term "stud." I found it really interesting because I'd never heard anybody argue against the use of the term "stud" within the queer community and also because of the relationship of that word to breeding animals. Obviously this is a term many people in our community claim with pride, I really think there are possible parallels between the terms "stud" and "breeder."

(Since you mentioned other words that hurt our own)

[The_Lady_Snow]

I personally do not see women less than just because they can not or do not or choose not to have children.

Does not make them less than to me...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Nat

I was watching youtubes of queer poetry recently and I ran into this discussion of the term "stud." I found it really interesting because I'd never heard anybody argue against the use of the term "stud" within the queer community and also because of the relationship of that word to breeding animals. Obviously this is a term many people in our community claim with pride, I really think there are possible parallels between the terms "stud" and "breeder."

(Since you mentioned other words that hurt our own)

Stud in our culture means more of a machismo way of saying the best.

At least in my experience.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by cybersuebee

I've only ever heard the term used in a good-hearted joking way, and have not used it since I became aware that it has a derogotory connotation to some. However, why do we assume that it's used only in reference to women. I've heard it used to differenciate heterosexuals from homosexuals - no reference to gender that I'm aware of.

Right. This is the only way that I have heard the term used - as a synonmyn for heterosexual. Whether one actually had children had nothing to do with the definition of the term. However, I will say that I have only used the word used by a couple of people, once or twice, quite a number of years ago.

No matter how the term is used, it is insulting and hurtful to others (any others). It shouldn't be used.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

It's a damn good thang I don't and have never listened to shit like that..

It may have been shoved down my face by things around me, it just did not ring true for ME.

I am the bomb fucking diggity cause I am a single mom, have been, and still don't need no damn body as I continue to do so.

I was taught I can do anything on my own.

[Spirit Dancer]

I am first a women
foremost a mother
I am a parent
I've been with child
I'm queer
I'm steadfast in my voice and
I'm not nor do I care for the word breeder.

[JustJo]

Well I'm gonna have to change colors here so I can go point to point...because I think you raise some interesting questions...
Let me start first by saying that, as much as I love the warm sentiments of motherhood...I was NOT raised to be a mother. I was raised by a narcissist who made it very clear to me from a very young age that motherhood ruined her life, her future and her happiness. I was raised to believe that motherhood was one step above slavery, and the last thing in the world I should ever desire.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

20 years ago I would have agreed with you that women were groomed to be mothers primarily to support the status quo. Anymore? No. The largest growing (I believe) stratum of new mothers are older, first time, single mothers - many of whom have decided to stop waiting for Mr. Right and just start their own family on their own terms. I personally know many of women in this cohort - and they are mothering purely for their own reasons and because it's what their own heart desires.

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

Not in my experience.l I am a single mother. I did, eventually and big mistake, marry my son's father for a few years thinking it would be best for my son. No one ever called or treated me like a whore, and I was far from untouchable by men. In fact, I had several volunteers to step into my ready made family. Yes, there are some men who avoid single moms...but honestly, not many.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Acutally, I think women today are measured more by their ability to be a trophy wife than a mother. You don't need breast implants, botox injections and a lifestyle lift to be a mother. But that's what's getting hammered into us now. Again, 20 years ago I would have agreed that a woman's ability to have children was key. Anymore, I think her ability to fit into a size 3 is more important to much of mainstream society.

I think we've gone past the "woman as mother" stage in our culture and moved into "woman as perpetually youthful hottie" instead. I don't see it as an improvement, but no one consulted me.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

I do hear what you're saying Dylan...I just feel like you're talking about a 20 year old dynamic.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer

What I never understood was
why do those who choose not to have children
feel the need to judge those of us who do and
them flame us with those nasty little words.
They made their choice, we made ours and if your
reading this today, thank a mother.

thank a mother for what?

people are so self-righteous about giving birth, i really don't get it: it usually happens by accident and in 99% of cases there is *zero* preparation and planning and all that shit that "the gays" have to go through to acquire a kid.

sorry, i just think you're *really* misguided when you say that everyone childless chooses to be childless.

and really, how can you have this kind of world-view of mothers and women when you appropriate native american culture in that other thread--the two are so hard for me to reconcile.

[Spirit Dancer]

Originally Posted by apretty

thank a mother for what?

people are so self-righteous about giving birth, i really don't get it: it usually happens by accident and in 99% of cases there is *zero* preparation and planning and all that shit that "the gays" have to go through to acquire a kid.

sorry, i just think you're *really* misguided when you say that everyone childless chooses to be childless.

and really, how can you have this kind of world-view of mothers and women when you appropriate native american culture in that other thread--the two are so hard for me to reconcile.

That is not what I said, I said their are those that chose not to and their
are those that cannot for medical reasons, I said my heart broke for those who cannot have children, and if your reading this then someone a woman gave you life.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nat
I think because people without children feel oppressed by those who have them?

I knew two sisters who stopped talking for a whole year because the one with a child told the one without a child that she didn't feel like she was a real woman until she gave birth. So it cuts both ways. It's painful on both sides, I think.

Yes I know that, but was referring to those who made the choice not
to have a child. I feel for those who want and cannot have a child, my heart breaks for them.
__________________I said the red area

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Liam

I think it is heterophobic.

yeah i'm suspicious of hetero (christian families with 2 parents and a minivan/xtra large suv) that haven't done the work (why should they?/they don't have to!) especially the white men who haven't done the work, who think that there is such a thing as hetero-phobia and/or reversed-racism. who are born into their privilege and deny it every day of their lives. call me phobic, but that's kinda *fishy behavior* to me.

[SuperFemme]

i think this is one way that the term separates us as a community.

pitting those w/children against those w/o children.

women are fucking AMAZING by the very virtue of being women. not because they reproduce or not.

[Martina]

i have strong feelings about this even though i have not had a child. i have been dissed on a couple of threads for suggesting that not every parent can have it all -- the career they want and being a good parent. It doesn't always work that way even if it should.

Anyway. Most places in the world, women do not have the choice to not have children. That's a given. That's wrong. BUT it's a separate issue.

Once someone has a child, that is, in my opinion, something to be respected, valued, and supported. If i err, it's on the side of romanticizing the work of parenting and the connection between parent and child. i can not see any excuse for ever denigrating it. It needs to be more respected, more valued in our culture and around the world. Liberation for women is not gotten through undervaluing how most women spend their time.

Most women, no matter how poor, sick, or oppressed, find ways to parent well and have rich and meaningful connections with their children. They invest their lives in their children. Whether they should have had to get pregnant or not, that investment deserves respect. Huge amounts of respect.

i do not think girls should be taught not to want to parent, not to value parenting as a life goal. i think boys should be taught to be more invested in parenting, to think of it as something they should prepare for and imagine and dream of.

People are always going to have babies, and it will be a decades or longer -- probably much longer -- before women on this planet always do so voluntarily.

But devaluing their contributions is devaluing their lives. However else they might have chosen to live, being a mom is the life most are leading. And it's hugely valuable.

To me, it's sacred. However a child came into this world, once she is here, the world must welcome her and honor those who guide her along her way.