"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Diva

I don't think it was directed toward You....NONE of us responded to it. But then, while I have responded to a couple or 3, I haven't responded to everyone who's posted here.

...

You would be correct, as far as I was concerned, it was directed at everyone...

[SuperFemme]

I haven't watched the video.

I read "old terms" as out of date, antiquated and well, old.

I guess perception is very individualized and it was my assumption that this was a *new/different* conversation based on an individuals perception.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Based on a false presumption that some Thread, on another site, suggested that Butch & Femme, are antiquated terms.
I ma not big on trashing through false inference.

Merrick,

I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well.

Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated".
I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue.

I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more.

a

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!

I was reading "antiquated" as "old" or "out of date"

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I was reading "antiquated" as "old" or "out of date"

Ty Medusa

I don't see them as old or outdated,just as terms we use to describe ourselves. There are the other variations of butch and femme, like Stone Butch, Stone Femme, etc but to me those are still adjectives.

[BullDog]

Yes, sorry Medusa for my initial confusion. I wasn't questioning your motives. To me this conversation is a very different topic than the video or other conversation, that was why I was initially confused. But totally get you used it as a jumping off point to start a conversation.

Also seems some confusion on the other site. Stud is not a new term used by a younger generation. It's been around for quite some time.

Anyway, if anyone wants to see Q's video it is very cool. Here is the link to her site:

http://q-roc.tv

The video is at the top of page: Excuse Me Sir: Gender Identity

To me the video is about Studs talking about breaking down gender stereotypes.

EDIT: There is actually more than one video. The one I saw before was part 2 on Stereotypes. Part 3 is at top of page now. Anyway, cool beans more videos for me to watch.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, sorry Medusa for my initial confusion. I wasn't questioning your motives. To me this conversation is a very different topic than the video or other conversation, that was why I was initially confused. But totally get you used it as a jumping off point to start a conversation.

Also seems some confusion on the other site. Stud is not a new term used by a younger generation. It's been around for quite some time.

Anyway, if anyone wants to see Q's video it is very cool. Here is the link to her site:

http://q-roc.tv

The video is at the top of page: Excuse Me Sir: Gender Identity

To me the video is about Studs talking about breaking down gender stereotypes.

I agree Stud is not a new term and has been used since at least the 70s.
It is also not a term specific to POC.
Love the video!

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Right. The hubris of the "youth scene" (not speaking to you directly, Selenay - merely borrowing your term). What they determine in the now, is the forever shall be.

Thankfully, that's not true.

For if that were true, we would no longer listen to classical music or value certain forms of art.

Because there is nothing new under the sun, and everything old becomes new again, it's safe to assume that just because one generation doesn't use or relate to certain terms that they will "die." They may be out of mode for a certain age group, but that hardly heralds death.

New York is ahead of the curve in most things, additionally there is enormous racial diversity so POC terms for identity are more likely to be adopted and heard. But that while young queers in the 5 boroughs (and parts of Jersey, yo) might not be identifying as butch or femme, there is the great American hinterland still to consider. I doubt there will be sweeping change in which the terms butch and femme cease to exist. I believe, as SuperFemme stated, that there is room for all.

If, by process of cultural evolution butch and femme get put on the shelf (until they make a comeback with the third wave of hippie fashion), I would hope that at least it is done with respect to the space they carved to make way for that evolution, and the relative freedom young queers in America experience.

I think these explorations and deconstructions are part of the process of our queer evolution, but to be dismissive of one's history and those who came before is short-sighted and arrogant.

Still, I disbelieve in the demise. If the term doesn't fit, don't wear it.

Mister Bent,

Your last statement is how I look at life. If it doesn't fit you, then please don't wear it or tell me that I shouldn't. This is not to disparage anyone's posts. Merely my rule of thumb. If there were a third gender identity that was as easy to use as the term 'butch', I would use it. Butch works for me for now.

Kosmo

[Duchess]

Originally Posted by Diva

OMG this just made me giggle.......

It's not dead yet because I am still alive........and THEN, when I am dead, You can personally try and pry my Femme Papers out of my cold, dead, finely manicured fingers.........


......but not until then, little whippersnapper! <~ ~ I'm WINKING, everyone!

Thank you Miss D. I realize that Butch/Femme can be a bit vague because of the broad range of identifications. However, I'm very proud of the terms. Knowing the origin makes me feel so thankful for those that fought for our place in this world.

I wear my Femme handbag with much pride.

Duchess

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* am going to post from my personal space and my personal take and the way I am in this world.. My femme gender presentation may fall under a new type of femme or a new sort of femme, it does not nor will it ever fall on the antiquated description of femme.. I won't ever be the one who wears the apron, does the high heels and make up at all times, nor is willing to not have a Dominant role in *my* relationship, let me add I do not define femme, as skirt wearing, cooking in the kitchen following 3 steps behind they butch... *I* know I am different than some femmes, not so different from others.. I am comfortable with the lack of dresses, domestication I have.. I like being in charge, I am extremely proud of who I am as a Femme Leather Daddy to downright giddy at the thought of my cock...

*This* is where I think that for me, I get put into a different box of femme or my gender is dismissed because I am not a feminine as others.. *I* personally do not buy to this ideal..

If we look back at the antiquated history of butch femme, you have to know the femme was the power, she was the one who worked, she was the one who gave a safe haven to her counterpart.. Butch.. Who could not like herself go as easily into the workforce and not stand blend in as much as their femme counterparts...

*I* embrace femme, my gender but not by others definitions of it, not because of what I wear or who I am with.. I am femme without butch I am femme foremost...

Queer Leather Femme Daddy, it may not *fit* into what others may define femme as, or claim that my kind of femme is certainly and will not fall upon old school standards..

I am ok with that... I am comfortable and know I have power, being the femme that I am...

I hope this late night rant made sense

[Bit]

There is no one right way to be Femme, whether it's an adjective or a noun... there's just no one right way.

I'll tell you, Snow, I have seen people that I absolutely adored as sister Femmes decide they absolutely must not actually BE Femmes because they were so dominant. I always wish that I could point to you as a Femme who is dominant when it happens... except that they don't know you at all so it wouldn't make a difference. *wry shrug*

[Boots13]

How fascinating is this !

Kind of like petri dish fascinating...No, I'm not being snarky, I really want to look at this.

If Selly is 20-ish I'd wager she has her ear to the ground in her age group and social
circles. And if Butch/Femme is no longer representative for a younger generation, the
words very well may become a thing of the past, at least in her experience. I think its
fascinating to know.

It doesnt mean I'll be dropping my identity and I still use Butch/Femme as a jumping off point.
But if the evolution of terms and identification have strayed away from Butch/Femme
"labels" (floabw) then I wonder where our youth is headed !
And I'm not being contrite or when I say I'm excited to see a new generation embrace
their identities in their own way. Isnt that how we evolve?

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[PapaC]

I think Selly's original post and SassyLeo's post are both on point.

I've noticed this trend in Canada as well. But then, I'm of the opinion that "butch" and "femme" have *never* been terms that have been popular in the real-time queer connections that I've had over the years, and my travels and living situations have spanned across Canada in 3 major regional areas and of course, San Francisco.

The only 'real time' community off the internet where there is an abundance of butches and femmes that I've ever participated in is in San Francisco. Who do we have to thank for that? Community organizers. (nodding in Toughy's direction)... I know there's a lot happening in NY as well. How? oh yeah... *community organizers*

But apart from pockets of online communities and some real time community organizers in large urban areas, is "Butch" and "Femme" known or used terms? Frankly folks, I don't think I've *ever* lived (and lived as queer) where Butch and Femme were actually "popular" terms.

They are however, I believe: timeless

A 20-something transman when I asked his observations about the youth culture, he acknowledged that many many MANY have just sorta honed in on 'genderqueer' or 'queer' (he almost made it sound the same - should note that).... and he laughingly said.. "it kinda poses an interesting dilemma for t-guys"

it just might.

And call me crazy, but a part of me looks at "genderqueer" and thinks "oh, that's kinda like being andro" ....only 'cooler' ... more 'updated'

words words words words...

I dunno, I'm tired. when I get fed up with nomenclature discussion, I just sometimes sit back and think "now, how would I explain THAT to my relatives in Europe?"

Another question I have... did every 'lesbian' call themselves a 'lesbian' from the dawning of the english language?

By all accounts, if you look at the fact that the english language is what.... 1000 years old (give or take), for the last 1000 years, have we been hearing the term 'lesbian' to describe two women in love?

From where I'm sitting, seems to me if we look at it that way, "lesbian" as a term is brand spanking new...

just some thoughts.

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Merrick,

I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well.

Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated".
I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue.

I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more.

a

1 - I didn't insist any such thing. I said what I said, and you quoted, there was no "echo" within, I can't stop you from adding something in, but thats your add, not mine.
As you your self keep saying, there was a false inference, the motivation is your business, I didn't presume one.
2- The point of using another site, as a jumping off point for a Thread, is where you lose me. There was no need. But if you absolutely had to then an actual reading of the opening post, beyond the Title, seems a must do , in my book. If you had done so, then no mix up of words, juxtopositioning one for the other, would have occurred because the actual subject had nothing to do with either word.
3- Personally, I have always thought it a good rule, to not bring in outside sites. Kind of like talking about someone who isn't there. Not a good idea
You have a nice site here, wouldn't it be cool, if it survived on its own merit, without constant references to "other' sites.
As the owner, you set the standard. Like it o r not, that's how it goes...

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

1 - I didn't insist any such thing. I said what I said, and you quoted, there was no "echo" within, I can't stop you from adding something in, but thats your add, not mine.
As you your self keep saying, there was a false inference, the motivation is your business, I didn't presume one.
2- The point of using another site, as a jumping off point for a Thread, is where you lose me. There was no need. But if you absolutely had to then an actual reading of the opening post, beyond the Title, seems a must do , in my book. If you had done so, then no mix up of words, juxtopositioning one for the other, would have occurred because the actual subject had nothing to do with either word.
3- Personally, I have always thought it a good rule, to not bring in outside sites. Kind of like talking about someone who isn't there. Not a good idea
You have a nice site here, wouldn't it be cool, if it survived on its own merit, without constant references to "other' sites.
As the owner, you set the standard. Like it o r not, that's how it goes...

1. You insist my intent by saying that I am "trashing" another site. If you werent insisting that I had a nefarious intent, you would have simply said that I had "referred" to another site.

2. *YOU* dont see a need for it, *I* do. And here again, I dont *have* to do anything as in "must do" because again, my read was my own, my read of the title of the thread and subsequent posts was the jumping off point.

3. Not bringing in outside sites is all well and good but its kinda difficult when we *share* a membership and a community. If we cant ever discuss anything that has ever been discussed on another site then that leaves us with our thumb up our asses considering that there are...oh, I dunno...a BAZILLION threads elsewhere. Again, there seems to be an issue for you with seeing intent that simply *isnt* there. That's your issue, not mine.

And yes, *we* do have a nice site here. A great one actually. Regardless of what you see happening here, this site IS surviving on its own merit, hence over 400 members in less than a month. I dont know where you are seeing "constant" references to another site (but then again, if you are looking for something you might be super myopic about it), but the fact of reality is that there WILL be referenced conversations here. I have no problem with it. Im not going to start policing people, what they say, or where they get their ideas for conversation.

Im also not going to give any more energy to what I feel has personal overtones for you. It's a waste of my time, and yours.
And now, since you "reminded" me that I must "set the standard" as the owner of this site, Im going to do just that and stop giving energy to this circular conversation.

[PapaC]

Sure, and sometimes... all we have are first impressions to go on.
And sometime it's just the delivery.

As for sharing of information on terms and definitions... I scraped around the internet ALL night to get some direction on some coding I had to do on a spreadsheet, and went to at least 3 different sites to get some instruction. Sometimes references matter, sometimes subject material is going to repeat itself on another site.

Maybe not completely analogous to this situation, but I know how I *felt* when I first saw the phrase 'old terms' and I didn't particularly like how it felt for me.

Finally... are refugees from trouble countries forbidden to talk of their experiences in the new country?

...just some drive by thoughts from one of those ugly posters who skims too much for my own good, and tends to rely on titles to capture my interest.

[NJFemmie]

Hmmm...

Are they antiquated terms? hmm .. I don't know. But I also don't see where those terms will be disappearing any time soon either. But then again, I am not some 20-year old, and tend to hold on to terms that might be a bit antiquated to begin with.

I'm not a politically-correct ID junkie either. I kind of believe in "be who you are", and in my mind, won't slap any particular label on anyone. They (labels) are, and always have been, IMO, too general and vague for the uniqueness of every individual. On the flip side of that - I would not be dismissive to their own label/ID/what-have-you either.

On a personal standpoint, I only label my myself to the most basic degree. If anyone wants to know WHO I am, well, they'll soon find that the label itself doesn't "be all to end all".

[Unndunn]

I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees.

I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members.

My 19 year old niece has a lot of different terms for things than I do. When I like something I say it's cool. When she likes something it's "sick." We both know we're talking about the same emotion, but we are using different words to describe it. Younger people and others with different reference points, such as urban people, and/or poc use a lot of different, new terms. I need to know what those terms mean so that I'm able to communicate effectively, but those terms don't change who I am. How would losing myself or denying my identity and worth really be a good thing for any community?

I'm a butch and that's not going to change. It's the responsibility of all people, from all points of reference to seek out and learn about how others feel and identify. It's not a one way street in either direction.

Unn/the 40+ year old butch from CT

[Words]

IF Dusa were hell bent on 'trashing' B/F.com, then I'm sure that she is more than capable of coming up with something far more damning than what she supposedly came up with here.

Not being confrontational, simply stating what, to me, seems fairly obvious.

Words