What does the "B-F Dynamic" mean to you?

[Strappie]

SuperFemme.....

Make me smile. Lavish me in your laughter. Split open your pain and bleed on me. Hold me whilst I bleed on you. Make me feel safe in a way that only you can. Surrender and let me love you....

Because nobody knows how many licks it takes to get to the center. Of anything.


Well said!!!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Like how do you go about explaining to someone new that you'd like to date what your preferences are in sex, in life, in a relationship? Those are some questions that come up.

oh! see that's much easier for me to answer than the word "dynamic" for me.

muuuuuuuuuuch easier lol

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

oh! see that's much easier for me to answer than the word "dynamic" for me.

muuuuuuuuuuch easier lol

see I can't always get my point across from what it is I'm thinking.. lol

[NJFemmie]

I am still sitting with this question, because I really am not sure what the b/f dynamic (literally) means to me anymore. I am in a LTR that is not comprised of a b/f dynamic - yet, I find the ying/yang, back-forth, tidal, mixing and moving of "energies" is more or less the same as when I was in them. I certainly don't dismiss it or condemn it - because the reality is, if I were to be single, there would still be the attraction - but in my case, it boils down to:

I still am of the opinion that it's because of what/whom I'm attracted to, not the actual relationship dance, that's the distinction.

hmmm ....

[UofMfan]

I got caught up in the arcade and the MA elections so I forgot to reply to this post until now.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Oddly, I thought HB was saying the same thing as you UofM...

Of course I guess it is open to self interpretation. I think the one point we can all agree on is that the B/F dynamic works in our lives in very individualized ways. Snowflakes. No two are alike. It is always snowing on the Planet, no?

It is open to interpretation, as for me, the mere mention that it is not abut those things to HB simply implies that it comes down to those very same things, then what it came down to was sex. Again, to me this implies that the dynamic is about those things. HB simply stated that in HER relationship it wasn't about opening doors and such, but it is inferred that perhaps in another relationship it would be. I am sorry, I am a language geek and as such would not want language to diminish a dynamic that I hold so dear to my heart.

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

Yeah, so I'm confused because I too thought that was what honeybarbara was trying to impart ... that those particular things don't define the dynamic for her - (but then again, who's to say it doesn't for someone else...)

Interpretation is a slippery little sucker.

Again interpretation, read her post again and perhaps you can see what I saw, then again, perhaps not. I am not arguing with anyone here, I am stating my opinion based on my interpretation of her post. Of course, my interpretation is based not only on the language used but on the things that were implied by said usage.

Originally Posted by amiyesiam

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.

You obviously misinterpreted my post! Goodness, I feel as if I am speaking a different language. I will stick with the arcade, as I feel my style of communication is not understood here. Ami, I suggest you read my post again, then you may see how I may feel a little frustrated here.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

thanks yes, that's what I ment. I see many people not into butch-femme dynamic opening doors, paying for meals, cleaning the house etc. Things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" (aka traditional 50's middle america stuff. That's not judgement by the way for those who dig it). That's not it for me *because* my partner and I don't do gender division of things. Butches take out the trash/femmes wash the dishes. That kind of thing. Nor is it "butch manners" because she doesn't have any. She spoils me, but not in any way that I don't see other couples doing for each other in non-butch-femme ID'd couples.

SO I can't say, for me, that butch-femme dynamic is about anything else but sex.

For someone else, that may be absurd. But since I can't point at my partner and say "oh it's cause she treats me with such care and she's such a gentleman..." cause, y'know, butch-femme doesn't have the corner on that. i've met a ton of non ID's and femmes I enjoy being spoiled and treated sweetly by in a... way that I used to think only butches did.

So I can't nail it to anything but the brass knobs, for me.

I have highlighted exactly why I responded the way I did to begin with. It still makes my heart ache and now maybe even my stomach turn. I will not try to explain it any further as I feel that I will be misunderstood, once more. it is difficult to discuss the BF dynamic with those who truly do not understand it and/or live it as I do.

Originally Posted by Strappie

Not at all UofMfan... I mostly just want to know how you all explain the dynamic.

Thanks for explaining strappie. I would love to do so but the dynamic is complex and very personal. You live it, feel it, breath it, it comes down to so much that is unexplainable. Perhaps later, when I feel less frustrated.

I want to thank those who sent reps You understood me!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I have highlighted exactly why I responded the way I did to begin with. It still makes my heart ache and now maybe even my stomach turn. I will not try to explain it any further as I feel that I will be misunderstood, once more. it is difficult to discuss the BF dynamic with those who truly do not understand it and/or live it as I do.

ok look. many people outside of gender ID land (as in those who ID as butch or femme) it see it the way I explained, about "one person is the boy and one person is the girl" Not my problem or issue that others see my relationship that way. It's not how I live, nor does it affect me.

to make myself absolutely clear and differentiate I wanted people to understand that those who *may* see *thier* dynamic as being about traditional roles, is fine by me jack. I personally don't see MY personal happiness and brand of how I do things being about their way of life either. I know how important yradtional roles are to *some* people. god I can't believe I'm explaining this...

That you don't see your own "dynamic" is about who does what: I'm glad, in my judgey life, no one should see as role-only, personnal judgement (and it's damn rare anyone would do that, even those who are old school wouldn't see it that way) It should be about - in my op - how you get along.

I was pointing out that people in other kinds of relationships all do the same thing as Butch-femme people. Because there are butch-femme people , for some reason, who don't seem to know that.

you wanna make this into connoted inferences in your own brain (mistaken interpretation) of my own way of being in my realtionships and what makes me happy and how your interpretation of my text makes you personally *ill* and *sad*.... dude, completely and utterly your own world of pain. seriously. I won't have nothing doing with that.

is your personal problem. I've already attempted explanation.

and as a point of irritation, I don't care how many people have thanked you for your point of view in you being "right" about misinterpreting my post. how PA is that? It's still wrong. And it's your problem

[NJFemmie]

But .... there are some people who consider the things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" to be a big part of it for them. In fact, I know (and have been with butches) who demand it. I personally, don't agree with those things ... in fact, I am historically known to defy anything considered traditional 50's middle america/stereotypical butch/femme stuff. I also get that it makes your heart ache.

Perhaps the lack of information provided after that statement left it open for misunderstanding.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

But .... there are some people who consider the things that are often touted as a "butch-femme dynamic" to be a big part of it for them. In fact, I know (and have been with butches) who demand it. I personally, don't agree with those things ... in fact, I am historically known to defy anything considered traditional 50's middle america/stereotypical butch/femme stuff. I also get that it makes your heart ache.

Perhaps the lack of information provided after that statement left it open for misunderstanding.

then that's what they want in a partner. they want a partner who enjoys their need to do X.

but I know butch-butch couples and femme-femme couples, who do the same thing. One person likes to mow the lawn, pay the rent, fix the car, open doors, get chairs.

so, if butch-butch and femme-femme do it, how is that all about the butch-femme dynamic, then? It's not. it's personal preference.

you see what I'm saying?

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

then that's what they want in a partner. they want a partner who enjoys their need to do X.

but I know butch-butch couples and femme-femme couples, who do the same thing. One person likes to mow the lawn, pay the rent, fix the car, open doors, get chairs.

so, if butch-butch and femme-femme do it, how is that all about the butch-femme dynamic, then? It's not. it's personal preference.

you see what I'm saying?

I totally get you. Seriously.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

then that's what they want in a partner. they want a partner who enjoys their need to do X.

but I know butch-butch couples and femme-femme couples, who do the same thing. One person likes to mow the lawn, pay the rent, fix the car, open doors, get chairs.

so, if butch-butch and femme-femme do it, how is that all about the butch-femme dynamic, then? It's not. it's personal preference.

you see what I'm saying?

I do!!!


I agree that "energy" is a huge factor in the b-f tango, but submit that it is specifically "butch" energy drawn toward "femme" energy.

[labete]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Energy is probably the best identifier for this dynamic for me as well. Through the years, terms and phrases and words have floated around to describe the B-F dynamic....yin/yang.....the dance....complementary energies....etc.

I think they are all correct. Each partnering is individual and rarely follows the exact same parameters. I know I have it when I feel it. It's like a strong wind blowing through a valley of trees. Some days I'm the trees. Some days I'm the wind. But there is always that syncopation; that rhythm of movement.

This is largely how I feel about it, too. Complementary energies that, for me, give a kind of balance that works for me and reinforces my energy. I find that I naturally seek a kind of balance, and if the person I'm with is too much like me, my balance can be thrown off.

When I had my first female lover, she was very feminine, and I found myself feeling the yin side of me rise more, which (for me, myself, and I, not remotely speaking for anyone else here) subdued my yang in a way that makes me feel less true to myself. I don't like that feeling.

It's not about who opens the door or takes out the trash or cooks or washes, although such acts can be symbolic of the energy exchange if they are meaningful to the people engaging in them. It's about finding someone whose energies balance mine in a way that supports me being true to myself. For me, that means someone whose yin is more prevalent than their yang, and I find that in butches.

[imperfect_cupcake]

lol completely agree but my personal preference for saying that is "I prefer masculine/boyish read women" cause if you are talking to people who don't do butch-femme the whole "energy thing" isn't going to be very helpful as it's not entirely descriptive.

and what's really important, the key thing, for me is that sexually they have a dick and a snatch. that's non-negotiable. it won't work if that's not there.

all of the rest? is personality and interaction and how we work as two people. People vary so much in what's important to them and how they work that I can't assign "I like butches cuz they ____." Cause they don't. Not all of them. And probably only a certain percent do.

And that's REALLY apparent when you go to different countries and see how they express their feminine and masculine grooves.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

You see, this is the same as trying to say that I am butch because my hair is short and I wear masculine clothes. The dynamic, as well as my gender identity run much deeper than that. This is of course, my opinion.

I have reread this. I think we are coming to the same point from different sides. My point and some others point is exactly the same. The dance/the energy/ etc is much more than some outward signs.

Originally Posted by amiyesiam

Not how I took her post. The point is to move away from steriotyping folks.
Just cause of how you dress or do your hair has not a lot to do with how you ID. Have you ever stopped to notice how many straight women wear their hair very short? Jeans and tee shirts are worn by all kinds of people.

who opens doors isn't a butch or femme thing.

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I got caught up in the arcade and the MA elections so I forgot to reply to this post until now.



It is open to interpretation, as for me, the mere mention that it is not abut those things to HB simply implies that it comes down to those very same things, then what it came down to was sex. Again, to me this implies that the dynamic is about those things. HB simply stated that in HER relationship it wasn't about opening doors and such, but it is inferred that perhaps in another relationship it would be. I am sorry, I am a language geek and as such would not want language to diminish a dynamic that I hold so dear to my heart.

Language is what we use to communicate. Language isn't always able to convey the emotions fully. I am femme my husband butch. I also don't want that dynamic diminished. But in cherishing what I hold dear I personally dont want to diminish others dynamic.



Again interpretation, read her post again and perhaps you can see what I saw, then again, perhaps not. I am not arguing with anyone here, I am stating my opinion based on my interpretation of her post. Of course, my interpretation is based not only on the language used but on the things that were implied by said usage.



You obviously misinterpreted my post! Goodness, I feel as if I am speaking a different language. I will stick with the arcade, as I feel my style of communication is not understood here. Ami, I suggest you read my post again, then you may see how I may feel a little frustrated here.



I have highlighted exactly why I responded the way I did to begin with. It still makes my heart ache and now maybe even my stomach turn. I will not try to explain it any further as I feel that I will be misunderstood, once more. it is difficult to discuss the BF dynamic with those who truly do not understand it and/or live it as I do.



Honestly, in no way being disrespectful, what this comes across as saying is:
I feel and experiece the BF dynamic in a way others do not (perhaps more strongly, more deeply) I can not bare to discuss this with those who do not understand.
Again, honestly, that might fly other places, but we are on a BF site, full of BF people, all of whom care very very deeply about BF dynamics.
If you chose to leave fine do so. But don't blame me or anyone else.
Also it seems to me that the folks in here were/are willing to discuss this with everyone. No one has to agree but we can all learn



Thanks for explaining strappie. I would love to do so but the dynamic is complex and very personal. You live it, feel it, breath it, it comes down to so much that is unexplainable. Perhaps later, when I feel less frustrated.

I want to thank those who sent reps You understood me!

I also understood you.
As a couple our BF dynamic is joyously wonderful. That is why we took the time to go to Canada and get married.
I think what I want to say is that while this is special for me other types of relationships also experience this. The joy of finding the right person is in fact a beautiful thing, be they straight, gay, lesbian, trans, bi etc.
I can not say BF is "THE Best" I can only say that it is "The Best" for butches and femmes.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

Thanks for explaining strappie. I would love to do so but the dynamic is complex and very personal. You live it, feel it, breath it, it comes down to so much that is unexplainable. Perhaps later, when I feel less frustrated.

I want to thank those who sent reps You understood me!

Isn't this thread called "What does the B/F dynamic mean to you"?

I myself am frustrated that you have come in here being sad and ill about those of us willing to share, yet you never speak to the OP's question. Because I am going to go out on a limb and say that it is very personal and complex to everyone.

Seeing things more than one way isn't a personal attack. It is a discussion. I thought. So I hope you do come back and share.

[SuperFemme]

I would also like to add that some of the things HB mentioned are very important to some B/F folks. Poke around and you'll find many *old school* butches and femmes. They are just as fabulous as any of us I think.

I think a giant leap was made in suggesting that it *comes down* to open doors. Like that is the defining thing that makes any relationship or is the top rung in the ladder of B/F dynamics.

But you cannot deny that it is important to some. Doing so would erase and minimize those who DO find opening doors a very complex and personal part of their dynamic.

[imperfect_cupcake]

But you cannot deny that it is important to some.

I didn't though. and yes, people want their partner liking that they do X (whatever x is in terms of how they and their potential/present matches work).

aren't we all that way? every last person on the planet? have some things that we need in our relationships because of the way we work?

My partner and I make a *great* team. things she can't do, I can. Things I'm shit at, she's well versed in. I need that, personally, in a partner. Someone very complimentary to where I lack, they compliment. Instead of compete -though we both get that way when we ride our bikes.

I get it.

edit to add... I see you meant general you, I think now, not me specifically. lol sorry.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Jess

I do!!!


I agree that "energy" is a huge factor in the b-f tango, but submit that it is specifically "butch" energy drawn toward "femme" energy.

And vise versa!

Originally Posted by labete

This is largely how I feel about it, too. Complementary energies that, for me, give a kind of balance that works for me and reinforces my energy. I find that I naturally seek a kind of balance, and if the person I'm with is too much like me, my balance can be thrown off.

When I had my first female lover, she was very feminine, and I found myself feeling the yin side of me rise more, which (for me, myself, and I, not remotely speaking for anyone else here) subdued my yang in a way that makes me feel less true to myself. I don't like that feeling.

Yes, yes, YES! The more feminine my partner was, the more masculine (in term of energies...even though my dress and mannerisms did not change) I felt and I felt I lost that connection to my yang. I like my yang and I didn't like the feeling that that situation gave me. I relate to this part very much.

It's not about who opens the door or takes out the trash or cooks or washes, although such acts can be symbolic of the energy exchange if they are meaningful to the people engaging in them. It's about finding someone whose energies balance mine in a way that supports me being true to myself. For me, that means someone whose yin is more prevalent than their yang, and I find that in butches.

Eloquently stated, labete, and I find that that is how I function best in a relationship as well.

[Dragonfly]

What does it mean to me personally....

Well, I had lived my life doing things the easy way from age 17 to 30. I knew I liked women, and I knew I was not a typical feminine woman. But I could live inside the hetero world raising my kids without fear of an abusive person taking my daughter away from me. Until 2006, when I met a butch Id'ed (female pronoun) lesbian woman. But before her, my girlfriends were loved and I never had multiple girlfriends at the same time. They all had Id'ed bisexual like I did. Comittment to a woman meant sharing her with her guy for me back then. I had realized I wasn't bi a few years before meeting my first butch but had not been out looking for someone new. Hehe we happened to come across each other on myspace and since we had a mutual friend, my ex girlfriend's brother was good friends with her.... I met her in real world. Took along Foo of course, just in case you know. I was surprised she liked me and vice versa.

I had never been attracted to a butch woman before her and came to online community to learn more about it. In the process I began to learn about myself. I had been described as butch for a long time. Tomboy is a word I struggle with and debate using for myself around here, but in the hetero world it was part of my ID and butch was used to describe me by those around me. I am still not able to say I am one or the other, Butch or Femme. Everyone's interpretation is about energy and sexual tastes. I can't read myself confidently that it is accurate compared to other's. I am pretty versatile sexually and maybe kinky so that makes it more confusing. It is all just so confusing for me still after 4 years. I only know I belong here because I am sexually attracted to the people who belong here.

Some days I just want to start a vote thread and get everyone to weigh in and name me so that I can stop being afraid of being judged as NOT one or the other. Oh yeah I am pretty messed up.

It's like, if I ID as butch and hit it off with someone who is only attracted to butch ... and then they meet me and are angry or disappointed that my "energy" they percieve doesn't match what I portray myself to be. Will they dislike me wearing make up? Will they have expectations sexually that they do not like to reciprocate?

Or if I say I ID as femme and a butch and I hit it off... will they meet me and feel mislead because I wear men's clothes a lot and do not look like what they find attractive ABOUT femmes? Will they be like one of my experiences and (pressure me) want me to present myself more feminine in appearance? Will they let me do the sexual things I enjoy doing with my lover... or only want to do them to me?

Yes all of those things are subject to individual people not the ID's. Yes they are stereotypical. No I dont think of butch and femme as sexual acts but as gender Id. Yes, some people do think of them as sexuality and as what happens in bed. Am I confused by ALL of this? Yes.

But the dynamic itself DRAWS me in. I don't feel like this about any other lesbian related community. Here I feel free to be me, whoever that is.... to figure it all out, and to know that there are people like me that ID as many different things in the community.

Plus, no one here will think that wearing men's clothes means I want to be a man or am feeding into mysogyny against the equality of women by embracing my masculinity. I am not asserting my misguided superiority needs and am proud to be a woman and to have feminine things about me too. I just never let people put me into a box of anything woman are "supposed to" and are "not supposed to" be, do, say, or dress like. I resisted being oppressed and that has nothing to do with the butch femme dynamic except that the dynamic to me is the embodiment of that resistance. No matter what I ID as, butch or femme.

Thanks for being community in the best sense of the word.

[Martina]

The dynamic happens for me when a butch and i read each other as butch and femme. It may have a sexual feel or not. But it always implies mutual recognition and respect. It means we know something about one another. To be recognized as a femme in a world where i am read as straight, to have someone understand that, to know that, in principal, the person finds that desirable -- that is a fine thing. Whether they open doors or whatever is irrelevant. Sometimes i get a zing out of that stuff, sometimes not.

Outright disrespect from a butch (for no reason) does hurt a little more than asshat behavior from someone else. i think it's because there is supposed to be a social contract between us as butches and femmes. We know each other for an important part of who we are, and we are supposed to honor that.

Sexually, i sleep with people who make me feel MORE like a woman. There are femmes who can do that. i have been with butches and femmes who bring out the boy in me. i like the boy, but not in bed.

[MainelyButch]

Dragonfly, I really got alot out of what you said here, this is pretty broad conversation, and one that seems to be happening alot lately within our realm. It's very hard to explain the "butch-femme dynamic" I think, and very hard to explain how it incorporates into one's life...at least I find this to be the case with me. People ask what makes me butch...well I never thought about it until all these labels started to pop up in the culture...which I think was perhaps brought on the the invention of our internet communications and connections. Prior to that I never gave it much thought personally. But when you are behind a screen and trying to describe yourself, it's easier for me to just say "hey, I'm butch...pretty stereotypically so" but I didn't do much to "make" myself butch, it just turned out that way. I obviously have more male traits dominating my personality and physical looks than I do female. And in today's world they call that "butch" I guess! Anyway, I like who I am, I enjoy being butch as it's just my natural state of being. And this particular butch enjoys dating femmes and enjoys the b-f "dynamic"....or as I rather call it ...the "discussion or the dance".

Thanks for that piece of writing Dragonfly, got me to thinking for sure!