Obama's Health Care Overhaul: Your Opinions

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Jess,

I suspect you havent seen the particulars because they have yet to be worked out. As with most big legislation....the idea is in the bill, the particulars are a whole different ball game.

Here in Mass with our mandatory health insurance, you are penalized, this year, at approx $1,100 if you are not in one the exclusion categories. If you are without insurance and seek medical care, you are billed for the cost of the care provided.

Each year the penalty increases.

Here, I have found, the subsidized insurance is a heck of a lot cheaper than private insurance even tho the coverage is a little less and there are co-pays for everything including hospitalization.

If memory serves, Canadian health care is not totally free i.e there are some minimal copays.

I would love to see a socialized system of health care in this country. Aside from getting care when it is needed, there would be greater flexibility in employment. How many of us have turned down jobs we want because the health care benefits were subpar?

But the socialized plans are not without pitfalls that are incongruent to the American lifestyle. In socialized medicine, you get good and timely primary care but there are waiting lists for specialists and surgery. Americans wait???
And there are some exclusions i.e. if over a certain age, they will not do certain types of care like dialysis. These vary from country to country.

Maybe this will be a stepping stone to something new and different and more cost efficient.

Canadian Health Care

We don't have co-pays.

It isn't *free* b/c we all pay into it. We just don't pay anything at the point of service.

From the above link:

Public health care is governed by the Canada Health Act. It's designed to make sure that all eligible people in the country have reasonable access to insured health services on a prepaid basis, without direct charges at the point of service.

Simply put, if you break your leg chasing the Canadian dream, you have the right to get fixed up without opening your wallet – except to pull out your provincial health insurance card.

The act is also designed to make sure that the delivery of health care is pretty consistent across the country. Ottawa has found that the best way to do that is by attaching conditions to the cash it transfers to the provinces to cover health care.

Among those conditions are that health care must be:

Portable.
Universal.
Accessible.
Free from extra charges (for insured services).
By portable, Ottawa means if you move from one province or territory to another, you won't lose your coverage. This doesn't mean you can go looking for health services in another province or country because the waiting list at home is too long for your liking. It does, however, mean that your out-of-province in-laws will be covered if they suddenly fall sick while on their annual visit.

Under the universality criterion, all insured residents of a province or territory must be entitled to the insured health services provided by the provincial or territorial health care insurance plan. Doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. You can't buy your way to the front of the line.

By accessible, the CHA means "insured persons in a province or territory have reasonable access to insured hospital, medical and surgical-dental services on uniform terms and conditions, unprecluded or unimpeded, either directly or indirectly, by charges [user charges or extra-billing] or other means [e.g., discrimination on the basis of age, health status or financial circumstances]."


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Another tidbit: Through all entities in its public-private system, the U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation in the world, but is the only wealthy industrialized country in the world that lacks some form of universal health care.

One More Interesting Article: U.S. health care lies about Canada

[key]

It's my understanding that the system in Canada is based on the US Medicare system. Do you Canadians know if this is true?

Also, when Taiwan and South Korea went shopping around the planet for the best system to replicate in their country guess which system they chose? yep, you go it, the US Medicare system. So sad that other countries can see how great our single payer system is and want to use it as a model for their country, yet we can not simply extend this to all of our citizens.

We are one twisted country.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by casey35

Well let see, we have people who dont work they dont want to work so us tax payer pay their bills. We have those who dont want to take their kids to the doctor they would just perfer to take them to the e r. We have those who are druggies that we pay for. You know what i am one who is tired of paying for those who cant get off their ass and work.

I think I understand where Casey is coming from. Our country was founded on self reliance and it served us well for a long time.

Unfortunately our society has become much more complex over time and general taxes, spread amongst all, have been paying for things we deemed are beneficial to most i.e. property taxes pay for school systems, so even those of us without kids have been footing the bill for those that do for a long time.

We tend to forget that we, as individuals, benefit in many ways from generalized taxes.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by key

It's my understanding that the system in Canada is based on the US Medicare system. Do you Canadians know if this is true?

Also, when Taiwan and South Korea went shopping around the planet for the best system to replicate in their country guess which system they chose? yep, you go it, the US Medicare system. So sad that other countries can see how great our single payer system is and want to use it as a model for their country, yet we can not simply extend this to all of our citizens.

We are one twisted country.

From what I read, and even on the gov't website, Medicare is actually the unofficial name for our publicly funded universal health care system. It is governed by the Canada Health Care Act..."Framed by the Canada Health Act, the principles governing our health care system are symbols of the underlying Canadian values of equity and solidarity."

Canada's Health Care System (Medicare)

Wiki:
Medicare (French: assurance-maladie) is the unofficial name for Canada's publicly funded universal health insurance system[1]. The formal terminology for the insurance system is provided by the Canada Health Act and the health insurance legislation of the individual provinces and territories.
Under the terms of the Canada Health Act, all "insured persons" (basically, legal residents of Canada, including permanent residents) are entitled to receive "insured services" without copayment. Such services are defined as medically necessary services if provided in hospital, or by 'practitioners' (usually physicians).[2] Approximately 70% of Canadian health expenditures come from public sources, with the rest paid privately (both through private insurance, and through out-of-pocket payments). The extent of public financing varies considerably across services. For example, approximately 99% of physician services, and 90% of hospital care, are paid by publicly funded sources, whereas almost all dental care is paid for privately.[3] Most doctors are self-employed private entities.

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Note: When I wrote no co-payments, I meant we don't pay out of pocket for doctor visits/surgeries. We do pay minimal out of pocket for Prescriptions. (I've never paid more than five dollars for any prescription). Rx, dental, vision is usually covered via employer.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by key

It's my understanding that the system in Canada is based on the US Medicare system. Do you Canadians know if this is true?

I don't believe it was but they were created within a year of each other so I wouldn't be surprised if there were discussions between the two countries. What I think is important to add to the discussion is that while Canadians pay for health insurance through taxes, as others have stated, and there are limited to no co-pays (there are some prescription co-pays but that's a different from all the doc visits/hospital/etc. and it varies from province to province), because the cost is spread out across the country, the per person cost is lower. It would be impressive if a similar thing could be done here. To be honest, I'd imagine that everyone would be covered and costs on a per capita basis would likely drop.

This link does a nice comparison between the two countries including costs (2006 figures were $1000 difference, with Canada on the cheaper end per person)

[casey35]

Originally Posted by key

I have no doubt that you work hard for whatever you have in your life. I just wonder why you are so convinced that most other people (even poor people) work as hard as you do? And that even with working so hard are still not able to provide something as basic as health care for themselves or their families?

I am not saying there are no freeloaders in our country, in every country. But why would you make everyone else, everyone who works as hard as you do, suffer without basic care because of them?

BTW, if you make less than 250K you got a tax cut this year, did you know that?

Honestly, it sounds like you are bitter about how hard you have to work and still not be able to afford your basic needs - like decent on demand health care. It seems to me that you are taking your frustration out on your fellow citizens instead of the broken system that values astronomical profits for a few over basic care for everyone.

Which is more important to you? That a few among us are able to get filthy rich, or that everyone get basic care and not have to go bankrupt to cover medical bills? Keeping the system that way it is (for profit) enshrines mega-profit for some over care for all.

No i am not bitter because i do not have healthcare. What i do not like is the way they are going about things. I get tired of hearing our congress saying if you not for this then we are unamerican. I am kinda wondering what you all going to say when they put a heavy tax on us to where we cant afford things. When i was in Scotland do you know how many had cars or lived with there parents and grandparents because they was so heavily tax that they could not afford to live on there own. Let see what the bill is and see how bad they fuck us before i will agree to anything.

[key]

It really gets under my skin when I see people who would rather let other people suffer A LOT than to have themselves suffer a little bit. In my world, all citizens should be required to sacrifice a little bit so that all of us can have basic standards of living, a social safety net. It's called living in a civilized world - caring about complete strangers simply because they share the planet with us.

When I think about it, it is really a selfish reason why I care enough about people I don't even know to sacrifice some of my hard earned money for them. I know that as hard as I work (self employed for over 10 years now), and as healthy as I am (95% veggie, fit as a fiddle) I am not immune to the twists of fate and misfortunes that can befall any of us. I would hope and pray that complete strangers would care about me if I needed them.

Not to mention that my neighbor getting treated for their TB, or SARS, or H1N1 asap is in MY best interest!

If some freeloader takes advantage of that big deal! I would rather 10 freeloaders get something for nothing than to let one honest person suffer needlessly. But, that is just me – even though I do not claim Christianity as my one religion, I do believe that Jesus had it right when he said “Whatsoever you do to the least among you, that you do unto Me.”

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by casey35

No i am not bitter because i do not have healthcare. What i do not like is the way they are going about things. I get tired of hearing our congress saying if you not for this then we are unamerican. I am kinda wondering what you all going to say when they put a heavy tax on us to where we cant afford things. When i was in Scotland do you know how many had cars or lived with there parents and grandparents because they was so heavily tax that they could not afford to live on there own. Let see what the bill is and see how bad they fuck us before i will agree to anything.

Casey, I'm not picking on you here, but do you make $250K/year or more?? What's wrong with "how they're going about it"?? Because your taxes haven't gone up and won't go up to support this bill, which:

* Insurance companies can no longer deny coverage to children who were born with illnesses or have pre-existing conditions.
* Insurance companies are prohibited from dropping people because they get sick.
* They must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans until age 26.
* Starting in 2014, insurance companies can no longer deny coverage to people with pre-existing conditions.
* Insurance companies in 2014 will be barred from imposing annual limits on the amount of coverage people can get. There also will be no lifetime coverage limits.
* 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured will be covered.
* The uninsured and self-employed people will be able to buy insurance through state-based exchanges with government subsidies given to those who can't afford it.
* There will be limits on what people have to pay for premiums and out-of-pocket costs based on income.
* Wasteful spending on insurance company executive salaries will be stopped by limiting how much of people's insurance premiums can go toward company administration and profits. A company that goes over the limit has to rebate it back to consumers.
* Insurance companies will be forced to end discrimination against women by charging more for groups with high percentage of women.
* Large employers will pay a penalty if they don't provide health coverage and their employees have to get subsidies in the exchanges to buy their own insurance.
* Small businesses that provide their workers with insurance will get tax credits that cover 35% of premium costs immediately and 50% in 2014.
* Seniors will get additional help for prescription drugs by closing the Medicare "donut hole" or coverage gap, which requires patients to pay the full cost of prescription drugs that cost between $2,830 and $6,440. The donut hole affects about one in four Medicare recipients, forcing them to start splitting their drugs or stop taking medications altogether. Seniors who fall into the donut hole will get a $250 rebate this year, a 50% discount on brand-name drugs starting next year and the donut hole will be completely eliminated by 2020.
* In 2018, there will be an excise tax on employer-provided health plans costing more than $27,500 for family coverage and $10,200 for individual coverage. The tax is imposed only on the amount of the premium that goes over the threshold. It is to be paid by the insurance companies.
************************************************** *****

You see, I don't see Obama's health bill as costing either YOU or ME more in taxes, because neither you or I make over $250K/year. In fact, you and me both are going to see our taxes actually go down.

I just don't understand why you think something like this is about taxing either you or me to death......but it is going to cost the big health insurance companies their huge profit margins and obscene executive pay and bonuses. The only way these insurance companies can "fight back" is to spread lies and misinformation to the average American. They hope to generate fear, and that fear will manifest itself in making John and Jane Q. Public run to the voting box and cast his/her vote in favor of keeping Wall Street in control of our political system.

My suggestion to anyone in this country who is buying into the misinformation and lies is to turn off Fox News and do some reading. Spend LESS time with Pogo.com, American Idol and the X-Box and educate yourself on political happenings and where the money flow in this country is heading. Become active in the political process and know who and what you are voting for.....and why.

Knowledge really is power.

~Theo~

[Jess]

Originally Posted by theoddz

Casey, I'm not picking on you here, but do you make $250K/year or more?? What's wrong with "how they're going about it"?? Because your taxes haven't gone up and won't go up to support this bill, which:

* Insurance companies can no longer deny coverage to children who were born with illnesses or have pre-existing conditions.
* Insurance companies are prohibited from dropping people because they get sick.
* They must allow children to stay on their parent's insurance plans until age 26.
* Starting in 2014, insurance companies can no longer deny coverage to people with pre-existing conditions.
* Insurance companies in 2014 will be barred from imposing annual limits on the amount of coverage people can get. There also will be no lifetime coverage limits.
* 32 million Americans who are currently uninsured will be covered.
* The uninsured and self-employed people will be able to buy insurance through state-based exchanges with government subsidies given to those who can't afford it.
* There will be limits on what people have to pay for premiums and out-of-pocket costs based on income.
* Wasteful spending on insurance company executive salaries will be stopped by limiting how much of people's insurance premiums can go toward company administration and profits. A company that goes over the limit has to rebate it back to consumers.
* Insurance companies will be forced to end discrimination against women by charging more for groups with high percentage of women.
* Large employers will pay a penalty if they don't provide health coverage and their employees have to get subsidies in the exchanges to buy their own insurance.
* Small businesses that provide their workers with insurance will get tax credits that cover 35% of premium costs immediately and 50% in 2014.
* Seniors will get additional help for prescription drugs by closing the Medicare "donut hole" or coverage gap, which requires patients to pay the full cost of prescription drugs that cost between $2,830 and $6,440. The donut hole affects about one in four Medicare recipients, forcing them to start splitting their drugs or stop taking medications altogether. Seniors who fall into the donut hole will get a $250 rebate this year, a 50% discount on brand-name drugs starting next year and the donut hole will be completely eliminated by 2020.
* In 2018, there will be an excise tax on employer-provided health plans costing more than $27,500 for family coverage and $10,200 for individual coverage. The tax is imposed only on the amount of the premium that goes over the threshold. It is to be paid by the insurance companies.
************************************************** *****

You see, I don't see Obama's health bill as costing either YOU or ME more in taxes, because neither you or I make over $250K/year. In fact, you and me both are going to see our taxes actually go down.

I just don't understand why you think something like this is about taxing either you or me to death......but it is going to cost the big health insurance companies their huge profit margins and obscene executive pay and bonuses. The only way these insurance companies can "fight back" is to spread lies and misinformation to the average American. They hope to generate fear, and that fear will manifest itself in making John and Jane Q. Public run to the voting box and cast his/her vote in favor of keeping Wall Street in control of our political system.

My suggestion to anyone in this country who is buying into the misinformation and lies is to turn off Fox News and do some reading. Spend LESS time with Pogo.com, American Idol and the X-Box and educate yourself on political happenings and where the money flow in this country is heading. Become active in the political process and know who and what you are voting for.....and why.

Knowledge really is power.

~Theo~

While the list of goodies above regarding insurance reform ( I truly don't see this as healthcare reform) is all good.. I see no where limits being placed on insurance companies for what they can charge or how often they can increase. That is one of the greater issues I have with this bill. It is NOT what Mr Obama wanted. It is not what our country needs. It may be a start, but until insurance companies get capped and until pharmecuticals have shorter limits set on the time before drugs can be made generically, then we are still at their mercy. Until malpractice suits stop making decisions for our medical professionals and until more med students become general practioners again instead of cosmetic surgeons ( because that is where the big bucks vs low risk is), we are still at their mercy.

Frankly, this country and the folks running it have forgotten what "mercy" really means.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by Jess

While the list of goodies above regarding insurance reform ( I truly don't see this as healthcare reform) is all good.. I see no where limits being placed on insurance companies for what they can charge or how often they can increase. That is one of the greater issues I have with this bill. It is NOT what Mr Obama wanted. It is not what our country needs. It may be a start, but until insurance companies get capped and until pharmecuticals have shorter limits set on the time before drugs can be made generically, then we are still at their mercy. Until malpractice suits stop making decisions for our medical professionals and until more med students become general practioners again instead of cosmetic surgeons ( because that is where the big bucks vs low risk is), we are still at their mercy.

Frankly, this country and the folks running it have forgotten what "mercy" really means.

I so totally agree with you, Jess, but like you said, it's "a start" in the right direction. I would have liked to have seen this bill go waaaaaay further. In fact, I'd have liked to have seen a single payer system be implemented, right off the bat. Thing is, too many people have been making far too much money for far too long and they won't be giving it up overnight and certainly not without a huge ol' fight!! Just this little big of legislation in the right direction has big insurance chafing at the bit and throwing millions of their ill-begotten "blood money" into the grist mills of lies and misinformation systems, such as Faux/Fox News. It's working, too....just look at all the people who mistakenly believe that their taxes are going to go through the roof, instead of actually being lowered. Until that blood money is wrested from the grips of the fat cats, we won't see true health reform, but slow-acting hybrids and "half dones", until the job is done.

Mother says, "How do you eat an elephant??......One bite at a time."

~Theo~

[casey35]

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by casey35

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

So how much faux news do you watch? Did you not just read what Theo posted? That is the actual language of the law, it isn't a bill anymore it's the law. If one makes 250K a year or more, your taxes will go up, but not astronomically. If you make less than 250K a year your taxes will go down. Please stop and read the law before you quote the ignorance of faux news.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by casey35

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

Casey, again, I'm not picking on you, but I do see the fear in your posts, and yes, I want to see our gov't "live within its means" as much as you do. I don't relish the thought of our children, grandchildren, greats and on down the line, have to pick up the tab and be burdened with financial irresponsibility engaged in during our generation's tenure. This isn't what's going to happen with this legislation, however.

Please, PLEASE, read a little more about the financial impact and SAVINGS that health care reform NOW....THIS legislation, in particular, will generate, over the next two to three decades. We'll be saving our economy trillions of dollars.....ya, read that.....trillions. Did you know that many of the points listed in my post above that comprise this law were actually originally proposed by more than one conservative Republican "think tanks" in recent years gone by?? Mitt Romney (conservative Republican), when he was Governor of the State of Massachusetts, revamped that state's health care system by implementing many of these very same principles and required each and every citizen of Massachusetts to purchase health insurance. He did the very same thing that this national law does, only on a state level and it's been extremely successful in that state, not to mention the savings it has made in that state's budget.

I'm not, in any way, trying to discourage your opinion. I think it's wonderful that you have one on this issue, because so many folks are undecided. That's okay. All's I'm asking is that you have an educated opinion, and not one borne of fear, lies and misinformation. Really, research it!!! At least keep an open mind and read more. You might be (pleasantly) surprised.

~Theo~

[Linus]

Originally Posted by casey35

Keys, I have mercy for those who work but if u are lazy ass then i say take a flying leap. I must not be liberal thank god. Seems congress thinks that money is grown on trees thats why they are spending it as fast as they can make it before you know it gas will be 10 dollars a gallon and milk will be 8. When you are living paycheck to paycheck like I am I have to worry about taking care of me and my own cant worry about taking care of anyone else. If you consider this selfish I am sorry but I was raised to be self reliant not let government take care of me. My question is who going to be paying this back us, our children, grandchildren, or great grandchildren?

What about those that can't work (e.g., many soldiers coming back from various locations are suffering PTSD), cannot find work (many people are more than willing to work but can't even find the simplest of jobs) or have retired from work finally (however, many are going back to work because they can't afford to retire)?



The reality is there will be no one single answer that will address everything nor will it be solved in a year. We cannot end up back in the 1950s where prosperity seemed endless. Society has drastically changed thanks to advertising (increased our consumerism beyond what, IMO, we really need), the internet (communication -- both medium and language -- has changed drastically), cultural advances, etc. I think as long as we don't lose our humanity, things will work out in some manner (we may not know what it is now and it may be vastly different in the future but we should try to avoid losing our hope and optimism in general).

[key]

The saddest part for me is to read on here where another lesbian, another poor person has come to believe that instead of reaching out to help each other we must fight like dogs over the scraps of bone that the fat cats toss us from time to time.

This is exactly how the rich and greedy want us. So desperate that we come to fear that working together, helping each other, yes even sacrificing for another will somehow threaten our very safety, and the little bit of almost nothing that we have to work so hard to get and maintain. Americans attacking other Americans for being "lazy ass." The ole Ronald Reagan Welfare Queen myth alive and well. The other side of that myth is that the rich people among us "earned" all their obscene wealth. (gag)

I was raised to believe that many hands make the load lighter. That I am not an island, that I actually need other people, and that they actually need me. That is called community, society, and working together towards a bigger goal than any one of us could attain on our own it is not a bad thing.

I was raised to believe that the citizens of this country ARE the Government. This great American Experiment of a Government Of the People, For the People, By the People is not some legend. It is alive (though barely breathing thanks to the rich raping and pillaging it for the last 30 years - thanks Reagan and every President since) But we can revive that great American Spirit that founded this country, that ordinary citizens can create a government (many hands working together) that meets the needs of its citizens as outlined in the Preamble.

1)Form a more perfect Union (Federal Standards while respecting states rights)

2) Establish Justice (write and enforce these standards, and have an equal and fair justice system)

3) Ensure domestic tranquility (no prejudice, no hate, minority rights not trampled by majority)

4) Provide for the Common Defense (this is the only one the cons want you know about)

5) Promote the General Welfare (yes, gov. supporting ways to have basic needs met - education, food, shelter, and health care)

6)Ensure the blessings of Liberty (when basic needs are met people are free to experiment, to grow, to innovate, to be entrepreneurial)

Roosevelt said it best when he said. We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

[Kobi]

Thank you for key for breaking the issue down to something we all need to keep in mind.

Being notoriously behind the times, I was watching Michael Moore's "Capitalism" today. As he probed, albeit drama and all, into the financial sector and its pervasive effect on the government which ends up dumping on the little guy, I was feeling a similar scenario in relation to health care.

The financial sector wanted us to believe that their mortgages and deriatives and other instruments of control over our lives and freedom were beneficial to us. The federal treasury helped the cause and led the bailout when it was on the brink of supposedly collapsing by dipping into the pockets of the taxpayer not once but twice throwing us into unprecidented debt.

Now, we have a President who wants change in health care - a laudable and welcomed idea. And, he turns to financial folks and the health care lobby to devise something plausible for all. Somehow, to me, asking those who created the problem to solve the problem makes me automatically suspect of the process and the final result.

I love the idea of every American having health insurance or the right to be sick without the fear of bankruptcy. But I fear we will be facing the same game playing and slight of hand tactics as we did in the financial industry.
The rich and well to do seldom willingly give up potential profits without some tricks up their sleeves.

Specifically, I expect we will find, if it is not already occuring, our insurance companies taking out life insurance policies on us. They already know what our state of health is. It is a suckers bet to sure up the bottom line with hefty death payments.

The misstatement of costs associated with this program is misleading as well. It is common knowledge that what Congress passed is very similar to what is already in use here in Mass. And the folks in Mass will tell you they had no idea of how quickly the subsidized program would grow. They would tell you that thousands of small businesses dropped their employee coverage. Why? They could have paid $6-10,000 per employee for insurance or a $500.00 per employee penalty. Seems like a no brainer to me and to them. So suddenly the program almost doubled overnight.

With insurance comes the freedom to seek care and seek care is what people did. The cash register was open 24/7.

The costs were growing so fast, and the tax base was shrinking thanks to the economy, so we had a $1.00 a pack increase on smokes, increased the sales tax, increased fees for unrelated programs, upped the premium costs to participants to almost double (still a bargain tho), increased co-pays etc.

Common sense says you can't enact something like this without some financial fallout. And the projections of costs by government pundits looking to ease the pain by manipulating the figures isn't the least bit reliable. It's a vicious cycle....income has been stagnant for decades, costs are skyrocketing, disposable income is an outdated concept. Getting something for nothing aint real folks.

I also fear with the proliferation of gene based illnesses and diseases, that if we can't find a way to fix them, we may seek other, less palatable ways to eradicate the costs associated with them.

And, most of all, the social worker in me, fears that we, as a society, have become very complacent, very willing to look the other way as long as our standard of living remains untouched. We, are willing to remain silent when our officials circumvent the Constitution, when they ignore the laws and checks and balances that were built into the system, and when they deliberately refuse to act when the handwriting is on the wall. And, I worry that we will see more people getting angry with one another rather than putting their anger where it belongs.

I love health care for all. But, I am hesitate to believe all the rhetoric that surrounds what was passed. Time tends to prove one way or another what truth is. Personally, if they had a devirative on the bill and the costs it will impose on society, I'd sink every dollar I have right now into it..... cuz I'm willing to bet there will be a short lived peak before the reality plunges use deeper into debt. And the insiders will make a bizillion bucks both at the peak and during the bailout....just like they did in finance.

Now, I must go temper my rising blood pressure and quell the acid building in my stomach.

[casey35]

Originally Posted by key

The saddest part for me is to read on here where another lesbian, another poor person has come to believe that instead of reaching out to help each other we must fight like dogs over the scraps of bone that the fat cats toss us from time to time.

This is exactly how the rich and greedy want us. So desperate that we come to fear that working together, helping each other, yes even sacrificing for another will somehow threaten our very safety, and the little bit of almost nothing that we have to work so hard to get and maintain. Americans attacking other Americans for being "lazy ass." The ole Ronald Reagan Welfare Queen myth alive and well. The other side of that myth is that the rich people among us "earned" all their obscene wealth. (gag)

I was raised to believe that many hands make the load lighter. That I am not an island, that I actually need other people, and that they actually need me. That is called community, society, and working together towards a bigger goal than any one of us could attain on our own it is not a bad thing.

I was raised to believe that the citizens of this country ARE the Government. This great American Experiment of a Government Of the People, For the People, By the People is not some legend. It is alive (though barely breathing thanks to the rich raping and pillaging it for the last 30 years - thanks Reagan and every President since) But we can revive that great American Spirit that founded this country, that ordinary citizens can create a government (many hands working together) that meets the needs of its citizens as outlined in the Preamble.

1)Form a more perfect Union (Federal Standards while respecting states rights)

2) Establish Justice (write and enforce these standards, and have an equal and fair justice system)

3) Ensure domestic tranquility (no prejudice, no hate, minority rights not trampled by majority)

4) Provide for the Common Defense (this is the only one the cons want you know about)

5) Promote the General Welfare (yes, gov. supporting ways to have basic needs met - education, food, shelter, and health care)

6)Ensure the blessings of Liberty (when basic needs are met people are free to experiment, to grow, to innovate, to be entrepreneurial)

Roosevelt said it best when he said. We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

Dear Key, what saddens me is that some other person is judging me on my opinion, someone who does not even know who I am. I have opened my home to those who need help no matter who or what they are. I am done discussing this matter. I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by casey35

Dear Key, what saddens me is that some other person is judging me on my opinion, someone who does not even know who I am. I have opened my home to those who need help no matter who or what they are. I am done discussing this matter. I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion.

No one is judging you, get off the pitty party and stand up for what you say you believe in. You espouse that which has been proven to be wrong and now you want to play the I'm being judged card. it doesn't fly. Opinions are a dime a dozen, facts are just that facts.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Corkey

No one is judging you, get off the pitty party and stand up for what you say you believe in. You espouse that which has been proven to be wrong and now you want to play the I'm being judged card. it doesn't fly. Opinions are a dime a dozen, facts are just that facts.

Actually, she was judged. I don't blame her for wanting to step away from the conversation. Her first judgement was that she was racist. She apologized and it wasn't enough.

I have had this conversation on this site before and will not subject my home to it again. Be clear. Not coming to defend anyone. Just noting that yes, she was judged. Please go back and read it all from the beginning.

Sometimes a healthy distance gives us all a better perspective. I try not to judge folks who have a different experience in life than I have had. I try not to judge folks who say things with words that don't sit well with me. I try. Sometimes I fail to make my point clearly or concisely without ruffling feathers. I guess if I put myself out there, then I am due my own lil ass whooping.

If someone tries and feels they have failed and says they need to step aside, that should be honored and enough. Just my opinion.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jess

Actually, she was judged. I don't blame her for wanting to step away from the conversation. Her first judgement was that she was racist. She apologized and it wasn't enough.

I have had this conversation on this site before and will not subject my home to it again. Be clear. Not coming to defend anyone. Just noting that yes, she was judged. Please go back and read it all from the beginning.

Sometimes a healthy distance gives us all a better perspective. I try not to judge folks who have a different experience in life than I have had. I try not to judge folks who say things with words that don't sit well with me. I try. Sometimes I fail to make my point clearly or concisely without ruffling feathers. I guess if I put myself out there, then I am due my own lil ass whooping.

If someone tries and feels they have failed and says they need to step aside, that should be honored and enough. Just my opinion.

If she feels so judged then maybe it's best she remove herself from the thread. The parting shot of " I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion." is pure pitty me BS. It's manipulative and high school angst.