Legalization of drugs, pros and cons!

[Massive]

I have to say, I found this thread very interesting, but mostly for the fact that not many who've posted have mentioned actually using these so called 'recreational' drugs, I personally smoke pot, but not for fun, I smoke because first and foremost it is the most effective painkiller for my disability.
I've had rheumatoid arthritis since I was in my teens and I've been put on most of the drugs available from the BMA (British Medical Association), now there are some which are only available in the US, because the medical association here deems them to be too unsafe/untested to prescribe to Brits, and those I have taken have more often than not had such major side-effects that I was worse off on them than off, so, if my RA's really bad, I'd much rather smoke, even my Consultant in hospital only has issues with my smoking pot because of the fact that I am smoking and not eating it ... Most doctors and police officers I know would legalise some drugs in a heart-beat, because they know of the benefits and in regards to the police, it would be far less paperwork/foot slogging for them to do.
Amsterdam hasn't fallen apart since it was made legal there, and I don't see how a country cannot benefit from legalising the likes of pot. Harder drugs, however, is a different matter, I've seen heroin kill people, I've bured two friends, so far, who've OD'd, and I don't care to see that happen to any more of my friends.
So, should drugs be legalised? IMHO, some should yes, whereas others, definately not, isn't it bad enough that kids are out on the streets killing each others with knives and guns without giving them free reign to then kill each other with 'bad' batches of their drug of choice??

[Jess]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

Thank you for engaging.

Here is the way I see this, and this doesn't mean it is the ONLY way or the RIGHT way to see it, it simply means this is the way I see it. Instead of saying, "Why make such detrimental outcomes that much easier?" and I quote you, I say, why not make such a detrimental outcome that much safer?

I think that we agree that addiction sees no deterrents, or at least that is what I see by your post. So, if there are no deterrents, why not make it safer? Why not supply more help where it counts, as in counseling?

I am not an expert, this is jut my opinion.

As for the other issues I agree, we need real health care, we need Human Rights to be Equal rights, but I don't see how this applies to addiction. Perhaps you can help me with that.

Sure. And thanks. I DO see a correlation between drug abuse and core issues such as self esteem/ poverty/ childhood abuse.. the list goes on. How many addicts do you know grew up with a complete sense of self? That "something" wasn't wrong with them in their sense of self worth? ALL of the core issues stem from feeling less than and seeking an easy way to "escape" that dark place.

Whether it being gay/ poor/ of color/ differently abled.. such a huge part of our country grows up feeling "othered" as it were that they seek solace in drugs/ alcohol/ sex. As adults we see it as "choice", but as a child who starts using early on, it is just surviving.

Make marijuana legal, sure. It has it's place. As for the rest, keep it illegal and force our legislators to step up and do the right thing for our people. Make discrimination in all forms illegal. Make education the priority for our youth and stop wasting funds on bullshit like sports., or 6 billion for NASA when we have such high unemployment. Tax corporations who send our jobs overseas and use slave labor in other countries while our people are without jobs. Bust up labor unions , which had their purpose in the beginnings but now just price common labor too high for companies to pay, while all of the rights that were needed back in the day are part of equal employment opportunity. We have no need for the high cost of unions today., Half of the folks are unemployed part of the year anyway cause they are on strike. Make immigration easier for folks truly just trying to make a new start.

We have so many common sense things that can be done to make America safe and profitable again and we are weighlayed daily by our "elected" officials. I don't think we are as "under-informed" as folks like to say, moreover we are over-stimulated by floods of half truths coming at us from every direction. More folks need to settle down and look around them and see what really is "real".

What is real is that we need to do away with the two party system as neither are any longer what they say they are. We need to do away with the electoral college ( cause no one is unable to vote anymore which was it's purpose) and the public vote can truly count again. We need to demand resumes from our candidates and see what the hell they have really done and not vote by popularity. If we truly want to be a country run by the people/ for the people, then the people need to get off our ass and hold our representatives responsible to carry out our wishes.

My opinions only and sorry to blurt them out here, I just see so many circular conversations regarding similar ( though worded differently) situations that it makes my skin crawl.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Jess

Sorry to disagree with your logic, although I can see it. I don't see where making becoming addicted easier will make getting treatment any better. They don't give federal money now for addicts. Why would that change? There was a short period in the 80's where "treatment" was the trendy thing to do and insurance companies actually paid for it. Those days are way over and it is now "optional". Imagine that. It's optional to get treatment, as it is optional to become an addict. So says Blue Cross.

I try to see the point in legalizing highly addictive chemicals, but sorry, I just don't.

It's okay. We can totally agree to disagree. I don't think decriminalization will make becoming an addict any easier.

When I walk down the alcohol aisle in my supermarket? I always people watch who is buying booze. Because anyone buying it could be an alcoholic, but not everyone buying it is an alcoholic. They're walking by the same racks of booze after all.

I was almost killed by a drunk driver, but because it was a hit & run case when we got to court he was sentence to the maximum allowed for hit & run. Four years. I pleaded with the court to send him to a rehabilitation facility or to at least order AA when he paroled. The law didn't allow for that. I don't think prison time is going to help this young man at ALL but rather send out an angrier more volatile person. Who most likely will drink and drive again. How is that justice for either one of us or for potential victims?

As for the Blue Cross? Often times when you have cancer they deem chemo "not medically necessary" so yeah. They are the devil because they are allowed to be.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Massive

I have to say, I found this thread very interesting, but mostly for the fact that not many who've posted have mentioned actually using these so called 'recreational' drugs, I personally smoke pot, but not for fun, I smoke because first and foremost it is the most effective painkiller for my disability.
I've had rheumatoid arthritis since I was in my teens and I've been put on most of the drugs available from the BMA (British Medical Association), now there are some which are only available in the US, because the medical association here deems them to be too unsafe/untested to prescribe to Brits, and those I have taken have more often than not had such major side-effects that I was worse off on them than off, so, if my RA's really bad, I'd much rather smoke, even my Consultant in hospital only has issues with my smoking pot because of the fact that I am smoking and not eating it ... Most doctors and police officers I know would legalise some drugs in a heart-beat, because they know of the benefits and in regards to the police, it would be far less paperwork/foot slogging for them to do.
Amsterdam hasn't fallen apart since it was made legal there, and I don't see how a country cannot benefit from legalising the likes of pot. Harder drugs, however, is a different matter, I've seen heroin kill people, I've bured two friends, so far, who've OD'd, and I don't care to see that happen to any more of my friends.
So, should drugs be legalised? IMHO, some should yes, whereas others, definately not, isn't it bad enough that kids are out on the streets killing each others with knives and guns without giving them free reign to then kill each other with 'bad' batches of their drug of choice??

I hear this often from other RA sufferers - pot helping with pain and even the swelling, stiffness, etc. There are times I wish this was something I could utilize for RA. I have just never cared for pot myself, even when first using it as a teen. It just makes me too anxious and I don't like feeling out of control, which the anxiety brings with iton for me. Probably a wiring thing.... However, I have met other people that have the same difficulty with pot. Alcohol isn't something I like all that much either and don't like to be around people that are way drunk or high. Acupuncture helps me quite a bit, but my insurance won't cover the treatments. Crazy- they will cover pain killers that can be addictive or are not so great to take while trying to work, or just live life.

CA has a pot decriminalization measure coming up and it includes taxation. I am going to vote for it. Msdemeanor's sentiments about this align with mine. Criminalization of pot just seems nuts to me overall.

I do not, however, believe pot to be totally safe, but think adults ought to make up their own minds about its possible side effects, especially with frequent, long-term use. On the other hand, it does have some positive medicinal purposes that have been demonstrated for a very long time. Other substances are a different matter for me.

[Mitmo01]

California hopefully passes that measure and then the rest of the country will be sure to follow... not only will that measure help all people access marijuana if they want to without legal retribution but it will also help California out with its huge deficit and take the money away from the cartels and the criminals....

also Atlast...i know a lot of people that do not like smoking it so they use the vaporizer method, clean and smoke free with all the benefits of the THC...might be something that could help you with your pain....

[Massive]

Here in the UK they partially decriminalised pot and then not long after they reinstated it as higher classification, it really amazes me, when there are doctors here who will prescribe it for arthritis sufferers and people with cancer, my little brother could've used it when he was having chemo and radiotherapy and a friend of mine went out of her way to get him some medical grade pot to help him!
I know there are some people who have issues with smoking it too AtLast, and my advice to them is to cook with it, you can make a tincture in vodka which you can apply directly to the affected areas, and that's not something new, I read about it when reading about victorian medical practices ... Also, when ingested the effects last for longer, but what they really need to do is further research into using the painkilling element of the canaboid for pain relief.
Also, and this is an aside from the legalisation issue, and something which still disgusts me to this day, the research department in Newcastle University found a cure for arthritis, which was one injection, per year, which left sufferers of arthritis totally pain free until the next injection and the pharmaceutical companies here quashed it because, from what I saw, they knew they would lose millions in revenue

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Mitmo01

California hopefully passes that measure and then the rest of the country will be sure to follow... not only will that measure help all people access marijuana if they want to without legal retribution but it will also help California out with its huge deficit and take the money away from the cartels and the criminals....

also Atlast...i know a lot of people that do not like smoking it so they use the vaporizer method, clean and smoke free with all the benefits of the THC...might be something that could help you with your pain....

I wish that were true, but so far that hasn't been the case with other issues like same-sex marriage, etc.

I think the Conservative side of California, those folks who voted for Prop 8, are only considering legalizing it because of its fiscal benefits.

So although I agree with your sentiment, I don't believe that because CA passes this law other states are just going to follow suit.

[Mitmo01]

and on the subject of rape victims---here is something that can acutally help victims of rape and ptsd if it were legal....MDMA and Psyilociban--magic mushrooms and LSD

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100423/...N5Y2hlZGVsaWN0

Psychedelic research organization: http://www.maps.org

[Toughy]

For the sake of disclosure.........

I have done damn near every street drug in every way you can think of and probably some you can't......laughin.... starting back in 1970 when I was 18 yrs old. So I have a bit of experience around this. I gave all that shit up 20-25 years ago. I'm just a pot smoker now and I have a medical marijuana card (I have RA). You could not pay me enough money to do white powder every again. Mother Nature's hallucinogens (mushrooms, peyote).....well I might do them again....although I am taking way to many pharmaceuticals and I worry about interactions.

I say legalize every drug on the street........all of them and make needles available for free at every drugstore (this would help out diabetics cuz they use the same needles junkies use). Legalize, tax, control the manufacture and distribution of said drugs. Treat them like alcohol and tobacco with age restrictions. It's really a no-brainer in my mind. Europe has models that work well for this.

Legalize prostitution also, but that is another thread.

There are other abstinence based recovery programs. AA is not the only game in town. LifeRing is one of them and it doesn't require powerlessness or giving up control to some higher power/god. It is against the law for a court to mandate AA as the treatment program. Courts can mandate treatment, but they can't say it has to be AA/12 Step based.

No one knows why one becomes an addict. It is not a character defect. People who have perfectly normal self esteem can be addicted to any substance. It does not run in families despite what folks say....there is no data to back that up. I personally don't subscribe to the 'disease' model. That was thought up so the health insurance companies and treatment programs could make big time bucks treating the disease. Addiction is a change in brain chemistry.....particularly in the dopamine (the pleasure chemical) pathways.

Oxycontin is a brand name for oxycodone....so is Percocet, Percodan, etc. Oxycontin is a time released version and was approved in the mid 90's. Percocet/Percodan have been around since the mid 70's. It is similar to morphine and is used for chronic pain. The FDA controls drugs and to my knowledge no state has said these drugs cannot be sold in their state..........I'm not sure they can and it would be incredibly stupid if they did.

ok done I think...........but back to the original question and as I have said many times over many years........legalize them all......you can't control what is illegal.

[MainelyButch]

I now have the munchies....

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Jess

Sure. And thanks. I DO see a correlation between drug abuse and core issues such as self esteem/ poverty/ childhood abuse.. the list goes on. How many addicts do you know grew up with a complete sense of self? That "something" wasn't wrong with them in their sense of self worth? ALL of the core issues stem from feeling less than and seeking an easy way to "escape" that dark place.

Whether it being gay/ poor/ of color/ differently abled.. such a huge part of our country grows up feeling "othered" as it were that they seek solace in drugs/ alcohol/ sex. As adults we see it as "choice", but as a child who starts using early on, it is just surviving.

Make marijuana legal, sure. It has it's place. As for the rest, keep it illegal and force our legislators to step up and do the right thing for our people. Make discrimination in all forms illegal. Make education the priority for our youth and stop wasting funds on bullshit like sports., or 6 billion for NASA when we have such high unemployment. Tax corporations who send our jobs overseas and use slave labor in other countries while our people are without jobs. Bust up labor unions , which had their purpose in the beginnings but now just price common labor too high for companies to pay, while all of the rights that were needed back in the day are part of equal employment opportunity. We have no need for the high cost of unions today., Half of the folks are unemployed part of the year anyway cause they are on strike. Make immigration easier for folks truly just trying to make a new start.

We have so many common sense things that can be done to make America safe and profitable again and we are weighlayed daily by our "elected" officials. I don't think we are as "under-informed" as folks like to say, moreover we are over-stimulated by floods of half truths coming at us from every direction. More folks need to settle down and look around them and see what really is "real".

What is real is that we need to do away with the two party system as neither are any longer what they say they are. We need to do away with the electoral college ( cause no one is unable to vote anymore which was it's purpose) and the public vote can truly count again. We need to demand resumes from our candidates and see what the hell they have really done and not vote by popularity. If we truly want to be a country run by the people/ for the people, then the people need to get off our ass and hold our representatives responsible to carry out our wishes.

My opinions only and sorry to blurt them out here, I just see so many circular conversations regarding similar ( though worded differently) situations that it makes my skin crawl.

There are a lot of good points in your post, but I am going to start with those in bold because they struck a chord with me.

The same can be said for those of us who grew up like that but did not turn out to be addicts, thank God.

I think addiction is a disease, at times it is also hereditary. I am not a addict, so I am not coming from a place of experience of knowing, What I know I have read or learned while working in paces that do deal with addition. I came across a lot of addicts that came from affluent families and who where never exposed to abuse of any kind. So what made them addicts?

To me Human Rights and Equal rights mean different than to you, and that is OK. We simply see things different.

The other part that I highlighted I did because Bullshit like sports kept me away from drugs and alcohol and I know from my life experience and all those thousands of kids that later on I helped through sports, that it did the same from them. So I humbly disagree with that statement, wholeheartedly.

You make a lot of other points that I do agree with, but one, they are off topic and two I have a sugar induced headache. So perhaps at another time I can engage fully on those.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Mitmo01

California hopefully passes that measure and then the rest of the country will be sure to follow... not only will that measure help all people access marijuana if they want to without legal retribution but it will also help California out with its huge deficit and take the money away from the cartels and the criminals....

also Atlast...i know a lot of people that do not like smoking it so they use the vaporizer method, clean and smoke free with all the benefits of the THC...might be something that could help you with your pain....

Ah, HA!!! Wonder if it would make a difference with the anxiety thing.... dunno... Interesting, never thought of this! Amazing what this site brings!!

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Toughy

There are other abstinence based recovery programs. AA is not the only game in town. LifeRing is one of them and it doesn't require powerlessness or giving up control to some higher power/god. It is against the law for a court to mandate AA as the treatment program. Courts can mandate treatment, but they can't say it has to be AA/12 Step based.

Good to know that the courts can't demand a person goes to AA specifically. I get (believe me, I do!) that AA has done a world of good for some people - but the whole god thing kinda squicks me out. I always felt like they were just encouraging people to replace one crutch with another, you know?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

There are a lot of good points in your post, but I am going to start with those in bold because they struck a chord with me.

The same can be said for those of us who grew up like that but did not turn out to be addicts, thank God.

I think addiction is a disease, at times it is also hereditary. I am not a addict, so I am not coming from a place of experience of knowing, What I know I have read or learned while working in paces that do deal with addition. I came across a lot of addicts that came from affluent families and who where never exposed to abuse of any kind. So what made them addicts?

To me Human Rights and Equal rights mean different than to you, and that is OK. We simply see things different.

The other part that I highlighted I did because Bullshit like sports kept me away from drugs and alcohol and I know from my life experience and all those thousands of kids that later on I helped through sports, that it did the same from them. So I humbly disagree with that statement, wholeheartedly.

You make a lot of other points that I do agree with, but one, they are off topic and two I have a sugar induced headache. So perhaps at another time I can engage fully on those.

Just to let ya know... I never once used heredity as a premise for addiction , although some science does say it plays a role.

While I do see professional sports as bull shit, that is just my opinion and I also played sports in school and found great commraderie in the kinship of completing a common goal.

I don't know how you define Human Rights vs Equal rights, nor do you know how I do as we have not directly addressed this, so I do not understand how you can so readily disagree.

I am sorry you have a headache. Feel better.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

You make a lot of other points that I do agree with, but one, they are off topic and two I have a sugar induced headache. So perhaps at another time I can engage fully on those.

Hah! Lightweight. I will see your sugar induced headache and raise you a caffeine-withdrawl headache -and- upset stomache. (I get a headache and throw up if I don't get enough coffee - speaking of which...I need to go make another pot.)

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Good to know that the courts can't demand a person goes to AA specifically. I get (believe me, I do!) that AA has done a world of good for some people - but the whole god thing kinda squicks me out. I always felt like they were just encouraging people to replace one crutch with another, you know?

I wonder why the secretary at the AA meetings signs court cards at the end of meeting then?

I go with a *friend* (wink wink nudge nudge) to open meetings and listen. I have noticed that the God quotient squicks many people out. The program HAS helped oodles of people, so whatever works.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Hah! Lightweight. I will see your sugar induced headache and raise you a caffeine-withdrawl headache -and- upset stomache. (I get a headache and throw up if I don't get enough coffee - speaking of which...I need to go make another pot.)

Ha! Since I am not allowed to have caffeine, I will raise you a pot of the best decaf coffee in the world and the upset stomach (I am sure to get one) plus I will throw in a little of my day did not start well headache. So there!

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wonder why the secretary at the AA meetings signs court cards at the end of meeting then?

I go with a *friend* (wink wink nudge nudge) to open meetings and listen. I have noticed that the God quotient squicks many people out. The program HAS helped oodles of people, so whatever works.

The secretary signs it so the court knows they are going to meetings. LifeRing conveners sign those documents also. So do the facilitators of other recovery meetings.

You would be surprized at the data on all recovery programs. More folks get clean and sober without a program than with a program.....and no they are not what AA calls 'dry drunks'.........

this is a derail I think............

[Toughy]

headaches are contagious...........I have one now......my cure is:

hot black tea and a big fat joint...........and no stomach upset......

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Jess

Just to let ya know... I never once used heredity as a premise for addiction , although some science does say it plays a role.

While I do see professional sports as bull shit, that is just my opinion and I also played sports in school and found great commraderie in the kinship of completing a common goal.

I don't know how you define Human Rights vs Equal rights, nor do you know how I do as we have not directly addressed this, so I do not understand how you can so readily disagree.

I am sorry you have a headache. Feel better.

No, you didn't, I did. I think it does play a role, but I am only saying that from what I have observed, not backed by any scientific fact.

Playing sports while in school keeps kids off the streets and by default mostly off drugs, I truly believe that. Again, this from personal experience.

I wasn't saying Human Rights Vs. Equal Rights. I am thinking I may not be as articulate as I hope to be. We can certainly discuss that topic at another time.

Thanks for your sentiments about my headache, I have only myself to blame. Darn trip to "Candy's factory", the place I ran into after lunch. How could I resist nerds and gummy bears when I hardly ever get to eat them?!