OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I'm a bit concerned that it appeared to be staged, too quick with the analogies and at Faux they would never have stuck the mic in that guys face. Well it appears staged, I however agree whole heartedly with the guy, off the cuff or not.

Jessie LaGreca is a blogger at Daily Kos and Griff Jenkins is actually a Fox News producer so if it was staged it would mean an alliance between an activist for Occupy Wall St and a Fox newsman and ardent supporter of the tea party movement.

I guess it could happen but I certainly hope it didn't.

At least I think I hope it didn't. Not sure.

I can't wrap my head around what it would mean if they decided to work together cohesively.

They probably didn't. It's probably real. Ya, let's go with that.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

hmn. That in it's self is an code of ethics. which, is: a form of decided morality. Deciding not to be judgemental is a moral decision, based on what you (general) hold to be the most important attributes to live by, which you (Ender) listed for yourself and wish others to adopt....

I don't disagree with what you wish to come about, but one's morals could dictate non-judgement without being smug or dogmatic.

If we put the destruction of homo sapiens sapiens on one side of the scale and the continued existence of that species on the other side of the scale, then yes we can certainly call it a code of ethics. I also see it as efficiency. If we want the species to continue in such a way that there is steady technological/scientific and economic progress, then we also have to realise that social progress must come with it, for oppression does not attain any of these things in an efficient way for the long run. History has told us this over and over again.

In that case, there is really a distinction to be made between this code of ethics which, one could argue, comes down to efficiency, and the traditional definitions of morality which places morality/the act of being moral itself as the objective. We should also note that there is a distinct way in which traditional morality holds anything which opposes it, and that's what I was getting at in the last post.

Traditionally (when we consider the moral systems of the late Romans or the Christians, though particularly of the Christians), when one is a "moral being" one then has a "moral/divine/whatever" right to accuse a supposedly "immoral" being of being just that. This accomplishes absolutely nothing and becomes a pointless argument of "no you!" ad nauseum. By calling for greater "morality" within society, we are only calling for another man-made system that should not be questioned. We should be doing precisely the opposite, and asking society to actually think and analyze why they think the Occupy Wall Street movement is made up of "horrid commies omg," and why they refuse to do anything when the government and government-affiliated bankers continue to abuse the common person. Ask them to think outside what they consider "moral" and "immoral." Instead of asking a person to follow a "moral compass," it demands that people think for themselves.

[nobelcarrot69]

Not only does the spiral of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer need to stop, it needs to be reversed.

[Ciaran]

There is no doubt that there is need for reform of the banking system. However, the "Platform" / "Declaration" of this movement (as noted in the OP) reads to me like something that an emotional teenager would write.

It's trying to be all things to all people (well, all people with the exception bankers) and, furthermore, is scapegoating the banking sectors for many universal problems. These issues were in existence long before the modern banking system and will continue to exist long after the current banking system is redundant.

Aspects of the banking system may facilitate inhumanity (i.e. fundings of ammunition manufacturers etc) but it's not the driver of inhumanity.


Investors (equity and bondholders) need to take the pain - they have done so and are continuing to do so as this financial crisis evolves. However, some of us as individuals need to accept responsibility for our indebtedness too .... yes, a financial institution may have offered us a large mortgage that we would struggle to pay even if the good times lasted and, yes, we may have been offered significant amounts of unsecured credit. However, we are adults and need to accept the decisions we made and the risks that we have taken.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

To me a moral code, to be judged useful, must treat others with dignity and respect. A moral code that reduces the quality of people’s life is no moral code at all.

The time has come for those who clearly revere and respect humanity, for those who see the need for equity and justice, for those who understand the dignity inherent in all life to take back the use of the term morality. We must overcome our initial revulsion to the term moral. Our reluctance to use the words moral and morality is understandable. There has been a bad taste left in our mouths because of what passes for moral behavior and what is done to other human beings in the name of morality by supposedly god fearing morally righteous people.

Except that if we're going to define a moral code as treating others with dignity and respect, then we need to define "dignity" and "respect." We also need to realise that there are people in this world who believe (from a moral perspective, at that) that treating certain groups equally is actually an afront to the "dignity" and "respect" of others. For example, allowing same-sex marriage, to some, is an afront to the "dignity" and "respect" of the "heterosexual institution of marriage." They believe that the "moral health" of a nation/people is at risk with allowing that form of equality, and, in fact, to them it is not equality at all. How can we sit there and call them "immoral"? How can we make a sound argument against them, morally? According to whom? To ourselves, of course. But we are almost always moral beings in our own eyes.

It's the same for everyone. Anders Breivik thought himself a rather moral chap. He even predicted that society would deem him monstrous and immoral. But he held the "moral high ground." He was a "martyr." The thing is, people like Breivik do not need to be incarcerated to the maximum because of "morality," but because they are a danger to the progress of society which they inhabit. I would like to quickly add, because when I speak like this people tend to think I'm a "monster" myself or something, that I am not reducing the severity of acts like Breivik's. When I see such things occur there are two "parts" of me at play. The one part, which is enraged that some 70 Norwegian youths had their lives taken because of some christian nutjob. The second part of me asks myself why I am outraged. It then asks why these acts should be condemned in society. Do they have a use? What would happen if we did not incarcerate murderers? What would happen when people live in a society where their family and friends (or themselves) are murdered without society persecuting such actions? It would leave us all feeling extremely unsafe, and violence in society would escalate to the "eye for an eye" mentality present in past ages. In such an atmosphere, modern progress cannot occur. It would cause society to regress, remain static or, at best, progress very slowly (with half a millennium between technological revolutions once more).

Now back to the debate

So what is "dignity" and what is "respect," and to whom should it apply? I ask this because there do need to be restrictions placed on those who would discriminate against others in society. They will be treated in a way that is not with "dignity" and "respect" by their own assertions.

And how do we define to "revere and respect humanity." What is "justice"? Justice to whom? Who defines it? The Westboro Church, for example, seems to think that it's out to save humanity from immorality and disrespect brought upon it by "the Gay Agenda (TM)." The politicians who toy with our futures every single day claim to be doing it to help humanity...and yet many of their nations' citizens live in squalor. Politicians claim to bomb other nations all the time out of "moral justification." It has nothing to do with what they claim is "respect for humanity," but their own greed.

You write "supposedly god-fearing morally righteous people." How do you know that they are not? If morality is a subjective/abstract concept, then how can they be "supposedly" god-fearing morally righteous people? These words are completely based on one's own discoursive vocabulary. If one were to take the bible word for word, these types would actually show themselves as pretty "good" christians, if a "good" christian is defined by how well they follow the bible.

There are more efficient and better defensible ways to assure that the common person is treated as an equal in a society run by bankers and politicians. I still maintain that morality is not the way to attain that goal, even though one's first reaction is to think that it is a matter of morality. If it came down to my own ethics, then yes I would feel that these people who oppress need to adopt a similar idea of equality and basic respect as myself. But it's very difficult to make any change or make an air-tight argument using a term that is subjectively defined. And I still maintain that if we want long term progress for society, we need to step away from immutable ideologies/morality, and take a step forward into a more analytical age where our "beliefs" are constantly mutating.

[SoNotHer]

On break, and looking forward to reading the longer replies here later. But I just got my monthly email from Syracuse Cultural Workers and thought I'd share this in the mean time.

http://syracuseculturalworkers.com/s...pitalism-decay

[atomiczombie]

[atomiczombie]

[atomiczombie]

[Mr.Nobody]

i think i would like to say, IMHO, that without the emotional teenager...there would be a whole lot less really cool things in the world.

there is enough blame to be spread, but the time for blame has long past. the time now is for change. a little less talk perhaps and a lot more action. and if it takes the emotion of a youthful teenager, then so be it.

because the grown ups don't seem to be doing such a great job of things...and really what could be cooler than all things...for all people?

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I looked and I didn't see a thread on this particular subject, so I decided to start one here. I want to have a place to specifically discuss the Occupy Wall Street movement, rallys, and how it is spreading across the nation.

Here is their newly voted on platform/declaration:




I think this movement is tremendously important and it's existence is an inevitable outcome of decades of economic injustices perpetrated by the government, banks and corporations in the US and around the world.

What do you all think about the Occupy Wall Street movement and it's message?

I agree with 90% of what's being stated here. I would add a few more problems to the list. The trade deficit is a huge issue no one has adressed. We import far more than we export, have for years now. We buy more than we sell, can't stay in business long doing that. Common sense. So why is it still happening? The Gov regulates what comes in and out of our ports. The economy is struggling yet we continue to spend more than we make it must stop.
You can't blame big business for taking tax breaks our tax laws afford them. If the IRS told you JQ Public if you make 36300.72 this year, you don't have to pay taxes how many of you would demand that you still pay your fair share. I'm guessing NONE. The problem lies in the tax laws and codes. They need to be changed. I want it to be fair for everyone. Noone tax breaks of any kind for anyone. I think disabled and the elderly should pay no taxes. Everyone else pays a flat tax say 18 cents for every dollar earned. Shrink the gov offices of Irs save money that way, its fair for everyone .

[SoNotHer]

It's a very coherent, directed and needed statement. Thank you for posting this.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

[SoNotHer]

What's interesting about this video is that there are kids in hats and khakis and tie dye, and then you have a couple guys in business attire talking about how their 401Ks were wiped out. It's a big movement, and it's growing.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

[SoNotHer]

I don't disagree with the end of unfair tax breaks, Jagg, or lopsided tax structures that allow for a greater cut of Warren Buffet's secretary's salary to be taken out than his own.

But how you intend to solve the myriad of other issues at stake and at play here? What about the folks who have underwater mortgages? What about those who lost home and property to a medical bankruptcy? What about those who got sold a bill of goods by Enron and the like and invested in a garbage 401K? What about the folks who lost their small stores and businesses when Walmart and company came to town? What about the steel towns like the ones I live and have lived in that watched a thriving main street become a ghost town?

How exactly does an entity like a corporation, that is not only set up to serve itself first and foremost but is actually mandated by law to be responsible first to its owners/stockholders, ever get to decide what's best for all? And now that corporations do in fact run our democracy, how do we effectively reverse that?

Originally Posted by JAGG

I agree with 90% of what's being stated here. I would add a few more problems to the list. The trade deficit is a huge issue no one has adressed. We import far more than we export, have for years now. We buy more than we sell, can't stay in business long doing that. Common sense. So why is it still happening? The Gov regulates what comes in and out of our ports. The economy is struggling yet we continue to spend more than we make it must stop.
You can't blame big business for taking tax breaks our tax laws afford them. If the IRS told you JQ Public if you make 36300.72 this year, you don't have to pay taxes how many of you would demand that you still pay your fair share. I'm guessing NONE. The problem lies in the tax laws and codes. They need to be changed. I want it to be fair for everyone. Noone tax breaks of any kind for anyone. I think disabled and the elderly should pay no taxes. Everyone else pays a flat tax say 18 cents for every dollar earned. Shrink the gov offices of Irs save money that way, its fair for everyone .

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

There are more efficient and better defensible ways to assure that the common person is treated as an equal in a society run by bankers and politicians. I still maintain that morality is not the way to attain that goal, even though one's first reaction is to think that it is a matter of morality. If it came down to my own ethics, then yes I would feel that these people who oppress need to adopt a similar idea of equality and basic respect as myself. But it's very difficult to make any change or make an air-tight argument using a term that is subjectively defined. And I still maintain that if we want long term progress for society, we need to step away from immutable ideologies/morality, and take a step forward into a more analytical age where our "beliefs" are constantly mutating.

You know it’s not so much that I don’t agree with you to a point. It’s more that the majority of people will not, and might even misunderstand what you are saying. And when people don’t understand something or if it seems too different they stop listening. When you are trying to stimulate change I think it is important to have people listen to you. Morality is a language that people understand. It’s not like the danger inherent in that is lost on me. I just think it might be easier to wrest morality from the claws of religion than to ignore the importance of it to a large percentage of the population.

If I want someone to hear me I will speak in a language they understand. If I want someone to understand what I am doing I will use tools with which they are familiar. Morality is important to most people. Statistics show that 70% of the US population wants a president who is moral. Until we can separate morality from religion, in the eyes of most people, moral also means religious. Religious morality is like the bizarro superman of morality. This kind of thing can’t just be ignored (as much as I wish it could.) It needs to be addressed in some acceptable way.

Secular morality is based on logic and reason rather than supernatural revelation. So clearly I’m not saying that logic and education are wrong answers. I’m just saying they are both as open to perversion as morality, especially since in many ways they are the same thing as secular morality. Logic can easily be perverted to meet the needs of fanatics. Education, as important and as useful as it is, will not change the minds of the average religious zealot. We can’t even get them to accept, regardless of all the evidence to the contrary, that the earth is older than 6,000 years. There are some, a great many in fact, who, despite all the scientific proof available showing just the opposite, believe that evolution is wrong. No amount of logic or education is going to change that. But for the sake of the rest of that 70% who believe morals are a measure of a leader we cannot leave morality in the hands of people who refute logic and pervert reason.

As far as equality I don’t think I said anything about equality. I said equity. Equity is the quality of being fair and impartial: "equity of treatment". Which is different from equality which is correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability. There are some ways in which I believe we need to be treated equally of course. But equal in only some ways and to a certain degree because surely logic clearly supports the reality that we certainly are not all equal in all ways.

However, we all deserve equity of treatment. I think that is a moral measure that is not subjective. I believe we need to judge the morality of a belief, a choice, a decision, or a law by how well it adheres to the principles of justice and equity for every individual. You said you believed that “people like Breivik did not need to be incarcerated to the maximum because of morality but because they are a danger to the progress of society which they inhabit.” I think being dangerous to the progress of society is a moral issue. I believe acting in such a way as to be a danger to the progress of society is not a sound moral decision. It is adversely affecting the moral principles of justice and equity for every individual. There are consequences to taking an action that infringes on the rights of another. There are social contracts and you are right there are consequences for breaking them that end in less dignity and less respect for individuals who do engage in actions that are dangerous to the progress of the society they inhabit. But even in this there needs to be a social contract that is humane.

Morality based on equity of treatment for all would not be subjective. Hopefully it would negate any need to define words like dignity, respect and reverence for humanity. It is just an equity of treatment that everyone would like for themselves. If this kind of secular morality were reality then every decision would be reached based on equity and every decision, every choice you make or you support would be one you would be comfortable having done to you and your loved ones.

I doubt the majority of people are comfortable leaving morality out of the conversation when talking about social change. If we, who want to drive change in the direction of logic and reason, the direction of long term progress for society, leave morality out of our discourse, if we concede morality is the language of the opposition, then it will appear to others it is because we do not understand the language. That I believe is doing ourselves a deeply disturbing and dangerous disservice. We do understand the language of morality. We just don’t care for the way it is being spoken at this time. We could help change that.

[Apocalipstic]

Hell, close the IRS completely.

[Corkey]

Make the IRS code one page, no more loopholes. Pay income tax on a simplified formula and make companies pay their fair share. Seems like a no brainer, except the ones without brains are the ones we have in office.

[Corkey]

Dear Mr.,
Thank you for contacting me about campaign finance reform. I appreciate hearing from you.

As you may know, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, overturned a federal ban on independent political advocacy by corporations and unions. I understand your concerns regarding this decision and political activities by outside groups and businesses. That said, the Supreme Court has long upheld that political speech, including the funding thereof, is protected by the First Amendment and is an integral part of our constitutional democracy. It is important that Congress be mindful of these constitutional principles, although I understand your concerns about this issue. Please be assured that I will keep your views in mind as Congress continues reviewing changes to campaign finance laws.

Thank you again for your correspondence. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of assistance.

Sincerely,



Pat Toomey
U.S. Senator, Pennsylvania


This idiot just doesn't get it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Make the IRS code one page, no more loopholes. Pay income tax on a simplified formula and make companies pay their fair share. Seems like a no brainer, except the ones without brains are the ones we have in office.

One of the key factors all along the way of internal revenue reform in the US is just how big and active the tax attorney and certified public accountant lobbys are! This is big business in the US. From H & R Block to online tax prep services. This industry has made a lot of money on how complex just filing income tax can be for even people that are by no means wealthy, and want to reduce their tax liability by utilizing breaks that they are entitled too. Things like deductions for educators or mortgage interest, having a home office, etc.

These folks do not want a simplified tax code- don't want "just folks" to be able to file a simple return with their check if they owe. This is a billion dollar business in the US. Mention a flat tax toan accountant and hear them stutter!!