Making Amends...Question/Input request

[Ginger]

I don't think it's about the recipient of the apology; their response doesn't really matter.

I think it's about the act of making amends.



I could be wrong.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Ginger

I don't think it's about the recipient of the apology; their response doesn't really matter.

That's pretty much what I said as well. In the end, it's them having to forgive themselves and move on either with the relationships or without.
It's not really about my answer.

[Cin]

Step Eight: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Step Nine: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

For example if I stole or borrowed money from you to get high and never payed you back, I can apologize for doing that, but that's an apology not an amends. If I want to make amends I will give you back the money. That is an amends.

You never make an amends to someone if doing so would harm them or others. You don't go and tell your spouse or your partner that you cheated on them when you were high or drunk or that you had an affair with the neighbor. That just relieves you of your guilt. You need to carry that guilt and don't do anything like that again, that is your amends. You cannot hurt others with your amends.

Direct amends may not be possible for a variety of reasons. An amend has to do with restoring justice as much as possible. The idea is to "restore in a direct way that which we have broken or damaged--or to make restoration in a symbolic way if we can't do it directly."

If you do steps 8 and 9 the way it was meant this is the promise "If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace." This is the point of doing your eighth and ninth step. If you are making amends expecting forgiveness then you are doing it for the wrong reason. You have missed something vital. Having others forgive us is not the goal. Not at all. It's not even necessary that the amends be acknowledged, only that it is made. And it should only be made after we have thought long and hard about the possible consequences and talked it over with someone objective, likely our sponsor so we can be clear on our motive for making the amends.

An amends from someone in the Program is to you, but it is not about you at all. When you make an amends you need to be open to any response you get from people you've injured. It's not about manipulating them into forgiving you. And the person given the amends has a right to refuse to participate. Not responding is a perfectly acceptable choice. There is nothing required of you. There is no amends etiquette for the person who is being given an amends.

That said everyone has to do what is comfortable for them. Be true to yourself.

[Zimmeh]

Buenas Noche Pajama,

I have a best friend that I've known for nearly 28 years. Her and I were roommates back from 2010-2011. After going through a nervous breakdown, I myself tried to understand what caused this. I realized that I had to forgive so many people from my past before I allowed myself to heal. When I was finally finding my happiness, she would continue to bring up the skeletons from our past. I kept telling her that I didn't want to think about the past and wanted to view my future. When I decided to move back to Orlando, she used every secret and painful memory against me. Five years later, I'm still not to happy with how she handled my decision to continue my growth. I've since all but forgiven her.

I would also sit down, write this person a letter and get out your frustrations. Then in a few days reread that letter and see how you feel. I'm sending you a huge hug and hope you find your peace with this.

Zimmeh

[firegal]

Harder [takes more energy] to hold a grudge than to let it go.

human beings make mistakes...sometimes hurtfull ones.

what I am today isn't even close to what I was 20 years ago....thank god my good friends look at me in TODAY eyes and not yesteryears!

all u can do is the best u can today... what ever your answer/truth is!

[Medusa]

Ohhhhhhhh sheeeeeesh! This is a complex one (but thank Goddess for a "meaty" thread!)

Yanno, I had an amends-type of situation happen a couple of years ago that left me with red-ass (pissy!). So, I had a friend who did some really shitty stuff like breaking confidences, making hateful comments, and just being a giant asshole. but the main issue was a really crappy ability to disrespect my boundaries. I bid them a farewell and let them know directly that I didn't want to be friends with them anymore because of their behavior (toxic, mean-spirited, etc.)

They came back about a year later and sent me an amends email telling me they were working their program and wanted to let me know they were sorry for x, y, z and yadda yadda. I'll be honest, it felt like a violation of my boundaries all over again and this was probably flamed by the wording of the amends email where I was left feeling "blamed" for their behavior (verbiage like "I did this because I felt like you weren't giving me enough attention")

Now, with this said I have also received a very lovely and sincere amends from someone that did not feel invasive but the person was still someone I did not want to resume a relationship with.

In both cases I asked myself what would be the thing I could do that would leave my energy as clean as possible. Not necessarily to let the other person "off the hook" or even give them any space with me, but just a way to pinball off of one another with no damage to each other.

My response to both of them, "Thank you. I wish you well."

I was able to get to that place because I believed both of those folks to be struggling with something out of their control. And you know what, I don't even need to know that people are struggling to be able to say, "Best wishes to you" but if I feel it, I say it.

Acknowledging them does not open the door to them to re-enter your life. But if you think they might see it that way, I could definitely understand why no response at all would be warranted.

[Femmadian]

Originally Posted by Medusa

[...]
They came back about a year later and sent me an amends email telling me they were working their program and wanted to let me know they were sorry for x, y, z and yadda yadda. I'll be honest, it felt like a violation of my boundaries all over again [...]

<snip>

Acknowledging them does not open the door to them to re-enter your life. But if you think they might see it that way, I could definitely understand why no response at all would be warranted.

Story time!

Once upon a time, I had a similar situation. I had someone in my life a few years ago who was a friend, not extremely close but close enough. When I first met them, they were sober and quite honest/blunt about some of the horrible things they did when they weren't, how it affected their life and the lives of the people they loved, and how difficult it was to regain their life after that. I admired them for their honesty and for the depth that their struggle added to their character. Things were going great for them... until they experienced the death of someone very close to them and it sent them spiralling back into drinking after several years of sobriety.

I tried to be supportive and a good friend to them for quite some time until they started hanging out with old drinking buddies and then suddenly started spewing some really hateful, racist shit from seemingly out of nowhere. I limited my time with them and tried to gently call them out when it felt safe to do so, but ultimately it fell on deaf ears and it was hard to both watch them come undone and also to hear the bullshit coming out of their mouth.

Without going into too much detail, it culminated in one particularly ugly incident where I didn't even recognize the monster spewing hate in front of me who had replaced the person I once knew.

While at first I was torn on whether to cut off all ties or to try to stand by and get through to them, at one point I realized "you know what, I've said a lot of ugly, nasty shit in my less-than-stellar moments and there are a lot of things I'm ashamed of, but I've never said anything like that." Everyone has their own line to be crossed. I would not expect other people to forgive me, much less keep me in their life if I said what they'd said, and I figured, if I wouldn't excuse it in myself, why would I excuse it in them?

Ultimately, like Medusa, I "ovaried up," confronted them directly, said what I felt needed to be said, the reasons I was cutting them out, told them not to contact me again, and then left it at that.

I felt guilty about it for a long time because I felt like I failed them as a friend in that I wasn't patient enough to have those hard conversations with them and engage them in what they said. Instead, I employed a scorched earth policy and let them have it and I assumed that was the end of it until I got one of those emails like you, pajama, claiming that they were in a program and getting their life together, the last time we spoke was a dark time for them, they were sorry for being such an ass, blah blah blah.

I sent what I felt was a fairly boiler plate response ("that's great to hear, glad you're making positive changes in your life, I appreciate the gesture, I know it's not easy but I wish you the best," etc etc.) and I thought it was done. They looked at it as an opening back into my life and to resume a friendship that, to me, was long gone. After several ignored attempts to meet up and a few somewhat passive aggressive emails, they finally sent me one which said things like "look, I said I was sorry, okay? What more do you want from me?" and "I thought this meant you forgave me" and "I hope you never are in a position where you have to ask for forgiveness" and finally "y'know, karma's only a bitch if you are..."

If my view of them and our once friendship wasn't already poisoned forever, it certainly was now.

I'll spare you the details of my blistering email to just note that one thing to keep in mind (and one thing I learned from this experience) is that with particularly manipulative, narcissistic, or otherwise toxic people, grand gestures in the way of apologies can also be a way of guilt tripping and weaselling their way back into your life (for whatever reason). Not saying that's what this is but something to keep in mind just generally.

I'd also like to echo what others have said about it not being your responsibility to give them any acknowledgment at all, no matter how much you respect the program. Making amends is on the person needing to make them, not on anyone else (especially those they have hurt), if "amends" are even possible, which, depending on the circumstances, they very well might not be. I would gently say that your respect for the program does not have to result in you opening yourself up to old wounds or potentially new ones.

Me, I'm okay with holding a grudge if it means protecting myself. Personally, I've learned I don't forgive so easily. I don't think admitting that is a bad thing either. It just means I'm honest and self-aware enough to know this about myself. My emotional borders are a bit more porous than those of others and I need to act accordingly as an act of self-care.

I really don't subscribe to the popular notion that this makes me or anyone else like me a bad person. We all have a duty to protect ourselves and our emotional well-being and to me, it would be foolish to not take into account previous behaviour when deciding how (or even whether) to go forward with someone.

Ultimately you have to do what's right for you, and that includes protecting yourself (in whatever form that may end up taking).

TL;DR: you're not a bad person if you don't reply. You're not a bad person if you do reply. Not all people are genuine in these attempts and even if they are, you owe them nothing. The only person you owe anything to is yourself, and only you know what that is.

Good luck!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Miss Tick, I seem to have lost my answer... But in a nutshell, "yes. Indeed. Thank you for stating that."

[GeorgiaMa'am]

I agree that a brief "thank you, best wishes" response is probably best. Although you could take the opportunity to express your honest feelings that you are not ready to forgive, and that you respect the program, etc., anything of that nature may only invite re-involvement. I wouldn't want to encourage this person to reply with anything like more apologies, or blame, or explanations, or rehashing of past issues; so I wouldn't "add any fuel to the fire" by giving them something to react to.

Good luck. I wish for you a lack of drama.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Femnadian, I enjoyed that post. I personally do not want amends of any sort from those I have excused myself from. I always leave the door ajar for people to come back unless I have been more than pateint and tolerant (see previous reference to my past codependancy behaviours). That has left me vulnerable to all kinds of binge drinkers, alcoholics, drug addicts, narcissists and all sorts. Because I didn't protect and care for myself first. I always put thoughts about others peoples feelings before my own.

But surely being kind and considering someone else's possible hurt feelings is the right thing to do. Momma always raised me to be a polite girl first, above all else.

Which of course, I inherited a lot of codependancy behaviour from.

I personally do not think knowing your own boundaries, taking care of yourself and doing what's best for you *first* is holding a grudge. Holding a grudge means you are still angry, you want some kind of payment even if it's just that the other person suffers quietly in a mud puddle after being shot onto an asteroid and never to return.

I don't hold grudges. I'm not that kind of person. Occasionally I will feel that way for a while, then I will do my own work, get over myself eventually and move on. However, I have given people in my life far too many third and fourth and fifth chances. If it's one of those people who have given me years of damage, in which it has taken me *years* of work to move on from, or I have put up with narcissistic personality collateral damage... No. They do not get a letter from me. Granted I have only *once* in my whole life had someone ask me for forgiveness and tried to make amends for the damages he caused.

But you can't make amends for the kind of damage that he caused. It just isn't possible. Decades of work was needed on my part to get past many things and other things I just have had to learn to live with, and around, as they are a part of me now. There is no amends. I don't wish him harm. I don't want him to suffer. I hope he is cared for. I know he is loved and for that I am glad. But there is no letter I would answer and no amends to be made. I do not want any form of payment there for I do not believe I hold a grudge and I forgive him as much as is humanly possible, considering what was done to me. I do not want anything at all from him but for him to leave me alone. Period. No contact.

That he may have hurt feelings over that? I'm afraid that is just part of what he will have to work through on his own journey. It is not my concern.

That is why I think if you do answer and say good luck, be extremely clear that you do not wish for them to be in your life at this point. Which will probably hurt. But you need to aknowledge them for your own sense of "what's not hinky" (lol) then do so. Just be very clear you do not want them in your life. If you don't explicitly say that, "I hope you do well and best of luck" doesn't actually say if you want to speak to them or not. Trying to send "polite, unspoken messages to avoid hurt" is what gets a lot of us in trouble (read: me and my past of not being explicit and afraid of being rude and hurtful).

So be blunt. Be clear. And do not leave room for misinterpretation that you will have to deal with later because you were "polite".

IMO.

[WolfyOne]

This has been a great topic, my friend
Not only to help you get answers, but to make some of us aware, if it ever comes knocking on our door.
I can't add a thing because I am a forgiver and I don't hold grudges. Even if I never tell you I forgive you, I put it out in the Universe and let it go. I don't keep people like that in my life because the cycle has a chance of starting again. Life is short and moving forward is all any of us can do. I wasn't always like this, but age, time and lessons learned or burned have taught me well.

You have a BIG, decent, honest heart and I know you'll think about all the input you've received here and will send a short email to acknowledge it. No acceptance is needed by you. The program is theirs to work and even if you never send an email to them, they need to continue their steps.

[pajama]

Again, thank you everyone for the wonderful input. It was exactly what I needed. Lots of differing points of view.

I did respond, and went with the short I appreciate it, glad your getting happy/healthy, best wishes. Aaaaand done. I hope. LOL

I've never had this happen before so it really threw me for a loop. I gained alot of good insights from you all.

Once again, I am so grateful for this community.

A