Loving a Transman Isn't Easy

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by betenoire

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

Yep, I have experienced something similar.

Was not impressed.

[Random]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

For you yes. For me I have no expectations of this being a private space to have a conversation. As long as those participating are respectful then I am ok with it. I don't expect anyone to take a backseat.

How I read Bets post was...

All are welcome, but please remember that this IS in the femme zone. The topic is how partners of transpeople might be conflicted or feel less than positive about their partners transition.

I read it as, please participate but don't make it all about the trans experience from the trans side of it..

[DapperButch]

The OP did not state whether it is open for FTMs/transguys/others to post. I think that is typically the way we determine if others identities are welcome to post in a particular zone. I think that lettertodaddy needs to come back to say what is her preference. My guess is that she doesn't really have an investment in who posts in this thread, but it would be helpful if she came back and stated it clearly <waving to lettertodaddy>

For ME the way I approach threads that do not state the above is to tread lightly until I see how (in this case) femmes respond to other genders/identifiers posting. If it seems cool (which it has in this thread), then I may post. However, I still tend to feel like I need to "take a backseat" to the gender's/identifier's (in this case femmes) that the thread is in (and it does seem to ME that overall that is happening here...meaning the thread isn't being "taken over" by those who do not identify as femme).

ETA: My second paragarph is similar to what Random posted. I wrote my post prior to reading her post, but that covers mostly what I meant.

Originally Posted by betenoire

So long as the transpeople in question can go ahead and take a backseat since this is the Femme zone.

[The_Lady_Snow]

There are 102 replies to this thread 34 by butches and transmen the rest ate femme or women. That's hardly a take over. I still feel it's ok that some people have come into say that hurtful verbiage is not ok to just skip over. It's not something some people are willing to sweep under the rug, I can express my feelings all I want about the men in my life but certainly not in ugly words & derogatory slurs.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I guess it hurts more coming from a queer person.

I find this true. The same statement or accusation can come from outside the community and I be fine with it (aka don't get my feathers ruffled by it) or can ignore the person or people saying it but when it comes from within the community, the wounds are far deeper and slower to heal. It truly does hurt more.

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I think it is difficult to have dialogue about anything without varying perspectives and points of view. I always read the differently ID'd zones and I have posted in zones that were not my own identity.

That said, I do wonder if people, in general, do mind that we all, at one time or another, post in zones that we do not ID.

Should we keep some spaces only for those that the zone ID's specifically, in that space? How would it even be policed?

This would be a good poll, I think.

This discussion has come and gone a number of times over the years. I'm not sure if there was ever a definitive decision on it but you are right in that policing it would be a logistical nightmare and not everyone plays nicely or shares well, especially if it's a hot topic.

Originally Posted by Random

How I read Bets post was...

All are welcome, but please remember that this IS in the femme zone. The topic is how partners of transpeople might be conflicted or feel less than positive about their partners transition.

I read it as, please participate but don't make it all about the trans experience from the trans side of it..

I read her that way too.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

The OP did not state whether it is open for FTMs/transguys/others to post. I think that is typically the way we determine if others identities are welcome to post in a particular zone. I think that lettertodaddy needs to come back to say what is her preference. My guess is that she doesn't really have an investment in who posts in this thread, but it would be helpful if she came back and stated it clearly <waving to lettertodaddy>

Now I'm certainly not trying to answer for anybody who is not me, but the OP -did- thank the post where atomiczombie pointed out that this thread is likely in the femme zone for a reason.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by lettertodaddy

I posted this in the femme zone instead of the trans zone because it was written by a femme whose "perfect masculine woman" began transitioning to male four months after they married. I posted it because I've not read many transitioning stories written from a femme's perspective.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/...asy-10868.aspx

The OP does NOT clarify if butches/guys/bois/boys/ can or can't give imput in the convo nor has she till this point. Now have there been differences in opinions yes, have people pointed out verbiage yes.

105 posts later and 34 posts are made by non femmes and have been done so in a conducive manner.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

First of all, I want to apologize for posting here since it's the Femme Zone and I am not femme.

Secondly, I want to say to the guys who have posted here: do you not see that this is the femme zone and the OP started the thread here for a reason? I think we should let the femmes have their place to discuss this. Yes, I know the topic is very relevant to us transguys. However, it's not about transguys. It is about femme partners and their feelings. Let the femmes have their space.


Respectfully,


Drew

P.S. You all can flame me now.

No flames from me. I absolutely appreciate your saying this.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I went and checked out her personal blog, and I promise she's still talking. I'm glad about that.

Oh good. Is her blog linked in the article? I didn't see it. Can you direct me?

What I am -not- glad about is the part where I read that some jerk actually went so far as to email her husband to talk about what a horrible giant meanie pants transphobe she is. That's inappropriate behaviour right there. Whoever did that is a jackass.

Weren't we *just* having a conversation about that sort of thing?

I disagree so incredibly strongly with what you said. She's not talking about not getting to say "omg you have mangina!" without being called transphobic. She's talking about not getting to admit that she's hurt and not 100% on board without being called transphobic. Those are two different things.

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Example: I am transphobic because I said that playing the "is that a new hair?" game is not a fun way to spend my time. No, it wasn't a transperson I heard that from - it was somebodies girlfriend.

Because that's how it fucking works. The expectation is that we leap around excitedly. It's almost like an olympics of proving how exceptionally accepting and supportive we are. And any time that somebody doesn't do "dating a transperson" correctly everybody else gets to lift themselves up higher at their expense.

All of this.

It happens from all sides. The support group I was banned from started out being just for non-trans partners. Then some of the trans partners felt excluded, like they weren't allowed in the group because there was something "wrong" with them. Well, no, they weren't allowed because the group wasn't for them. But they put up a stink, and no one wanted to be called transphobic, so they were allowed into the group with the caveat that they were just there to observe and the group was still a safe space for partners to talk about their feelings. Then a few of the trans partners felt "silenced" by that caveat, and you know we can't have that. I entered the group while all of this was going on, and it didn't take long at all for it to become clear that while the group's mission statement said it was a safe space for partners of transfolk to discuss their feelings, it was anything but. There was a faction in the group who seemed to be there solely to lie in wait for someone to say something they didn't like so they could pounce. By the time I was banned, the group had turned almost entirely into a competition to prove who could be the most supportive of trans people and call out the most transphobia. It certainly wasn't a place where any partner of a person in transition could express that they weren't feeling so great about that.

I found the same thing all over town. There were at the time 4 or 5 in-person support groups in Portland that I was able to track down, and every one had an inclusive policy that pretty well defeated the purpose of a support group for me. The whole concept of partners discussing transition and related issues out of earshot of trans people was apparently offensive. I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too.

I'm glad to hear that there are such groups elsewhere, but I didn't have access to any of them.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

Oh good. Is her blog linked in the article? I didn't see it. Can you direct me?

I put it in your rep notes just now.

Weren't we *just* having a conversation about that sort of thing?

YES!

Also some obnoxious people have followed her to her blog to yell at her in the comments. I want to find each one of them and do them bodily harm.

I hope that nobody HERE is harassing her. And if you are, know this: I don't fucking like you.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

I asked a couple of the organizers of those groups if they knew of any groups that were *just* for non-trans partners, and I got called transphobic for that, too.

I forgot to respond to this part. I almost choked on my coffee when I read it!

Because, honestly, it is wildly inappropriate that these groups operate any other way. They SHOULD be just for non-trans partners. PERHAPS if the trans partners weren't always fucking THERE in those groups people would tone down the performative "look how supportive and happy I am!" rhetoric and just be honest for 30 seconds.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by betenoire

And I've got news for you: there really is a culture of shame around our honest feelings about our partners. i've been on message boards, email lists, newsgroups, and in-person "SOFFA" groups and not once have I seen an environment where it's not okay for us to not be 100% okay. I'm not talking about transpeople creating a hostile environment for partners who have misgivings - I'm talking about us doing it to each other.

Just snipped part of what I need to address.

I, too, had a poor experience on a SOFFA group.

I expressed some concerns/anxieties and out of hundreds of members maybe two responded and I didn't feel very supported.

Also, there were transfolks that posted in the SOFFA group. I didn't feel comfortable with that b/c I wanted to share my personal thoughts/feelings about this experience, and I felt I had to censor myself b/c I might hurt someone's feelings.

If it is a group for SOFFA's why do I have to worry about what the transfolks thought of my thoughts? Then again, reading the past posts from the SOFFA partners, I also noticed there seemed to be an emphasis on how we can SUPPORT and cheerlead our partner's transition and not enough concern for the non-transitioning partner.

[julieisafemme]

I am so sorry to hear that so many people have had bad experiences in these groups. The group I attended was a facilitated group led by a therapist. It was small and you had to pay. We met once a month. There were only non- trans partners allowed. I would not want to participate in an online support group. I have too much trouble figuring things out and would surely say something that would piss people off. That does not happen in person. The group I was in was the only one like it. I have participated in other non-facilitated support groups before for OCD and those did not go well for me. I think maybe sometimes it helps to have a facilitator in difficult conversations. I am so sorry that so many other partners have experienced this.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am so sorry to hear that so many people have had bad experiences in these groups. The group I attended was a facilitated group led by a therapist. It was small and you had to pay. We met once a month. There were only non- trans partners allowed. I would not want to participate in an online support group. I have too much trouble figuring things out and would surely say something that would piss people off. That does not happen in person. The group I was in was the only one like it. I have participated in other non-facilitated support groups before for OCD and those did not go well for me. I think maybe sometimes it helps to have a facilitator in difficult conversations. I am so sorry that so many other partners have experienced this.

I am glad you found a group to attend in real life and with a therapist--you are lucky.

I think it is safe to assume that most of us live in areas where we, unfortunately, don't have access to such groups and the only resources/forums are online.

I'm envious that you live in a area that is progressive and has multiple options for those who are trans and their partners, but, of course, also happy for you in that you have such resources that work for you.

[Quintease]

All of the above explains a lot.

When we first got together my husband and I tried to find a support group for me to join, but nothing. Ironically that search eventually led me here.

I did wonder why there wasn't a single support group when actually I know quite a few lesbians in relationships with transguys, both there from pre and post transition. It makes sense that groups fail to survive if they initially fail to provide a safe space.

Then again, is it the spaces or the partners themselves that are at fault? I know through personal experience that an FTM partner could potentially be the one to stab me in the back if she felt I was expressing an 'unacceptable' opinion.

Nor would I be likely to join a support group which granted my husband access. It should be an outlet for me to vent, free from the fear of hurting my relationship or his feelings.

I may just stick to writing down my thoughts and feelings here, tempered in the knowledge that all of my words are public property.

[nycfem]

MODERATION

A post was reported for possible concern regarding threatening language against other members. Mods have discussed, and the conclusion is:

Please remember that even though it might be being used as a figure of speech without any real intentions, it is against the TOS to make references to doing physical injury to others. Please take care to avoid these types of statements in the future.

Thank you.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I forgot to respond to this part. I almost choked on my coffee when I read it!

Because, honestly, it is wildly inappropriate that these groups operate any other way. They SHOULD be just for non-trans partners. PERHAPS if the trans partners weren't always fucking THERE in those groups people would tone down the performative "look how supportive and happy I am!" rhetoric and just be honest for 30 seconds.

This. Seriously. Could you imagine if you were in therapy and your partner demanded to come to your sessions to monitor what you were saying? Or if they got access to your therapist's notes so they could bring up things you'd said in your "safe space" later on in an argument? I really doubt that anyone would think that was okay, but apparently in this case it's supposed to be okay.

The really sad thing is that my experience was in Portland, OR. We have a huge LGBT community here. Sometimes I think the transmen in this town outnumber the female ID butches (they probably don't, but it feels that way on occasion). I think part of the problem here is that we've gone so far to the other side of the pendulum swing. So many people just don't have any access to support groups at all. Here, there are so many they're competing with each other, and they all seem to have decided the way to compete is by being the very most inclusive of all the inclusive groups. A large part of the Portland ethic is that you can never, ever be exclusionary about anything, ever. That sounds great on the surface, but what it actually translates to is hundreds of groups that aren't actually *about* anything. We have knitting clubs where half the members don't knit, cooking clubs where half the members don't cook, I recently joined the campus Queer Club, and only about 1/3 of the membership is actually LGBT. It used to be called something like LGBT Students of {college} but they changed it to Queer Club because people felt excluded. Because, you know, we're inclusive and that means it doesn't matter what the group is actually for, everyone who feels like coming is welcome whether they care about the stated purpose of the group or not.

[lettertodaddy]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Now I'm certainly not trying to answer for anybody who is not me, but the OP -did- thank the post where atomiczombie pointed out that this thread is likely in the femme zone for a reason.

Yeah, I can speak for myself.

I thanked atomiczombie for hys post because I appreciated the sensitivity hy showed by realizing that this thread was posted in the Femme Zone, and as such, maybe it would be more appropriate for the discussion to take place among femmes only. I don't agree or disagree, I just wanted to thank hym for recognizing that it might be an issue for some folks.

As for me, this isn't my site, and I'm not interested in policing the thread. If others feel that this thread is best left to femmes only, I trust that they'll take that up with the site admins. I don't have a horse in this race one way or the other.

[lettertodaddy]

I also want to say without appearing flip that the only reason I posted this in the Femme zone was because the article was because it was from the POV of a femme involved with a transman. I don't want it to seem like I did it to exclude other voices or contributions, but that considering the subject and perspective, the Femme Zone seemed like the best place to post it.

[Words]

Blue isn't a transman but Hy's had top surgery and is on T, neither of which would have been possible were it not for Hys regular visits to a London based gender clinic.

The worst part of the whole experience from my point of view (apart from the awful mood swings that I put down to Blue being on the wrong medication)? Receiving a copy of the letter sent by the gender clinic psychologist to O/our family doctor and realizing that the most intimate details of my relationship with Blue in general and O/our sex life in particular were now no longer private. I was angry with the psychologist, I was angry with the system that made sharing the information a necessity, and for a time, yes, I was very resentful of the fact that no one - including Blue - had sought my permission to talk about things that related to my life as much as they related to Blue's (I still question the ethics of this and honestly feel that somewhere along the line, my permission should have been sought.)

Apart from that, no complaints whatsoever (apart from the 'man sweat' socks - those are nasty)

Words