Casey Anthony - guilty, or not?

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by scootebaby

1).IMHO, a liar as skilled as Casey (or any person for that matter) is NOT born that way. I strongly believe lying is a learned/taught behavior.

This might be getting a little off track, but I don't believe lying is learned if associated with a personality disorder - such as a narcissistic personality disorder. Pathological liars don't even know they are lying because they believe everything they come up with. One major exhibition of this is whenever she was questioned about Caylee, she became extremely agitated and shifted the attention back to her "victimization".

Look at Diane Downs, who shot her three children. Even after her surviving daughter called her out on the stand, she still to this day proclaims her innocence. IMHO, Casey exhibits a close psychological resemblance.

ETA: Downs also alleged that her father sexually abused and molested her. Hmm, go figure.

[cinderella]

Woody, I agree with what you've said here. You're prob right about having used choriform for a while, and this one time it backfired.

The analogy Scoote made above - about breaking a precious object, and being scrared to death over it, is a good one. What, (as children) would most of us do in that situation? I know I would try to hide the fragments of the broken object, then act as if nothing had happened - and that's exactly what I think Casey did - she broke it (the child), then tried to hide her crime. In doing so, however, I think she had to have had help - I can't see her taking the body into the woods, digging a hole, and burying it all by herself - someone else had to be involved...the boyfriend, a family member.

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

I think Casey is guilty of being negligent of Caylee and the other 5 counts against her dealing with lying to the police, FBI, and so on. As for murder, I am on the fence. I think Casey was using the Cloriform long before Caylee died. I think she od-ed Caylee on the Cloriform in order to go out with her b/f. Something happened this time, and she killed her child. She should have just gone right to the police, hospital, aunt, uncle, brother - Lee, just someone.

Casey threw her family under the tires of the industrial trucks. Her parents had no involvement with this.

I also think Casey needs some sort of mental health help. It will be interesting to listen to the 3 therapists tell the court how they found her sane.

I think the jury picked a foreperson, and made decisions on the first counts already. I am sure they are tired of the case already. I just cannot imagine being sequestered this long.

[cinderella]

Keep in mind that Casey's mother, Cindy, lied about doing an online search for chloroform, to protect her daughter. Why wouldn't she lie about Caylee's 'Zanny' story?

This woman is torn - she lost her grandchild, and now she may lose her daughter as well. She wants justice for her grandchild, but if she knows that Casey is responsible for Caylee's death, she fears compromising her daughter, and at the same time knows she must be punished. It is a hellish situation to be in - no wonder she broke down on the witness stand!

Originally Posted by scootebaby

Heres a question/thought....if there was no Zanny why did Caylee actually tell her grandma she went to Zannys? Does noone remember that little snippet? she was 2..unable to lie to that degree so there HAD to be someone she identified as Zanny.

i mean if u watch Cindy Anthonys testimony and earlier tv appearances she discusses the fact she talked to Caylee about this.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by cinderella

Woody, I agree with what you've said here. You're prob right about having used choriform for a while, and this one time it backfired. The analogy Scoote made above - about breaking a precious object, and being scrared to death over it, is a good one. What, in my opionion, would most of us do in that situation? I know I would try to hide the fragments of the broken object, then act as if nothing had happened - and that's exactly what I think Casey did - she broked it (the child), then tried to hind her crime. In doing so, however, I think she had to have had help - I can't see her taking the body into the woods, digging a hold, and burying it, all by herself - someone else had to be involved...the boyfriend, a family member?

I think she could.

Honestly, this trial has been pretty mind-blowing for me to watch...because, having grown up with a narcissist, an awful lot of it felt familiar.

I've heard a lot of people say Casey is a sociopath. I'm not sure if she is (not being a mental health professional and never having met the woman), but she sure feels like a narcissist to me.

The videos and phone calls from jail....when everything is about her...what she wants, how she's being victimized, no one understands her....her, her, her. It's as if her child is an afterthought...not the important part of all this. For Casey, the tragedy is not that Caylee is dead...the tragedy is what's happened to her...how she's been victimized.

Her tears in court....seemingly feigned, or at least very minor, when talking about Caylee....real and visceral when they're talking about her.

Narcissists can love their children (and other people), but it's a weird, twisted kind of love that exists only so long as the other reflects well on them or meets their needs...and can be shut down in an instant when the other becomes a liability or an inconvenience.

I kept flashing back to sitting across a table from my mother, as a young adult in college, having a cup of tea and listen to her calmly discussing how she had frequently thought and fantasized about killing my sister and I, and then herself....but then saying that she didn't really want to kill herself...she wanted to live and be single and not a mother...and she didn't know how she could kill us and get away with it....so she just did "what she had to do"...and kind of started thinking of us as roommates that she couldn't kick out instead.

And then she laughed...in genuine amusement at her own cleverness.

Don't underestimate what narcissists can rationalize, and do, when it suits their own needs.

Having said that....I believe that narcissists can be made. I also believe that the children of narcissists can either become enablers/targets of narcissists...or narcissists themselves. I do the one; my sister does the other. I struggle not to attach to and enable narcissists. My sister rationalized dumping her daughter at age 5, her son at age 13, admittedly on their father (thank goodness) and rarely seeing or thinking about them again...and will tell you with a straight face that she's a good mother who "delighted in raising her kids" (her words). She can say it with a straight face because she believes it herself.

I believe that Casey may very well have been abused, molested, victimized in her own family of origin. She may have had a hellish life that we don't know about. I'll give her that benefit of the doubt.

I just don't think that's an excuse for what she did.

[cinderella]

Ms Sunshyne, whether we agree or not, EVERYONE'S opinion counts as far as I'm concerned. Thank you for your posts, please continue telling us what's on your mind - I for one, am interested in knowing.

Originally Posted by little_ms_sunshyne

I think that Casey Anthony's actions make it hard to not believe she is guilty. However, the state has to prove that she is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Much like many others, I do not believe the state has done a great job of doing so. Everthing is circumstantial.

In regards to this turning into a circus....One of my very best friends lost her grandparents a few years back. They were murdered. The media made a circus of that case as well. I remember how hard it was for her to even turn on the television. Channel after channel..that is all she saw. Images of her grandparents being taken away in body bags and detailed descriptions of how they were murdered. She felt as if though she could not escape from the nightmare, not even in her own home.

I am guilty of following the case and being interested legality and forensics aspect of it. But I do hope that these families are able to find closure and that they may be able to finally mourn the loss of this little girl.

Anyhow, that is my two cents worth of nothing.

[cinderella]

I am in total agreement with what you've said here. Very well thought out and sensible. You should've been a lawyer!

The part you posted about what Casey was doing while her child was supposedly missing, is key. I've never had children, but judging from the way my mom was with us 3 kids, and how she protected us with the ferocity of a lioness with her cubs...I can well understand how a mother feels if her child is missing - even for a second! So yeah, Casey's behavior during those 31 days is just not right - how could any mother do that??!! It is very telling of her guilt!

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I can't see a retired police officer doing anything to cover up a truly accidental death. That doesn't make any kind of sense.

Even if Casey was negligent and it resulted in a truly accidental death, her father (as a retired cop) would know that people aren't generally held responsible for that...and I believe he would have reported it.

Yes, I think the whole family is an amazingly sad dysfunctional unit...with Casey a pathological liar, and her family enabling it for years...and, apparently, doing some lying of their own as well.

The critical piece for me, if I was sitting on that jury, is her actions in the 31 days when her child was "missing." For me, that spells guilt. Maybe I'm close-minded or whatever....but I once lost track of my son when he was 2-1/2, in the Borders bookstore at the mall (he liked to play hide and seek and I didn't realize he was "playing" with me at that moment)...and I was a screaming banshee of a wreck within about 2 minutes flat.

More importantly, when my son finally popped up and said "boo mommy" and laughed....and I started breathing normally again...I apologized to everyone I had alarmed in the immediate area of the store. And every single one of them reacted with something along the lines of "oh no, I would be freaked out too, you're fine."

Everyone understands a mom whose child is missing and who is freaked out, screaming for help, calling the cops, losing her mind.

How does a parent not report a missing 2 or 3 year old for over a month?

And how does that parent go party, dance, drink and get a tattoo that reads "Bella Vita" while they believe their toddler is missing?

I know that the defense tried to paint that as her dysfunctional form of grief....but I just don't buy it.

[Medusa]

I havne't been watching the case but I have caught a few random clips here and there.

Can someone tell me what the discussion or line of questioning was about how Caylee's body got to the woods? Did the prosecution claim that Casey put it there? What did the defense claim?

Did I read somewhere that the defense claimed that the Dad put it in the woods?

I didnt watch closing arguments but I would have heavily stressed that Casey partied for 31 solid days as her child's body lay decaying in the woods. I probably would have juxtaposed photos of Casey in the "Hot Body" contest with photos of Caylee's corpse.

[NJFemmie]

That is the mystery. It's claimed that the body was stashed in the trunk of Casey's car before it was placed in the woods.

The prosecution has maintained Casey put her daughter Caylee's body in the trunk of her Pontiac Sunfire before hiding it in the woods.


Anthony's attorneys have said Casey's father George Anthony helped her dispose of the girl's body. Then later, a meter reader moved the body into the woods.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

That is the mystery. It's claimed that the body was stashed in the trunk of Casey's car before it was placed in the woods.

The prosecution has maintained Casey put her daughter Caylee's body in the trunk of her Pontiac Sunfire before hiding it in the woods.


Anthony's attorneys have said Casey's father George Anthony helped her dispose of the girl's body. Then later, a meter reader moved the body into the woods.

Oh interesting! They are claiming that a meter reader moved the body? Did the prosecution ever shred that or offer motive as to why somoene would move a body?

To me, it's important to know how her body got to the woods and who put it there. And wasn't that wooded area pretty close to the Anthony home?

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Oh interesting! They are claiming that a meter reader moved the body? Did the prosecution ever shred that or offer motive as to why somoene would move a body?

To me, it's important to know how her body got to the woods and who put it there. And wasn't that wooded area pretty close to the Anthony home?

Prosecution did try and debunk any theories that defense tried to impose. But what I don't get is, why did Kronk's (?) wait four (?) months to FINALLY get someone to uncover the body ... especially when he knew it was a body four months beforehand....?? And yes, the body was found about 1/4 mile away from the Anthony home - very near the roadside in fact. It wasn't like it was buried deep in the woods.

Ashton acknowledged that the state chose not to call Roy Kronk, the man who found the remains, as a witness, and he suggested that was because Kronk’s story cannot be trusted. “Roy likes to spin a good yarn,” he said. What Kronk claimed happened on December 11, 2008, including the skull rolling out of the bag when he picked it up, was impossible, he claimed.
He also said that he did not believe Kronk just happened upon the location for a second time four months after he called police about it in August. Instead, he suggested that Kronk revealed the location when he did to impress his son, who he had recently reconnected with and who testified that Kronk told him he knew where the remains were in November 2008.
Even if parts of Kronk’s story cannot be believed, Ashton said, that does not make him the morally bankrupt individual the defense portrayed him as. It did not make him someone “who would take a little girl’s skull home and play with it.”

[iamkeri1]

When her Dad died when she was 15, my daughter rarely showed her grief. I was with her whenever she was not in school, and she was very stoic about it. "People do not need to know how I feel, There is nothing they can do about it. I cry when I am alone in my room at night. People will use it against me. You can't trust people. If they know I am weak they will use it against me." were things she said to me.

Casey Anthony is not a very likeable person. We don't like the way she focuses on herself rather than her daughter. This means 1) she is disfunctional OR 2) she is grieving away from the cameras. All evidence against her is circumstantial. I don't have an opinion as to whether or not she is guilty. I do not believe that the state has made their case. I believe that if she is convicted, it will be more because she is disliked than because of proof of guilt.

Smooches,
Keri

[NJFemmie]

Murderers have been convicted on circumstantial evidence before. Scott Peterson was one of them.

What makes Casey so "unlikeable" (IMO) is her excessive lying. The story keeps changing. Come to find out Zanny isn't even a real person. Now, instead of the supposed kidnapping, Caylee drowned. George did it, because George allegedly molested her. But George was the only person Casey wanted to see face to face while in prison (it's on tape).

She parties for the month after her daughter goes missing. She gets that tattoo.

Does this make a likeable person? Not so much. But, it is at her own doing. She CAN step up and tell the truth.

[Medusa]

NJ - You touched on something that has been orbiting for me in this case.

I don't have kids and don't even really like them so I often don't have warm fuzzies around things involving children than other people might. I do, however, get really pissed off/sad when I think about a small child being dead and her body laying out in the woods decaying and alone. If I were on that jury, I would ask myself if, as a Mother, I could go on about my life knowing that my child's body was decaying somewhere and that animals were possibly destroying her remains.
I personally couldn't do that and would feel incredible judgment about a Mother who could.

I think there is a level of mental illness going on with Casey and, in a way, I feel like she operates like a small child would on a lot of levels. The lying, attention-seeking, etc. all speak to someone who just wants to be loved, just wants to avoid responsibility. I wouldn't say I feel sorry for her at all but I do feel compassion for her.

[NJFemmie]

I don't have children either - as I get older, I find myself tolerating them less myself (but at the same time, I do like children, just not always "other" people's children) ... BUT, as you, if I were a mother, and my child was missing - I would have FITS about it. There is no way I could even step out in public let alone party, get a tat, yadda yadda. She was emotionless from the start - even when she was arrested for murder. If I KNEW I didn't do this, and I was arrested for murder, I would be screaming hell on earth so that even satan himself would cover his ears.

Obviously yes, she does has mental issues. I mentioned before that she's more than likely suffering from a narcissistic personality disorder - she has exhibited (if not) all of the signs. What do you do with people like this? I mean, really?

Live feed: (for anyone interested)

[Gráinne]

Just last night, I lost my son (age 11) in the huge crowd leaving the riverfront for not more than three minutes, but it seemed like a thousand years. The whole world stopped until he was safely within reach. There was no way I was taking one step until I saw him. That's what I don't get about Casey, and what is so chilling.

I take it that there's no insanity defense, which is notoriously hard to show. She seems as disturbed as Andrea Yates, but not just crazy but cunning. She won't go off to a hospital somewhere.

I personally think she's going to get manslaughter, with a long, long sentence a la Diane Downs, with appeals and dragged out legal things up the wahoo.

[Peach]

that whole family is f*cked up. they all lie, and wouldnt know the truth if it bit them on the ass. I know they tested her brother to see if he was the father of the child, did they test the dad. it has never come out, who the father is. If they knew the guy, you would think the defense would have tried to pin it on him, they tried everyone else.
I do not think she will be convicted of 1st degree, mainly due the fact, they cannot prove how Caylee died, only that she did, and most likely at the hand of her mother. But they simply cannnot prove it wasnt an accident (which IMO it was not) and they cant prove the cause of death. I think she will be convicted of 2nd, or manslaughter of those are on the table.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I mentioned before that she's more than likely suffering from a narcissistic personality disorder - she has exhibited (if not) all of the signs. What do you do with people like this? I mean, really?

It's a good question.

On a personal level, because of my history, I keep as much distance as possible from people who exhibit those behaviors (including family members).

On a societal level, I think we hold them responsible for their actions. Narcissism isn't an excuse for criminal or irresponsible or negligent or *fill in the blank* behavior.

It also isn't a crime in and of itself. Casey may be highly unlikable, but being unlikable isn't criminal. We can't judge her based on disliking her, but we can judge her actions.

[Peach]

My son wandered off one day, I didnt notice him gone for about 10 minutes, and life stopped the second I realized he wasnt in the yard anymore. We found him, a lady had him by the hand and was knocking on doors asking if this was their kid! I almost threw up from fear. That was ovver 30 years ago, and it still makes me ill to think what may have been. No way would I have been out at a party, getting a tattoo, and lying about it. I would have had the National guard out looking for him!

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by guihong

Just last night, I lost my son (age 11) in the huge crowd leaving the riverfront for not more than three minutes, but it seemed like a thousand years. The whole world stopped until he was safely within reach. There was no way I was taking one step until I saw him. That's what I don't get about Casey, and what is so chilling.

Originally Posted by Peach

My son wandered off one day, I didnt notice him gone for about 10 minutes, and life stopped the second I realized he wasnt in the yard anymore. We found him, a lady had him by the hand and was knocking on doors asking if this was their kid! I almost threw up from fear. That was ovver 30 years ago, and it still makes me ill to think what may have been. No way would I have been out at a party, getting a tattoo, and lying about it. I would have had the National guard out looking for him!

Yes, this exactly. I don't know of a single mother who could do what she did for a month.

I understand being private, quiet, stoic...all of that. I am not a "public griever"....I don't go to funerals. If I'm hurting, I prefer to do that in private or with a single close friend.

For me, that's fundamentally different than being in a "hot body" contest, drinking, partying and celebrating the "beautiful life" with a tattoo.

My life would not be beautiful if my son were missing or dead. I'd be a wreck.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Peach

that whole family is f*cked up. they all lie, and wouldnt know the truth if it bit them on the ass. I know they tested her brother to see if he was the father of the child, did they test the dad. it has never come out, who the father is. If they knew the guy, you would think the defense would have tried to pin it on him, they tried everyone else.
I do not think she will be convicted of 1st degree, mainly due the fact, they cannot prove how Caylee died, only that she did, and most likely at the hand of her mother. But they simply cannnot prove it wasnt an accident (which IMO it was not) and they cant prove the cause of death. I think she will be convicted of 2nd, or manslaughter of those are on the table.

Caylee's father was (kinda) revealed. He was killed in a motorcycle accident years ago. Last I heard, there was talk about exhuming the body for DNA testing, but I don't know what happened after that.