Child Brides - Tradition or State Sanctioned Rape?

[Medusa]

I found this article on CNN this morning about a 12-year old girl who died from internal bleeding after the consummation of her marriage to a person at least twice her age.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...ex.html?hpt=T2


I am naturally pretty sickened by this.

I am wondering if other folks feel that this is a form of state-sanctioned rape or if our experiences as Americans cause us to look at the tradition of "forced marriage" or "child brides" this way instead of as the traditions belonging to another country.
I am thinking about some of the "child bride" issues we have going on in our own country with the LDS folks and some other religious sects and thinking that at least in America, I would view this as an issue of rape.

This question might also tie in with the practice of female genital mutilation and how we view it here as opposed to how its viewed in the countries it is practiced in.

Curious about people's thoughts on this.

[EnderD_503]

I think that the way the tradition of child brides over there is viewed is probably divided. While I was living in Europe I remember watching a news programme that was talking about a young girl in India, if I recall correctly, who tried to bring attention to the child bride tradition. Apparently she took part in an Indian tv show where one of the main themes was bringing awareness to the issue, and she apparently spoke out against it on more than one occasion. Apparently since the controversy things went downhill for her, but it does demonstrate that there are some young Indian girls trying to oppose the tradition.

While I obviously have no idea, never having lived in an affected nation, I would imagine, judging from that controversy, that some view it as a valuable cultural tradition, while others view it as an oppressive tradition that sanctions rape, just like that young Indian girl does. I'll see if I can find an article or video clip that talks about her.

Under our definition of rape, it certainly is rape, but when we consider that comparable traditions used to exist in the west (and again realising how words and their meanings change through time and according to tradition) as well it's difficult to slap a label on a tradition that wasn't formed within our time period, or coming from the same perspective that we are today. As wishywashy and subjective as all this sounds, I really do think it depends on which perspective you're coming from. Which doesn't mean that I personally don't see it as sanctioned rape, but I do think that's something to consider. My personal opinion is that it is rape, that it's an infringement upon the sovereignty of the individual and, as such, I am entirely opposed to it and do hope that those fighting to change the laws that allow it win out.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I think that the way the tradition of child brides over there is viewed is probably divided. While I was living in Europe I remember watching a news programme that was talking about a young girl in India, if I recall correctly, who tried to bring attention to the child bride tradition. Apparently she took part in an Indian tv show where one of the main themes was bringing awareness to the issue, and she apparently spoke out against it on more than one occasion. Apparently since the controversy things went downhill for her, but it does demonstrate that there are some young Indian girls trying to oppose the tradition.

While I obviously have no idea, never having lived in an affected nation, I would imagine, judging from that controversy, that some view it as a valuable cultural tradition, while others view it as an oppressive tradition that sanctions rape, just like that young Indian girl does. I'll see if I can find an article or video clip that talks about her.

Under our definition of rape, it certainly is rape, but when we consider that comparable traditions used to exist in the west (and again realising how words and their meanings change through time and according to tradition) as well it's difficult to slap a label on a tradition that wasn't formed within our time period, or coming from the same perspective that we are today. As wishywashy and subjective as all this sounds, I really do think it depends on which perspective you're coming from. Which doesn't mean that I personally don't see it as sanctioned rape, but I do think that's something to consider. My personal opinion is that it is rape, that it's an infringement upon the sovereignty of the individual and, as such, I am entirely opposed to it and do hope that those fighting to change the laws that allow it win out.

I'm glad that you brought up your time living in Europe, Ender! I'd be curious to know what Europeans thought of the LDS issue that was happening over here in America (last summer? or before?). I think I sometimes forget that its not as polar as America v the rest of the world. Damn that American-centrism!

I believe personally that it is rape as well but I also have value for traditions and cultures in other countries. I keep thinking about how very Patriarchal a lot of societies across the world are and how that might give weight to women being seen as "less powerful", as "property", and especially in this discussion, how "child brides" might be considered a "right" for some men.
I know it isnt as simple as pointing at the Patriarchy for everything, especially with religious interweaving.

I'll also have to admit my ignorance on just how widespread or ingrained the child bride industry is across the world. Need to do some reading on this one.

Thanks for the discussion! This stuff feeds my soul

[apretty]

this film by female director Deepah Mehta is stunningly beautiful and completely heart-breaking... and well worth the watch, on the subject of 'child brides' (and child widows!) in 1938 India.




(controversy on filming 'water' which was eventually filmed in Sri Lanka: http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/28/water.php)

more on child-brides/widows: http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/women/widows/

[Lynn]

It's one thing to value and preserve the customs and traditions of a culture. I think it's really important to respect the past and take care not to impose our own ethnocentric values on another culture. At the same time, some things are just abjectly wrong, and can be applied to humanity. In my opinion, I guess I shoud add. I feel that it is kind of a smokescreen to say that this (the degradation and murder of women and children) is "our custom," "our tradition," or even, "our religion." I have a difficult time seeing these abuses as anything other than a deliberate, calculated effort to suppress the strength and power of women. Cloaking it in the guise of religion or tradition confuses the matter and makes it difficult to remedy without increasing the violence. Some things should be preserved and sustained, but not practices which degrade, maim, disempower, or kill women and children.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Personally, I think of child brides as rape victims - it really bothers me, but that is because of my culture, not theirs. It is like the Japanese women who want to be geisha's, and their families hand them over to a "house" for being raised.

I have a very good friend of mine who traveled to Japan after he graduated from Yale. He felt that he needed to be involved with a missionary. In the end he returned back to the states. His involvement was with trying to stop child brides and their tradition of geisha's and training. It failed. It is that culture, and that tradition. Nobody or a group or whatever can intervene and stop something that is cultural or traditional to that area. It is what it is. No matter if we like it or not. Anyway the US is hung up on sex as it is.

[Lynn]

I hear you, Andrew.

I respect your friend's desire to change the system. His failure to do so, however, doesn't mean that he wasn't doing the right thing. Marrying off children, who suffer physically and mentally, is wrong. I think objecting to children having sex with grown men is not a cultural "hang up," but a matter of right vs. wrong.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Lynn,

Yes, I agree. He was and still is quite involved with that mission. He and his wife adopted 2 children from Japan since then. It has been eye-opening as to what he has shared with me. He is a very good man.

[SuperFemme]

I think the biggest misconception about Geisha is that they have sex. They do not. In a country as steeped in tradition as Japan, the Geisha are the Matriarchs.

[Corkey]

It's a explicitly hypocritical of the US based culture to try to tell another culture what they can and can not practice. Anyone remember the children of Native America and how their culture was changed to match what white americia wanted them to be. Massive failure.

Personally for me it would be rape, abuse, and not acceptable. But I don't live there, I wasn't raised in their culture to be able to speak to the issue (for) them. My sunglasses aren't rose tinted, our own history is full of this patriarchy.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Corkey

It's a explicitly hypocritical of the US based culture to try to tell another culture what they can and can not practice. Anyone remember the children of Native America and how their culture was changed to match what white americia wanted them to be. Massive failure.

Personally for me it would be rape, abuse, and not acceptable. But I don't live there, I wasn't raised in their culture to be able to speak to the issue (for) them. My sunglasses aren't rose tinted, our own history is full of this patriarchy.

On the one hand I think you are right that we have to be careful about one culture telling another culture what they can and cannot do. On the other hand their are many women and girls fighting this tradition. Is it their fight only and we should just butt out and watch from the sidelines?

For me, a 10 or 12 year having sex with an adult male isn't just rape it is legal pedophilia. I can't imagine why an adult man would want to have sex with a 10 year old child.

I often think it is easy to call something like this tradition in order to get other countries to back off. Yet it seems that many of these "traditions" seem to hurt women and girls both physcially and psychologically.

I can't even think of one tradition that negatively impacts the physical, sexual, mental, and emotional health of boys and men on a wide reaching cultural level. Perhaps there are/were some but nothing is coming to mind right now.

Why are child brides almost always female married to adult males? Why are girls in FLDS communities married at super young ages but not the boys. What age are the boys generally married at come to think of it. I don't recall ever reading anything about this? Would we view this differently if a 15 year old girl were married to a 15 year old boy rather than a man in his 40s, 50s, or 60s? What does a girl of 15 think about being married to a man in his 50s. Has anyone even asked her?

Why is genital multilation performed on young girls but not young boys in the countries that habitually practice FGM? A lot of this is not so much rooted in cultural and religious traditions but in attitudes toward women, women's bodies, sex, ownership, ecomomics, defintions of chastity, and reproduction.


Rufus

[BornBronson]

Well,it was sad to read about her death.Poor child,she had to marry a monster.Shame on her parents for allowing it too.

Some girls in this country just have sex out of wedlock,get pregnant,and raise a fatherless child.

I don't know which is worse for young girls in this world.

But who said this was ever a nice world,especially if you're born a girl.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

On the one hand I think you are right that we have to be careful about one culture telling another culture what they can and cannot do. On the other hand their are many women and girls fighting this tradition. Is it their fight only and we should just butt out and watch from the sidelines?

For me, a 10 or 12 year having sex with an adult male isn't just rape it is legal pedophilia. I can't imagine why an adult man would want to have sex with a 10 year old child.

I often think it is easy to call something like this tradition in order to get other countries to back off. Yet it seems that many of these "traditions" seem to hurt women and girls both physcially and psychologically.

I can't even think of one tradition that impacts the physical, sexual, mental, and emotional health of boys and men on a wide reaching cultural level. Perhaps there are/were some but nothing is coming to mind right now.

Rufus

I will support the women and children's right to choose, not sit idly by and watch it happen. In the end it still a matter of their culture, how I see it doesn't concern the men who keep this alive. If it did it would have stopped eons ago. I don't know where we keep coming up with our way is always better than another cultures. We as an americian society can't even stop this on our own shores. I have a healthy respect for women and children who can change their societies from their view point. It still isn't up to me to interject my opinion on how they comport themselves. These are my thoughts not arguing with you.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I am wondering if other folks feel that this is a form of state-sanctioned rape or if our experiences as Americans cause us to look at the tradition of "forced marriage" or "child brides" this way instead of as the traditions belonging to another country.

The US, in spite of having laws that make having sex with a minor a criminal offence, has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the entire industrialized world with a not insignificant number of pregnancies involving girls as young as ten or eleven.

Perhaps, then, while we're expressing our outrage - again - at what happens in the Middle East, we could ask ourselves why it is that it's the 'state sanctioned' aspect of certain things that we find so abominable and worthy of discussion and not 'the things' themselves.

Words

[AtLast]

When I look at this, I am mindful of what may be culture-bound. However, the numbers of women joining forces worldwide to fight against these kinds of things is not lost on me. If they want change and are the one's subjected to this, I think their cause is something to support.

As much as I get pissed at how the US can be so cavilier about things that apply to other cultures, I am not casting a blind eye to social movements of those that are directly affected by these kinds of situations. That, to me, is simply keeping my head in the sand.

Further, when the hell is the US going to deal with illegal underage marriage (and rape) within religiously sanctioned groups? LDS offshoots are alive and well in the US! There are others.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Words

The US, in spite of having laws that make having sex with a minor a criminal offence, has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the entire industrialized world with a not insignificant number of pregnancies involving girls as young as ten or eleven.

Perhaps, then, while we're expressing our outrage - again - at what happens in the Middle East, we could ask ourselves why it is that it's the 'state sanctioned' aspect of certain things that we find so abominable and worthy of discussion and not 'the things' themselves.

Words

Words, good questions. I think the US teen pregnancy rate has a lot to do with sex ed (or lack of it) in schools; with the fact that abortion is not covered by most health insurance companies, that millions in America have little access to either money for an abortion or an abortion clinic, and that teens sometimes choose to get pregnant for a variety of reasons. Abortion in the US is very stigmatized. It is framed primarily as a moral issue rather than a women's health issue.

The recent murder of an abortion doctor doesn't help the stigma.

Some states require teens to get parental consent for an abortion or require parental notification. Parents can then block access to the abortion. The religious right holds a lot of sway here and often controls the debate on abortion and contraception.

Its interesting though that the UK has the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe [although still much lower than the US). What are some of the theories for this? Is abortion/contraception covered by the NHS?

Rufus

[sweetcali]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I found this article on CNN this morning about a 12-year old girl who died from internal bleeding after the consummation of her marriage to a person at least twice her age.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...ex.html?hpt=T2


I am naturally pretty sickened by this.

I am wondering if other folks feel that this is a form of state-sanctioned rape or if our experiences as Americans cause us to look at the tradition of "forced marriage" or "child brides" this way instead of as the traditions belonging to another country.
I am thinking about some of the "child bride" issues we have going on in our own country with the LDS folks and some other religious sects and thinking that at least in America, I would view this as an issue of rape.

This question might also tie in with the practice of female genital mutilation and how we view it here as opposed to how its viewed in the countries it is practiced in.

Curious about people's thoughts on this.

I read that article too Medusa, Every aspect of it makes me sick. I find these practices not only sickening but frightening. It doesn't just happen in what we call the underdeveloped parts of the world it happens everywhere. I have lived, worked and vacationed all over the world. I can remember many many practices directed towards young girls when I was a young girl and being absolutely horrified.


I think before one becomes totally judgemental though one also has to understand the cultural aspects of the area in which this “____” fill in the blank is practiced. I don't agree with the practices nor do I condone them. In fact they make me sick, angry and well just plumb fired up. I do not believe any human being should be treated in this manner especially a young girl or young boy.

I get and understand cultural belief systems. I have always been fascinated by them and have always tried to learn about them and if possible to visit the area just to get a better understanding. Well when I was able to travel that is what I did. Now I just read and ask a lot of questions.

Now as I have stated I do and understand the cultural beliefs that enable these primitive practices I don't belief in them. I find them to be barbaric, abusive and inhumane. When I was able to I was very involved in several groups that assisted these young girls. We helped them to escape, we educated, anyway we tried as many different ways as we could possibly come up with the help to reeducate the communities and the biggest hurdle of all was the belief system of that particular culture.
The are in which we live in very culturally diverse. One of my heathens best friends is from India. Her father dominates everything this child does. This young girl whom just turned 13 is the oldest of the children. She is responsible for all of the younger ones and the house work. She also is rarely allowed out away from the home to visit a friend by herself. Last week she was allowed to attend my heathens birthday party. I could tell that there had been quite a discussion that had taken place before she was allowed to come. Her father came into the establishment, scoped everyone and everything out, and talked with Mike and I about her return home. Now, what was interesting is that her father was not satisfied until her father had spoken with Mike. What I found sad about this day was that this little girl and her family will be moving back to India this summer. Why? Because the oldest daughter is now 13 and her father wants her to find a husband in India. I am also sure that if it hasn't been done already that she will suffer a clitorectomy. She is not allowed to come up the street to our house because we are too American. I have tried to have discussions; however Daddy isn't going to allow any outside education of cultural ways.

I find it very sad that even in our own nation we are allowing these practices. The hardest hurdle of all of these practices is breaking the belief system that tells them this is “The Right Way”. What I have found in working with others in this capacity is not just educating, but helping to move beyond the fear. Fear that nasty nasty nasty drug.

Sweetcali

(I hope this made some kind of sense as my chemo brain cells have not all recovered. Chocolate helps though.)

[Martina]

The Quran says that women have a right to choose their own husbands.

The Yemeni cases have been appalling. There have been cases of girls raised in Britain who know little about Yemeni culture -- visiting their fathers or their grandparents in Yemen -- and being kept against their wishes and married to old men.

i have a Master's degree in Anthropology. The cultural relativism arguments have been drilled into me. I also know that we are at war in so many ways with traditional cultures, many of which are Muslim, and much of the politics behind that "war" are not mine. But i don't care. DON'T CARE. These are human rights violations. It is 2010 for all the world everywhere. Ruining people's bodies, minds, and spirits -- i don't care if your culture falls apart because of it, but end it.

If the Aztecs were still doing human sacrifice daily, i think the world would have something to say about it.

Women in the Middle East are working to stop these atrocities. We should support them.

i love Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, who co-wrote Half the Sky. He helps women around the world tell their stories. He came to these stories with no ax to grind, no personal investment. He was just a reporter, and he couldn't turn away when he saw what was happening. i love people like that.

[Gemme]

Years and years ago, it wasn't uncommon for girls to marry early and move out of their family's home here. Of course, that was because age 14 was not the same as it is now. Fourteen then is like 25 or 26 (guessimate) now, due to living longer and all of the lovely improvements and progress we've made along the way. For the most part, we've adapted our level of what is and is not an acceptable age for a girl to enter into marriage according to our growth and progress as a nation and as individuals, including the fact that we simply live longer, so there's more time to reproduce and provide for our families now.

A lot of countries haven't had the opportunities that the U.S. has had to improve the lifespans of the inhabitants. Part of me wants to fall in line with the 'but it's their CULTURE' crowd and part of me wants to acknowledge that many of those countries would be run very differently if they had access to all that we do here. Part of me also wants to turn vigilante and beat the shit out of anyone and everyone who's ever hurt a child, be it male or female. That's my shit to own and figure out how to cease and desist, though.

I started out with a clear vision of what I wanted to say, but I'm at work and a bit distracted and I suppose I haven't anything really to add to the discussion, I guess. *shrug*

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Words

The US, in spite of having laws that make having sex with a minor a criminal offence, has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the entire industrialized world with a not insignificant number of pregnancies involving girls as young as ten or eleven.

Perhaps, then, while we're expressing our outrage - again - at what happens in the Middle East, we could ask ourselves why it is that it's the 'state sanctioned' aspect of certain things that we find so abominable and worthy of discussion and not 'the things' themselves.

Words

You make a good point. There is an article in this week's Time Magazine about the Catholic Church, saying the fact that there are so few women in the hierarchy has meant that they have had a very different (and lesser) interest in child welfare. That's a western institution.

i think that the U.S. is not a bastion of human rights. So not. Look at our prisons. We allow amazing amounts of child poverty. Child prostitution is rampant. Yes, we need to look at ourselves too.

That should not stop us from calling murder, rape and oppression what they are wherever they are.

This is a link to Nicholas Kristof's page on the NYTimes.

LINK

Here is one to a brief piece on Yemen - a few days before the other story broke, i think. LINK