Denying Children cause Parents are Lesbians

[Lusciousblondefemme]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/10/col...ex.html?hpt=T2

I wonder when they are going to start putting into affect discrimination laws that protect children from being discriminated against because their parents are gay.

As a lesbian mother, I am appalled that people think it is ok to take out their beliefs and ideals on innocent children.

What does it say to our children? These children are being raised in a loving environment, they are definately more well rounded than children being raised in mommy and daddy environments because they see what their parents go through.
So when will it stop? Is there ever going to be someone who actually takes into consideration that it is not the Childrens fault that their parents are gay?

You would think that in this day and age that tolerance would be taught to everyone. I do not give a shit that the church does not believe in homosexuality, but guess what it is real, it is happening on a daily basis so one day they are going to have to come to their senses and realize that as much as they preach agaisnt homosexuality it will not go away.

I feel so bad for these children and their parents. How dare someone discriminate against their children for their lifestyle.

What does everyone think about this topic ?

[Soft*Silver]

I wonder if other catholic schools are going to take this stand now as well. I sit here, shaking my head and wonder how a church, with so much love and compassion to offer to this world, would take this stance.

If the church was true to their mission, they would have kept the children in their school so they would have a religious foundation. Because they chose to austrasize the children, it tells me their motives were not for the sake of the children, but for the sake of their doctrine.

So, in other words, they sacrificed these specific children to protect their ancient beliefs.

shame on them...

[Lusciousblondefemme]

Originally Posted by softness

I wonder if other catholic schools are going to take this stand now as well. I sit here, shaking my head and wonder how a church, with so much love and compassion to offer to this world, would take this stance.

If the church was true to their mission, they would have kept the children in their school so they would have a religious foundation. Because they chose to austrasize the children, it tells me their motives were not for the sake of the children, but for the sake of their doctrine.

So, in other words, they sacrificed these specific children to protect their ancient beliefs.

shame on them...

I absolutely agree with you...
My thoughts are that they preach that they want to get children involved in religion, so why would you go and kick two children out, that are young and can still be molded to believe in the church, out of their school?

My thing is are these the beliefs of all at the church or is it just the archdiocese that has these beliefs?

I wonder if they asked other parents who have children in that school if they agree with the decision to kick out the children?

They might be surprised that other parents would take it to be horrible as well to discriminate against the children for what their parents do behind closed doors.

[Diva]

This is a subject which, even now, makes my skin crawl.

I lived it.

I divorced in 1989 and lost custody of my girls because I am a lesbian. I was ordered to pay child support to a millionaire (at the time of the divorce, I was a singing waiter in a mediocre Italian restaurant). Because of my own guilt in the situation, I didn't fight back. I actually TRUSTED my ex-husband to be 'fair'. It was a bitter pill I have had to swallow, lo these many years later.

My girls wanted to live with me and so 6 years later, we finally had the opportunity to go to trial ~ it was a week-long, jury trial in deep west Texas ~ was drug through the mud (both my partner and I), witnessed my oldest child testifying against her father and STILL lost.

A year later, that child was killed in a car accident; and several months after that, my youngest child decided she didn't want to see me again because I was a lesbian. She was absent from my life for 7 years. I continued to write to her, send her presents for every major holiday (as I always had)and never gave up on the dream that she would come back to me.

But her father's true colors came through and she got tired of his attitude toward me, which then turned to her. She was a constant reminder of me.

Things are wonderful now between the two of us (my daughter and me). We speak several times a week and she is about to move HOME, here to Austin, and will live with me for a while. She is now almost 23. We lost a lot of time....but we are doing our best to make up for that now, and I am so grateful.

Just writing this short amount has my stomach in knots!!! I have often thought of writing the story.....it has been so awful that I'm not sure anyone would believe it!

If I can teach one lesson from it, however, I would say if You find Yourself in a marriage and You realize You are a lesbian, GET A LAWYER. BE SMARTER THAN I WAS. HAVE MORE COURAGE THAN I DID. Get Your ducks in a row and then get out.

[Soft*Silver]

Diva..my stumach twisted in knots as I read your story. The young ones dont really know what it was like being a lesbian in the decades before computers. We were isolated from one another and had no support system. The mainstream culture made us invisible except to crucify us. We lost our children based on the hatred toward anything that wasnt white, heterosexual and part of the patriarchy.

I am so glad that your daughter is coming home. How incredibly wonderful for both of you!

And what a sorrow to have lost a child, so young, so unexpected. And shame on the man and the courts who kept you from her...

I believe in heroes, Diva. Quiet ones. Ones no one can see their capes or mask. They are the ones who fought to make changes, albeit involuntarily. Often by coercian and force. But they are nontheless, heroes. And you, my dear, made my list of heroes today...

from one lesbian mother to another...Softness

[Soft*Silver]

[QUOTE=Lusciousblondefemme;64241][COLOR="Purple"]I absolutely agree with you...
My thoughts are that they preach that they want to get children involved in religion, so why would you go and kick two children out, that are young and can still be molded to believe in the church, out of their school?

I would like to clarify my words so that people wont get the wrong idea of what I meant. I so didnt mean it would give the church time to mold the children to their beliefs, at least not the homophobic beliefs that the church holds sacred. What I did mean, is that the children would have had a chance to belong to and gain from a spiritual base. I truly believe it is only a matter of time before the US changes its entire perception of and behaviors toward LGBT culture. And the church will change as well. What the church lost out in, was that the parents obviously wanted their kids IN a Catholic school...to be brought up Catholic. The church lost these young ones...and all so they could preserve some ancient taboo against love of another kind...

[Lusciousblondefemme]

Softness,

I re read what i wrote and I didnt mean it to come out that way .. I meant it as they have an opportunity to help the children become spiritual and believe in God.. and they are throwing that away ..

I do not believe that children should be molded to breed hatred ... by any means..

My children are not religious at all.. The one time that they went to church with my sister the topic of the conversation was homosexuality and how it was a sin and yadda yadda yadda.. My daughter came home and said to me.. " I can not believe in something that does not accept you for who you are.. Why do they think that you are a bad person because you love who you love?"

I honestly couldn't answer that question to her because i was raised Roman Catholic all my life, i know how churches are I know how sometimes they spread hatred for people who do not conform to their ideals. It makes me sick to think that people can sit in judgement and feel that they are ok and will go on to better places in life.

Diva,

I am sorry that you had to go through that .. I came out when i was 16 it was in the 1990's, yes i ended up marrying my ex husband but i did it to conform and when i realized life was not that easy and that my feelings would not just vanish I had to do something. I can honestly say I do commend my ex husband for not using my sexuality against me. He could have done that but he didn't and I believe that our children are much better children for that. They have grown up in an environment that shows them that all people are different and that just because you may have a different race, ethnicity or sexuality it doesnt make you any less of a person.

I am glad that your daughter will be coming home to you ... May your days with her be filled with alot of love and laughter ...

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by softness

I wonder if other catholic schools are going to take this stand now as well. I sit here, shaking my head and wonder how a church, with so much love and compassion to offer to this world, would take this stance.

If the church was true to their mission, they would have kept the children in their school so they would have a religious foundation. Because they chose to austrasize the children, it tells me their motives were not for the sake of the children, but for the sake of their doctrine.

So, in other words, they sacrificed these specific children to protect their ancient beliefs.

shame on them...

While I agree that the archdiocese is wrong in their decision, I think that ultimately they are doing this child a long-term favor. NOT going to a Catholic school they will not be exposed to a belief system that is anti-queer and anti-woman. They may learn to think rationally and to have the courage of their convictions to follow it all the way up and all the way down, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.

I was raised in the church (AME) and while I am glad that I learned the Bible as a piece of literature, almost nothing I learned in church that was specifically religious in nature has been of any real use to me as an adult except as a negative example of how NOT to treat other people and how NOT to think.

What's more the archdiocese is being entirely consistent with their beliefs. I understand that some queer people would like Christianity, in its current, American formulation, to be a different religion than what it is but it isn't. The Catholic church just is what it is. Part of what it is is homophobic.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

While I agree that the archdiocese is wrong in their decision, I think that ultimately they are doing this child a long-term favor. NOT going to a Catholic school they will not be exposed to a belief system that is anti-queer and anti-woman. They may learn to think rationally and to have the courage of their convictions to follow it all the way up and all the way down, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.

I was raised in the church (AME) and while I am glad that I learned the Bible as a piece of literature, almost nothing I learned in church that was specifically religious in nature has been of any real use to me as an adult except as a negative example of how NOT to treat other people and how NOT to think.

What's more the archdiocese is being entirely consistent with their beliefs. I understand that some queer people would like Christianity, in its current, American formulation, to be a different religion than what it is but it isn't. The Catholic church just is what it is. Part of what it is is homophobic.

Cheers
Aj

I am very troubled by this decision and what is behind it. I have to say, however, that I find many myths concerning just how much actual religion is taught within specific faith-run schools. Also, as a Catholic growing up, I did hjave parents that pointed out where the church was wrong. My mother was very clear about the facty that there were world religions and none of them could claim being the true, faith. She leaned over to me weekly during mass and wispered that part isn't true about many things being said. And both of my parents were very clear that sin was bullshit, especially concerning children.

Also, parents do make decisions about the quality of schooling for their kids and frankly, many religious schools do offer better education. I would rather this not be true, but it is. And the main reason I want the tax exemptions that organized religions get to be revoked. That money should be put into the US public education systems.

Yes, as an adult, I needed to transform my spiritual beliefs as Catholocism just wasn't going to cut it. But, I am glad I was raised within a religious home because it did give me a path to to completion as a human within a spiritual context... a foundation to figure out how I could integrate spirit in my life. And no thgere is no old white guy with a beard up there to me. I simply need this in my life, it is a positive energy force for me.

I absolutely go nuts with the influence of church & state in the US and wing-nut fundamentalists (actually that would be world wide), and think all religious organization should not be exempt from taxation.

Yup, no church involved with state matters. But, I embrace the concept of freedom of religion/spirituality (including athiesim) and have to say that I do get tired of all religious and even spiritual belief systems being put into one negative box.

I feel that this lesbian parent should fight this if she really wants her child in this school. This is a step toward combating the homophobia in Catholocism. Just as many Reformist Jews combat sexism (and homophobia) within Judism.

[Soft*Silver]

DG.....I am not wanting to defend Catholisiscm (sp?) in this thread. I do want to point out that the true debate is the rights of this lesbian couple to send their child to a school of their choice. Choice being the operative defining word.

As an empath, I find it very suffocating spiritually when people are not given choices.

And what message does the church's stance and decision send to those (and all, for that matter) children? That their parents have failed them...all by their lesbianism,

my mother was literally physically thrown out of church and told not to come back when she confessed she and my father were using birth control. Condoms. I was the last child and my birth almost killed my mother. She was TERRIFIED of getting pregnant again. She came to confession to be absolved of her sin, and would not budge when the priest insisted she had to stop using condoms. He got out of his confessional and went to her booth, grabbed her by the arm and put her out the main doors, and said she was no longer welcomed there but her children could come so that the church could at least try to redeem them.

I grew up with that shit in my head. I turned the church against my mother. If not for me, she would have been a good Catholic.

and I want to add one more personal thing here..

I attend mass every once in awhile now. My roots are definitly in pagan ways (my people in the old country were druids) As an adult I dont hold the church responsible for what that one priest did to my mother during that point in history. The priest we have now in that same church is the very reason I came back to going to mass at times. He welcomes my lesbian butt in those pews anytime I want to attend. He didnt flinch when my (now X) butch husband was pall bearer for both my mother and father...in a man's suit and tie. He shook my butch's hand and offered him sympathy for losing his mother in law. So, we also need to say, that not all priests and not all catholics follow doctrine to a T....

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

While I agree that the archdiocese is wrong in their decision, I think that ultimately they are doing this child a long-term favor. NOT going to a Catholic school they will not be exposed to a belief system that is anti-queer and anti-woman. They may learn to think rationally and to have the courage of their convictions to follow it all the way up and all the way down, no matter how uncomfortable that might be.

I was raised in the church (AME) and while I am glad that I learned the Bible as a piece of literature, almost nothing I learned in church that was specifically religious in nature has been of any real use to me as an adult except as a negative example of how NOT to treat other people and how NOT to think.

What's more the archdiocese is being entirely consistent with their beliefs. I understand that some queer people would like Christianity, in its current, American formulation, to be a different religion than what it is but it isn't. The Catholic church just is what it is. Part of what it is is homophobic.

Cheers
Aj

[Allison W]

I can't imagine why anyone would want to put their children in a Catholic school anyway.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Allison W

I can't imagine why anyone would want to put their children in a Catholic school anyway.

I think for many parents out there, "religious" schools are an alternative to over- crowded, under staffed ( either by number or quality of educators) and the perceived dangers and bad influences of public schools.

Unfortunately, the trade off may not be such a prize.

[Apocalipstic]

Yes, it is sad when anyone is denied anything because of sexual orientation!

However, I am with AJ. But for an additional reason as well.

I went to religious schools and was at church every time the door was open. It did not however, keep me safe.

I think religious schools give a false sense of security, like nothing bad can happen there. Bad things can and do happen there and the sheltering and denial that goes on can lead to kids not knowing stuff they would know if they went to public school...like how not to put themselves in bad situations where they can be sexually assaulted. If something like that does happen, the school and church will tell the child to keep quiet and deny anything happened.

The kids are safer out in the world. Way safer.

And, think back to your teen years. Who were the wildest kids you knew with the best drugs? The kids at catholic school.

[dreadgeek]

Softness:

Okay, here's where I have the courage of my convictions. While I think what the church-run school did was odious, bigoted and needlessly small-minded, I ALSO believe that they had the right to do so. In fact, they have a right to do so that supersedes the right of this lesbian couple to send a child to the school of their choice? How so? Because I want to be protected from the Catholic church making public policy (law) in America. The method that protects me from that is the First Amendment. The *price* for "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." (which protects me from having the 80+% of Americans who DO believe in some god or another forcing it down my throat by the use of the democratic process) is that churches can, for the most part, discriminate however they choose, against whomever they choose, for whatever reasons they choose to do so. I may think that discrimination is wrong. I may think that discrimination is odious. I may think that the church doing the discrimination deserves to be roundly excoriating from every hilltop and soapbox in the country. However, that does not mean that I can assert a 'right' to some service that the church provides and expect to have the government enforce that right.

Do the parents of this child have the right to choose a school for their child? Yes. Do the parents of this child have the right to expect that ANY school they choose must accept their child? No. Is that discrimination? Yes. Am I defending discrimination as right? No. My argument is not "the Catholic diocese is correct". My argument is "the Catholic diocese is within their rights to discriminate" because by granting them that right, I keep them on the far side of my government where the amount of harm they can do is mitigated (at least a little bit).

If we state that the parents of this child have a right to send their child to a Catholic school and that the Catholic school is in violation of some non-discrimination clause or another, then we are telling the government to tell the Catholic church how to conduct their affairs. If the government can do that then the Catholic church is within its rights to turn around and petition the government to have its vision of morality foisted upon the rest of us who may not share their belief in a divine being. That foisting, if it were to come to pass, would almost certainly involve laws preventing this lesbian couple from having their child. To prevent that, I may have to put up with things I consider odious or offensive--and those are precisely my judgements about the dioceses' decision regarding this child attending the school.

Our commitment to certain rights are not tested when we are talking about OUR rights. My being in favor of the First Amendment in as much as it benefits *me* tells you nothing about my level of commitment to its underlying principles. It is far more telling how we feel about those rights being applied to those we most vehemently disagree with. My position is not an easy one for me to take because my reflexive sympathies lie with the lesbian couple. However, I value and treasure my right to be non-theistic, to be *openly* and *vocally* non-theistic and not worry that I will have some religious police or inquisition come-a-calling in the middle of the night to take me someplace for reeducation. If having to swallow my disdain for the bigotry on display by some Catholic diocese is the price I have to pay for it, then it is a price I am more than willing to pay no matter what kind of bad taste it leaves in my mouth.

Cheers
Aj

p.s. Please don't take my position on Catholicism to be about Catholicism. I am not fond of ANY form of monotheism or, for that matter, theism of any sort.

Originally Posted by softness

DG.....I am not wanting to defend Catholisiscm (sp?) in this thread. I do want to point out that the true debate is the rights of this lesbian couple to send their child to a school of their choice. Choice being the operative defining word.

As an empath, I find it very suffocating spiritually when people are not given choices.

And what message does the church's stance and decision send to those (and all, for that matter) children? That their parents have failed them...all by their lesbianism,

my mother was literally physically thrown out of church and told not to come back when she confessed she and my father were using birth control. Condoms. I was the last child and my birth almost killed my mother. She was TERRIFIED of getting pregnant again. She came to confession to be absolved of her sin, and would not budge when the priest insisted she had to stop using condoms. He got out of his confessional and went to her booth, grabbed her by the arm and put her out the main doors, and said she was no longer welcomed there but her children could come so that the church could at least try to redeem them.

I grew up with that shit in my head. I turned the church against my mother. If not for me, she would have been a good Catholic.

and I want to add one more personal thing here..

I attend mass every once in awhile now. My roots are definitly in pagan ways (my people in the old country were druids) As an adult I dont hold the church responsible for what that one priest did to my mother during that point in history. The priest we have now in that same church is the very reason I came back to going to mass at times. He welcomes my lesbian butt in those pews anytime I want to attend. He didnt flinch when my (now X) butch husband was pall bearer for both my mother and father...in a man's suit and tie. He shook my butch's hand and offered him sympathy for losing his mother in law. So, we also need to say, that not all priests and not all catholics follow doctrine to a T....

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Allison W

I can't imagine why anyone would want to put their children in a Catholic school anyway.

Oh I can think of one off the top of my head: if it's a Jesuit run school the kids WILL get a good education. Will their heads be filled with a lot of religious flimflam? Yes. However, the parts that are *not* a muddle of hogwash and mumbo jumbo will be top-shelf, first class, education.

There are times I WISH I had gone to a Jesuitical school as a kid--not for the theology, of course, but because the kids I knew who did were very well educated. The Jesuits have been at the business of educating youth since, what, the Middle Ages and are very, very good at what they do.

They also happen to be superb at indoctrination but just the emphasis on casuistry (case-based moral reasoning) is, to my mind, worth the risk because it teaches people how to think about reasoning.

Cheers
Aj

[Rockinonahigh]

Before the catholic church can deny anyone anything they had better do some house cleaning..big time.I went to catholic school for eight years..the stuff I saw go on I just kept quiet about after I mentioned it to my grand parents cause they said it wasnt to be talked about because the teachers were men and women of the cloth and I shouldnt judge them anything because they gave up normal family life to serve the church.As I look back, cause I was just a puny little kid at the time, they were full of self ritious bs.
I will say I got a good education and shure stayed out of trouble for the most part even tho I never fit in with anyone are anything at school.I was geting in the hot seat for asking questions they didnt or couldnt anser about the religion cause i always knew so much of what was being cramed into my head was just wrong.The school quietly and quickly closed ten years ago dureing summer break.All the nuns left to parts unknown but all the preist were replaced with new folks cause the church is one of the biggies hear..

Miss.Diva...I am so glad to know that things are working out with your daughter and you.Yeah,both of u missed a lot but just know how much fun it will be to build a wonderful future with both of youselves in it ..much happyness to u both.

[Soft*Silver]

I read your post and smiled...I too want seperation of religion from government. In fact, whenever I have been vocal about this, I have gotten into heated ugly debates. As a 4H agent, I declared that our camp would not just say xtian prayers or sing xtian songs. If one religion's music and prayers were to be at camp, we had to include other religions materials too. Good lord, I really thought I was going to be tarred and feathered! I was trying to uphold our affirmative action policy AND honor the non xtian parents of children who called in and did not want to send their children to a camp that touted xtianity to such a large degree. It got really ugly...including bringing children to executive committee meetings so they would cry because I was changing the traditions of camp...

but I digress....

I respect what you had to say....I think we are more alike than not...

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Softness:

Okay, here's where I have the courage of my convictions. While I think what the church-run school did was odious, bigoted and needlessly small-minded, I ALSO believe that they had the right to do so. In fact, they have a right to do so that supersedes the right of this lesbian couple to send a child to the school of their choice? How so? Because I want to be protected from the Catholic church making public policy (law) in America. The method that protects me from that is the First Amendment. The *price* for "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." (which protects me from having the 80+% of Americans who DO believe in some god or another forcing it down my throat by the use of the democratic process) is that churches can, for the most part, discriminate however they choose, against whomever they choose, for whatever reasons they choose to do so. I may think that discrimination is wrong. I may think that discrimination is odious. I may think that the church doing the discrimination deserves to be roundly excoriating from every hilltop and soapbox in the country. However, that does not mean that I can assert a 'right' to some service that the church provides and expect to have the government enforce that right.

Do the parents of this child have the right to choose a school for their child? Yes. Do the parents of this child have the right to expect that ANY school they choose must accept their child? No. Is that discrimination? Yes. Am I defending discrimination as right? No. My argument is not "the Catholic diocese is correct". My argument is "the Catholic diocese is within their rights to discriminate" because by granting them that right, I keep them on the far side of my government where the amount of harm they can do is mitigated (at least a little bit).

If we state that the parents of this child have a right to send their child to a Catholic school and that the Catholic school is in violation of some non-discrimination clause or another, then we are telling the government to tell the Catholic church how to conduct their affairs. If the government can do that then the Catholic church is within its rights to turn around and petition the government to have its vision of morality foisted upon the rest of us who may not share their belief in a divine being. That foisting, if it were to come to pass, would almost certainly involve laws preventing this lesbian couple from having their child. To prevent that, I may have to put up with things I consider odious or offensive--and those are precisely my judgements about the dioceses' decision regarding this child attending the school.

Our commitment to certain rights are not tested when we are talking about OUR rights. My being in favor of the First Amendment in as much as it benefits *me* tells you nothing about my level of commitment to its underlying principles. It is far more telling how we feel about those rights being applied to those we most vehemently disagree with. My position is not an easy one for me to take because my reflexive sympathies lie with the lesbian couple. However, I value and treasure my right to be non-theistic, to be *openly* and *vocally* non-theistic and not worry that I will have some religious police or inquisition come-a-calling in the middle of the night to take me someplace for reeducation. If having to swallow my disdain for the bigotry on display by some Catholic diocese is the price I have to pay for it, then it is a price I am more than willing to pay no matter what kind of bad taste it leaves in my mouth.

Cheers
Aj

p.s. Please don't take my position on Catholicism to be about Catholicism. I am not fond of ANY form of monotheism or, for that matter, theism of any sort.

[Bit]

If that school does not accept federal funds, then it is not required to abide by federal nondiscrimination policies.

Quite honestly, I believe the girl has been done a HUGE favor. No matter where she goes to school now, she will know that some places are not trustworthy. I wish I had known that as a child, yanno?

[Rook]

This takes the cake.
On Both sides
One has the right to Education...the kids arent queer/lesbian/gay etc.., the parents are.
On the other hand, the archdiocese has every right given by the Bill of Rights as a Religion to enforce their Belief in their Institute however they deem Proper based on their Religion guided by their Head of Church {The Pope, who, if I'm not mistaken, each Pope has publically denounced homosexuality }
The mommies really should've seen this coming a Mile away....Especially if they're catholic {Emphasis on the If cuz I dont see the ladies affiliation}
This hits close to home, I don't have children, yet..
But if I do, I would like to consult my "better half" and be able to decide which education, religious/secular/specialized would be Ideal, and non-traumatic for my children..
I wouldn't want them Miserable in Recess, or P.E., simply because their parents are Different, they have enough on their plate as it is with their own formative years ..
My parents ..well, my father -cough- insisted I attended part-time Madrassahs, in addition to Montessori, when my mother divorced, she had to put us in Public schools, that transition was Hellacious for a few reasons, in addition to learning yet another new language, that and Roman Catholicism was pretty much every where {in addition to Pentecostal}, to the point, I wanted to be in a private catholic school, since the Education seemed ...10 x better.
If I had fights{I'm sure others too}, almost on a daily basis in public junior/High..Imagine what those kids would face in a private Catholic school?
so, yeah, I agree with Aj
Keep church and state Separate, let them pick and Choose, find a better School that teaches Acceptance, maybe Tolerance...
Or..
Home school, if you really really want them educated within Your religion/beliefs..
There are ways to socialize Home Schooled kids.
If it works for the Amish {They're not homeschooling per se, but..they stay amongst themselves for the most part, and after 8th grade, they're removed from School, for religious reasons} ~shrug~ why not?

[Lusciousblondefemme]

I want to thank everyone for having a adult conversation about this subject