Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[Nat]

I sure love my mom. I guess that's the main feeling I'm getting from this thread, reading back over it this morning (okay afternoon but it's still morning to me).

I think conception, pregnancy and birth are pretty damn sacred. I think life is pretty damn sacred. I'm extremely grateful that I exist. My mom could have simply aborted my inconvenient ass, but she instead has made a lifetime of sacrifices for my sake. To me, that's pretty sacred and I am extremely grateful. I have a friend who got pregnant in her teens, carried that child to term and gave him up for adoption. I think that's pretty sacred too. I've had friends who had abortions because they felt their own well-being was more important, and I think this also is sacred because it honors life. I know there are bad moms, but if nothing else, to get here, we were all carried around for approximately 9 months taking up space and feeding off of another person's body when we were too small and fragile and undeveloped to survive outside the womb, and there's something sacred about that to me.

[blush]

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by blush

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Interesting point.

The number of children that is considered desirable or even acceptable varies alot from culture to culture as well.

Friends of mine in Switzerland told me that they were celebrated for their first child, got modest congratulations on their second, and then dirty looks and snide comments in public from strangers after their third. They are white, middle class, professionals...yet Swiss culture evidently frowns on families of more than 2 children as being environmentally and personally irresponsible.

Guess it all depends on where you're coming from...

[friskyfemme]

'What I suggest is a thread where members can identify words/phrases that they find offensive'.

Hey guess what! Medusa start this thread in December 09. Thanks Medusa!
Maybe this thread shoud be required reading before posting! :blushing:

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by blush

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Isn't that show only popular in terms of rubbernecking? I don't know one person (in real life) who doesn't make fun of the Duggars. Hell, ---I--- make fun of the Duggars. I think of them as irresponsible and self-congratulatory.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

[firie]

I think some women are going to view motherhood as very sacred, and so it indeed is. Some women are going to view it as torture, have no connection to a child or children, to the point of harming that child or killing that child. I think sacred as an absolute is or can be very problematic, because it gets into the heart of the myth that "every woman should achieve motherhood to be valued" which for those that don't really want the experience of motherhood but through process of socialization, peer pressure, religious thinking, or whatever else influences that which is beyond a woman's absolute and outright individual will, well, some of those women can and do find themselves along with fetus and child in a great deal of pain perhaps.

I remember many years ago clearly debating with a friend about the "natural" instincts of motherhood, and she schooled me in the knowledge that loving a child wasn't a natural instinct of all women. It made me change my thought process on it all (I was like 23 or so, I think, so very naive). It taught me not to think in absolutes.

I don't know if that makes any sense or is a derail, but I view motherhood as sacred, when it is sacred (meaning that a mother views it as such). I don't view motherhood as sacred when clearly it is not sacred, say in the cases where it has only brought the worst of feelings toward motherhood because, well, motherhood was the mark of oppression and not one of joy, as viewed in the personal experience of a mother. I guess I am speaking from the place, that if a mother told me that she did not view her experience of motherhood as sacred, but instead as tortuous (it's been said to me before), then I wouldn't argue with her and tell her that she is indeed wrong on that, and ALL of motherhood is sacred. I hope this makes sense.

I am not a mother, so therefore, my personal experience cannot inform me if that experience is indeed sacred. I could very well be the mother that views it differently so I cannot judge there and say all of motherhood is sacred.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

no. i was typing fast and using a default male pronoun.
confusing a y for an e is hardly changing your pronoun Dylan.

were we disagreeing?

[Martina]

i had two meetings with parents this week. One adopted a kid whose birth mother had used drugs during her pregnancy. This kid has a conduct disorder. This mother has always done everything she could for her son, spent every dime she could on tutoring, counseling, etc. She works with him daily and is researching right now a placement for him beyond what we can provide. What would her life have been like had she not adopted this child? Much much easier. She has stuck with this kid through thick and thin. He's her son, and she would do anything for him. He's a sweet kid, but difficult is an understatement.

i had another meeting this week with a mother who speaks no English. Her son is seriously emotionally disturbed. She has tried for years to get this kid help. She finally got it this year. She prevailed, and now her child has a chance to live a decent life.

A couple of weeks ago i met with a grandmother raising her grandson. The student is staying out sometimes all night. The grandmother is worried sick, haunted. She is this very grown up working woman. Clearly a woman of great dignity. i offered her a little support and helped work with her grandson so he'd at least call her. She teared up.

These are the parents i see. These are usually poor. Many do not speak English. They are all people of color. They live in or near an unbelievably dangerous neighborhood, and there is the constant threat of violence in their children's lives. They have every disadvantage it is possible to have in this state. And that's how they parent. They are not breeders.

i am going to alternative school graduation today. i have been several times before. You'll never see happier parents in your life. Many of the graduates are kids who others gave up on, including their school district. Trust me, most districts don't put much money into alternative education. When students graduate, it's a testament to them and to their parents.

The only parent i have worked with who made a bad decision concerning her child was middle class and, ironically, an educator. Her ego couldn't take the stigma of putting her son in a certain placement, so the kid didn't get the help he needed. He is now in jail.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by firie

I think sacred as an absolute is or can be very problematic, because it gets into the heart of the myth that "every woman should achieve motherhood to be valued" which for those that don't really want the experience of motherhood but through process of socialization, peer pressure, religious thinking, or whatever else influences that which is beyond a woman's absolute and outright individual will, well, some of those women can and do find themselves along with fetus and child in a great deal of pain perhaps.

My experience of motherhood is sacred to me.

This does not erase the reality of innumerable women and girls all over the world who are daily forced into the condition of motherhood against their ability or right to choose such a condition for themselves. To denounce the use of the term "breeder" even in an effort to construct a framework in understanding how it is used against women by the very paradigm that has created these conditions, seems to me, another method of limiting our choices in how we work to combat what has happened/is happening to us.

No one here - not one person - has argued that this word is not harmful. The original intent, to my reading, was to discuss exactly how harmful the basis for the use of this word is. And, yes, it's pretty fucking horrific. But not to be able to utilize it as a means of discussing the origins of its nefarious uses -- whether mine, yours or the patriarchy's -- is only another way to make secret what should be emblazoned across the consciousness of every woman everywhere.

[SuperFemme]

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. So I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation.

[WolfyOne]

Growing up in Chicago and hanging out in bars back then, I heard the word often. Usually though it was to describe heterosexuals that picked on homosexuals. So, I never thought about it being demeaning then. After reading posts here, I understand where all of you are coming from. Funny how the definition of a word and the way it's used over the last 30 years has changed so much.

SF thanks for enlightening me on a word I haven't heard in ages nor use in my everyday vocabulary.

[SuperFemme]

Maybe the change in times has come around in that I don't hate straight people per se? I think *my* derogatory word for straight person is *right wing* these days. Which is probably just as side ways considering that I go to church and am offending all Christians sideways.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. Si I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation.

Thanks for your apology.

I understand exactly what you're saying about the term breeder feeling erasing and hurtful. As someone who is female-bodied, I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. Firie has already explained this isn't a word we use (in the sense you're speaking of).

My use of it was *intentional* and meant to be...er...um...what's the word I want...offensive I guess, because I DO find the way the patriarchy views women and grooms girls to be baby-making machines *offensive*.

Again, being that I was making a correlation between FLDS (which is a horribly misogynist society which openly treats women as such through numerous grooming techniques) and mainstream US/Western culture and the sexism/grooming therein, my use of the word was *intentional*

Yes, I agree 100% that the term is offensive...that's why I used it...it was the whole point of the original post...that it IS offensive the way girls are groomed


Dylan

[evolveme]

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

[SuperFemme]

What I really wanted to explore was the offensive way we use the term against one another (or anyone) but I can see that that is limiting so let's just discuss.

[firie]

Originally Posted by evolveme

My experience of motherhood is sacred to me.

This does not erase the reality of innumerable women and girls all over the world who are daily forced into the condition of motherhood against their ability or right to choose such a condition for themselves. To denounce the use of the term "breeder" even in an effort to construct a framework in understanding how it is used against women by the very paradigm that has created these conditions, seems to me, another method of limiting our choices in how we work to combat what has happened/is happening to us.

No one here - not one person - has argued that this word is not harmful. The original intent, to my reading, was to discuss exactly how harmful the basis for the use of this word is. And, yes, it's pretty fucking horrific. But not to be able to utilize it as a means of discussing the origins of its nefarious uses -- whether mine, yours or the patriarchy's -- is only another way to make secret what should be emblazoned across the consciousness of every woman everywhere.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

Exactly. And I would admit to typically trying to avoid the word "sacred" when describing motherhood unless a mother tells me that is her word to describe her experience, because I tend to quite shy away from words that do have a certain "religious" quality to them (it's my stubborn atheism perhaps) . But if that is the experience of the mother, then that, to me, is a beautiful, marvelous thing.

[evolveme]

I was half-way through with labor before I realized I was in it (5 centimeters dilated). She was born in under 2 hours. My obstetrician looked at me and said, "You need to be camped out on the hospital grounds the last two months of your next pregnancy. You're a natural breeder."

He really said that. I was twenty years-old. I knew enough to be mortified.

[Martina]

So how about saying parenting is or should be sacred -- in the sense of being among a culture's highest values.

Parenting should be more highly valued and rewarded in our culture.

Raising girls with no other goal other than that they will procreate is dehumanizing. (i don't even like the word "grooming," btw.)

But the people who experience it are still fully human. And parenting itself is not dehumanizing. On the contrary. For most people it is an experience that gets them more in touch with their humanity.

For others it is a nightmare. That is when we should all help.

Part of the reason it isn't as pleasant as it should be here in the west has nothing to do with how voluntary it is, but the fact that parents are left on their own without the support of extended family and community.

But the assumption that women who are parents involuntarily are necessarily living any lesser a life than you and i are is incredibly elitist. Do i think the world should change so that all women get to choose? Absolutely. But those who aren't given the choice in the sense that we mean here -- and that is probably most women on the planet -- are not by definition dehumanized by this. It's arrogant to assume so.

One of my best friends -- a man -- just called. He didn't really want to have kids, but his wife did. He chose to have children in the sense that he didn't absolutely refuse. Well as things turned out, his wife's career took off in a big way. Guess who became the primary caretaker? This has been the case for over 14 years now. This guy is a genius. He is highly educated. He is emotionally healthy. All he has done other than parent for these many years is teach part-time. That's a contribution. But i am sure some people might think all that IQ power and education have gone to waste. i do not. He does not. In fact, he has loved every minute of it. His kids, especially, do not.