The Ethics of Closets and Outings

Nat · 08-31-2010, 07:00 PM

What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of:

1. Living in the closet

A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions?

B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times?

2. Outing others

A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions?

B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person?

C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they?

D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they?

Corkey · 08-31-2010, 07:25 PM

What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of:

1. Living in the closet
A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions?
Ethical, no personal choice to do so or not.

B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times?
Moral, again no, it is a personal choice to do so or not.
2. Outing others
A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions?
[COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]No. never.[/COLOR]

B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing an another person? I don't out others ever it is their choice or not.

C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they?
Someone's sexual orientation is none of my business.

D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they?
[COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]Yes, it is no one else's business how another person expresses their orientation.[/COLOR]

betenoire · 08-31-2010, 07:32 PM

I don't think this is an ethical issue at all. It's deeply personal, and I have no judgement toward anybody who is closeted in any area of their life. For some people remaining closeted is necessary for their physical safety, for others it is necessary for their remaining employed (or at least for working in a bullshit-free environment).

I DO think that outing other people IS an ethical issue. It is -wrong- to out another person - point blank. There is never a situation in which it is okay to out someone else. It is their story to tell - not mine. And as for whether or not it's okay to sit around speculating about other people's sexual orientation - my personal policy regarding this (and about everything personal) is that I don't know anything about anybody unless they have told it to me themself. Playing homo-detective is creepy, I don't like it.

SuperFemme · 08-31-2010, 07:44 PM

What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of:

1. Living in the closet

A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions?

I think it's a personal choice. The exception to that is a politician who is in the closet and consistently voting against GLBTQ rights.

B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times?

I think that the moral/ethical obligation of a politician is to be honest with their constituents.

2. Outing others

A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions?

Only politicians or anti-gay folks who play toe tapping games in public restrooms and frequent rentboy.com.

B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person?

There has only been one person in my life who has put me in the position of lying about their sexuality. We were together but she insisted on being in the closet, meaning I had to participate in untruths about both myself and her to make this happen. It made me uneasy every second I was doing it. In the end it is what broke us apart.

C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they?

That depends on the arena. If I am at Home Depot and I say to my honey "Oh, look at the cute butch" no harm no foul. If we are talking about public figures then no, it's not cool for everyone to speculate that say...Ellen Kagan is a big ole dyke cuz she played softball.

D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they?

For me, yes. Not to judge the person who is at that place in their journey but that is just not for me. I am out and can't shove myself back in the closet while I wait for a loved one to catch up. This kind of only applies to a person I would be romantically involved with, because that is a situation where we would be all intertwined and living authentically would be impossible.

For the dozen or so kids that we have coming through our house that are queer or questioning and afraid? I would never out them to anyone due to safety reasons. In fact, I'm always very careful when dealing with the parents of these kids.

On a side note? I get kind of squicky with the words moral and ethical used in conjunction with a persons sexuality. It makes me feel like a judgment is being placed on homosexuality that isn't on heterosexuality. Nobody asks heterosexuals if there are moral or ethical concerns on coming out or living as a straight person.

Toughy · 08-31-2010, 09:05 PM

If you are a public person or elected official and you are homophobic or support homophobic laws AND you are a homosexual.....you are a hypocrite and should be outed.....loudly and often. Ken Melman and his predecessor Lee Atwater are the first to pop in my mind..........the list is long.

I can not live a lie. I have been out my entire adult life. I don't understand how other folks live a lie. It's probably why the suicide rate is so high.

Nat · 08-31-2010, 09:23 PM

Today I almost posted in the "Famous / Highly Visible Queers" thread about a celebrity who has not stated explicitly their orientation. Despite mounting evidence and despite my strong interest (okay as far as celebrity interest goes) in having this person *on the team,* I felt like it was not the ethical thing to do. But it brought me to the place of asking these questions of myself, and I thought maybe they'd be interesting in this forum as well.

1. Living in the closet

A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions?

Yes, I do. I don't think it's as clear as right or wrong, but I do think there are ethical concerns. Some of these would be - care for the safety of oneself and others, honesty / authenticity, loyalty toward oneself and others, justice, discretion. I don't think all of these weigh the same for each person or each situation, and I think these concerns could weigh on either side of the decision. For me personally, I do feel that being out is more ethical behavior/decision than being in. But I do understand that my own perspective about my own life is not something I can extrapolate and apply to others - I haven't walked in anybody's shoes but my own.

B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times?

I will refrain from commenting on the more ordinary circumstances people find themselves in and will either comment on my own life or on some of the more extreme examples out there. When I left my husband (over 5 years ago now), I felt very much that it was wrong of me to marry him. I did tell him what I knew of my own orientation all along, but I didn't really understand myself so much back then. As bad as I felt about having unintentionally underemphasized my orientation, I would have felt far worse if I'd represented myself as totally straight to him when I knew I was not. So I guess I would say that people you are in serious romantic relationships with deserve to know your orientation - assuming it's safe to share with them. I feel a bit entitled to at least a cursory understanding of my partner's orientation.

I feel that people who live in countries where they could be put to death, imprisoned, etc, for being gay may have an ethical obligation toward self-preservation. This one is harder for me to really get a handle on, but I would hate to see anybody commit suicide by coming out.

I feel that people who persecute gay people have an obligation to come out once they figure out their orientation because it's the only way to help rectify the damage they have caused to others through their projections of self-hatred.

2. Outing others

A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions?

This one's hard for me. I am glad when people are outed - especially when the outed people are anti-gay. It's a relief to me of sorts. At the same time, I feel very strange about the straight guy who outed politicians in the move "Outrage."

I don't have issues with outing the dead. Maybe I should? I have definitely posted some people in the "famous / highly visible queers" thread who had never come out when alive, even if evidence from their lives, letters, interviews, writings seems to suggest they were queer. To me that feels more like reclaiming our gay history, but maybe it's not so great a thing to do? This is an area I haven't figured out yet.

B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person?

I really don't think about it much, but I am moving into a profession where I will need to be much more careful. Also, dating a person who has spent significant time in the military has given me an opportunity to understand the negative ramifications of inadvertently outing a person.

C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they?

I've really been pretty fast and loose with this, but I am beginning to understand how damaging that could be. Discretion has never been my best character trait, but the older I get the more necessary it feels that I learn how to have more of it.

D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they?

Yes, I feel like there could be ethical concerns on both sides of that one.

Soft*Silver · 08-31-2010, 10:18 PM

1. Living in the closet

A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions? I stayed closeted in AA for awhile out of self preservation. I needed to work on staying sober, and gaining a community and a network of close friends in recovery. One by one they were told. That was early on. Now, at my latest lead, I announce I am a lesbian and tell people I come out in my leads because some people cant, because they dont feel safe, like I didnt. I remind them this is an honest program and that homophobia can keep someone from being honest and lead to a relapse.

I also think children of LGBTIQ community also need to have a say in their own outing. As I raised my daughter, I was consciously aware that if I was brash in the school arena with my orientation, it outed her as a child of LGBTIQ. I let her take the reins and she did it well. Ethically I felt it was the right thing to do to protect her rights...and children DO have rights.

Religiously, some people cant be out or they lose their place in their church, let alone their religion. Is this right? No. But I would NEVER expect someone to chose their spirituality over the politics of gender and orientation.

Politicians who are closeted and are anti gay in their voting, SHOULD be outed.

B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times? read above

2. Outing others

A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions? read above

B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person? very. It unnerves me how many people ask me if so and so is gay because they are friends with me and think they have an "in:" to our world.

C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they? it just doesnt happen seriously in my world. If someone wants to speculate with me, I ask them what they like about that person because I have a friend that is soooo like him or her and can fix them up....

D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they? I have a friend who is closeted. She is not ready to come out. She is on a journey and it is not MY place to tell her she must come out. People who want to date me who are closeted are told point blank that I am not, and if they associate with me, people will assume so its their choice...if they are ready, good. If not, they need to reconsider their offer of a date...

Diva · 09-01-2010, 08:49 AM

This will be short and sweet.

My ex-husband outed me to my parents shortly after we divorced.
During our custody trial, that came out.
And I believe that information belongs to one person and one person only: ME.
We were in a bitter custody battle. I am not proud to say that I outed my former brother-in-law (my ex-husband's brother) in the courtroom......in front of my ex, his wife & his mother.....

But I can also tell You this: I would have outed Mother Teresa (if she'd been a lesbian) if I thought it would have won my children. I'm a Mama Bear like that.

So do I believe in outing someone ~ even a hypocrite? No. It is their story to tell. And I can only imagine the inner turmoil they experience every waking moment is a far greater pain than any humiliation the world would give them. This I know from personal experience.

julieisafemme · 09-01-2010, 12:40 PM

I have a huge problem with the word authenticity in these discussions. Who is to say if someone is living authentically? Really!

I also see this issue as far as gender and transition outing. That has been a very unpleasant experience for Greyson and I. Is a transman or woman not living authentically if they do not disclose their transition?

Unless someone is an elected official who is voting to deny me civil rights or protections they should not be outed. Period.

SuperFemme · 09-01-2010, 01:13 PM

I use the word "authentic" in these discussions only in relation to self.
It is not my place (or anyones for that matter) to decide what is or is not authentic for another human being.

julieisafemme · 09-01-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I use the word "authentic" in these discussions only in relation to self.
It is not my place (or anyones for that matter) to decide what is or is not authentic for another human being.

I am not referring to this discussion here. Just in general. There was a big discussion on FB one time and Queen Latifah came up as not living authentically. This was specifically about public figures and celebrities. The idea was that it is ok to out celebrities or public figures. That they owe the queer community that for being high profile. I don't agree with that. Unless they are elected officials.

SuperFemme · 09-01-2010, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not referring to this discussion here. Just in general. There was a big discussion on FB one time and Queen Latifah came up as not living authentically. This was specifically about public figures and celebrities. The idea was that it is ok to out celebrities or public figures. That they owe the queer community that for being high profile. I don't agree with that. Unless they are elected officials.

oh i see.
and i agree.

i'm not even mad at oprah and gayle. (kidding, kidding)

Nat · 09-01-2010, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I have a huge problem with the word authenticity in these discussions. Who is to say if someone is living authentically? Really!

I also see this issue as far as gender and transition outing. That has been a very unpleasant experience for Greyson and I. Is a transman or woman not living authentically if they do not disclose their transition?

Unless someone is an elected official who is voting to deny me civil rights or protections they should not be outed. Period.

I almost said in the first post that this thread was not intended to discuss gender but rather to discuss orientation - but then I felt that would limit the conversation overly much. So I'm wondering - since you brought up gender outing - do you see a difference between gender outing and orientation outing?

Nat · 09-01-2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not referring to this discussion here. Just in general. There was a big discussion on FB one time and Queen Latifah came up as not living authentically. This was specifically about public figures and celebrities. The idea was that it is ok to out celebrities or public figures. That they owe the queer community that for being high profile. I don't agree with that. Unless they are elected officials.

and you see, this might be an example of where my question stems from. Is it wrong to bring up people like Queen Latifah in public forums? She is living with a woman, has been photographed somewhat intimately with said woman, but she herself refuses to talk about her orientation. Is it respectful for us to bring her up here, on a queer forum in a thread about closets and outings, or is it violative to do so?

Maria · 09-01-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nat

I almost said in the first post that this thread was not intended to discuss gender but rather to discuss orientation - but then I felt that would limit the conversation overly much. So I'm wondering - since you brought up gender outing - do you see a difference between gender outing and orientation outing?

I have mixed feelings about orientation outing and pretty much agree with Toughy in that respect. With regard to gender outing, however, I strongly believe it is never my place to do so.

Corkey · 09-01-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nat

and you see, this might be an example of where my question stems from. Is it wrong to bring up people like Queen Latifah in public forums? She is living with a woman, has been photographed somewhat intimately with said woman, but she herself refuses to talk about her orientation. Is it respectful for us to bring her up here, on a queer forum in a thread about closets and outings, or is it violative to do so?

It is still Queen Latifah's choice to discuss her sexual orientation. Whether we discuss it or not isn't the issue, lots of folks are gonna talk because of those pictures. Did she give up her rights to her image? I doubt it, but she was seen in public, so in a since she outed herself. That was her decision, not us in her bedroom asking her. Folks are gonna gossip about any number of celeb d' jour. Is it really our business, I say no, 'cause I don't really give a f*. It's her life.

Boots13 · 09-01-2010, 08:05 PM

What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of:

1. Living in the closet

A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions?
Is it moral or ethical for me to express an opinion about somebody elses decision to be closeted? Barring public, political or religious figures using their position of power to sway public opinion , I dont think its my business.

B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times?
As long as we have DADT, I will never question an individuals decision to live a closeted lifestyle.

2. Outing others

A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions?
If a person of power or influence has the audacity to ostracize my (our?) lifestyles, I'd love to see a public outing on that individual. The whole "glass house" thing.
I know, I'm a vengeful SOB, arent I!

B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person?
Everyone I know is "out" and I've been out since high school so I dont think that outing someone is even on my radar. I would respect the wishes of a friend who was closeted, though difficulty would arise because I am not closeted and my family, friends and co-workers all know me.

C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they?
I guess theres a difference between "Isnt he fabulous?!"
and "what a flamer!" , but really, what does it matter?
I'm not sleeping with that individual, and sexuality or orientation isnt primary on my radar.
I'm more of a "what a cool person" rather than
" I wonder if they're queer"

D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they?
I would respect the request, but that would sadly limit my interaction with my closeted friend, only because everyone who knows me, knows my orientation.

waxnrope · 09-01-2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nat

and you see, this might be an example of where my question stems from. Is it wrong to bring up people like Queen Latifah in public forums? She is living with a woman, has been photographed somewhat intimately with said woman, but she herself refuses to talk about her orientation. Is it respectful for us to bring her up here, on a queer forum in a thread about closets and outings, or is it violative to do so?

I don't think that you understand about the multiple communities someone like Latifa might belong. As a POC, as a respected musician and actor who owes her success because of her gift and primarily because of the black community. The latter being, in general, extremely homophobic. In the traditional black church, this homophobia is doubly so. I could write a treatise on the relationship/s between the traditional black church's stance on homophobia (everyone knows the choir director is ... and the preacher condemns homosexuals, etc) and the rise of HIV infection in African Americans. Including some women who Chase these gay men. But there I go ... sorry. What I'm trying to say about Latifa is that her situation is complex. You may, by insisting that she discuss, or otherwise bring increasing attention to her, bring about het dismissal from her chosen community/ies. No matter how you or I may consider this as inauthentic, we are not the ones to suffer being ousted from the beloved community. It is surely her decision, AND that of her partner. You (general you) have no idea what she faces.

If her only choice was to stay closeted versus joining the planet, and given some lack of thought expressed here with respect to race, I'd slam that closet door, and lock her ass in there. Just saying...

Nat · 09-01-2010, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waxnrope

I don't think that you understand about the multiple communities someone like Latifa might belong. As a POC, as a respected musician and actor who owes her success because of her gift and primarily because of the black community. The latter being, in general, extremely homophobic. In the traditional black church, this homophobia is doubly so. I could write a treatise on the relationship/s between the traditional black church's stance on homophobia (everyone knows the choir director is ... and the preacher condemns homosexuals, etc) and the rise of HIV infection in African Americans. Including some women who Chase these gay men. But there I go ... sorry. What I'm trying to say about Latifa is that her situation is complex. You may, by insisting that she discuss, or otherwise bring increasing attention to her, bring about het dismissal from her chosen community/ies. No matter how you or I may consider this as inauthentic, we are not the ones to suffer being ousted from the beloved community. It is surely her decision, AND that of her partner. You (general you) have no idea what she faces.

If her only choice was to stay closeted versus joining the planet, and given some lack of thought expressed here with respect to race, I'd slam that closet door, and lock her ass in there. Just saying...

I most definitely do not understand experientially what it would be like to be in her shoes. I can try to figure it out in my head, but I can't know what it's like. Thanks for bringing up some of the other factors she faces.

julieisafemme · 09-02-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waxnrope

I don't think that you understand about the multiple communities someone like Latifa might belong. As a POC, as a respected musician and actor who owes her success because of her gift and primarily because of the black community. The latter being, in general, extremely homophobic. In the traditional black church, this homophobia is doubly so. I could write a treatise on the relationship/s between the traditional black church's stance on homophobia (everyone knows the choir director is ... and the preacher condemns homosexuals, etc) and the rise of HIV infection in African Americans. Including some women who Chase these gay men. But there I go ... sorry. What I'm trying to say about Latifa is that her situation is complex. You may, by insisting that she discuss, or otherwise bring increasing attention to her, bring about het dismissal from her chosen community/ies. No matter how you or I may consider this as inauthentic, we are not the ones to suffer being ousted from the beloved community. It is surely her decision, AND that of her partner. You (general you) have no idea what she faces.

If her only choice was to stay closeted versus joining the planet, and given some lack of thought expressed here with respect to race, I'd slam that closet door, and lock her ass in there. Just saying...

This is exactly what was brought up in the discussion I mentioned. Thank you for adding that.

08-31-2010, 07:00 PM	#1
Nat Senior Member How Do You Identify?: bigender Preferred Pronoun?: whatevs Relationship Status: in a relationship Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tx Posts: 3,535 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,042 Thanked 13,992 Times in 2,594 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	The Ethics of Closets and Outings What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of: 1. Living in the closet A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions? B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times? 2. Outing others A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions? B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person? C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they? D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they? __________________ I'm a fountain of blood. In the shape of a girl. - Bjork What is to give light must endure burning. -Viktor Frankl

08-31-2010, 07:25 PM	#2
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,299 Times in 6,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of: 1. Living in the closet A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions? Ethical, no personal choice to do so or not. B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times? Moral, again no, it is a personal choice to do so or not. 2. Outing others A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions? [COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]No. never.[/COLOR] B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing an another person? I don't out others ever it is their choice or not. C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they? Someone's sexual orientation is none of my business. D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they? [COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]Yes, it is no one else's business how another person expresses their orientation.[/COLOR] __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

08-31-2010, 07:32 PM	#3
betenoire Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Satan in a Sunday Hat Preferred Pronoun?: Maow Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: The Chemical Valley Posts: 4,086 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,312 Thanked 8,742 Times in 2,566 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I don't think this is an ethical issue at all. It's deeply personal, and I have no judgement toward anybody who is closeted in any area of their life. For some people remaining closeted is necessary for their physical safety, for others it is necessary for their remaining employed (or at least for working in a bullshit-free environment). I DO think that outing other people IS an ethical issue. It is -wrong- to out another person - point blank. There is never a situation in which it is okay to out someone else. It is their story to tell - not mine. And as for whether or not it's okay to sit around speculating about other people's sexual orientation - my personal policy regarding this (and about everything personal) is that I don't know anything about anybody unless they have told it to me themself. Playing homo-detective is creepy, I don't like it. __________________ bête noire \bet-NWAHR\, noun: One that is particularly disliked or that is to be avoided.

08-31-2010, 07:44 PM	#4
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,109 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of: 1. Living in the closet A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions? I think it's a personal choice. The exception to that is a politician who is in the closet and consistently voting against GLBTQ rights. B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times? I think that the moral/ethical obligation of a politician is to be honest with their constituents. 2. Outing others A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions? Only politicians or anti-gay folks who play toe tapping games in public restrooms and frequent rentboy.com. B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person? There has only been one person in my life who has put me in the position of lying about their sexuality. We were together but she insisted on being in the closet, meaning I had to participate in untruths about both myself and her to make this happen. It made me uneasy every second I was doing it. In the end it is what broke us apart. C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they? That depends on the arena. If I am at Home Depot and I say to my honey "Oh, look at the cute butch" no harm no foul. If we are talking about public figures then no, it's not cool for everyone to speculate that say...Ellen Kagan is a big ole dyke cuz she played softball. D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they? For me, yes. Not to judge the person who is at that place in their journey but that is just not for me. I am out and can't shove myself back in the closet while I wait for a loved one to catch up. This kind of only applies to a person I would be romantically involved with, because that is a situation where we would be all intertwined and living authentically would be impossible. For the dozen or so kids that we have coming through our house that are queer or questioning and afraid? I would never out them to anyone due to safety reasons. In fact, I'm always very careful when dealing with the parents of these kids. On a side note? I get kind of squicky with the words moral and ethical used in conjunction with a persons sexuality. It makes me feel like a judgment is being placed on homosexuality that isn't on heterosexuality. Nobody asks heterosexuals if there are moral or ethical concerns on coming out or living as a straight person.

08-31-2010, 09:05 PM	#5
Toughy Senior Member How Do You Identify?: pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?: see above Relationship Status: independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oakland Posts: 1,826 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,068 Thanked 7,656 Times in 1,522 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	If you are a public person or elected official and you are homophobic or support homophobic laws AND you are a homosexual.....you are a hypocrite and should be outed.....loudly and often. Ken Melman and his predecessor Lee Atwater are the first to pop in my mind..........the list is long. I can not live a lie. I have been out my entire adult life. I don't understand how other folks live a lie. It's probably why the suicide rate is so high. __________________ We are everywhere We are different I do not care if resistance is futile I will not assimilate www.butchfemmesocials.com/

08-31-2010, 09:23 PM	#6
Nat Senior Member How Do You Identify?: bigender Preferred Pronoun?: whatevs Relationship Status: in a relationship Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tx Posts: 3,535 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,042 Thanked 13,992 Times in 2,594 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	Today I almost posted in the "Famous / Highly Visible Queers" thread about a celebrity who has not stated explicitly their orientation. Despite mounting evidence and despite my strong interest (okay as far as celebrity interest goes) in having this person on the team, I felt like it was not the ethical thing to do. But it brought me to the place of asking these questions of myself, and I thought maybe they'd be interesting in this forum as well. 1. Living in the closet A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions? Yes, I do. I don't think it's as clear as right or wrong, but I do think there are ethical concerns. Some of these would be - care for the safety of oneself and others, honesty / authenticity, loyalty toward oneself and others, justice, discretion. I don't think all of these weigh the same for each person or each situation, and I think these concerns could weigh on either side of the decision. For me personally, I do feel that being out is more ethical behavior/decision than being in. But I do understand that my own perspective about my own life is not something I can extrapolate and apply to others - I haven't walked in anybody's shoes but my own. B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times? I will refrain from commenting on the more ordinary circumstances people find themselves in and will either comment on my own life or on some of the more extreme examples out there. When I left my husband (over 5 years ago now), I felt very much that it was wrong of me to marry him. I did tell him what I knew of my own orientation all along, but I didn't really understand myself so much back then. As bad as I felt about having unintentionally underemphasized my orientation, I would have felt far worse if I'd represented myself as totally straight to him when I knew I was not. So I guess I would say that people you are in serious romantic relationships with deserve to know your orientation - assuming it's safe to share with them. I feel a bit entitled to at least a cursory understanding of my partner's orientation. I feel that people who live in countries where they could be put to death, imprisoned, etc, for being gay may have an ethical obligation toward self-preservation. This one is harder for me to really get a handle on, but I would hate to see anybody commit suicide by coming out. I feel that people who persecute gay people have an obligation to come out once they figure out their orientation because it's the only way to help rectify the damage they have caused to others through their projections of self-hatred. 2. Outing others A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions? This one's hard for me. I am glad when people are outed - especially when the outed people are anti-gay. It's a relief to me of sorts. At the same time, I feel very strange about the straight guy who outed politicians in the move "Outrage." I don't have issues with outing the dead. Maybe I should? I have definitely posted some people in the "famous / highly visible queers" thread who had never come out when alive, even if evidence from their lives, letters, interviews, writings seems to suggest they were queer. To me that feels more like reclaiming our gay history, but maybe it's not so great a thing to do? This is an area I haven't figured out yet. B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person? I really don't think about it much, but I am moving into a profession where I will need to be much more careful. Also, dating a person who has spent significant time in the military has given me an opportunity to understand the negative ramifications of inadvertently outing a person. C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they? I've really been pretty fast and loose with this, but I am beginning to understand how damaging that could be. Discretion has never been my best character trait, but the older I get the more necessary it feels that I learn how to have more of it. D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they? Yes, I feel like there could be ethical concerns on both sides of that one. __________________ I'm a fountain of blood. In the shape of a girl. - Bjork What is to give light must endure burning. -Viktor Frankl

08-31-2010, 10:18 PM	#7
SoftSilver Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: rose cottage Posts: 5,506 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 8,448 Thanked 15,635 Times in 3,981 Posts Rep Power*: 21474856	1. Living in the closet A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions? I stayed closeted in AA for awhile out of self preservation. I needed to work on staying sober, and gaining a community and a network of close friends in recovery. One by one they were told. That was early on. Now, at my latest lead, I announce I am a lesbian and tell people I come out in my leads because some people cant, because they dont feel safe, like I didnt. I remind them this is an honest program and that homophobia can keep someone from being honest and lead to a relapse. I also think children of LGBTIQ community also need to have a say in their own outing. As I raised my daughter, I was consciously aware that if I was brash in the school arena with my orientation, it outed her as a child of LGBTIQ. I let her take the reins and she did it well. Ethically I felt it was the right thing to do to protect her rights...and children DO have rights. Religiously, some people cant be out or they lose their place in their church, let alone their religion. Is this right? No. But I would NEVER expect someone to chose their spirituality over the politics of gender and orientation. Politicians who are closeted and are anti gay in their voting, SHOULD be outed. B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times? read above 2. Outing others A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions? read above B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person? very. It unnerves me how many people ask me if so and so is gay because they are friends with me and think they have an "in:" to our world. C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they? it just doesnt happen seriously in my world. If someone wants to speculate with me, I ask them what they like about that person because I have a friend that is soooo like him or her and can fix them up.... D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they? I have a friend who is closeted. She is not ready to come out. She is on a journey and it is not MY place to tell her she must come out. People who want to date me who are closeted are told point blank that I am not, and if they associate with me, people will assume so its their choice...if they are ready, good. If not, they need to reconsider their offer of a date... __________________ Pole bachit, a lis chuye. The field sees, the forest hears

09-01-2010, 08:49 AM	#8
Diva Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Diva Preferred Pronoun?: Diva Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Chez Diva Posts: 11,879 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,263 Thanked 17,179 Times in 5,238 Posts Rep Power: 0	This will be short and sweet. My ex-husband outed me to my parents shortly after we divorced. During our custody trial, that came out. And I believe that information belongs to one person and one person only: ME. We were in a bitter custody battle. I am not proud to say that I outed my former brother-in-law (my ex-husband's brother) in the courtroom......in front of my ex, his wife & his mother..... But I can also tell You this: I would have outed Mother Teresa (if she'd been a lesbian) if I thought it would have won my children. I'm a Mama Bear like that. So do I believe in outing someone ~ even a hypocrite? No. It is their story to tell. And I can only imagine the inner turmoil they experience every waking moment is a far greater pain than any humiliation the world would give them. This I know from personal experience.

09-01-2010, 12:40 PM	#9
julieisafemme Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Woman Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Married to Greyson Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In the present Posts: 828 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,156 Thanked 3,445 Times in 660 Posts Rep Power: 21474851	I have a huge problem with the word authenticity in these discussions. Who is to say if someone is living authentically? Really! I also see this issue as far as gender and transition outing. That has been a very unpleasant experience for Greyson and I. Is a transman or woman not living authentically if they do not disclose their transition? Unless someone is an elected official who is voting to deny me civil rights or protections they should not be outed. Period.

09-01-2010, 01:13 PM	#10
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,109 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	I use the word "authentic" in these discussions only in relation to self. It is not my place (or anyones for that matter) to decide what is or is not authentic for another human being.

09-01-2010, 08:05 PM	#17
Boots13 Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: No Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: PNW Posts: 823 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,387 Thanked 2,315 Times in 428 Posts Rep Power: 21474851	What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of: 1. Living in the closet A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions? Is it moral or ethical for me to express an opinion about somebody elses decision to be closeted? Barring public, political or religious figures using their position of power to sway public opinion , I dont think its my business. B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times? As long as we have DADT, I will never question an individuals decision to live a closeted lifestyle. 2. Outing others A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions? If a person of power or influence has the audacity to ostracize my (our?) lifestyles, I'd love to see a public outing on that individual. The whole "glass house" thing. I know, I'm a vengeful SOB, arent I! B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person? Everyone I know is "out" and I've been out since high school so I dont think that outing someone is even on my radar. I would respect the wishes of a friend who was closeted, though difficulty would arise because I am not closeted and my family, friends and co-workers all know me. C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they? I guess theres a difference between "Isnt he fabulous?!" and "what a flamer!" , but really, what does it matter? I'm not sleeping with that individual, and sexuality or orientation isnt primary on my radar. I'm more of a "what a cool person" rather than " I wonder if they're queer" D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they? I would respect the request, but that would sadly limit my interaction with my closeted friend, only because everyone who knows me, knows my orientation.