Open Letter: Dear Femme

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddmaned day when you say shit like this!

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?



*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddmaned day when you say shit like this!

I love it when we curse.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Diva

And this is the crux of the matter, n'est pas?

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory? I can be cordial to just about anyone....but I don't feel I need to be joined at the hip to a femme just because.....does that make me a femme betrayor....a community slayer?
I can love everyone....but I don't think that means I must LIKE everyone, does it?

Well, dog no.

If you're an out and out dicknit, I'm not likely to give you the time of day.

Besides, I don't wear a watch,

e

[bonne-maman]

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.

Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Diva

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory?

Diva, I could never be friends with someone just because of any one thing......and I don't expect it from anyone else either. I just think if ya don't wanna be friends with someone, ya don't, like, point it all out and such. "if you can't say something good about your neighbor, don't say nothin at all"

Originally Posted by evolveme

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?

*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

Oh yeah, good stuff there e. This is back to the whole id/ego thing. Yeah, we all represent to each other what we fear and feel inadequate about in ourselves. This is why diversity in any situation brings such strength to all. If we can love and be comfortable with people who are not just different, but who we are uncomfortable with or fear, then our inner being type-self is getting super-strong. Ok, this lesbian-speak is freakin me out.

Originally Posted by Diva

I love it when we curse.

I fucking love it too Diva.

[blush]

So Goof and I have been talking about this thread all morning over coffee.

And I prattled onandonandon about how the femmes will trot into "masculine-space" discussions (ie--the Butch Identity thread or the Braveheart thread) and throw our pennies down, but in "femme-space" threads, it is rare that the attention is reciprocated.

It took 13 posts in here before little man posted.

In a "masculine-space" thread, usually the 3rd or 4th post is a femme.

Why?

Now, Goof pointed out that he doesn't generally post in femme-spaces because he thinks we need this space without interference. Which I totally get. BUT would we rather have the support or the space?

And now I'm being told I have to go because my breakfast is getting cold.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by blush

So Goof and I have been talking about this thread all morning over coffee.

And I prattled onandonandon about how the femmes will trot into "masculine-space" discussions (ie--the Butch Identity thread or the Braveheart thread) and throw our pennies down, but in "femme-space" threads, it is rare that the attention is reciprocated.

It took 13 posts in here before little man posted.

In a "masculine-space" thread, usually the 3rd or 4th post is a femme.

Why?

Now, Goof pointed out that he doesn't generally post in femme-spaces because he thinks we need this space without interference. Which I totally get. BUT would we rather have the support or the space?

And now I'm being told I have to go because my breakfast is getting cold.

Personally, I prefer the support.

And I think it's about damn time.

AND... I have no trouble at all pointing out when it starts to read too much about them.

Thanks for pointing this out, blush; I've been wanting to say something too.

[Passionaria]

WOW, I so appreciate this.

Sisters VS competitors

In the Pollyanna of my heart, where the world resides in a flow of goodness I deeply desire to see women, femmes as my sisters. In this place we have ethical boundaries, kind intentions, create a support system where we take joy in watching each other blossom into the most beautiful flowers we can be. A place where our hearts are safe, and trust is an abundant commodity. I have met a few femmes who I can honestly share this space, and I love them for this.

I am somewhat new to this community, and I have to say I have been shocked by some of the things I have witnessed in the name of getting the butch. I don't know why, because straight women do it all the time. I guess I had hoped that a group of women with no men involved would just "do better". Were women after all why can't we figure it out?????

I think the story may be, we're humans and being loved is a basic human need. We all want it but are conditioned to believe we don't automatically deserve it, just because we were born, which I think is the truth. We are taught to compete and fight for it, be pretty enough, sexy enough, Susie homemaker enough, just the right blend of innocent and naughty, and if we're the best f*** ever, we will surely be loved. So I agree this is a tall order to fill, and it's exhausting to be worthy of love. How can we not be afraid, afraid of not being worthy. It's like the golden carrot or something I'll try harder, just love me. I think that is where the competition come from.

I think it is important to note, that we did not create these conditions, we were born into them. So, do we owe allegiance to these false pretenses? What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????

Maybe the real power is in loving our selves so completely that we believe we deserve to be loved, just because we exist. Then what is there to compete about?

Passionaria

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

Well, even though I have never felt anything but sweetness in your playing around with me Mr. Clark Kent, I have seen you be a bit biting around cyber town at times. I appreciate you saying this, it means a lot to me coming from a guyperson type like you. I guess some of the most hurtful things about lesbians I have encountered on these sites is when a butch or guytype person says "I would never date a lesbian." This makes me feel pretty much like shit. It's hard to read something like that without internalizing it.

I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me!

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by evolveme

What a great post, Boots.

And yes, we do cannibalize each other, don't we? All of us (not just Femmes), but in our quarters and what with Relational Aggression it can be so...nasty.

As it is socially acceptable, and even encouraged as a rite of passage, for masculine creatures to rough-it-out as a means to work-it-out, out-right aggressions are hardly frowned upon in the school yard. But girls are supposed to "be nice and look sweet."

So what do we do with our naturally arising feelings of aggression? (We are animals after all.) We have devised elaborate inter-social methods of torturing and ostracizing one another.

The cruel word spoken in clever jest. (plausible deniablity)

Unkind Gossips.

Out-casting. (a very fickle art)

And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

There are more.

We've all shanked a lady with a fine stiletto, whether we wear them or not.

I have experienced everything on the list.

I'd never had a b/f community before and was SHOCKED to say the least.

In the end I chose to not shut down, not participate and not disallow myself from further potential Femme friendships.

I am so glad that five years later I have forged some solid Femme friendships.

I don't feel that the syndrome of gossip, shunning, or the naming of the slut is entirely based in misogyny. I think it is first and foremost Fear based. So many of us have found a place where we belong after a lifetime of NOT belonging.

Some believe they have to *fight* for that place. Climb up a rung of some imagined Hierarchy. If someone comes along that threatens that they are taken out. We should be offering a hand and pulling other Femme's in and up not out. There really IS room for all of us at the table.

[Arwen]

Osting from the laundrymat where I'm doing my girly lacy things and no flannel or jeans of course.

Just read this in my email and thought it added to this thought.


"Your real security is yourself. You know you can do it, and they can't ever take that away from you."
-Mae West

That is what we do. We bring all of us butch and femme.

Forgive lack of pretty colors and font. Grin

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Passionaria

What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????

Maybe the real power is in loving our selves so completely that we believe we deserve to be loved, just because we exist. Then what is there to compete about?

Passionaria

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me!

I like the idea of this thread, bonney. Even if I don't want to date them either. I understand that for them it has to do with not being a woman and that this is the strict definition they have of lesbian, but I am not ready to give up Lesbian and I'm not sure I ever will be. I don't care if it's political for me and that gets on your nerves. It is also personal. It is my story, how I came into this queer life. I honor it.

Thank you and the end.

[SuperFemme]

How do We meet at a crossroads regarding the L word?

How do we make sure *not* to visit the sins of others upon the innocent without negating everyone's truth?

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

.

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

How do We meet at a crossroads regarding the L word?

How do we make sure *not* to visit the sins of others upon the innocent without negating everyone's truth?

Can you say more?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Can you say more?

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Hi Passionaria,


I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.

.

Hi Evolveme,
This is a great conversation.I think the chaos serves a purpose. It defuses power, it's been used as a tool for centuries. All of that existed before mass consumerism, although the competition does fuel capitalism wonderfully.

Christianity was the disconnect with the divine feminine. And that was about controlling the masses. We were born into sin, basically unworthy unless we follow XYZ,to redeem ourselves, presets determined by men in power, who mandated that women carry the sin of the world, the original sin. I think this is a huge factor in why we in this culture anyway believe we are not worthy of being loved.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

i'm so glad that this has been brought up, i feel so *protective* of the lesbian community, (whenever i hear it bashed) tho i really don't ID as lesbian, simply stated i've got more in common with *her* than not.

(lately--post prop 8--i'm thinking more about aligning ourselves, vs. our few 'differences')

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by bit

{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

i think you misunderstand my point. While it is true that i am always conscious of posting in a way that supports butches and transmen, and while i did have that epiphany about polite equalling caring--or not equalling it, as the case may be, lol--adele had asked if we, as femmes, enforce the male-centric viewpoint (or masculine-centric). That was my main point: Yes, indeed we do; it has happened to me in a very negative way that has silenced me.

butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

i'm sorry that i didn't make the point more effectively.

I don't want to leave you thinking that i'm backpedaling, or that i haven't said the things you quoted. It does seem to me, though, that you missed my emphasis and thought i was saying it was the butches who left me feeling this way when i was trying to say it was femmes who have had these judgmental interactions with me.

I suppose this is another area where i haven't been clear enough---after a while i start to feel like i'm beating the subject into the ground and so i do use shorthand references, my apologies--anyhow, when i posted the last one you quoted, about always being careful not to hit the hot buttons or use the trigger phrases, and being discouraged enough to just not post? That has come about because of the silencing. It didn't used to be that way for me. I've always been conscious about posting respectfully, not just about butches and transmen but about all of us, but i didn't used to feel so hopelessly discouraged.

And now i really do feel like i'm beating the subject into the ground. *wry smile* time for me to go offline; if i'm not back tomorrow i'll be back monday.

~ a-fucking-men ~
~ halle-fucking-lujah ~
~ and holla back ~
(as we trash-a-licious types here in the ghettoplex say)