It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[UofMfan]

Well I am sure the people of Kherson love having you there!!!!


:praying:

They did, while I was there. I am now in La Patagonia.

[AtLast]

Sucks huh?

I really really dislike Brewer.

What about all those wacka nuts who are donating money to defend the law...

Scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And what these waka nuts are doing/want to do to the US Constitution!! And hell, why not just change school curriculum and re-write history to reflect more WASP mentality... money pouring into these efforts, too.

This really does scare me! The ugly is growing....

[Linus]

There is something weird in Arizona, isn't there??

From HuffPost (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chad-campbell/a-top-10-list-of-the-absu_b_649290.html?view=print)

For the past 18 months, Arizona's economy has taken a nose dive, jobs have been lost, and schools have been starved of funding. Have the Republicans who control the state Legislature fixed these problems? No.

But they have kept themselves busy!

Here are 10 of the most outlandish things Arizona Legislative Republicans spent time and taxpayer resources on in the past year:


Invoked the U.S. Constitution in an attempt to protect (wait for it) ... light bulbs ... from federal energy requirements. (But only the bulbs made in Arizona, of course.)
Eliminated the requirement for training and a permit to carry a concealed weapon. (Driver's license tests are still around, in case anyone is concerned about public safety)
Passed legislation banning human-animal hybrids in Arizona. (Our state is now safe from mermaids and centaurs.)
Voted to deny more than 47,000 children access to KidsCare health insurance. (They're kids, they're young, they're plenty healthy, right?)
Allowed guns in bars. (Bar owners, for some strange reason, did not support this legislation)
Increased property taxes and asked voters to tax themselves, but refused to close tax loopholes for the rich. Their country club memberships, spa treatments and pet grooming are exempt from the sales tax. Middle-class folks buying clothes and school supplies, however, are subject to the tax. (Darling, we already tip the help ... isn't that enough for you people?)
Made it a crime for teachers to talk to students of color about their own history and heritage. (There's only one version of history -- duh!)
Based environmental policies on the belief that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, as cited by a state senator. (The Hohokam people apparently migrated to Arizona on the backs of dinosaurs.)
Cut off services to 36,500 seriously mentally ill patients, allowing those individuals to wander Arizona's communities homeless, untreated and unmedicated. (Shhh, just let the Democrats worry about this one.)
Jumped on the "birther" bandwagon, pushing legislation that would require presidential candidates to show proof of U.S. citizenship to be on the Arizona ballot. (Hey, don't call it a fringe movement -- we don't want to offend the Tea Party now do we?)

Arizona has seen 40 plus years of a Republican-controlled Legislature, but this absurd list is from only the past two years! And though my blog may sound a bit tongue-in-cheek about the ideas listed above, it is only because of the seriousness with which I view the impact these policies are having on my native state.

We can no longer afford political games and rhetoric aimed at diverting the attention away from the critical issues facing our state. Arizonans need to elect leaders who will get serious about fixing our budget, bringing jobs back, and making us competitive once again.

Democrats are outnumbered in Arizona, but we want everyone to know we're working hard to win key races in November and get our state back on track -- and off of The Daily Show.

[UofMfan]

And what these waka nuts are doing/want to do to the US Constitution!! And hell, why not just change school curriculum and re-write history to reflect more WASP mentality... money pouring into these efforts, too.

This really does scare me! The ugly is growing....

You mean like Texas just did?

There is something weird in Arizona, isn't there??

Must be the heat! :|

[Apocalipstic]

There is something weird in Arizona, isn't there??

The Governor says God told her to do these things.....I think she is hearing "voices", because the Flying Spaghetti Monster told me She has not spoken to any Arizona politicians lately.

:blink:

[AtLast]

The Governor says God told her to do these things.....I think she is hearing "voices", because the Flying Spaghetti Monster told me She has not spoken to any Arizona politicians lately.

:blink:

ARGH!!!

I am totally open to anyone's religious or spiritual beliefs, but.... this is so weird! Let alone coming from an elected official in a country that has a Constitution built on Separation of Church & State. I know, I know... there are are lot of zealots out there that just accept this nonsense as an excuse (justification??) for continued bigotry and oppression .

[AtLast]

You mean like Texas just did?



Must be the heat! :|

Yup.. like Texas. And it looks like that will not be the only state trying to this.

[Soon]

Man With Neo-Nazi Ties Leading Patrols In Arizona
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/17/man-with-neo-nazi-ties-le_n_650123.html?view=print)
PHOENIX — Minutemen groups, a surge in Border Patrol agents, and a tough new immigration law aren't enough for a reputed neo-Nazi who's now leading a militia in the Arizona desert.

Jason "J.T." Ready is taking matters into his own hands, declaring war on "narco-terrorists" and keeping an eye out for illegal immigrants. So far, he says his patrols have only found a few border crossers who were given water and handed over to the Border Patrol. Once, they also found a decaying body in a wash, and alerted authorities.

But local law enforcement are nervous given that Ready's group is heavily armed and identifies with the National Socialist Movement, an organization that believes only non-Jewish, white heterosexuals should be American citizens and that everyone who isn't white should leave the country "peacefully or by force."

"We're not going to sit around and wait for the government anymore," Ready said. "This is what our founding fathers did."

An escalation of civilian border watches have taken root in Arizona in recent years, including the Minutemen movement. Various groups patrol the desert on foot, horseback and in airplanes and report suspicious activity to the Border Patrol, and generally, they have not caused problems for law enforcement.

But Ready, a 37-year-old ex-Marine, is different. He and his friends are outfitted with military fatigues, body armor and gas masks, and carry assault rifles. Ready takes offense at the term "neo-Nazi," but admits he identifies with the National Socialist Movement.

"These are explicit Nazis," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project. "These are people who wear swastikas on their sleeves."

Ready is a reflection of the anger over illegal immigration in Arizona. Gov. Jan Brewer signed a controversial new immigration law in April, which requires police, while enforcing other laws, to question a person's immigration status if officers have a reasonable suspicion that the person is in the country illegally.

But Brewer hasn't done enough, Ready said, and he's not satisfied with President Barack Obama's decision to beef up security at the border.

Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu said there haven't been any incidents with the group as they patrol his jurisdiction, which includes several busy immigrant smuggling corridors. But Babeu is concerned because an untrained group acting without the authority of the law could cause "extreme problems," and put themselves and others in danger.

"I'm not inviting them. And in fact, I'd rather they not come," Babeu said. "Especially those who espouse hatred or bigotry such as his."

Law enforcement officials said patrols like Ready's could undercut the work of the thousands of officers on duty every day across the border, especially if they try to enforce the law themselves in carrying out vigilante justice.

Ready said his group has been patrolling in the desert about 50 miles south of Phoenix, in an area where a Pinal County Sheriff's deputy reported he was shot by drug smugglers in April.

Bureau of Land Management rangers met Ready's group during one patrol, and they weren't violating any laws or looking for a confrontation, said spokesman Dennis Godfrey.

The patrols have been occurring on public land, and militia members have no real restrictions on their weaponry because of Arizona's loose gun laws.

The militia is an outgrowth of border watch groups that have been part of the immigration debate in Arizona. Patrols in the Arizona desert by Minutemen organizations brought national attention to illegal immigration in 2004 and 2005.

Such groups continue to operate in Arizona, and law enforcement officials generally don't take issue with them as long as they don't take matters into their own hands.

Border Patrol spokesman Omar Candelaria said the agency appreciates the extra eyes and ears but they would prefer actual law enforcement be left to professionals.

Former Minutemen leader Al Garza recently created the Patriot's Coalition, which uses scouts and search-and-rescue teams to alert the Border Patrol and provide first aid to illegal immigrants.

Depending on the availability of volunteers and the scouts' evidence of border crossers, patrols can vary from several times a week to once a month, Garza said. The operation is about 500 people, and includes a neighborhood watch program, legislative advisers and a horseback patrol, he said.

Technology, rather than manpower, is the focus of Glenn Spencer's American Border Patrol. The group is based at his ranch near the border. The five-man operation flies three small airplanes to ensure that the Border Patrol is present and visible along the international line.

Spencer also uses Internet-controlled cameras and works with a group called Border Invasion Pics, which posts photos of people they suspect are crossing illegally.

"Sitting out there with a bunch of volunteers looking for people is generally a tremendous waste of people and time," Spencer said. "And it's also dangerous."

Ready said he's planning patrols throughout the summer.

"If they don't want my people out there, then there's an easy way to send us home: Secure the border," he said. "We'll put our guns back on the shelf, and that'll be the end of that."

[Toughy]

Hey folks.............

how about this..........

Lets focus on the GOOD.............former Ambassador to the UN and current Governor of New Mexico Bill Richardson and yes fuckwad Arnie and the Mexican State counterparts ARE having a meeting to talk about border security and economic issues.

Frankly I am soooooooooooooo beyond tired of talking about idiots and half-wits and their opinions..........

I just wish the 'news folks' would focus on the good things going on in terms of southern border relations instead of spending time on folks who are less than 20-30% of the population and all their racist ignorant bullshit.

It's only news when the media makes it news...change the news

[The_Lady_Snow]

Rage Against the Machine headlines SB 1070 protest concert


(http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/music/articles/2010/07/15/20100715rage-against-machine-sb-1070-protest-concert.html#comments)










http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/music/articles/2010/07/15/20100715rage-against-machine-sb-1070-protest-concert.html

[AtLast]

Hey folks.............

how about this..........

Lets focus on the GOOD.............former Ambassador to the UN and current Governor of New Mexico Bill Richardson and yes fuckwad Arnie and the Mexican State counterparts ARE having a meeting to talk about border security and economic issues.

Frankly I am soooooooooooooo beyond tired of talking about idiots and half-wits and their opinions..........

I just wish the 'news folks' would focus on the good things going on in terms of southern border relations instead of spending time on folks who are less than 20-30% of the population and all their racist ignorant bullshit.

It's only news when the media makes it news...change the news


Yup, there needs to be some positive direction here in the media. This meeting might include idiot Arnie, but, it is important. Also, it commenced without the AZ gov due to her being a loon!

Involving Mexican officials is a must and frankly, respectful of our neighbor to the south. I honestly don't see success without Mexico involved. And the fact is that many Mexican citizens live a very difficult life due to economic structures there and there is much internal strife going on in that country. Look at what is going on with elections there and people trying to find representation of their needs within their own country.

I also get sick of the media's skewed representaions of Mexico as nothing more than a country of drug lords and corruption! The people of Mexico are fighting to be heard and have a country in which they can work in and be educated and have a decent life. There are numerous resources in Mexico that have been stolen from its people... look at the tourist industry there! Who benefits from it in the long run?

[Soon]

Seven Latin American Nations Join Mexico In Arizona Immigration Lawsuit (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/20/seven-latin-american-nati_n_652440.html)


PHOENIX — Seven other Latin American countries want to join Mexico in supporting a lawsuit challenging Arizona's immigration enforcement law.

Bolivia, Colombia, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Paraguay and Peru filed separate, nearly identical motions to join Mexico's legal brief supporting the lawsuit filed by U.S. civil rights and other advocacy groups.

A federal judge formally accepted Mexico's filing July 1 but did not immediately rule on the latest motions filed late last week.

Mexico says the law would lead to racial profiling and hinder trade, tourism and the fight against drug trafficking.

The law is to take effect July 29. It requires that police conducting traffic stops or questioning people about possible legal violations ask them about their immigration status if there is "reasonable suspicion" that they're in the country illegally.

[AtLast]

Seven Latin American Nations Join Mexico In Arizona Immigration Lawsuit (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/20/seven-latin-american-nati_n_652440.html)


PHOENIX — Seven other Latin American countries want to join Mexico in supporting a lawsuit challenging Arizona's immigration enforcement law.

Bolivia, Colombia, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Paraguay and Peru filed separate, nearly identical motions to join Mexico's legal brief supporting the lawsuit filed by U.S. civil rights and other advocacy groups.

A federal judge formally accepted Mexico's filing July 1 but did not immediately rule on the latest motions filed late last week.

Mexico says the law would lead to racial profiling and hinder trade, tourism and the fight against drug trafficking.

The law is to take effect July 29. It requires that police conducting traffic stops or questioning people about possible legal violations ask them about their immigration status if there is "reasonable suspicion" that they're in the country illegally.

Does anyone have any info on any actions possibly being taken via law enforcement unions and this requirement of officers? It seems like earlier on, law enforcement heads in AZ were taking a look at this. Has there been any more going on? I know some police heads in AZ brought this up, but, I am not finding up to date info on this.

It just seems like police could refuse doing this certainly while the constitutionality is being questioned. And that their unions would be in a good position here to halt any actual action based upon this law at this time.

Any info is appreciated.

[The_Lady_Snow]

‎"I Am Mexican Pull Me Over" Is Organizing "One Million Hispanics March" On Saturday, September 18, 2010 in Washington, DC!!!! We Are Demanding Immigration Reform And Justice, Equality For Our Brothers And Sisters!! Will You Join Us In Solidarity And Demonstrate That This Is Our Time, This Is Our Fight? Stand Up Or Shut Up!!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Neo-Nazi Group Patrolling Arizona Border!! What a Load of Crap!! These ignorant racists are dangerously playing with fire!! This is our time, this is our fight!! Let us unite peacefully and fight this fight against division and ignorance!!



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/17/national/main6687832.shtml

[Soon]

Paul Dobson, Phoenix Cop Who Opposes Arizona Immigration Law, Is Now Under Investigation (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/23/paul-dobson-phoenix-cop-w_n_657429.html)



An Arizona police officer who spoke out against the state's new draconian immigration law is under investigation related to his statement, Officer Paul Dobson told the Huffington Post.

"I've been admonished not to talk about the investigation, so I can't talk about the investigation. They made it clear that it's related to the interview," he said. "That's public."

Officer Dobson responded to a request by the Brave New Films Foundation for officers to speak out against the law, SB 1070. Phoenix Police Chief Jack Harris spoke out in favor of the legislation, suggesting that Arizona policy considers only certain types of public opinions off-limits for officers.

Dobson said that his fellow officers have treated him with respect and that he is working while the investigation is ongoing, but subtle pressures are being applied. "My colleagues, face to face, are being very gracious. The majority of them disagree with me, but they've surprised me in how gracious they've been," he said. "Behind my back, it's a different story. A lot of hurtful things have been said."

Dobson spoke bluntly about the law. "I have a great deal of contempt for it. I'm very emotional about it," he said in the video. "This law will make me feel like a Nazi out there."

Here is the video:

[The_Lady_Snow]

One Voice, Just One, That Is All We Need!! Vamos Mi Raza - Ya Basta!!!





YouTube- TABOO - ONE HEART ONE BEAT
Music video for Taboo's new song 'One Heart, One Beat' opposing Arizona's Bill 1070 against illegal immigration. In the song you will hear Dolores Huerta, Eva Longoria, Oscar De La Hoya, Shakira & Juanes also in opposition to the bill. Produced & Directed by D Zapa Media, LLC. Contact 323-388-72...




xaCxTO3Z3vk

[SuperFemme]

According to CNN a judge just put a partial injunction on the AZ law.
Get out your pinatas and green cards folks. Party time. :canadian:
Blocking the part that requires officers to request immigration status from jailee's or suspects.
The most important part...yeah.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/


Judge Blocks AZ Immigration Law
PHOENIX (AP)


A judge has blocked the most controversial sections of Arizona's new immigration law from taking effect Thursday, handing a major legal victory to opponents of the crackdown.
The law will still take effect Thursday, but without many of the provisions that angered opponents, including sections that required officers to check a person's immigration status while enforcing other laws. The judge also put on hold a part of the law that required immigrants to carry their papers at all times, and made it illegal for undocumented workers to solicit employment in public places.
U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton put those controversial sections on hold until the courts resolve the issues.
Opponents say the law will lead to racial profiling and is trumped by federal immigration law.

[christie]

While this is certainly great news (and about time), I wasn't sure if anyone had seen this article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38442769

Seems that since 2007, the "Maricopa County Sheriff's Office was responsible for the deportations or forced departure of 26,146 immigrants."

That is 22.57% of the TOTAL number of deportations in the US during this time.

Wow. The population of our lil town in 2009 is estimated at 18,636. Just Wow. I don't mean to sound dismissive in any way - if anything, I am astounded that the deportation numbers (and perspective vs. our town's population) were so high. To me, that speaks of the article's statement of "officers from a single Arizona county helped deport more than 26,000 immigrants from the U.S. through a federal-local partnership program that has been roundly criticized as fraught with problems."

Fraught with problems? Ya think?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Information Is Power!! Main Provisions Of SB1070 Blocked!! This Is Our Time, This Is Our Fight!!! Arizona Police Officers Will Not Be Allowed In Crime Stops To Ask For Immigration Status Under Reasonable Suspicion!! Arizonans No Longer Will Have To Carry Proof Of Legal Papers!! Si Se Pudo!!!




http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-28/arizona-is-barred-from-enforcing-part-of-immigration-law-by-federal-judge.html

[SuperFemme]

I have an umbrella. :tanning:

[SuperFemme]

Information Is Power!! Main Provisions Of SB1070 Blocked!! This Is Our Time, This Is Our Fight!!! Arizona Police Officers Will Not Be Allowed In Crime Stops To Ask For Immigration Status Under Reasonable Suspicion!! Arizonans No Longer Will Have To Carry Proof Of Legal Papers!! Si Se Pudo!!!




http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-28/arizona-is-barred-from-enforcing-part-of-immigration-law-by-federal-judge.html





Word. The fight is not over yet....be diligent.

[UofMfan]

Arizona Immigration Law: Sections BLOCKED By Federal Judge

JACQUES BILLEAUD and AMANDA MYERS | 07/28/10 01:30 PM | AP

PHOENIX — A federal judge on Wednesday blocked the most controversial parts of Arizona's immigration law from taking effect, delivering a last-minute victory to opponents of the crackdown.

The overall law will still take effect Thursday, but without the provisions that angered opponents – including sections that required officers to check a person's immigration status while enforcing other laws.

The judge also put on hold parts of the law that required immigrants to carry their papers at all times, and made it illegal for undocumented workers to solicit employment in public places.

U.S. District Judge Susan Bolton ruled that those sections should be put on hold until the courts resolve the issues. Other provisions of the law, many of them procedural and slight revisions to existing Arizona immigraiton statute, will go into effect at 12:01 a.m.

The ruling came just as police were making last-minute preparations to begin enforcement of the law and protesters were planning large demonstrations to speak out against the measure. At least one group planned to block access to federal offices, daring officers to ask them about their immigration status.

The volume of the protests will likely be turned down a few notches because of the ruling by Bolton, a Clinton appointee who suddenly became a crucial figure in the immigration debate when she was assigned the seven lawsuits filed against the Arizona law.

Lawyers for the state contend the law was a constitutionally sound attempt by Arizona – the busiest illegal gateway into the country – to assist federal immigration agents and lessen border woes such as the heavy costs for educating, jailing and providing health care for illegal immigrants.

Opponents argued the law will lead to racial profiling, conflict with federal immigration law and distract local police from fighting more serious crimes. The U.S. Justice Department, civil rights groups and a Phoenix police officer had asked the judge for an injunction to prevent the law from being enforced.

"There is a substantial likelihood that officers will wrongfully arrest legal resident aliens under the new (law)," Bolton ruled. "By enforcing this statute, Arizona would impose a 'distinct, unusual and extraordinary' burden on legal resident aliens that only the federal government has the authority to impose."

The law was signed by Republican Gov. Jan Brewer in April and immediately revived the national debate on immigration, making it a hot-button issue in the midterm elections.

The law has inspired rallies in Arizona and elsewhere by advocates on both sides of the immigration debate. Some opponents have advocated a tourism boycott of Arizona.

It also led an unknown number of illegal immigrants to leave Arizona for other American states or their home countries.

Federal authorities who are trying to overturn the law have argued that letting the Arizona law stand would create a patchwork of immigration laws nationwide that would needlessly complicate the foreign relations of the United States. Federal lawyers said the law is disrupting U.S. relations with Mexico and other countries and would burden the agency that responds to immigration-status inquiries.

Brewer's lawyers said Arizona shouldn't have to suffer from America's broken immigration system when it has 15,000 police officers who can arrest illegal immigrants.

[Apocalipstic]

Great news!

I am especially glad because a delegation from TN is going out there to talk to that Governor about what TN should do about immigration. Maybe they will think again after this new ruling!

[AtLast]

Word. The fight is not over yet....be diligent.

Not over by any means- this law has brought anti-immigrant hate-crimes, especially toward those from Mexico right up front! It will continue to spread if we let it happen.



Mexican Immigrants Target of Racist Hate Crimes on Staten Island
In recent weeks there have been a series of attacks against Mexican immigrants on Staten Island, a borough of New York City. The police are currently investigating another possible hate crime that occurred around 5:00 p.m. on Friday night. News reports say that a 31-year-old Mexican man was walking home from playing soccer at a local park when he was attacked by five men yelling anti-Mexican slurs. This is the sixth bias attack on Staten Island since April.

There is something of a history of hate crimes against Mexican immigrants on Staten Island. In 2008, a man living in the Port Richmond area of Staten Island took out his racism-fueled anger by driving his truck into store fronts he believed were owned by Mexican immigrants.

This kind of violence directed toward a particular group can be attributed, at least in part, to the anti-Mexican and anti-immigrant rhetoric that is becoming more pervasive in the current political climate. Evidence of this hostile climate is as close as the nearest Google search. Type in the keyword “Mexicans” and get the suggested “Related search: I hate Mexicans.” Also, note the racist images that generated just on the search for “Mexicans.” This sort of rhetoric is not only created by those on the (supposed) lunatic fringe of society, but by some mainstream news media talking heads as well. This kind of hostile environment – in speech, in images – eventually leads to action that affects real human beings.

There are ways to stand up against this sort of violence and intolerance. The folks at Change.org have launched a website based on anti-racist actions, called Not in Our Town. The site is dedicated to empowering people to fight back against hate and intolerance in their communities. When attacks like these occur, revealing a dangerous atmosphere of hate, it’s up to everyone to denounce that hate and violence and work toward building a community that is safe for everybody.

http://www.racismreview.com/blog/

[lipstixgal]

Well after reading this thread I'm going to rethink my relocation plans someplace else!! I thought that Arizona could be a nice place to live but if they pass that law or passed it I just don't agree with stopping people who are brown or Mexican or whatever color, its a shame a real shame.

[The_Lady_Snow]

ylISvwxA8Vs

[SuperFemme]

watching police cuff and arrest peaceful protesters on CNN.
nice.

view live here:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=3

[Plato]

watching police cuff and arrest peaceful protesters on CNN.
nice.
view live here:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=3

I'm fairly certain the Nazi's started "cleansing" the same way.

[Nat]

Arizona appeals immigrant law ruling amid protests (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE66R45C20100730)

pinEAY5IYCQ

(Reuters) - Arizona on Thursday appealed a judge's decision to block key parts of the state's crackdown on illegal immigrants and police in Phoenix arrested scores of activists protesting the remaining measures in the law.

[AtLast]

I'm fairly certain the Nazi's started "cleansing" the same way.

You know, the most salient (and sickening) coverage I have ever watched about Nazi Germany and the mind-set of racism has to do with towns people being walked through the death camps after they were shut-down. Most all of them just said... we didn't know... Group-think racism at its finest! People being gased and burned within miles of where thay lived along with train loads of Jews (and others) on rails right in front of them... and they didn't know...

This is the part of what is going on that scares me the most.

[Nat]

Sarah "I'm not racist" Palin says Jan Brewer "has the cojones our President dies not have" regarding immigration.

iZXX7umHS2M

How many ways can she be offensive in one sentence?

[Andrea]

Opinion piece by Todd Landfried a spokesman for Arizona Employers for Immigration Reform

Click Here (http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/03/landfried.arizona.law.alternative/index.html?hpt=C2)

[AtLast]

Opinion piece by Todd Landfried a spokesman for Arizona Employers for Immigration Reform

Click Here (http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/08/03/landfried.arizona.law.alternative/index.html?hpt=C2)

This quote from this OP-ED certainly points out one hell of a point!

Was there no other approach to address immigration without undermining the state's economy or shredding our social fabric? Nobody had a better idea for balancing security with the draw and demand of American jobs? What about an offer to work with Congress? Was the only solution to blow up the place?

Obviously demonstrates that this did NOT stem from feeling the federal government isn't doing its job- it was simply an act of racism.

[Nat]

neat facebook group: Poets Responding to SB 1070 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Poets-Responding-to-SB-1070/117494558268757?v=wall)

[Soon]

xUPKKbmWMZ8&feature=player_embedded

[Jess]

xUPKKbmWMZ8&feature=player_embedded

Is she drunk here? I can't even watch the whole thing. May have been better to just send them her notes. She might have kept them in order that way instead of staring at her lap. What a freak...

[Nat]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/print/asection/index.html

The justice department is suing sheriff arpaio for refusing to turn over records concerning possible discrimination against Latinos

[lipstixgal]

I have now officially changed my relocation plans to Florida at least there no one stops you or at least I don't think so:blink::blink:

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-us-brewer-un-report,0,1667617.story


"
"Brewer condemns State Department for mentioning Arizona law in human rights report to UN"

[Nat]

QwwVcfc34WU

[Soon]

UeJHNboiMCA&feature=player_embedded#!

[Soon]

UeJHNboiMCA&feature=player_embedded#!

p.s. fact: at 1.33 you actually see her mouth the word *shit*.

[betenoire]

I wish one of the reporters had said "Answer the question, Claire!"

[SuperFemme]

Jan Brewer Admits She Was Wrong About Beheadings


PHOENIX — A claim by Arizona's governor that rising violence along the U.S.-Mexico border has led to headless bodies turning up in the desert came back to haunt her during a stammering debate performance in which she failed to back it up.

Gov. Jan Brewer, who gained national attention defending the state's tough new immigration law and warning of increasing border bloodshed, has spent the time since the gubernatorial candidates' debate earlier this week trying to repair the damage done from her cringe-worthy contest against underdog challenger Terry Goddard.

"That was an error, if I said that," the Republican told The Associated Press on Friday. "I misspoke, but you know, let me be clear, I am concerned about the border region because it continues to be reported in Mexico that there's a lot of violence going on and we don't want that going into Arizona."

She said she was referring to beheadings and other cartel-related violence in Mexico in comments she made earlier this summer about decapitated bodies found in the state's southern region.

Brewer's candidacy caught a big break in April, when she signed a controversial new state immigration law that put local police officers on the front lines of enforcing federal immigration law. At the time, Brewer's primary campaign faced serious challenges, but signing the bill cleared her path to what proved to be an easy primary win on Aug. 24.

Brewer stumbled through her opening statement of the debate Wednesday. She lost her train of thought for more than 10 painful seconds as she laughed, looked down at the table and finally regained her composure.
Goddard, who trailed by 20 points in a July poll, said he brought up the beheadings comments because Brewer hadn't acknowledged she was wrong.

"It's a kind of fear-mongering that has hurt our economy. It has driven jobs away," he said. "She wouldn't come off it."

Brewer apparently first referred to beheadings during a June 16 interview with Fox News, talking about "the kidnappings and the extortion and the beheadings and the fact that people can't feel safe in their community" in discussing controversy surrounding the immigration law.

She went further in a June 27 interview on Phoenix television station KPNX when asked about the earlier beheadings claim.

"Oh, our law enforcement agencies have found bodies in the desert, either buried or just lying out there, that have been beheaded," Brewer said.
A veteran Arizona political observer said her latest gaffes may not sway many voters but could put a charge into Goddard's campaign.

"I think it gave him an opening," said Bruce Merrill, a longtime pollster and retired Arizona State University journalism professor.

Goddard can now play the debate clips over and over as he attacks her competence to lead Arizona.

In fact, there have been beheadings in Mexico in violence associated with criminal cartels that include those active in cross-border smuggling.

And some violence has spilled over the border, including the March slaying of a southern Arizona rancher, Robert Krentz. Law enforcement officials have said they believe Krentz was killed by an illegal immigrant, likely a scout for drug smugglers.

But none of the southern Arizona coroners who handle immigrant cases have seen headless bodies.

Pima County's Dr. Eric Peters said some people might be confused when just skulls are sometimes found in the desert, but that's because of decomposition and animals that feed off bodies. He said it'd be clear if any one of those skulls had been severed from a body.

"You would find what we would call tool marks because you need to use some sort of tool to forcibly remove someone's head from the spine," he said. "You'd see saw marks," even on skulls that have long been in the desert.

A Republican legislator who was the prime sponsor of Arizona's immigration law said Brewer's critics were just playing games and ignoring the real issue – violence bleeding across the border into the United States.

"I can tell you there's been 300 to 500 beheadings and dismemberments along that border," state Sen. Russell Pearce said Thursday. "It is a national security concern, yet we're worried about this game-playing, this word-smithing."

(huffpolitics@huffingtonpost.com)

[Nat]

U.S. shifts approach to deporting illegal immigrants (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-09-10-immigration10_ST_N.htm)

To unclog courts, federal officials shift focus to illegal immigrants who've committed serious crimes

...........

The Obama administration is changing the federal immigration enforcement strategy in ways that reduce the threat of deportation for millions of illegal immigrants, even as states such as Arizona, Colorado, Virginia, Ohio and Texas are pushing to accelerate deportations.

Full Coverage: Immigration policy in the USA (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Events+and+Awards/In-depth+Coverage/Immigration+policy)

Among the recent changes:

• Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Director John Morton ordered agency officials on Aug. 20 to begin dismissing deportation cases against people who haven't committed serious crimes and have credible immigration applications pending.

• A proposed directive from Morton posted on ICE's website for public comment last month would generally prohibit police from using misdemeanor traffic stops to send people to ICE. Traffic stops have led to increased deportations in recent years, according to Jessica Vaughan, director of policy studies at the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank whose research supports tighter enforcement.

The directive said exceptions would be made in certain cases, such as when immigrants have serious criminal records.

• ICE officers have been told to "exercise discretion" when deciding whether to detain "long-time lawful permanent residents, juveniles, the immediate family members of U.S. citizens, veterans, members of the armed forces and their families, and others with illnesses or special circumstances," ICE executive associate director of management, Daniel Ragsdale, testified July 1 in the administration's lawsuit to block Arizona's controversial immigration law. The law requires police officers to determine the immigration status of suspects stopped for another offense if there was a "reasonable suspicion" they are in the USA illegally. A U.S. district judge has held up the provision pending review.

• A draft memo from ICE's sister agency, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS), to Morton discussed ways the administration could adjust regulations so certain groups, such as college students and the spouses of military personnel, could legalize their status or at least avoid deportation if Congress doesn't pass comprehensive immigration reform. USCIS rules on applications for visas, work permits and citizenship. USCIS spokesman Christopher Bentley said the memo was intended to stimulate brainstorming on how to legalize immigrants if new laws aren't passed.

The administration's new direction puts it at odds with those who believe the nation's immigration laws should be strictly enforced and that all illegal immigrants should be deported.

ICE is "thumbing its nose at the law," said Rep. Steve King of Iowa, the top Republican on the House immigration subcommittee.

The changes have also drawn complaints from immigration advocates. They say deportations under Obama are at record highs and immigrants who remain behind are living in limbo, without work permits, Social Security cards or driver's licenses.

"This isn't a free ticket," said Raed Gonzalez, a Houston attorney who saw cases against his clients dropped last month. "The government can put them back into proceedings at any time."

Morton said in an interview that the new strategy is smarter, not softer, enforcement. At a time when more than 10 million people are in the country illegally, record sums are spent on enforcement and the federal budget faces huge deficits, it makes sense to target people who pose the biggest threat to public safety or national security, he said.

"Congress provides enough money to deport a little less than 400,000 people," Morton said. "My perspective is those 400,000 people shouldn't be the first 400,000 people in the door but rather 400,000 people who reflect some considered government enforcement policy based on a rational set of objectives and priorities."

ICE statistics show that deportations have increased dramatically from 189,000 in 2001 to 387,000 in 2009. Much of the increase results from deportations of people who haven't committed serious crimes, according to TRAC.

This year, however, that trend took a sharp turn, according to an Aug. 12 TRAC report.

The number of criminal immigrants removed by ICE "climbed to an all-time high," the report said. In fiscal 2010, which began Oct. 1, "The removal pace of criminal aliens ... is fully 60% higher than in the last year of the Bush administration, and at least a third (37%) higher than in the first year of the Obama administration."

[The_Lady_Snow]

Pinal County sheriff blasts immigration billboard



http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/09/23/20100923pinal-county-oracle-immigration-billboard-abrk.html


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bf26KGVEt0s/TJqCGUcfSKI/AAAAAAAAAqc/GGQul1w6Kkc/s400/oracle_billboard.jpg

[The_Lady_Snow]

Colbert storms Capitol Hill for migrant workers



http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/09/24/colbert.house.immigration/index.html?hpt=T2

[Nat]

Jan Brewer still has a job :(

but Raul Grijalva looks to keep his job too. :)

Arizona election results (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2010/results/state/#val=AZ)

Raul Grijalva has guts and I hope he keeps his lead when all votes are counted.

lsL6GLZaHjU

aSVpZrCzHW8

0hoZSzq6Yjs

U.S. Representative Raul Grijalva (D-AZ) talks about Immigration Reform and Indigenous people's rights. Also about the need to recognize the presence and the rights of the Spanish-speaking Native peoples living in the U.S. as undocumented immigrants, and the racist attacks of Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Arizona who is supported by DHS Janet Napolitano:

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"Desperation is a horrible devil."

- Raul Grijalva

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[MsDemeanor]

Good for Raul!! I hope that he keeps up the good fight.

[AtLast]

Have to post about this.

Got an email today from my oldest grand daughter who will turn 18 in July. her Mom brought home a voter registration card for her to keep on her dresser until she can fill it out and send it in plus booklets about voting rights, etc.

Haley says she is really excited to be able to vote soon so that she can help get rid of "people like that AZ govenor that hates immigrants. Great Grandpa was an immigrant!"

You GO, Haley!!!

[KatieStar]

Have to post about this.

Got an email today from my oldest grand daughter who will turn 18 in July. her Mom brought home a voter registration card for her to keep on her dresser until she can fill it out and send it in plus booklets about voting rights, etc.

Haley says she is really excited to be able to vote soon so that she can help get rid of "people like that AZ govenor that hates immigrants. Great Grandpa was an immigrant!"

You GO, Haley!!!

This made me smile! Thank you for sharing this! :)

[Nat]

Study: Latinos abandoning Arizona (http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_16591373#ixzz154sCVrlW)

MEXICO CITY — A new study suggests there may be 100,000 fewer Latinos in Arizona than there were before the debate over the state's tough new immigration law earlier this year.BBVA Bancomer Research, which did the study, worked with figures from the U.S. Current Population Survey. The study says the decline could be due to a new law that would allow police to question the immigration status of those they suspect are in the country illegally, which partly took effect in July. It may also be due to Arizona's difficult economic situation.

The study also cites Mexican government figures as saying 23,380 Mexicans returned from Arizona to Mexico between June and September.

U.S. census figures from 2008 say about 30 percent of people living in Arizona are Latino, or about 1.9 million.

[Nat]

Panelists: Arizona SB 1070 has had profound impact on Native Americans (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov10/NativeAmerPanel.html)

since the bill became law, racism has become legitimized, and violence against Native peoples "is more blatant than ever." Recently, "tribal members out in the desert chopping wood have been handcuffed and beaten because they didn't have any identification on them," he said. Although the people were on their tribal land, he noted, "somehow the border patrol saw this as a legitimate way to detain people and abuse people violently."

[AtLast]

Panelists: Arizona SB 1070 has had profound impact on Native Americans (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov10/NativeAmerPanel.html)

since the bill became law, racism has become legitimized, and violence against Native peoples "is more blatant than ever." Recently, "tribal members out in the desert chopping wood have been handcuffed and beaten because they didn't have any identification on them," he said. Although the people were on their tribal land, he noted, "somehow the border patrol saw this as a legitimate way to detain people and abuse people violently."

Makes me sick to my stomach. Thia has to be stopped. These are NATIVE Americans!

[asphaltcowboi]

Panelists: Arizona SB 1070 has had profound impact on Native Americans (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov10/NativeAmerPanel.html)

since the bill became law, racism has become legitimized, and violence against Native peoples "is more blatant than ever." Recently, "tribal members out in the desert chopping wood have been handcuffed and beaten because they didn't have any identification on them," he said. Although the people were on their tribal land, he noted, "somehow the border patrol saw this as a legitimate way to detain people and abuse people violently."

is this happening here in az? i live here and watch the news daily.. ive heard of no such thing. i also have many native american friends that well most of them like the seperation of themselfs not being clumped in. i dont care for the law much but there are alot of untruths flying around about it.

[AtLast]

is this happening here in az? i live here and watch the news daily.. ive heard of no such thing. i also have many native american friends that well most of them like the seperation of themselfs not being clumped in. i dont care for the law much but there are alot of untruths flying around about it.

The article is by Native American spokespeople and stems from a panel of Native Americans as part of a discussion among Native activist leaders. It isn't from a news broadcast depicting one specific news event.

Now, I do remember that Gov. Brewer did take back her initial statements about headless bodies in the desert due to criminal Latino immigrants a couple of months back. That seemed to be a rumor and entirely false. Good she cleared that up.

[asphaltcowboi]

The article is by Native American spokespeople and stems from a panel of Native Americans as part of a discussion among Native activist leaders. It isn't from a news broadcast depicting one specific news event.

Now, I do remember that Gov. Brewer did take back her initial statements about headless bodies in the desert due to criminal Latino immigrants a couple of months back. That seemed to be a rumor and entirely false. Good she cleared that up.
yes it is good she cleared that up and im thinking the squeeky wheel is the one thats gets heard an that wheel is only a part of a group of wheels.

[Nat]

From the Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/17581892)

After SB1070
Adios Arizona

Lots of people are leaving

Nov 25th 2010

ARIZONA has changed a lot since April, when the state passed a tough new law against illegal immigrants. Known as SB1070, and controversial both because it could lead to discrimination against Latinos and because it usurps a federal prerogative, the law has not fully taken effect, and perhaps never will. A federal judge suspended parts of SB1070 in July, and it is now in an appeals court in San Francisco. But life has changed nonetheless.

In downtown Phoenix, usually a tidy and dull place, neo-Nazi supporters of the law recently confronted pro-immigrant demonstrators, and police had to spray tear gas. There are fewer concerts in the state because hundreds of singers and bands have joined in a boycott, called “The Sound Strike”. Business is also down sharply in the state’s convention industry. The Centre for American Progress, a think-tank based in Washington, DC, reckons Arizona has lost $217m in spending by conference visitors and $388m in economic output from cancellations and booking declines in this and the next two years.

Of course the law has had the biggest effect on immigrants, both legal and illegal, and Latinos generally. Researchers at BBVA Bancomer, a Mexican bank, this month estimated that 100,000 Hispanics, mostly of Mexican descent, have already left Arizona, for Mexico or for other states, because of SB1070. This means a lot of upheaval for families and individuals, and for Arizona’s economy. Ethnic Mexicans, whether native or immigrant, are younger on average than Anglos, reducing the average age of greying Arizona’s population. And immigrants pay more in taxes than they send to Mexico in remittances. Above all, they tend to have jobs—on construction sites, in hotels and homes—that do not replace but complement American jobs, according to BBVA Bancomer. A permanent decline in the immigrant population could thus destroy many more jobs than just those of the immigrants.

But Arizonans seem to regard these costs as acceptable, given that most of them continue to support SB1070. This month they re-elected Jan Brewer, the Republican governor who signed the law and was known for little else. Russell Pearce, the author of SB1070, has been chosen as the next president of the state Senate. He wants to follow up with more in the same vein.

[asphaltcowboi]

gawd i dont like this thread... az is my home and i love it.. i dont always like what the gov. does here.. but there is so much more to this state that i will not boycot.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this..

[The_Lady_Snow]

gawd i dont like this thread... az is my home and i love it.. i dont always like what the gov. does here.. but there is so much more to this state that i will not boycot.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this..

Hey Cody, I am a bit confused about your statement. Do you feel the things we posted are untruths?

[asphaltcowboi]

Hey Cody, I am a bit confused about your statement. Do you feel the things we posted are untruths?

no i think some of the media has cause some untruths to be stated and repeated as truth..

[The_Lady_Snow]

no i think some of the media has cause some untruths to be stated and repeated as truth..


Really cause your Governor was very clear about what she was lying about. Do you mean her lies about mexicans and how we are running around cutting heads off and leaving them in Arizona deserts?

Or this lie?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bf26KGVEt0s/TJqCGUcfSKI/AAAAAAAAAqc/GGQul1w6Kkc/s400/oracle_billboard.jpg


I am trying to understand what you mean by untruths. Or are you saying your government in that state is full of lying, hateful, racist jerks.

Thank you for the dialogue

[Julie]

Really cause your Governor was very clear about what she was lying about. Do you mean her lies about mexicans and how we are running around cutting heads off and leaving them in Arizona deserts?

Or this lie?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bf26KGVEt0s/TJqCGUcfSKI/AAAAAAAAAqc/GGQul1w6Kkc/s400/oracle_billboard.jpg


I am trying to understand what you mean by untruths. Or are you saying your government in that state is full of lying, hateful, racist jerks.

Thank you for the dialogue



Propaganda... 2010 Propaganda (above )
Propaganda---1930's Propaganda

http://www.msu.edu/~wandless/eternaljewlposter.jpg

I am pretty blown away that this billboard which Snow post, is legal. I am shocked. I read the article, and I am really hoping what I have read is true about the decline of tourism, etc in Arizona - that Arizona is losing money. I hope and I am sorry Cody - that Arizona collapses.

P.S.... Propaganda Kills... Just ask the survivors of any country who have experienced Racial Cleansing. Remember Rwanda?

[asphaltcowboi]

Really cause your Governor was very clear about what she was lying about. Do you mean her lies about mexicans and how we are running around cutting heads off and leaving them in Arizona deserts?

Or this lie?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_bf26KGVEt0s/TJqCGUcfSKI/AAAAAAAAAqc/GGQul1w6Kkc/s400/oracle_billboard.jpg



I am trying to understand what you mean by untruths. Or are you saying your government in that state is full of lying, hateful, racist jerks.



Thank you for the dialogue




yes our government here is messed up.. lack of eductation yes.. i am saying alot of the stories have been blown way out of perportion then discribed in the media as such.. and yes there are many horiable truths also..
az is not as bad as alot precieve it to be and alot of the same things happen in the other "boarder states" .. not just az..
i am not a hater by anymeans.. but if you want to come to the states from canada,russia mexico or anywhere else please take the legal steps to do so..
i am aware its difficult for latinos here when they are pulled over out of random because they have the "look" at the same time i feel we need to get a grip on the influx of people blue eyed or brown eyed that come here esp. to suthern az. we are already a "broke" state and have no way to tax illeagles for servces rendered .. medical.. housing..ect..
as a whole this is an awsome state there would be no reason for the words boycot az if so many people didnt love it here and want to live here. its is painful when i see the words boycot az. yes we need help with many issues as do may states.

[The_Lady_Snow]

yes our government here is messed up.. lack of eductation yes.. i am saying alot of the stories have been blown way out of perportion then discribed in the media as such.. and yes there are many horiable truths also..
az is not as bad as alot precieve it to be and alot of the same things happen in the other "boarder states" .. not just az..
i am not a hater by anymeans.. but if you want to come to the states from canada,russia mexico or anywhere else please take the legal steps to do so..
i am aware its difficult for latinos here when they are pulled over out of random because they have the "look" at the same time i feel we need to get a grip on the influx of people blue eyed or brown eyed that come here esp. to suthern az. we are already a "broke" state and have no way to tax illeagles for servces rendered .. medical.. housing..ect..
as a whole this is an awsome state there would be no reason for the words boycot az if so many people didnt love it here and want to live here. its is painful when i see the words boycot az. yes we need help with many issues as do may states.


Do you realize the Governor of your state tried to pass a law that started racial profiling??

Have you really read the whole thread?

Do you think your state is broke cause of all the undocumented (not illegal) people in it? Could it be cause we had W as a president for 8 years???

Do you really think they are gonna pull you over and ask for verification of your race? What is the look??

Cause lemme tell you Cody Az is full of "that look" you have Native Americans, Chicanos who have been there longer than most of the white people there who will be harrased and tagged as having "that look" and they will be pulled over WAYYYYYYYYYYY before a Canadian, Chinese, or Russian undocumented worker.

I am gonna be honest I am a tiny bit offended by your term "that look" what does that mean?

What "look" does one have when one is of Latino Heritage?

Your Governor is a racist pig who tried to pass a law that would of made racial profiling legal.

If you can't see how gross that is then that is because your white skin allows you to have the safety of having that never happen.

[Queerasfck]

i am aware its difficult for latinos here when they are pulled over out of random because they have the "look" at the same time i feel we need to get a grip on the influx of people blue eyed or brown eyed that come here esp. to suthern az. we are already a "broke" state and have no way to tax illeagles for servces rendered .. medical.. housing..ect..
as a whole this is an awsome state there would be no reason for the words boycot az if so many people didnt love it here and want to live here. its is painful when i see the words boycot az. yes we need help with many issues as do may states.

Interesting that you use the word difficult to describe getting pulled over. Wouldn't you say that difficult is a huge understatement?? If you got pulled over by the police because you had blue eyes would you say that's difficult?? I wouldn't. I'd say that's racial profiling. I am at a loss every time I read some of the things in this thread.

I've lived in Arizona so I saw how it was.

[asphaltcowboi]

Do you realize the Governor of your state tried to pass a law that started racial profiling??

Have you really read the whole thread?

Do you think your state is broke cause of all the undocumented (not illegal) people in it? Could it be cause we had W as a president for 8 years???

Do you really think they are gonna pull you over and ask for verification of your race? What is the look??

Cause lemme tell you Cody Az is full of "that look" you have Native Americans, Chicanos who have been there longer than most of the white people there who will be harrased and tagged as having "that look" and they will be pulled over WAYYYYYYYYYYY before a Canadian, Chinese, or Russian undocumented worker.

I am gonna be honest I am a tiny bit offended by your term "that look" what does that mean?

What "look" does one have when one is of Latino Heritage?

Your Governor is a racist pig who tried to pass a law that would of made racial profiling legal.

If you can't see how gross that is then that is because your white skin allows you to have the safety of having that never happen.

i know all this first hand... and all i can say is "think" and "say" what you will i love my state and always will...
i will never be able to get my point across az is beautiful an i will not take other opinoins as personal but treat them as i do our local government.. shrug my shoulder and walk out wishing there werent so many haters in the world.

[Julie]

I conducted a number of years ago tolerance workshops for Jews. Surprising to me, because a number of these Jews survived the Holocaust. Some showed me their numbers tatoo'd on their arms. The room was filled with Racists.

As a Jew it gave me permission to speak to them differently. I reminded them, that in this country they were safe for the most part. They were European Jews, many with blonde hair and blue eyes - many with black afros and brown eyes. Yet, clearly white european. Interestingly enough - They took offense at being called white. I understand this, I take offense, even though I am white of skin - Genetically I am not, as most Jew are not.

We discussed what it was like to watch their villages burned. We discussed what it it like for a POC in this country to watch their family and friends being beaten down and yes, even 10 years ago racially profiled.

I pass with my fair skin and green eyes. I have been around hateful people in social settings. I have been spoken to, as if I would understand... "Hitler had it right when he gassed them." I have heard worse. Because I pass. Sometimes, I am tired of passing for a non-jew - even though, I am ashamed and often embarrassed by my people and their ignorance.

Ignorance and Propaganda does indeed kill. Everyday in the world, people are still experiencing Ethnic Cleansing. I hear about this daily through my work. I get emails begging for help. I cannot help these people. There is nothing I can do. Except pray for them. Hope the work I do changes our future adults.

What's happening in Arizona is no different than what happened in the Ghetto's. It starts with Propaganda and a government which supports Racial Profiling. Do not think for a moment it cannot happen again. Do not think for a moment, we in this country will not do this.

LOOK AT WHAT WE DID in Afghanistan to the prisoners of war.

I will always go back to this. WE are better than THAT!

We are BETTER THAN THAT!
Aren't we?

[The_Lady_Snow]

i know all this first hand... and all i can say is "think" and "say" what you will i love my state and always will...
i will never be able to get my point across az is beautiful an i will not take other opinoins as personal but treat them as i do our local government.. shrug my shoulder and walk out wishing there werent so many haters in the world.


You can accuse me of being a hater all you want. It's fact, the people that were elected to run your beautiful racist state are and would pass racial profiling laws if you let them. A LOT of people (whites) backed this decision because "people with that look" were taking over their jobs, their women, their lands blah blah blah.

No one is telling you not to love the racist state you live in, you can love it and support it all you want, as I said your white skin gives you that security and freedom to do so. What I will never grasp is how a queer a part of the minority can shrug their shoulder off to the racial bullshit in the very place they live...

[Nat]

N7h-14bBXNk

[The_Lady_Snow]

I would still like to know what a member of my online community considers to be "that look"

Cause I bet it has nothing to do with sunshine and lollipops or anything positive.

[Julie]

I just need to say...
Sometimes I am so disappointed in the members of my community. This community (not only online).

We as LGBTQ know what it feels like to be hated. Just because I am a passing femme - god, sometimes I wish I was not. I have and my children have felt the hate from society. We as a community know what it feels like to be treated less than human.

There are still SODOMY Laws in this country.

Have we not learned from our own personal struggles? Each and every one of us, what it feels like to be hated based on who we are? You do not need to be a POC or a different religion to experience hatred. Go inside of yourself and feel it. Just feel what it feels like and maybe, you will get a glimpse of what it feels like for those who experience Racial Profiling. A glimpse really - because what we experience, is a fraction.

This is why I stopped posting on political threads. Why I like to be the bimbo in the other threads. Because I don't have to think. I don't have to feel what it feels like. It feels dirty and it feels like my barest soul is being exposed, yet again to ignorance and the ignorance is coming from MY COMMUNITY.

I am disgusted.

[Julie]

gawd i dont like this thread... az is my home and i love it.. i dont always like what the gov. does here.. but there is so much more to this state that i will not boycot.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this..

And another thing.
Too bad you don't like this thread - while you sit in your air conditioned home on your computer - You don't like this thread.

Well... People don't like being bludgeoned and forced to pull their babies out of school and told to leave the safety of their homes. Where will they go? Perhaps they will live in cars or on the streets. They will be exposed to the elements and dark of the night. The bad people.

So, you continue hating this thread, while there are people forced to expel Arizona and become one of the forgotten.

I am done!

[asphaltcowboi]

i am a member on this comunity like it or not. and even though im lt brn hair blue eyed i am 1/2 native american.. i live in az and i love it.. i vote to try to change things im not comfertable with.. i do not bash others states or there people.
as far as "the look" i mean the beautiful hispanic and native americans that make up this state.. yes its tuff because the "look" is like alot of the illeagles here. if there was some other way to identfy im sure it would be used.
i was not acusing any one person of being a hater sorry if anyone took it that way... i was only stating i wish it didnt exist.
an excuse us for being to broke to suport all comers

[The_Lady_Snow]

i am a member on this comunity like it or not. and even though im brn hrd blue eyes i an 1/2 native american.. i live in az and i love it.. i vote to try to change things im not comfertable with.. i do not bash others states or there people.
as far as "the look" i mean the beautiful hispanic and native americans that make up this state.. yes its hard because the "look" like alot of the illeagles here. if there was some other way to identfy im sure it would be used.
i was not acusing any one person of being a hater sorry if anyone took it that way... i was only stating i wish it didnt exist.


I don't even know what to say about your statements that are so filled with underlined racist issues.

WE ARE NOT ILLEGALS.. UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS.

How the hell would you suggest you differentiate between a native Latino or one who just got there yesterday?

No one is a hater who has decided to boycott your racist state, what we are is attempting to let your dislike for this kind of gross profiling be shown. Just remember these same people who don't want us here are the same people who don't like ANY KIND of queer.

I still think it bo be gross how you describe my people by saying "that look"

[asphaltcowboi]

And another thing.
Too bad you don't like this thread - while you sit in your air conditioned home on your computer - You don't like this thread.

Well... People don't like being bludgeoned and forced to pull their babies out of school and told to leave the safety of their homes. Where will they go? Perhaps they will live in cars or on the streets. They will be exposed to the elements and dark of the night. The bad people.

So, you continue hating this thread, while there are people forced to expel Arizona and become one of the forgotten.

I am done!

i dont like this thread because i do take it personal.. and everytime i post in here i am bashed because i live here and i love my home and my state.. i do wonder how other states would handle the exact problem we have.. so i come in here to read.. but i no longer will post in here either..

[The_Lady_Snow]

i dont like this thread because i do take it personal.. and everytime i post in here i am bashed because i live here and i love me home and my state.. i do wonder how other states would handle the exact problem we have.. so i come in here to read.. but i no longer will post in here either..


No one is bashing you Cody, you came to a thread that was started to discuss the bullshit that was going on at the time politically.

First they pass the Birther legislation. Now, Governor Brewer just signed SB 1070, the "Papers Please" law. Now any brown person in AZ can be stopped at any time by any cop and forced to prove that they are in the country legally. State officials claim that they won't profile, but I'm seriously doubting that the police are going to go around asking white folks to produce papers.

Polls show that 70% of residents support SB1070.

What has happened what is happening is fact, if Ohio did the same thing I would be just as adamant about not giving them my money.

I will NOT support anything that treats humans worse than animals and THAT is what your State's Government did, they painted a big ol' target on anyone who has what you call

"that look"

[Sparkle]

i dont like this thread because i do take it personal.. and everytime i post in here i am bashed because i live here and i love my home and my state.. i do wonder how other states would handle the exact problem we have.. so i come in here to read.. but i no longer will post in here either..

to borrow a phrase:
the personal IS political.

You *do* live in a physically beautiful state which is full of good people AND racist politicians and politics.

There are undocumented immigrants living in every state in this country, doing jobs that millions of unemployed "legal" citizens have no interest in, trying to build a life that is safe for themselves and their families.

Undocumented immigrants do NOT receive free housing. They do NOT receive free medical care. They are NOT taking jobs other people want. They are NOT negatively impacting the state of our public education systems. These are myths, very dangerous myths that allow people, like your state's politicians to pass very dangerous legislation with truly dire consequences - not just for anyone who looks non-white in Arizona, but for all non-white people in this country AND more broadly for our society as a whole.

This country IS a giant mess: economically, socially and politically - and none of the blame for that mess can be laid at the feet of immigrants (documented or undocumented); regardless of how convenient a scape goat they may be.

Arizona is a state I would love to explore, as a tourist; it is indeed full of natural beauty.
However, I will not be spending my dollars there while this legislation continues to exist.
I will feel the same way about Florida or Texas or any other state that tries to/and or successfully implements laws that are hateful, racist and create enormous divisions among us.

It is important, to me, that I am an educated voter, active politically and a conscious consumer.

Arizona citizens with the right to vote can help to reverse these horrible laws; I hope they do.

[weatherboi]

i think it sucks that most often times when a conversation like this goes down because a person decides they want to impression upon a community some kind of ism that works for them, and they go into defensive mode and conveinently pull out their native american status. i for one find it offensive and a form of deflection that enables them to be less accountable for their ist and ism views.

however beautiful Arizona may be, i commend our community members for packing up their chuck wagons and leaving the bullshit behind. it had to be a strategically rough decision and i for one feel lots of admiration for their actions to get the hell out of a state that racially profiles their citizens and their tourist visitors!!!

ohhhh and Arizona has always been a racist state...in 1991 the governor there decided to no longer recognize martin luther king day. i think his name was Mecham!!! ohhh and russell pearce i think is his name, an Arizona law maker that supports the white supremacy group National Alliance. i think they cosponsored and helped write the bill.

Public Enemy did a song about it back in the 90's...i heard the first time when i went to see them in atlanta.

zrFOb_f7ubw

[katsarecool]

Dear Cody, I truly understand the love you have for your state. I kind of compare it to the love I have of my family; though there are some in the family who are homophobic, racist and lack compassion for others. They make me angry. They make me sad. They embarrass me. I still love them but I resent when someone points out to me the fact that some people in my family are severly flawed. I just try to work on them telling them about their offensive behavior and hope they will change.

So hang in there. Try to make changes in the voting booth and continue to be supportive of your friends who are POC!!!

[Kobi]

to borrow a phrase:
the personal IS political.

You *do* live in a physically beautiful state which is full of good people AND racist politicians and politics.

There are undocumented immigrants living in every state in this country, doing jobs that millions of unemployed "legal" citizens have no interest in, trying to build a life that is safe for themselves and their families.

Undocumented immigrants do NOT receive free housing. They do NOT receive free medical care. They are NOT taking jobs other people want. They are NOT negatively impacting the state of our public education systems. These are myths, very dangerous myths that allow people, like your state's politicians to pass very dangerous legislation with truly dire consequences - not just for anyone who looks non-white in Arizona, but for all non-white people in this country AND more broadly for our society as a whole.

This country IS a giant mess: economically, socially and politically - and none of the blame for that mess can be laid at the feet of immigrants (documented or undocumented); regardless of how convenient a scape goat they may be.

Arizona is a state I would love to explore, as a tourist; it is indeed full of natural beauty.
However, I will not be spending my dollars there while this legislation continues to exist.
I will feel the same way about Florida or Texas or any other state that tries to/and or successfully implements laws that are hateful, racist and create enormous divisions among us.

It is important, to me, that I am an educated voter, active politically and a conscious consumer.

Arizona citizens with the right to vote can help to reverse these horrible laws; I hope they do.

Sparkle,

We both live in Mass, and I'd venture to say we are both educated voters and consumers.

One thing that always amazes me in any argument, is that the word MYTH is used by all sides. Myth and Truth both contain elements of accuracy depending on which side of the fence you are on, and which side of a cause you are on.

Being we are both from Mass, I will use your "myth that undocumented persons are not given free housing or health care". Obamas Aunt. See article here....http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100921/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_s_aunt

Fact or myth? She says we gave her housing and health care when she was supposed to be deported. Think the taxpayers footed the bill for this or do you think Kenya did?

All it takes is one story of truth, directly from one person, to make a "myth" not a "myth".

And, as an educated voter and consumer, do you check the laws of every state you do business with? Mass still has a few not well known laws on the books that could be seen a detrimental to one group or another. Does this mean you dont spend money in your home state?

My point is simply, this is a complex issue that people are most comfortable making a simple issue. And it is very easy to poke holes in "holier than thou attitudes" simply because, people being people, provide the very ammunition needed to do so.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Which leads me to wonder if ALL of the other *white* Presidents were ever investigated as much as our Black President.

I don't believe W was ever asked for his papers, or proof of birth cerficicate.

Racial profiling became a top priority once our President was black, it just got worse.

:2cents:

[Nat]

I live in Texas and would have mixed feelings about a thread aimed at boycotting Texas because I do love my state. But sometimes being on the side of justice is to be at odds with the government and the majority of citizens within one's home state. Texas has passed some terrible laws and is capable of passing a law very similar to this one. Despite my love love love of my state, I would support any measure that would bring a greater level of justice to my home. To me that means staying and fighting injustice as long as my life and livelihood are not at severe risk. I cannot defend Texas when it comes to state-sanctioned racism, xenophobia, religious intolerance, homophobic and transphobic intolerance, the death penalty, the arrest of the homeless, the criminalization of poverty, the lack of services for the mentally ill, the state of the prison system, the revisionist and propaganda-filled history taught in our public schools, the fundamentalist religious beliefs that embrace intolerance, bigotry and violence. I love my state and would be sensitive to a thread criticizing Texas or threatening the economic well-being of this state, but I hold justice as a higher value than state pride. Many people have chosen to leave Arizona rather than be faced with the very real dangers of continuing to live there, but I would encourage anybody who feels privileged enough to stay in the state to really work their hardest toward making it a just, compassionate, neighborly place to live and/or visit rather than putting one's effort into defending the truly indefensible actions of arizona's racist policies.

It's the people who stay who have the most power to use their power as voters, as citizens and as consumers to make Arizona (or any other home state) a place of justice, equality and neighborliness.

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."

-James Baldwin

[QueenofSmirks]

I, too, live in Arizona. However, even though yes, I can read, I haven't lived here long enough to have an opinion about local politics.. yet. I refuse to gain all of my "knowledge" from reading articles and other peoples' opinions.

However, I do think Cody is and has been bashed for his opinions. And I do think much of what he has said has been taken out of context and pounced upon.

Someone stated that they wanted to see Arizona collapse. Really? So, all the people who voted against the current government should go down in flames too? Unbelievable.

[Nat]

I want Arizona to feel the full economic effects of choosing racial injustice and intolerance and I hope the effects are palpable and that their cause is clearly discernible.

I feel the same way about Texas. That's the only way a capitalist democracy can move toward justice when the majority of the state votes for a xenophobic and racist government.

When people vote to support racist government in order to have more for themselves. That is truly selfish. And for people who fought against these laws, I hope they continue to fight for justice. Sometimes justice means acknowledging that you yourself do not deserve the biggest cut of meat. Sometimes justice means giving up privilege and learning to share. It means advocating for equality even if doing so means you yourself have to give up some privilege.

[MsDemeanor]

wishing there werent so many haters in the world.
Yeah, me too. If there were less haters then Brewer couldn't get enough votes to win re-election and this terrible law would never have passed.

Brewer's scum for more than just 1070, though. Local reporters have been investigating her and her office's connections to private prison firms. It seems that her administration is deeply connected with those firms. Not only are they working to privatize all of the prisons, they were connected to the writing of 1070, which gives them more business in the private prisons they already have in the state. Bottom line - 1070 is all about putting money in Brewer's cronies pockets. Typical republican crap - money matters and screw everything and everyone else.

[Sparkle]

Sparkle,

We both live in Mass, and I'd venture to say we are both educated voters and consumers.

One thing that always amazes me in any argument, is that the word MYTH is used by all sides. Myth and Truth both contain elements of accuracy depending on which side of the fence you are on, and which side of a cause you are on.

Being we are both from Mass, I will use your "myth that undocumented persons are not given free housing or health care". Obamas Aunt. See article here....http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100921/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_s_aunt

Fact or myth? She says we gave her housing and health care when she was supposed to be deported. Think the taxpayers footed the bill for this or do you think Kenya did?

All it takes is one story of truth, directly from one person, to make a "myth" not a "myth".

And, as an educated voter and consumer, do you check the laws of every state you do business with? Mass still has a few not well known laws on the books that could be seen a detrimental to one group or another. Does this mean you dont spend money in your home state?

My point is simply, this is a complex issue that people are most comfortable making a simple issue. And it is very easy to poke holes in "holier than thou attitudes" simply because, people being people, provide the very ammunition needed to do so.




Kobi,

I agree with your point - this issue is not a simple one; it is indeed very complex. My post was neither meant to be an exhaustive discourse nor a simplifying of an multi-layered socio-economic & global issue. It was meant only to convey, in a neutral tone, my opinion on the subject of boycotting Arizona and to express my very passionate concerns about the dangerous and pervasive beliefs held by a huge portion of our population about undocumented people.

An important sidebar comment: I believe strongly in the importance of socialized medicine and believe that every person (regardless of race, ethnicity, class, age, ability, religious belief, gender, gender identity or sexual orientation, immigration status OR insurance coverage) has a right to medical care. Full stop, no exceptions.

I also agree with what I think you were saying - that there are always exceptions to the rule.

That is why I did not say (for example):
No Undocumented Immigrants ever (have ever, will ever) have recourse to public funds and support (housing, disability, food stamps etc).

I don't believe in, and I try hard not to make statements that are absolutes.
Absolutes beg exceptions.

While I appreciate your attempt to debunk my myth-debunking :)
I have to point out that the news article you cite is not about an undocumented person receiving benefits, it is about a person who arrived in the country as asylum seeker who was ultimately granted legal status. In the interim (between her arrival, first denial and ultimate success at obtaining status) she was never illegal or undocumented. She was documented from the moment she applied for asylum.

In the article she is cited as being "illegal", the use of "illegal" is irresponsible and inaccurate journalism. Mrs. Onyango went through an extensive and lengthy legal system which included a denial, a deportation order and legal appeals which lasted over ten years, during which time she was not granted public housing nor disability support.
She was, however, given medical care when she had a medical emergency but then went on to live in homeless shelters and battled a crippling disease. I, for one, am incredibly relieved that at some hospital in Boston they did NOT throw her out on the street when she was most in need.

Regardless, as I said, there are always exceptions to absolutes.
I'm quite sure someone else on this forum could come in here and tell me that they know someone who knows someone who illegally crossed a border and managed to trick several government social services agencies and obtain a free house and benefits, and lived the life of reilly at the US tax payers expense.

My opinions about the pervasiveness and dangerousness of these myths (as I see them) is based on my personal and professional experience.
*I* have personally been on the sharp side of immigration bureaucracy and I have worked with 1000s of people from around the world in similar (and FAR FAR FAR WORSE) situations than my own.

The belief that all immigrants are economic migrants determined to swindle honest hardworking "legal" citizens from their resources is prevalent not only in the US but also UK, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Australia (to name but a few countries).
I think it is scary and I believe the truths of these beliefs need to be redressed.
To my mind, Arizona's legislation embodies all that I find most disturbing about these beliefs.

As to boycotting a place, you are quite right, if I were to boycott every state and nation that has legislation on their books that I find unjust - I don't know where in the world I could live (never mind travel as a tourist). I can not boycott every state nor every nation; just as I can not fight for every political or ideological belief I have - I have to pick & choose my battles, my boycotts and which "issues" I expend my resources on.

Immigration Rights (which to my mind exemplifies my beliefs about basic human rights) - is one (of a few) that I choose.

ps. my tone isn't intended to be holier than thou or holier than anyone, but I accept that my voice can be read that way, particularly when I dive in to a topic I so passionately care about.

[Corkey]

i dont like this thread because i do take it personal.. and everytime i post in here i am bashed because i live here and i love my home and my state.. i do wonder how other states would handle the exact problem we have.. so i come in here to read.. but i no longer will post in here either..

The beauty of a state doesn't negate the ugliness of racism. It persists in every culture, so while you have your opinion, of how you love your state, I have facts that make the ugliness stand out like a sore thumb. The two are not exclusive to your state.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I, too, live in Arizona. However, even though yes, I can read, I haven't lived here long enough to have an opinion about local politics.. yet. I refuse to gain all of my "knowledge" from reading articles and other peoples' opinions.

However, I do think Cody is and has been bashed for his opinions. And I do think much of what he has said has been taken out of context and pounced upon.

Someone stated that they wanted to see Arizona collapse. Really? So, all the people who voted against the current government should go down in flames too? Unbelievable.




The articles we all posted about what was going Arizona contain nothing but facts, what your Governor did, tried to do and has been doing is something we did not make up, lie about, and distort. When cody came upon this thread he was clueless to what was going on in his own state. Here is the exchange:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nat http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227325#post227325)
Panelists: Arizona SB 1070 has had profound impact on Native Americans (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Nov10/NativeAmerPanel.html)

since the bill became law, racism has become legitimized, and violence against Native peoples "is more blatant than ever." Recently, "tribal members out in the desert chopping wood have been handcuffed and beaten because they didn't have any identification on them," he said. Although the people were on their tribal land, he noted, "somehow the border patrol saw this as a legitimate way to detain people and abuse people violently."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227325#post227325)



is this happening here in az? i live here and watch the news daily.. ive heard of no such thing. i also have many native american friends that well most of them like the seperation of themselfs not being clumped in. i dont care for the law much but there are alot of untruths flying around about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227329#post227329)
is this happening here in az? i live here and watch the news daily.. ive heard of no such thing. i also have many native american friends that well most of them like the seperation of themselfs not being clumped in. i dont care for the law much but there are alot of untruths flying around about it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLastHome http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227338#post227338)



The article is by Native American spokespeople and stems from a panel of Native Americans as part of a discussion among Native activist leaders. It isn't from a news broadcast depicting one specific news event.

Now, I do remember that Gov. Brewer did take back her initial statements about headless bodies in the desert due to criminal Latino immigrants a couple of months back. That seemed to be a rumor and entirely false. Good she cleared that up.


He dismissed it by comparing it to a one squeaky wheel being overheard in a group of wheels.


Then this morning he comes in and says

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=227338#post227338)



gawd i dont like this thread... az is my home and i love it.. i dont always like what the gov. does here.. but there is so much more to this state that i will not boycot.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this..


Now, had he read the whole thread from its inception he would see that it was started to discuss what was happening (truths) in AZ with its law that lead and would of lead to racial profiling. People aren't saying everyone in AZ should perish, die, or disappear. We aren't denying it's beauty and ethnic history.

What we did do is discuss what everyone should be discussing when it comes to legal human rights. Once we turn a blind eye to a law that profiles one particular *look* of people we are headed for some incredible fucked up trouble.

No one is jumping Cody or saying Cody shouldn't be here etc etc. What I do see is people who are passionate express themselves about what is going on and its injustice.

It kills me when someone says something that is going to get an unpopular response use the deflective *I am getting piled up on* defense.

FFS cody came up in here using terms such as "that look" and brushing it off with the claims of Native American heritage and state love etc etc. It's ridiculous to cry *pile on* when you say something that may or may not be read as offensive.

It would be as ridiculous if I went to the nilla there and said:

"gawd i dont like this thread... BDSM is my life and i love it.. i dont always like what the all the play parties and there different rules.. but there is so much more to BDSM that ya'll don't know about so why do you need this space?.. also there are still alot of unthuths about this... WOW how rude."

I am pretty sure and I would expect my ass would get handed to me for coming up in a space and pointing my finger at folks.

I am no holier than though, hell I am nowhere close to this term, what I am is passionate about this matter not only because it's the right thing to do, but it affects me since I am one of those people this state considers undesirable.

Oh as for the economic demise wished upon your state- Sometimes we need to give up things to get what we must have. I would rather have nothing then stand by and watch someone stripped of their human rights, I sometimes envy those who pick comfort over what is right, till we are all willing to hurt a lil, bleed a lil, lose a lil, then nothing is ever going to change.

[QueenofSmirks]

I find it offensive that it is implied that anyone who lives here (in Arizona) or stands up for it is somehow a part of "this racist state".

The entire state is not racist; I don't even agree that the majority of people who live here are racist. I, do, however, believe that our political system is fucked up and people get elected for ALL KINDS of reasons, not necessarily because they are popular or right or hold a majority opinion. The same goes for laws written by these people. I lived in Colorado when Amendment 2 passed - the first anti-gay legislation to ever get on a ballot. I didn't hate or blame the entire state of Colorado. The wording on the ballot was confusing; the conservative right banded together and got everyone in a frenzy - so it passed.

I don't believe in boycotting the entire state of Arizona, I didn't believe in it before I moved here either. I do believe in fighting the problems, instead of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" so to speak.

[Kobi]

Sparkle,

Thank you for your response. I understand your positions better now.

One of the complexities with this situation which worries me is when I hear people calling to boycott a state (or anything else for that matter) and wishing harm come to any group (or government) because of their beliefs.

The reasons it bothers me are two fold. First, the vehemence with which these words are spoken are full of anger and "hate". Hate of hate is still hate.
If one wants a more rational approach to issues facing the world at large, using hate to combat hate just seems to breed more hatred. It doesnt make sense to me as an effective method.

Second, when I hear people talk about boycotts....sometimes this is effective, providing it is aimed at the correct places. If there arent enough dollars coming into Arizona because of a boycott, who do you think is going to be hurt most by this? Will the governor not have a place to call home or have an empty belly? NO. The very people you are trying to advocate for are the very people who get hurt when the government (and I use the term loosely here) doesnt have the money for the programs that people rely on.

I understand the outrage and I understand the issues around racial profiling. What I don't understand is how the methods being promoted to deal with it are any better than the initial issue.

In this respect, the government is saying there are "acceptable losses" in dealing with immigration issues. And the response is saying there are "acceptable losses" in boycotts. Both are throwing the groups in question under the wheels of the bus in their quest to be right.

It is a very complex issue for many countries. And no one, yet, seems to have a viable answer. But, I am pretty sure, crucifying the people you are trying to protect, from either standpoint, isnt it.

[QueenofSmirks]

No one is jumping Cody or saying Cody shouldn't be here etc etc. What I do see is people who are passionate express themselves about what is going on and its injustice.

I'll agree to disagree.... You call it being passionate, I see it as something else .


Oh as for the economic demise wished upon your state- Sometimes we need to give up things to get what we must have. I would rather have nothing then stand by and watch someone stripped of their human rights, I sometimes envy those who pick comfort over what is right, till we are all willing to hurt a lil, bleed a lil, lose a lil, then nothing is ever going to change.



My comment about the economic demise wished upon this state has nothing to do with me personally. I can go anywhere; I'm not tied here, I don't have family here. This is not to say I would run away, but I do have other options if things get crazy.

I do stand up for human rights, and I'm rather vocal about it. My point was that I'm concerned about the people you all claim to be so concerned about. What will happen to THEM if Arizona collapses? Do you think they'll just dust themselves off and start over??? Do you really think an economic collapse of this state is going to magically fix everything?

[Corkey]

I think that the state won't collapse as you say, but I do think if the people, you know that 70% who agree with that racist law, feel the economic sting of the boycott then it is well worth the fight. You see those are the folks who don't care about the welfare of their brothers and sisters, and are likely the vary people who would deny you your rights.
So yes the political pressure of the boycott will have consequences, and I sure hope folks start paying attention to what is happening because of racist laws.
We are not a free society if the least of us are not free.

[Julie]

I'll agree to disagree.... You call it being passionate, I see it as something else .

My comment about the economic demise wished upon this state has nothing to do with me personally. I can go anywhere; I'm not tied here, I don't have family here. This is not to say I would run away, but I do have other options if things get crazy.

I do stand up for human rights, and I'm rather vocal about it. My point was that I'm concerned about the people you all claim to be so concerned about. What will happen to THEM if Arizona collapses? Do you think they'll just dust themselves off and start over??? Do you really think an economic collapse of this state is going to magically fix everything?


Stephanie,

I completely understand your concern. You live in Arizona. MY GOD - I would be panicking just about now, if my state was potentially going to see a collapse. I believe your state is in major trouble. I would start looking for an escape route. Truly!

If New York were to instill such a law on the books. I can promise you this. I would start planning on leaving New York. But not before I got off my ass and fought the fight. I would not give my money to a state which discriminates and is no better than those who practice ethnic cleansing. Just because we are not killing people - The propaganda which your state is putting forth, such as the billboard Snow posted earlier - Is license to KILL!

As a member of a country which allows free speech (an oxymoron of sorts). I am embarrassed when I tell people I am american. I am ashamed. And one day when my kids are older - I will leave.

And the people who are against the bill. I am sorry for them. Truly sorry for them. I am hoping they are out looking for jobs in other states. I am also hoping they are campaigning in full force against this. However, we do know this to be true. So many bitch and cry and stomp their feet - but they never use their voices.

Julie

[Kobi]

Corkey,

I hope you know how much I respect you even tho we don't always agree on issues.

This is really bugging me because we all seem to be operating on the idea that the problem is because of everyone else. It is not US, it is THEM.... however you see us and them.

The us and the them is a nasty way of looking at unpleasant issues. Because sometimes, WE are THEM or US and it "aint" pretty.

Example......have you seen the movie "Flag Wars"? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0359281/ It is a fascinating wake up call when groups that are oppressed actually become the oppressors.

In this documentary, a Black neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio was invaded by white, gay and lesbian people. The butch real estate agent did her best to force the city to enforce building codes. In doing so, she singlehandedly, threw people out of their family homes because they lacked the resources to bring the properties up to code and, because they were poor and Black, they couldn't get loans to cover the costs. Hence, here is a neighborhood of cheap homes ripe for the picking by white persons of queerness who acted like vultures in snatching up as many underpriced properties as they could.

It sickened me to watch my brothers and sisters act like unfeeling robots focused only on the attainment of property without any regard as to how they came by it or what deviousness was used for them to have this opportunity.

But, were the queers out there saying hey, this isnt right? This isnt ethical? Did our queer buds give a crap about the people they displaced? Did we queerfolk care that we were taking advantage of people who had no means to defend themselves or their homes? Were we out there marching and protesting and calling for boycotts? Nope.

This is US doing to THEM, just as WE have been done against. This was, quite simply, the most disgusting display of white priviledge, white audacity, queer audacity, and simple inhumanity.

My point is before we start pointing fingers, assigning blame, and acting all righteous and stuff....we need to take an inventory of ourselves. It is really easy to be liberal and loving and concerned for equality in a vacuum like this. It is quite another to live it out there in the real world where we are faced with difficult, complex, sometimes disgusting choices.

Life is just not that simple. Answers are just not that simple.

[QueenofSmirks]

I think that the state won't collapse as you say, but I do think if the people, you know that 70% who agree with that racist law, feel the economic sting of the boycott then it is well worth the fight. You see those are the folks who don't care about the welfare of their brothers and sisters, and are likely the vary people who would deny you your rights.
So yes the political pressure of the boycott will have consequences, and I sure hope folks start paying attention to what is happening because of racist laws.
We are not a free society if the least of us are not free.

Yes, a boycott certainly will have consequences... likely very bad consequences for the very people you claim it will "help". It's a BAD idea, but hey, I'm willing to listen and read about any statistical facts that prove otherwise. And I don't mean historical facts about OTHER boycotts in other places, I mean the supposed / theoretical boycott of Arizona NOW, and how it is "helping" to resolve these issues. Just for the record, I'm not the one that brought up the idea/wish for a collapse of Arizona, I'm merely responding.

[Corkey]

Corkey,

I hope you know how much I respect you even tho we don't always agree on issues.

This is really bugging me because we all seem to be operating on the idea that the problem is because of everyone else. It is not US, it is THEM.... however you see us and them.

The us and the them is a nasty way of looking at unpleasant issues. Because sometimes, WE are THEM or US and it "aint" pretty.

Example......have you seen the movie "Flag Wars"? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0359281/ It is a fascinating wake up call when groups that are oppressed actually become the oppressors.

In this documentary, a Black neighborhood in Columbus, Ohio was invaded by white, gay and lesbian people. The butch real estate agent did her best to force the city to enforce building codes. In doing so, she singlehandedly, threw people out of their family homes because they lacked the resources to bring the properties up to code and, because they were poor and Black, they couldn't get loans to cover the costs. Hence, here is a neighborhood of cheap homes ripe for the picking by white persons of queerness who acted like vultures in snatching up as many underpriced properties as they could.

It sickened me to watch my brothers and sisters act like unfeeling robots focused only on the attainment of property without any regard as to how they came by it or what deviousness was used for them to have this opportunity.

But, were the queers out there saying hey, this isnt right? This isnt ethical? Did our queer buds give a crap about the people they displaced? Did we queerfolk care that we were taking advantage of people who had no means to defend themselves or their homes? Were we out there marching and protesting and calling for boycotts? Nope.

This is US doing to THEM, just as WE have been done against. This was, quite simply, the most disgusting display of white priviledge, white audacity, queer audacity, and simple inhumanity.

My point is before we start pointing fingers, assigning blame, and acting all righteous and stuff....we need to take an inventory of ourselves. It is really easy to be liberal and loving and concerned for equality in a vacuum like this. It is quite another to live it out there in the real world where we are faced with difficult, complex, sometimes disgusting choices.

Life is just not that simple. Answers are just not that simple.






I'm sorry Kobi that you feel the need to assume my post is about us v them. It is us v us. We all have a responsibility to live an authentic life, to do the right thing by ourselves and others. White people don't get to tell other races that they don't belong here. White people don't get to use others and then throw them away because they aren't documented, they don't get to harass or otherwise discriminate against other people because of their skin color. They sure as hell don't get to lock other races up for profit.
These are the facts of the matter. If you choose to ignore it, by all means do so, but I'll thank you not to assume that I will do the same. It is simple discrimination in any form is vile. I shall not participate in it. I therefore boycott Arizona, and any company doing business in Arizona.

[Corkey]

Yes, a boycott certainly will have consequences... likely very bad consequences for the very people you claim it will "help". It's a BAD idea, but hey, I'm willing to listen and read about any statistical facts that prove otherwise. And I don't mean historical facts about OTHER boycotts in other places, I mean the supposed / theoretical boycott of Arizona NOW, and how it is "helping" to resolve these issues. Just for the record, I'm not the one that brought up the idea/wish for a collapse of Arizona, I'm merely responding.



Personally not doing business with Arizona or any company doing business in Arizona. I will continue to do so until that racist law is repealed. That is my right. If it helps to bring down that woman and her cronies who are racist, I don't really care what happens to them.

[QueenofSmirks]

Stephanie,

I completely understand your concern. You live in Arizona. MY GOD - I would be panicking just about now, if my state was potentially going to see a collapse. I believe your state is in major trouble. I would start looking for an escape route. Truly!...


I'm not prone to hysteria, especially for something that may or may not happen, and it certainly won't happen overnight in any case. The other side of that coin is I don't consider Arizona "my" state. It's a state - I live here. I've lived in many states. This probably won't be the last state I live in. Yes, while I'm here I am concerned about what goes on here, but do I feel panicked? No, not at all. California is bankrupt but still operates as a state. I have family there. Other than the housing market being in the crapper, like it is all over the U.S., their lives aren't much worse than anyone else's in this country. So no, I don't have an escape route planned. Until there is a reason for me to leave, I'm here.

As I've stated all along, my concern is not for myself - it's for people who don't have the means to go somewhere else and make a better life for themselves. They are going to be hurt most of all by a boycott, not the highly paid assholes who thought up this crap in the first place.

[QueenofSmirks]

Personally not doing business with Arizona or any company doing business in Arizona. I will continue to do so until that racist law is repealed. That is my right. If it helps to bring down that woman and her cronies who are racist, I don't really care what happens to them.

Sure, it's your right to boycott... I never implied that you don't have such a right. I'm curious about the effect your boycott is having on the very people who are being discriminated against, although it's certainly your right to harm them as well. I doubt it's having any effect at all on "that woman and her cronies." They will certainly be the last ones to be affected.

[Corkey]

The people who I'm talking about are Native to this land, they will survive as they have always done. The migrant workers have already moved on leaving their homes selling their belongings to escape the linch mob mentality that persists in the wild west. Those who are left are the very citizens of this country who feel the whip of racism every single day, and the white people. Frankly I'm not concerned about the white people, they get what they deserve when they voted those morons in, the Native people those are whom I'm concerned about, and help however I can, whenever I can.
I'm done with explaining myself.

[QueenofSmirks]

Well, I can't, or won't, jump on the bandwagon of "white people get what they deserve", so I guess this is where we'll part ways in the conversation.

[weatherboi]

i boycotted Colorado to the best of my ability back when amendment 2 was presented. for a person that enjoys what Colorado has to offer winter and summer i frequented the state during vacation time. i am sure there are many people here that remember that boycott that the gay community organized back then and i also can remember people in our community moving from there. the gay bashing was out of hand and it was all over the news. do ya'll remember that???

i will boycott Arizona to the best of my ability.

as far as trying to compare the Ohio Easton area take over to the legislation that was created by the citizens and lawmakers of Arizona it really doesn't seem logical. it feels reachy.

i am never a fan of the "pile up" accusations. it seems to me if someone boasts an unpopular opinion then they should be able to deal with others coming in here and stating what they think about it without judgment from the poster or the posters supporters.

[katsarecool]

I have read this entire thread and have to say something further as a person who hasn't really participated in it much. I see way more similarities in posts from the "opposing" sides than differences here. I see many of you posting the same ideals and concerns; just wording them differently. I have not read anywhere by anyone that they support SB 1070.

Immigration is such a hot button issue especially in the last few years or so. Well if one looks back through history this is not the first time it has come up and become heated. It does seem to come up more often in times when a country is economic distress. It doesn't help that the Republican party has stoked the fires of fear, hatred, resentment, myths and down right lies concerning our neighbors to the South.

Perhaps the laws that are presently on the books are faulty and do need reform. But there was never a need for the mean-spirited SB1070!!! Or people in office like Jan Brewer and that nasty sheriff!!! I think that the laws that are on the books should be enforced and obeyed by employers. I agree that unless someone has a legal right to work in this country (green card) then they should not be allowed to do so. But on the other hand our laws need to be more inclusive of people who are not of White European ancestry. Because clearly they are not as they stand presently.

I think that every person who has ever stepped foot on this continent came here because they wanted a better way of life for themselves and their families. And while there are many aspects of our history here in the US that I am not proud of; emigrants from all over the world have made our country what it is today. Strong, powerful, empathetic and compassionate.

[Julie]

I agree that unless someone has a legal right to work in this country (green card) then they should not be allowed to do so. But on the other hand our laws need to be more inclusive of people who are not of White European ancestry. Because clearly they are not as they stand presently.

Have you ever attempted to apply for a Green Card? This country does not welcome immigrants. In order to get the Green Card, you either have to marry or you have to pay off some rich attorney.

This country does not welcome immigrants. Not even those immigrants who served in the military as one of our allies.

Quote from Immigration Equality:

"Under current U.S. immigration laws, lesbian and gay Americans do not have the right to sponsor their foreign national partners for residency, as their straight neighbors do. Instead, immigration laws force these couples — about 17,000 of whom are raising young children who are American citizens — to separate or leave the country, forced into exile because their families are not recognized under federal law. This painful reality is forcing many American citizens, and their families, to flee their own country, exacting a heavy cost on our economy, communities and on the countless people who constitute their extended families, too."

There are 19 countries which allow for this. Yet the USA does not. Ireland is coming up, so make that 20.

http://www.immigrationequality.org

Now... Let's imagine a poor Mexican person living in a remote part of his/her country and all they want to do is provide a safe place for their family. I lived in mexico as a child and saw the poverty and disease because of poor living conditions and poor health care.

I will always believe in opening our borders. It is what this country was based on. Statue of Liberty still stand today...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Have we forgotten?

[Soon]

Kats,

Is it Americans who believe that their country is "empathetic and compassionate" (your last sentence in post 866)?

I have to say that, as a Canadian, those are two descriptors that no one I know would ever attach to the USA.

Many people around the world are enraged at the LACK of empathy and compassion demonstrated by some USA policies and laws -- especially when it comes to immigration, war, poverty, social issues, and equality in general.

[katsarecool]

Have you ever attempted to apply for a Green Card? This country does not welcome immigrants. In order to get the Green Card, you either have to marry or you have to pay off some rich attorney.

This country does not welcome immigrants. Not even those immigrants who served in the military as one of our allies.

Quote from Immigration Equality:

"Under current U.S. immigration laws, lesbian and gay Americans do not have the right to sponsor their foreign national partners for residency, as their straight neighbors do. Instead, immigration laws force these couples — about 17,000 of whom are raising young children who are American citizens — to separate or leave the country, forced into exile because their families are not recognized under federal law. This painful reality is forcing many American citizens, and their families, to flee their own country, exacting a heavy cost on our economy, communities and on the countless people who constitute their extended families, too."

There are 19 countries which allow for this. Yet the USA does not. Ireland is coming up, so make that 20.

http://www.immigrationequality.org

Now... Let's imagine a poor Mexican person living in a remote part of his/her country and all they want to do is provide a safe place for their family. I lived in mexico as a child and saw the poverty and disease because of poor living conditions and poor health care.

I will always believe in opening our borders. It is what this country was based on. Statue of Liberty still stand today...

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Have we forgotten?
I have been through the process with my ex husband and know how tough it can be. I did say in my post that I thought the present laws needed to be more fair to coming here from countries other than White European. And it does need to be more fair!! I am not sure how this can be done but something needs to be done.

As much as I see flaws in this country I also believe most people here aptly fill my description of strong, empathetic and compassionate. I stand by those words.

[Soon]

I have been through the process with my ex husband and know how tough it can be. I did say in my post that I thought the present laws needed to be more fair to coming here from countries other than White European. And it does need to be more fair!! I am not sure how this can be done but something needs to be done.

As much as I see flaws in this country I also believe most people here aptly fill my description of strong, empathetic and compassionate. I stand by those words.

Well, now you are referring to citizens of your country as empathetic and compassionate and not the country itself which is a much different sentiment than in your previous post, #866.

As for going through the process with your ex-husband of USA immigration, at least you were allowed the process.

I am denied the ability to immigrate, work and live with my husband--in the USA--based on the unjust laws of your country.

[katsarecool]

Well, now you are referring to citizens of your country as empathetic and compassionate and not the country itself which is a much different sentiment than in your previous post, #866.

As for going through the process with your ex-husband of USA immigration, at least you were allowed the process.

I am denied the ability to immigrate, work and live with my husband based on the unjust laws of your country.
I am sorry that you are not able to come here to live your life with your partner. And I do hope that will be possible in the future. I do believe once Same Sex marriage is recognized and legalized in this country immigration will be possible for millions. Rightly so.

As far as your first paragraph I am not seeing what you are seeing.

My ex husband was from Colombia, and believe me getting a green card for someone from that country was not an easy matter. Or pleasant either.

[Soon]

I am sorry that you are not able to come here to live your life with your partner. And I do hope that will be possible in the future. I do believe once Same Sex marriage is recognized and legalized in this country immigration will be possible for millions. Rightly so.

As far as your first paragraph I am not seeing what you are seeing.

My ex husband was from Colombia, and believe me getting a green card for someone from that country was not an easy matter. Or pleasant either.

He's my husband, not partner.

Whether or not it was easy, you had the right to sponsor your ex for immigration. My husband does not have that same right.



As for the "empathetic and compassionate" -- your earlier post posited that the USA -- as a country -- is characterized by these qualities--your next post said the people have these characteristices--that is quite a difference and makes me wonder what qualities of the USA actually DO demonstrate these traits when the opposite appears to be true in so many of its policies!

I hope this clarified my earlier response.

[katsarecool]

He's my husband, not partner.

What I am saying is that everyone has the right to sponsor their opposite sex spouse for immigration. Whether or not that is granted or not, is a different story.

Under DOMA, federal immigration rights do not extend to married queer folks and that DOES include transfolks in many circumstances.

You had the legal right to sponsor your husband for immigration. THOUSANDS do not have the same right.

I hope this clarified my earlier response.You and I are on the same page regarding DOMA and immigration rights for same-sex marriages.

[Dreamer]

You and I are on the same page regarding DOMA and immigration rights for same-sex marriages.

It does not even have to be about marriage. Australia does not recognise same sex marriages either, HOWEVER we do recognise defacto relationships between same sex couples which allows us the same right to sponsor our partners for Immigration purposes.
I am also curious about this part of your post,

"I did say in my post that I thought the present laws needed to be more fair to coming here from countries other than White European."

I am not sure how it is harder for one than the other.

[Soon]

You and I are on the same page regarding DOMA and immigration rights for same-sex marriages.

I think I misread your question regarding my earlier post, so I edited my response quite a bit to, hopefully, clarify myself; I am confused that someone from our community--especially--would consider the USA "empathetic" and "compassionate" when so many of its laws/policies are in direct opposition to these qualities and have, actually, directly and negatively impacted our lives.

Just to let you know, it isn't just same sex marriages that have immigration issues. My husband is trans, and access to immigration rights are not a given based on transition.

//sorry for getting a bit off topic, AZ immig thread!//

[dreadgeek]

i am a member on this comunity like it or not. and even though im lt brn hair blue eyed i am 1/2 native american.. i live in az and i love it.. i vote to try to change things im not comfertable with.. i do not bash others states or there people.

Since you are half-native American (how you pulled off blue-eyed with one Native American parent given that the blue-eyed allele is not endemic to the native population is an issue I'll leave for another time) let me pose this question to you:

You are driving down the street. One of Tucson's finest pulls you over and, given that you are half native and thus would share SOME phenotype traits with the people who are the visual targets of these laws, demands that you do more than just prove you have a license to drive but that you were born in this state. How do you feel? You don't have your birth certificate with you (I'm not blue-eyed and, as far as I know, am nothing more interesting than simply a black American but I don't carry MY birth certificate with me, do you?) and so he then starts to presume you are in the country without proper documentation. NOW are you disturbed by the implications of this law?

One can make the statement that the people of Arizona elected the governor who has become the face of the proponents of this law AFTER she had told lies about beheadings in the desert as a means of justifying this laws draconian tenor without 'bashing' the law. One can boycott the state--as much as that is possible--without 'bashing' anyone.


as far as "the look" i mean the beautiful hispanic and native americans that make up this state.. yes its tuff because the "look" is like alot of the illeagles here.

Okay, here we get into a problem. Let's be clear, the 'outsiders' here are anyone whose ancestors were NOT here 2000 years ago. The relevant regions around the border have been inhabited since 9000 BCE (11,000 years ago). The people who are being termed 'illegals' are the descendants of those people. The border between Mexico and the United States has only existed since the mid-19th century. This is not enough time for the population north of the border to have diverged from that south of the border. This means that the two populations are going to be both genetically and phenotypically identical to one another. The problem, as I see it, is that this law targets American citizens who happen to share a phenotype with people who live one mile south of the border.


if there was some other way to identfy im sure it would be used.
i was not acusing any one person of being a hater sorry if anyone took it that way... i was only stating i wish it didnt exist.
an excuse us for being to broke to suport all comers

Laws have consequences. Arizona passed this law and now Hispanics are leaving the state (a quite sensible response if you ask me--I know that if Oregon passed a similar law targeting blacks, I'd be looking for the exits because this kind of thing *never* turns out well). This may be what the proponents of this law, its supporters and apologists believe that they want. However, I think that in a year or two, they may discover that the law of unintended consequences is as irresistible as gravity. Right now, many may be saying "and good riddance" as Hispanic families drive away. However, each family that leaves AZ is money flowing out of AZ. Those are sales tax dollars that aren't being collected. Those are dollars that are not being spent at restaurants, supermarkets, gas stations, and convenience stores. At last estimate ~100,000 Hispanics have left the state since this law has passed. That is going to start to add up. What's more, these things tend to have feedback loops which play out like this:

Law gets passed, so Hispanics leave the state. This means their money leaves the state with them. So businesses have to lay off some people. The layoffs get blamed on Hispanics who remain in the state so some *new* punitive law is passed. So more Hispanics leave the state. Which causes more economic hardship, which gets blamed on the remaining Hispanics, who leave the state, which causes yet more hardship...

I may be wrong about this. It may play out differently but right now, it appears to be playing out more or less in this fashion. Be careful for what you wish or vote in favor of, you just might get it.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

I find it offensive that it is implied that anyone who lives here (in Arizona) or stands up for it is somehow a part of "this racist state".

The entire state is not racist; I don't even agree that the majority of people who live here are racist. I, do, however, believe that our political system is fucked up and people get elected for ALL KINDS of reasons, not necessarily because they are popular or right or hold a majority opinion. The same goes for laws written by these people. I lived in Colorado when Amendment 2 passed - the first anti-gay legislation to ever get on a ballot. I didn't hate or blame the entire state of Colorado. The wording on the ballot was confusing; the conservative right banded together and got everyone in a frenzy - so it passed.

I don't believe in boycotting the entire state of Arizona, I didn't believe in it before I moved here either. I do believe in fighting the problems, instead of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" so to speak.



The very same thing could be said about, say, the states south of the Mason-Dixon line prior to the end of Jim Crow. Not *everyone* in the state supported those laws--the 30 - 50 percent of those states that were black, for instance, largely did not support segregation laws targeting them. Not all of the whites in those states supported those laws. NEITHER of that actually matters all that much on a day-to-day basis. Precisely how much good does it do to know that not all people in the state support SB 1070 if one is legally driving down the street, gets pulled over for a broken tail light and is then asked for their birth certificate and, when it turns out one is not in possession of it, one is detained? In that moment, as you are put into the police car, how much do you think it matters to know that not everyone supports the law? The law is in force, you are feeling the full effect of the law, do you think it helps to know that your neighbor doesn't support it?

Cheers
Aj

[Glenn]

Well the drug cartel will probabbly still be there, along with the slaves her campaign contributors have...So the gov and her cronies won't run out of those cushie gov. prison jobs. I am being treated like a terrorist and illegal now and I don't have to have the look. The TSA protocols will probabbly spread to trains and buses, and I'll need a license to grow tomatoes in my own backyard soon.

[Novelafemme]

I'm gonna add my $.02 even though I hadn't planned on coming back here. I live in Tucson, AZ and raise my daughters in a co-parenting situation (with my ex-husband) and will continue to do so until they are both graduated from high school. I have lived here since January of 1995 and have seen many changes in this once very quiet pueblo town. While most of Tucson is very liberal (as opposed to Phoenix which tends to be rather conservative) we do have pockets of very uber-conservative, republican, religious right communities...aka: the Jan Brewer/Jesse Kelly pack.

In my 15+ years here I have noticed one major theme present when grappling with border/immigration/human rights issues, and that is fear based tactics as a means of control by those in power. As a state situated directly on the Mexico-US border we deal with racially infused situations on a daily basis. Right now the majority of Tucson is staunchly opposed to SB1070. At the last rally I attended where over 3,000 opponents marched in support of those who do not appear "white" only a dozen or so in favor of SB1070 turned out to voice their opinion. Tucson is vehement in its opposition and I would challenge anyone who thinks otherwise. Local business as well as many corporately owned organizations have come forward in a unified stance against 1070. Signs stating "we do not support hate" with a large SB1070 x'ed out are in nearly every window of every store in town. Even the Tucson Police Department has declared their opposition by refusing to ask for anyone's papers based on 1070's "probable cause" mandate.

Brewer is a complete idiot and I refuse to even discuss her policies because she bases and reinforces them from a place of fear and hate...two things I have zero tolerance for...empathy for the person who embodies their attributes, but not tolerance of. The sheriff has proven mental health issues and should not be in office, but has his hands in the pockets of Big Money and also has a large following of fear mongers who are at his beck and call. I have met Jesse Kelly and the man has not a properly firing neuron in his brain.

As someone earlier stated, AZ is not "my" state, it just happens to be the state I currently live in. Just as I have also lived in NY, California and Arkansas and will hopefully live somewhere on the west coast again in a few years. I do not adopt the mentality spewed forth by our current legislature nor does the majority of the town I live in. Do I support a boycott by the rest of my country/continent/planet...hell ya! We all will feel the inevitable pocketbook pinch but for the most part, we can take it. Standing idly by looking naive and confused or loading up your house with guns and surrounding your property with barbed is your right...but it is not how I choose to live. This state was inhabited by my brown friends long before you or I got here, and I for one am appalled at how these so called "border negotiations" have further ostracized and disenfranchised the AZ/Mexico populous from one another. SB1070 is not the answer and is not supported by Tucson, AZ. Boycott away!

[dreadgeek]

Well the drug cartel will probabbly still be there, along with the slaves her campaign contributors have...So the gov and her cronies won't run out of those cushie gov. prison jobs. I am being treated like a terrorist and illegal now and I don't have to have the look. The TSA protocols will probabbly spread to trains and buses, and I'll need a license to grow tomatoes in my own backyard soon.

As to the last two items (re: TSA protocol spreading to buses and trains and having to have a license to grow plants in your backyard)

1) TSA protocols spreading. Vanishingly improbable. The problem with airplanes is not just that you can kill the people on the plane, you can kill a lot of people on the ground. Most of the dead on 9/11 were on the ground, not on the airplanes.

2) Once again, you are buying into a right-wing fantasy that has as much to do with real law as Star Wars has to do with real science--meaning none-at-all. Provided that you aren't trying to SELL your vegetables you won't have to have a license to grow vegetables. If, however, you are trying to SELL your vegetables then you would--and SHOULD--be required to have a license just as any other food-seller would. Why? Because if we exempt *you* then we have to exempt the next larger size seller, and the next one, and the next one, and the one after that. Eventually, you have a company the size of Monsanto, growing vegetables and no longer having to worry about pesky things like food safety. Is that what you want?

There's a real world out there, popcorn, and real world has facts about it. Those facts are not up for contention--interpretation of those facts, sure. Your opinions about those facts, certainly. But not the facts themselves.

[Glenn]

Well, I remember how it was reported to be undemocratic when an ID had to be shown in Europe during WW11 everywhere. Remember airport scanners? Now it's okay? I know you all will say this has nothing to do with illegals, but we are all illegals if we do not bow down to these government protocols and told to step out of line.

[dreadgeek]

Well, I remember how it was reported to be undemocratic when an ID had to be shown in Europe during WW11 everywhere. Remember airport scanners? Now it's okay? I know you all will say this has nothing to do with illegals, but we are all illegals if we do not bow down to these government protocols and told to step out of line.

*sigh*

Firstly, while both France and England had national ID cards during WW II only France kept it after the war, the English abolished theirs immediately following the war. As far as what happened in the nations conquered by the Germans--it was the Nazi's of COURSE it was not democratic.

As far as your second statement, what could you possibly mean by "we are all illegals if we do not bow down to these government protocols"? Are you saying that not going through a scanner or submitting to a pat-down somehow makes you undocumented? How's that? How could it *possibly* effect my citizenship status?

While this isn't the thread for it (and I'm happy to engage in a more full-bodied argument about the relative merits of the TSA full-body scanners) let me run this past you. So, we get rid of the scanners and we stop the pat downs. For reasons that I won't belabor at this moment, we do not profile either.

Sometime next year another group of enterprising young men from Saudi Arabia hijack a three or four aircraft out of LAX and fly them into the freeway at rush hour. What would your reaction be then, popcorn? Would you shrug and make some comments about omelets and eggs or would you be saying that the administration allowed it to happen and/or was too incompetent to stop it? The point I'm driving at, Popcorn, is that you can't have it all.

You can have (relatively) safe air travel.
You can have (relatively) unobtrusive security protocols.
You can have no security protocols.
You can have (relatively) unsafe air travel.
You can have obtrusive security protocols.

Pick the combination you like the most knowing that some of these options preclude others. For example, you cannot have no security protocols and safe air travel and this obtained LONG before those enterprising young men from Saudi Arabia hijacked airplanes one fine September morning.

Likewise, you can have any of the following:

No Latin American immigrants
Cheap lettuce
Expensive lettuce
Large numbers of Latin American immigrants

Again, certain options preclude other options. The minute you decide that you really don't want to pay $6.00 a head for lettuce you are tacitly choosing to have a large number of Latin American immigrants to pick the lettuce at wages that keep the prices depressed. The cost-of-living in the United States is, at present, artificially depressed in two areas--food and fuel. Absent migrant workers lettuce (and everything else) would quickly rush upward. Absent sweetheart deals with Saudi Arabia gas prices would move to where they 'should' be, which is around $9.00 to $10.00 a gallon. Your vacation or your night out with your honey are artificially cheaper than the market would otherwise predict in large part BECAUSE of undocumented workers.

Now, as a supporter of Labor, I would like to see a guest-worker program. The reason being is that if people can work over-the-table, they have rights. If they have rights, they will exercise them (or attempt to) which will raise the wages of those low-wage earners.

Cheers
Aj


Cheers
Aj

[Novelafemme]

*sigh*

Firstly, while both France and England had national ID cards during WW II only France kept it after the war, the English abolished theirs immediately following the war. As far as what happened in the nations conquered by the Germans--it was the Nazi's of COURSE it was not democratic.

As far as your second statement, what could you possibly mean by "we are all illegals if we do not bow down to these government protocols"? Are you saying that not going through a scanner or submitting to a pat-down somehow makes you undocumented? How's that? How could it *possibly* effect my citizenship status?

While this isn't the thread for it (and I'm happy to engage in a more full-bodied argument about the relative merits of the TSA full-body scanners) let me run this past you. So, we get rid of the scanners and we stop the pat downs. For reasons that I won't belabor at this moment, we do not profile either.

Sometime next year another group of enterprising young men from Saudi Arabia hijack a three or four aircraft out of LAX and fly them into the freeway at rush hour. What would your reaction be then, popcorn? Would you shrug and make some comments about omelets and eggs or would you be saying that the administration allowed it to happen and/or was too incompetent to stop it? The point I'm driving at, Popcorn, is that you can't have it all.

You can have (relatively) safe air travel.
You can have (relatively) unobtrusive security protocols.
You can have no security protocols.
You can have (relatively) unsafe air travel.
You can have obtrusive security protocols.

Pick the combination you like the most knowing that some of these options preclude others. For example, you cannot have no security protocols and safe air travel and this obtained LONG before those enterprising young men from Saudi Arabia hijacked airplanes one fine September morning.

Likewise, you can have any of the following:

No Latin American immigrants
Cheap lettuce
Expensive lettuce
Large numbers of Latin American immigrants

Again, certain options preclude other options. The minute you decide that you really don't want to pay $6.00 a head for lettuce you are tacitly choosing to have a large number of Latin American immigrants to pick the lettuce at wages that keep the prices depressed. The cost-of-living in the United States is, at present, artificially depressed in two areas--food and fuel. Absent migrant workers lettuce (and everything else) would quickly rush upward. Absent sweetheart deals with Saudi Arabia gas prices would move to where they 'should' be, which is around $9.00 to $10.00 a gallon. Your vacation or your night out with your honey are artificially cheaper than the market would otherwise predict in large part BECAUSE of undocumented workers.

Now, as a supporter of Labor, I would like to see a guest-worker program. The reason being is that if people can work over-the-table, they have rights. If they have rights, they will exercise them (or attempt to) which will raise the wages of those low-wage earners.

Cheers
Aj


Cheers
Aj

I totally agree with you, AJ...and I get what you are saying. Bring on the boycott!! Radical change begins with radical notions and I am wholeheartedly leading the pack (so to speak, of course :) ).

The film A Day Without A Mexican is a rather poorly acted satire based on life in California without migrant labor. Not a fabulous film but it did make me think about what life would be like without a menial labor force.

I am curious...given the artificial food and fuel deficit (artificial meaning?? we are lacking or there is a presumed/perceived lack??) what are your thoughts on empowering a more sustainable future. And by sustainable I mean something that can survive and flourish well into the next century.

[dreadgeek]

I totally agree with you, AJ...and I get what you are saying. Bring on the boycott!! Radical change begins with radical notions and I am wholeheartedly leading the pack (so to speak, of course :) ).

The film A Day Without A Mexican is a rather poorly acted satire based on life in California without migrant labor. Not a fabulous film but it did make me think about what life would be like without a menial labor force.

I am curious...given the artificial food and fuel deficit (artificial meaning?? we are lacking or there is a presumed/perceived lack??) what are your thoughts on empowering a more sustainable future. And by sustainable I mean something that can survive and flourish well into the next century.

By artificial, I mean this: if pure market forces were to prevail with the U.S. gas market gas would be closer to the $8 to $10 a gallon range. However, two factors conspire to keep gas prices in the United States in the $3 to $4 a gallon range: Saudi Arabia insists on doing oil sales in dollars, meaning that the price of oil is pegged to the price of the dollar. This keeps oil prices stable (relatively speaking) and lower than they would be if oil could be sold in the currency most advantageous to the seller. Secondly, the Saudis structure oil deals in a form that is advantageous for the United States.

With regard to food, both the price of transportation (oil/gas) and the price of farm labor (immigrants) makes the price of food lower than it otherwise would be. Imagine that gas prices were where they 'should' be (we'll call it $9 a gallon). Imagine also that farm workers were paid the prevailing minimum wage AND had to be covered by health insurance if they were full-time workers. That head of lettuce (or that evening out) would have all of that cost passed on to you. At present, iceberg lettuce at my local Safeway is $1.08 a head. That $1.00 head of lettuce should, if market forces prevailed, should probably be closer to a $5 or $6 head of lettuce but because of the factors above, it's much, much cheaper. Even if I'm wrong by half, we're *still* talking about that head of lettuce being 300% more expensive at market value.

As far as sustainable future--that's a hard one and I don't want to derail this thread too much. If you start a thread, though, I'll participate.

Cheers
Aj

[Novelafemme]

By artificial, I mean this: if pure market forces were to prevail with the U.S. gas market gas would be closer to the $8 to $10 a gallon range. However, two factors conspire to keep gas prices in the United States in the $3 to $4 a gallon range: Saudi Arabia insists on doing oil sales in dollars, meaning that the price of oil is pegged to the price of the dollar. This keeps oil prices stable (relatively speaking) and lower than they would be if oil could be sold in the currency most advantageous to the seller. Secondly, the Saudis structure oil deals in a form that is advantageous for the United States.

With regard to food, both the price of transportation (oil/gas) and the price of farm labor (immigrants) makes the price of food lower than it otherwise would be. Imagine that gas prices were where they 'should' be (we'll call it $9 a gallon). Imagine also that farm workers were paid the prevailing minimum wage AND had to be covered by health insurance if they were full-time workers. That head of lettuce (or that evening out) would have all of that cost passed on to you. At present, iceberg lettuce at my local Safeway is $1.08 a head. That $1.00 head of lettuce should, if market forces prevailed, should probably be closer to a $5 or $6 head of lettuce but because of the factors above, it's much, much cheaper. Even if I'm wrong by half, we're *still* talking about that head of lettuce being 300% more expensive at market value.

As far as sustainable future--that's a hard one and I don't want to derail this thread too much. If you start a thread, though, I'll participate.

Cheers
Aj

Precisely what I thought. And I don't think it would be derailing the thread to actively explore the notion of sustainability as a result of empowerment. In my eyes the two go hand in hand in order to effect change.

Peace :)

[dreadgeek]

I wanted to go back to something a couple of folks brought up yesterday which is the inherent danger of demonizing a group of people.

On Friday, I woke to find out that a 19 year old Somali immigrant had been arrested by the FBI because he had conspired to set off a bomb at the local X-mas tree lighting in downtown Portland. This young man is a naturalized citizen and has been here since he was very young. On the news site where I was following this story (Huffington Post) there were numerous comments of the 'arrest 'em all let God sort them out' variety. On Sunday, I woke to find out that this young man's mosque in Corvalis (just south of Portland) had been firebombed.

Now, this kid had not been radicalized in his mosque--he went and found radicalism on his own. No one was hurt this time but the key is this time. If you make Muslims 'The Problem' then burning mosques is the next logical step.

My concern with SB 1070 and a law in Oklahoma making Sharia law illegal (and no, NO jurisdiction in the United States does nor can it ever make Sharia law authoritative without a Constitutional amendment repealing the First Amendment--anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you) is that their purpose is to demonize the Other. SB 1070 isn't about making sure that Sven is on the first KLM flight back to the Hague the very hour his visa expires. It isn't about making certain that Bonnie from Sheffield isn't on the first boat back to England when her visa expires. SB 1070 is about making sure that Pablo, from Mexico, and Isabel, from El Salvador are made to know that they are not welcome here. No one looking like my wife is going to get picked up on suspicion of being in the country illegally--she has red hair and hazel eyes. No, they are going to be looking for someone with darker skin, darker hair and brown eyes. It may make us all feel better to pretend that it is otherwise but half-an-hour with just 20th century United States history will put the lie to that. (And yes, I'm quite aware that Irish, Poles and Italians all faced discrimination--keep in mind that with each group there was SOME phenotypic difference that made them easy to spot whether that was accent, name, skin color, religion.)

Now there is serious discussion about repealing or changing the 14th Amendment so that people born here are not automatically citizens. The 14th Amendment is written the way it was for a reason--to keep citizenship *away* from the vagaries of outrageous political fortune. We mess with it at our peril. NO person of color should look at any attempt to amend the 14th Amendment lightly (and yes, it is something that the effects would disproportionately fall upon people of color--despite all our feel good, kumbaya singing most people, when they hear the word "American" think of someone several shades lighter than my brown skinned self whether they want to or not).

Cheers
Aj

[betenoire]

despite all our feel good, kumbaya singing most people, when they hear the word "American" think of someone several shades lighter than my brown skinned self whether they want to or not).

Cheers
Aj

It's true. I'll own up to that.

Mind you, the white person who I think of when I heard the word "American" also has huge hair and tapered jeans and a sweatshirt with a really ugly emblem on it and is loud and probably cut in front of me in line somewhere and has a gun in her purse / down the back of his pants and is selfish and inconsiderate and mean and watches too much television. I mean, seriously, it's NEVER an attractive, friendly, and smart white person who comes to mind for me. Ever.

That doesn't make me any less of a jerkface, of course. Probably a bit more of a jerkface.

[dreadgeek]

It's true. I'll own up to that.

Mind you, the white person who I think of when I heard the word "American" also has huge hair and tapered jeans and a sweatshirt with a really ugly emblem on it and is loud and probably cut in front of me in line somewhere and has a gun in her purse / down the back of his pants and is selfish and inconsiderate and mean and watches too much television. I mean, seriously, it's NEVER an attractive, friendly, and smart white person who comes to mind for me. Ever.

That doesn't make me any less of a jerkface, of course. Probably a bit more of a jerkface.

And in some ways, it is understandable WHY people think 'white' when they think 'American'. America is now far *more* diverse than it has been since at any point since the late 18th century and, if my math is correct, the United States is still about 80% white. Now, that said, I still find the idea to be disturbing to me *as an American* because--and here my romantic naivete is on full display--I actually bought into this idea that what makes an American is nothing more than buying into a particular set of principles. Americans aren't defined by race, we aren't defined by ethnicity, we aren't defined by religion, we are defined--as the historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr. wrote--by commitment to an ideal. If you buy into this ideal of individual liberty, freedom of conscience, the rule of law and not of men, equality before the law and some kind of egalitarianism then you are an American. So when Sarah Palin talks about 'real America' and makes it clear that she's not talking about people who either look OR think like me, I have a problem.

Cheers
Aj

[betenoire]

And in some ways, it is understandable WHY people think 'white' when they think 'American'. America is now far *more* diverse than it has been since at any point since the late 18th century and, if my math is correct, the United States is still about 80% white. Now, that said, I still find the idea to be disturbing to me *as an American* because--and here my romantic naivete is on full display--I actually bought into this idea that what makes an American is nothing more than buying into a particular set of principles. Americans aren't defined by race, we aren't defined by ethnicity, we aren't defined by religion, we are defined--as the historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr. wrote--by commitment to an ideal. If you buy into this ideal of individual liberty, freedom of conscience, the rule of law and not of men, equality before the law and some kind of egalitarianism then you are an American. So when Sarah Palin talks about 'real America' and makes it clear that she's not talking about people who either look OR think like me, I have a problem.

Cheers
Aj

Based on your / Arthur Schlesinger Jr's definition of an American...well, I am an American. Except that I'm not and wouldn't want anybody to confuse me with one (the reason for this is probably 60% because I think that the US isn't a great place and 40% because I want everybody to know that I'm Canadian.)

I think that someone like me views a certain type of person as American BECAUSE OF people like Sarah Palin and -their- ideas of what it is to be an American. Palin has her idea of a white, christian, homey American archetype and views that as something positive. People from outside of the US (that would be me) hear/see Palin and because her and people like her are SO GODDAMN LOUD we begin to also see the white, christian, homey American archetype - but we do not view it as something positive.

[dreadgeek]

Precisely what I thought. And I don't think it would be derailing the thread to actively explore the notion of sustainability as a result of empowerment. In my eyes the two go hand in hand in order to effect change.

Peace :)

Well, actually, there are a couple of things I would like to see done that are relevant here.

1) I, for one, will dance on the grave of the nation state. Was it an improvement over feudalism? Yes. Was it an improvement over the divine right of kings? Absolutely! Is it time for this dinosaur to stop moving? Probably so. The United States, Mexico and Canada form a 'natural' economic sphere. I would love to see all three nations functionally dissolve their borders, create one job market with a common set of labor laws (the ones MOST on the side of workers, thank you very much), a common set of environmental laws and a common currency. I think that regional alliances are the next natural progression until we can go to some kind of international Federalist state. (And yes, I'm talking about a single planetary government and before anyone says boo about biblical prophecies, I simply do not care. I don't think we should make public policy based upon multi-thousand year old tales, told around the fire by desert nomads and a single, common federal government on the model of the EU but for the whole planet makes sense to me.)

2) Achieving number 1 would allow us to move on to number 2. Corporations need to be put back on the leash. At present, the nation state *serves* the corporate state because if, say, Canada takes the whole idea of labor and environmental laws too seriously and the company in question is run by venal enough people, the corporation will just move to some other country where the labor laws are less in existence and the environmental regulations exist only in speech if at all. With only a single, Federal planetary government these corporate behemoths have nowhere to go, no where to hide.

3) We need to reset expectations. The idea that every quarter a company must grow, grow, grow is insane. There really ARE limits to growth, we need to learn to live within them.

4) The widespread dissemination and dispersion of scientific knowledge. More people, live longer and healthier lives because of science. In a state of nature, I was dead certainly by thirty-three. My appendix burst when I was 32. 100 years ago, I was dead. In 1999, I was in the hospital for about 36 hours and home for about 10 days. Wherever and whenever modern public health methods and medicine is introduced very predictable things happen--infant mortality drops, life span extends, women gain more power over their reproductive choices and thus their lives.

5) We need to reset expectations. I think we need to recognize that we need a more locally based economy. That may mean that in some places--Salt Lake City, for instance--you just can't get lobster. Maybe in Alaska, you just can't get beef. That means a return to regional cuisines.


The thing is, we may not have a choice in the matter. The die may already have been cast and Nature may impose limits we were neither intelligent enough or wise enough to put on ourselves.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Based on your / Arthur Schlesinger Jr's definition of an American...well, I am an American. Except that I'm not and wouldn't want anybody to confuse me with one (the reason for this is probably 60% because I think that the US isn't a great place and 40% because I want everybody to know that I'm Canadian.)

I think that someone like me views a certain type of person as American BECAUSE OF people like Sarah Palin and -their- ideas of what it is to be an American. Palin has her idea of a white, christian, homey American archetype and views that as something positive. People from outside of the US (that would be me) hear/see Palin and because her and people like her are SO GODDAMN LOUD we begin to also see the white, christian, homey American archetype - but we do not view it as something positive.

And in the case of Canadians, I think that both nations are defined more by an ideal than by an ethnicity or religion. I think that the three Anglophone daughter-nations of England are all, more or less, in the same boat with America and Canada being the most dramatic. We are products--in ways that, say, a German may not be--of the English and Scottish Enlightenment. The fact that so many of us hold so loosely to nationalism is one symptom of what I'm talking about. Sure, the Star Spangled Banner can make me choke up, but I’m basically neutral about the flag. The Constitution, on the other hand, I hold dear with a feeling that borders on the religious. Flawed as it is, incomplete as it is, I still think it is a remarkable document, a crowning achievement not just of Europe but of humanity. This is what makes me an American--as I've told people who are far more jingoistic than I am "when I was in the military, I didn't take an oath to the flag nor did I take an oath to whatever temporary occupant was living in the White House. I took an oath to the Constitution. To me America is two really important things--her people and her laws. The land is nice but take the people and the laws, move them to Central Europe and we would still have America. Take away the people and the laws and whatever remained on this soil would not be America.

Cheers
Aj

[QueenofSmirks]

... The law is in force, you are feeling the full effect of the law, do you think it helps to know that your neighbor doesn't support it?

Cheers
Aj


No, I don't think it helps to know my neighbor doesn't support it. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the assumption by some that somehow we (AZ residents) should claim the hatred and discrimination in this state just because we live here. I don't think that helps either.

[Nat]

No, I don't think it helps to know my neighbor doesn't support it. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the assumption by some that somehow we (AZ residents) should claim the hatred and discrimination in this state just because we live here. I don't think that helps either.



Somebody said you should *claim* hatred and discrimination in your state? I don't understand.

[The_Lady_Snow]

No, I don't think it helps to know my neighbor doesn't support it. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the assumption by some that somehow we (AZ residents) should claim the hatred and discrimination in this state just because we live here. I don't think that helps either.




Denying that it IS happening around is claiming it. How can you NOT know what is happening in a State that wanted to enforce racial profiling.

How does one not take a stand?? Does privilege allow this?

I am confused how one can not care or is it the "eh, it's not me they are targeting so.. Whatever"

[QueenofSmirks]

Denying that it IS happening around is claiming it. How can you NOT know what is happening in a State that wanted to enforce racial profiling.

How does one not take a stand?? Does privilege allow this?

I am confused how one can not care or is it the "eh, it's not me they are targeting so.. Whatever"

Well, I don't know who your comments are referring to... it certainly isn't me! And since none of what you said describes me, I really can't answer.

[The_Lady_Snow]

:wallbreak:

I'm going to bed totes!

[Nat]

New law jeopardizes ethnic studies classes (http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/Ethnic-studies-law-110978594.html)

A month from now, a new law will jeopardize ethnic studies within the Tucson Unified School District. Sunday, one group that calls itself neutral is calling for a review of these classes.

Attorney General Elect Tom Horne, spent the latter part of his career as the Arizona schools chief taking aim at TUSD Mexican-American studies.

Then came the passage of a law banning the courses based off the idea they promote racism. Now a group called Tucsonans United for a Sound District wants the classes reviewed by an independent panel.

[Nat]

I was talking about the assumption by some that somehow we (AZ residents) should claim the hatred and discrimination in this state just because we live here. I don't think that helps either.



Hi again.

This sentence doesn't make a lot of sense to me because I don't know what you mean by the word, "claim." Without further information, Snowy's interpretation was the closest to how I read your words too - which is why I asked for clarification.

Perhaps you could pick the sentence below that is most similar to your meaning - or clarify in your own words? I would really appreciate it.

A. Some people think Arizona residents should embrace hatred and discrimination just because they live in Arizona, and I disagree.

B. Some people think Arizona residents should acknowledge that hatred and discrimination exist in Arizona, and I don't think Arizona residents should be expected to do so.

C. Some people think Arizona residents should stop denying that hatred and discrimination exist in Arizona, but I disagree.

D. Some people think all Arizona residents are in support of racism and discrimination, and that's not true.

E. _____________________________________

[DomnNC]

I could be wrong but my interpretation of what QoS is saying is:

That a lot of people are assuming that ALL people that live in Arizona surely must be haters, discriminators and in favor of the racial profiling when that's not true. She doesn't believe just because she lives there that she should take on the responsibility of blame in how other people who live there choose to believe and what they are in favor of.

She's saying she's not in favor of it.

I could be totally wrong, lol, wouldn't be the first time.

[Nat]

I could be wrong but my interpretation of what QoS is saying is:

That a lot of people are assuming that ALL people that live in Arizona surely must be haters, discriminators and in favor of the racial profiling when that's not true. She doesn't believe just because she lives there that she should take on the responsibility of blame in how other people who live there choose to believe and what they are in favor of.

She's saying she's not in favor of it.

I could be totally wrong, lol, wouldn't be the first time.

If that's what she's saying, I don't know where she's getting that from. Did somebody in this thread say ALL people that live in Arizona surely must be haters?

[DomnNC]

Laughs, too late for me ... perhaps I should have said that some believe ALL Arizona residents (regardless if that is how you believe/support or not) should assume the responsibility of blame for the haters, discriminators and racial profiling. She's not responsible for the blame of say her neighbor if he's a hater, discriminator or in favor of racial profiling just because she lives there as well. She's not one of them (just because she lives there) nor will she carry the burden of blame for their beliefs/actions.

Sorry, I even reread that last one. :|

[katsarecool]

And some people just do not watch the news or keep up with current events either. So it is entirely possible to not have a clue about what is happening in AZ. I do not fault anyone for not keeping up with the news. They have their own reasons. One of my children cannot bear to watch the news and does not keep up on current events. She says the news triggers some fears inside from childhood; all the sad and tragic news. This does not mean that she does not care about people who are hurt and harmed at all though because she does. She has a lot on her own plate with a large family (three teenage girls, two sons one with special needs), job situations for her and her husband along with financial woes as well. I get that. Not happy about it but it is her choice.

[MsDemeanor]

Then there are the AZ Death Panels. Yes, Sarah P., they do exist, and they are headed by heartless, soulless, all that matters is money and fuck the human consequences Republicans.

AZ recently cut funding for certain types of transplants. 98 people in the state are affected by this policy change, plus the state lost millions in Medicare matching dollars as a result of this decision. The numbers that I have are $5M cut for transplants resulted in $15M lost in matching funds, but I haven't had time to verify the information. Keith Olbermann highlighted two families affected by this, including one man who was being prepped for the transplant operation when he was told the the funding for his surgery had been pulled.

Now, someone has died. linkyloo (http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1359593) Brewer refuses to call a special legislative session to deal with the matter.

[MsDemeanor]

And some people just do not watch the news or keep up with current events either. So it is entirely possible to not have a clue about what is happening in AZ.
As long as they don't vote, that's fine. I have a serious beef with low-information voters.

[katsarecool]

As long as they don't vote, that's fine. I have a serious beef with low-information voters.So do I. Having learned from the eight years of the Bush Adm. and grinding my teeth on that very issue.

[QueenofSmirks]

I could be wrong but my interpretation of what QoS is saying is:

That a lot of people are assuming that ALL people that live in Arizona surely must be haters, discriminators and in favor of the racial profiling when that's not true. She doesn't believe just because she lives there that she should take on the responsibility of blame in how other people who live there choose to believe and what they are in favor of.

She's saying she's not in favor of it.

I could be totally wrong, lol, wouldn't be the first time.

Thank you, your interpretation is spot on! (Both of them! LOL) :)

Not only are we assumed to be haters, but we are also apparently to blame because we choose to live here, and how dare we be a part of this hatred while living a life of luxury, ignoring what's going on around us and basically just being all around despicable human beings, we should be ashamed of ourselves. Apparently because I'm not in favor of a boycott, (because I believe it will do more harm overall, not because I would somehow be negatively affected by it), that makes me one of "them".
Weird.

[betenoire]

If that's what she's saying, I don't know where she's getting that from. Did somebody in this thread say ALL people that live in Arizona surely must be haters?

No, nobody in the thread said that. :)

However - the majority of the people that live in Arizona must be. The evidence of this is easy enough to find, that awful Brewer woman got elected this November (evidence 1) and public opinion polls show that the majority of Arizona residents are in favour of her shitty bill (evidence 2).

So while OBVIOUSLY the people responding to this thread DO GET that not every single person who lives in AZ is a racist douchebag - the fact remains that THE STATE of Arizona (the State being Arizona's politicians, policies, police force, people in charge and popular vote) IS indeed racist. That is the name that Arizona has made for itself.

It's like when I say "America is a bully". I obviously don't think that Nat, Aj, Snow, or my American spouse are bullies - but I DO think that America (her military reach, her foreign policy, her talking heads, her most vocal voters) IS a bully. That is the place that she's carved out for herself in the world.

[QueenofSmirks]

And some people just do not watch the news or keep up with current events either. So it is entirely possible to not have a clue about what is happening in AZ. I do not fault anyone for not keeping up with the news. They have their own reasons. One of my children cannot bear to watch the news and does not keep up on current events. She says the news triggers some fears inside from childhood; all the sad and tragic news. This does not mean that she does not care about people who are hurt and harmed at all though because she does. She has a lot on her own plate with a large family (three teenage girls, two sons one with special needs), job situations for her and her husband along with financial woes as well. I get that. Not happy about it but it is her choice.


You took the words right out of my mouth, so to speak. This was actually almost exactly what I intended on coming here to say, but I got derailed by my own earlier posts LOL

[QueenofSmirks]

No, nobody in the thread said that. :)

However - the majority of the people that live in Arizona must be. The evidence of this is easy enough to find, that awful Brewer woman got elected this November (evidence 1) and public opinion polls show that the majority of Arizona residents are in favour of her shitty bill (evidence 2).



Actually, that only proves that the majority of people who VOTED are in favor of her and her b.s. And opinion polls -- please. They only accurately reflect the people who ANSWER them, not the population as a whole.

[betenoire]

Actually, that only proves that the majority of people who VOTED are in favor of her and her b.s. And opinion polls -- please. They only accurately reflect the people who ANSWER them, not the population as a whole.



People who do not vote are complacent and deserve everything that they get. :)

[Glenn]

YouTube - POLICE STATE - TSA, Homeland Security & Tampa Police Set Up Nazi Checkpoints At Bus Stations
Viper team security check points at Tampa area bus stations.
The inter viewed agent admitted they were looking for cash. They get to keep whatever they find, plus they make a little off of illegal immigrants they catch as a bonus. http://www.thegeogroupinc.com
click link and ceo talks to you about how illegals make money for geo group.

[QueenofSmirks]

People who do not vote are complacent and deserve everything that they get. :)

Interesting blanket statement. Fortunately, I don't see everything as "black and white" as this.

[Julie]

From the eyes of a 9 year old little girl living in Mexico.
I received this during our art contest - Theme: May Peace Prevail On Earth.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo187/sheisdesign/arizonalaw_childseyes.jpg?t=1291127773

This is how children see Arizona. Pretty telling and really scary. And we know, children are always honest.

[dreadgeek]

No, I don't think it helps to know my neighbor doesn't support it. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the assumption by some that somehow we (AZ residents) should claim the hatred and discrimination in this state just because we live here. I don't think that helps either.



QoS:

I'm not sure why you think that anyone is saying that you should claim the hatred or discrimination just because of your locale. I DO think that it is incumbent upon people in Arizona to be aware of what is happening (but that is because I think it's incumbent upon all citizens to be aware of what is happening) but that is quite a far cry from saying you should claim that hatred.

It seems to me that the AZ residents are taking some of this overly personal. No one is saying that you or Cody are personally in favor of this law--unless and until you give us reason to believe that you are. The people who wrote this law are responsible. The people who voted for Ms. Brewer or any other politician who supports it are responsible. Anyone who didn't vote is responsible. However, I think that we Americans are too quick--far too quick--to try to get out from under our responsibilities. As Chris Hedges, a former reporter for the NY Times, points out in his latest book "The Death of the Liberal Class" between 2000 and 2004 Americans could be forgiven for the wrong-doing of the Bush administration but once the 2004 election happened and he was re-elected (and clearly he was) we the American people endorsed his policies. Does that mean that every single American did? No, but it doesn't have to for us--as Americans--to be responsible for what was done in our name.

As far as the boycott is concerned I think it is appropriate to the degree that it is possible (for example, our dog requires a special diet and the one place we can get the wet food that doesn't make him break out is available at Petsmart--so we don't really have any choice in the matter). That doesn't mean that you should join a boycott (and it would be impractical for you to do so since you live in Arizona) but a boycott may be effective. It may not hurt your governor but it WILL hurt her well-heeled sponsors and puppet-masters who own hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc. Eventually, they will put the pressure on her to repeal the law if they feel sufficient economic pain.

I think the most effective move, however, is for Hispanics to leave the state. If the majority of Arizonans don't want them there (and a majority of voting Arizonans have given either their explicit or tacit approval to SB 1070) then they should leave. There is historical precedent for this. Google "The Great Migration" or, better yet, get hold of the book 'The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration' by Isabel Wilkerson. I suggest this because, what a lot of (white) Americans don't know is that in the middle third of the last century blacks left the Deep South in a flood. This actually had a number of effects on the culture and economy of the South which, in turn, led to the southern states progressing on racial issues. My parents left the South at the very tail end (1968) because they didn't want their kids raised in a part of the country where we would be considered only marginally human. I think it would, in fact, serve Arizona right if in 5 years finding a Hispanic resident in that state was like finding an unicorn.

Again, let me make it clear that I’m *not* saying you or Cody or any other Arizona resident here wants Hispanics out of the state. I am saying that if Hispanics are not welcome, it would behoove them to leave and to do so sooner rather than later.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Laughs, too late for me ... perhaps I should have said that some believe ALL Arizona residents (regardless if that is how you believe/support or not) should assume the responsibility of blame for the haters, discriminators and racial profiling. She's not responsible for the blame of say her neighbor if he's a hater, discriminator or in favor of racial profiling just because she lives there as well. She's not one of them (just because she lives there) nor will she carry the burden of blame for their beliefs/actions.

Sorry, I even reread that last one. :|

I'm curious, at what point are bystanders complicit? Is there any point? Or is it the case that provided that you never pull the trigger yourself, even if you just stand by and watch it repeatedly, you're still not in the least bit complicit?

Cheers
Aj

[DomnNC]

Hmm, I didn't realize that only people who reside in Arizona could make a comment, you yourself do not live in Arizona but you have made plenty of comments concerning the situation as well. I saw what I perceived to be a lack of understanding in what someone was saying, which by the posts being made was a clear indication of such so I posted what I thought the poster was trying to say, which if you see her comment, I was correct. I didn't come here to beat on some people like others have by their comments whether anyone intended to do so or not, it is still being done with the blanket statements being made about people residing in Arizona as a whole.

[Novelafemme]

http://http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130833741

On my way to class right now but wanted to share this link (if it hasn't already been shared previously)...some scary shit!

[dreadgeek]

Hmm, I didn't realize that only people who reside in Arizona could make a comment, you yourself do not live in Arizona but you have made plenty of comments concerning the situation as well. I saw what I perceived to be a lack of understanding in what someone was saying, which by the posts being made was a clear indication of such so I posted what I thought the poster was trying to say, which if you see her comment, I was correct. I didn't come here to beat on some people like others have by their comments whether anyone intended to do so or not, it is still being done with the blanket statements being made about people residing in Arizona as a whole.

Huh? Who is saying that only people who reside in Arizona can comment? Where is this coming from? The good people of Arizona elected, with full knowledge of where they stood, politicians who support a law that is an invitation to racial profiling. They also elected a governor who told blatant lies about beheadings in the desert as a means of creating the impression that Hispanic immigrants are a grave security threat. Now, did every single Arizonan do vote for Ms Brewer? No. That doesn't change the fact that she was elected in a vote that was, as far as I am aware, was free and fair and would pass UN muster.

At some point, Americans have to recognize that we ARE, in point of fact, responsible for what happens in our nation and even if we do not see ourselves as responsible that doesn't mean that others are obliged to enable our illusions. Were ordinary Germans--not SS, not SA, not Gestapo, not Wehrmacht just the average tinker, tailor, baker, etc.--responsible for what happened in their country between 1933 and 1945? Yes, as a matter of fact they were. Were ordinary Russians responsible for what happened in their country between 1917 and 1990? Yes, again, they were. Are ordinary Americans responsible for what happens here? Yes, we are. If someone voted for Ms Brewer, they gave their tacit approval of her policies including SB 1070. If someone didn't vote at all, they gave their tacit vote to Ms Brewer (because in not voting you vote for whomever ends up winning by default). If someone voted against Ms Brewer they clearly registered their protest.

This seems relatively straight-forward. We actually ask very little in way of civic participation in this country. The only thing you *have* to do is pay taxes and serve on juries. That's it. You don't have to vote. You don't have to do any kind of national service--military or civil. One result of this is that we have a stunningly unengaged polis and our politics actually reflect that. SOLELY on the basis of her paranoid and fantastic lies about beheadings in the desert, Ms Brewer should have been humiliated at the voting booth but that's not what happened. She won and did so handily. Why? Because only 47% (rounding up, the actual number is 46.494%) of registered voters actually bothered to vote. What's sad is that for a mid-term election that's a little above the national average! What's pathetic about it is that there was no real danger to voting. In Iraq, in 2005, 2006, 2007 elections were held and each year there were real and credible threats to people who turned out to vote. Car bombs were a daily part of life in the major Iraqi cities and still people turned out to vote. Their voting percentage was in the upper 80% range! We, as Americans, should be deeply embarrassed by this. A nation with NO democratic tradition, under credible--hell likely!--threat of violence manages to turn out almost their entire eligible voting population. Our nation, with a 200 year democratic tradition and no credible threat of violence can't turn out half. And we wonder why our nation is so screwed up.

[DomnNC]

The point is that the people who reside in Arizona who posted in this thread have said, more than once, they voted and they DID NOT vote for her or her policies and they feel like they are still being slammed and grouped in with those who DID vote for her by all the "blanket" statements being made about people who reside in Arizona as a whole. They registered their protest with their vote as you just said but are still being held accountable for every other Arizonians vote. Just because they believe that a boycott is not the answer for their state does not make them bad people or complicit in what has happened by other peoples votes.

Btw, I am a registered voter and I do vote in every election. You can't take a gun to other complacent voters heads and make them go to the polls. I agree that a lot of voters need a swift kick in the ass to get to the polls. There could have been a different outcome in Arizona if every registered voter did go to the polls but it is not our place to heap condemnation and group blame upon those that in fact did go vote and vote against the current administration there thereby registering their protest.

[dreadgeek]

The point is that the people who reside in Arizona who posted in this thread have said, more than once, they voted and they DID NOT vote for her or her policies and they feel like they are still being slammed and grouped in with those who DID vote for her by all the "blanket" statements being made about people who reside in Arizona as a whole.

Except people keep bending over backwards to make it clear that they aren't saying that the people HERE believe the law to be just. Now, I am curious if a boycott and/or mass exodus of Hispanics is NOT the answer, what is? Let's grant, for the moment, that a boycott isn't the way to deal with this? What then? Obviously we know how this turns out at the ballot box--the backers, proponent and apologists for this law win. So if money continues to pour into Arizona then there is no economic consequence to be paid for this law. So politicians who backed the law pay no political price and the state, as a whole, pays no economic price. At that point what is there to discourage Arizona from passing an even more draconian law?

That pretty much leaves the mass exodus of Hispanics which I still hold would probably be the *most* effective form of protest. At first, one might witness the spectacle of Arizonans singing "na na na, na na na, hey hey hey, good-bye" and that would probably go through the wave. After that, well, it starts to have an economic effect. Suddenly there are a lot fewer people doing everything from washing dishes to teaching classes. As I said yesterday, when they leave their dollars go with them. Tax revenues decline. The tourism and hospitality sectors of the economy will be hit particularly hard as they lose cheap labor.

I get it that the Arizonans don't want any of these things to happen to their state. I fully understand that. However, it makes no sense to suggest that those either targeted by this law or horrified by it simply shrug our collective shoulders in order to avoid hurting someone's feelings.


They registered their protest with their vote as you just said but are still being held accountable for every other Arizonians vote.

No, they are not. They are choosing to take a very justified critique of this law and the Arizonan politics that birthed it in a personal fashion. I'll try--again--to explain the distinction.

"In 1940, America was a fundamentally racist country."

Now, according to the logic being deployed here, I have just claimed that every single American living in the borders of this country in December 1940 was a racist. I have insulted--personally--every single American living at that time. Except I haven't. My parents were alive in 1940, both of them turned 18 that year. They were the *targets* of racism but they were not, themselves, racism. Does that mean that America wasn't a fundamentally racist country? No, the statement still stands because the *laws* of America mandated segregation in public accommodation, the military, etc. One can make the observation that America was a racist nation in 1940 and *still* not be saying something that any given person alive in 1940 was a racist. Likewise, one can say that Arizona has passed a law that is an invitation to racial profiling without saying that any given Arizonan is in favor of racial profiling.


Just because they believe that a boycott is not the answer for their state does not make them bad people or complicit in what has happened by other peoples votes.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that the good people of the Birmingham Bus Company did not think that the Birmingham Bus Boycott was the answer for the problem of blacks sitting in the back of the bus. I'm going to also suggest that the good people of the Woolworth's company didn't think that a boycott of the Woolworth's lunch counter was the right way to deal with that manifestation of segregation. The targets of a boycott NEVER think that it's a good idea--that's kind of the whole point of a boycott is to motivate people to change the conditions that precipitate the boycott.

However, I'm all ears. If a boycott isn't the answer and a mass exodus of Hispanics isn't the answer, what is?


Btw, I am a registered voter and I do vote in every election. You can't take a gun to other complacent voters heads and make them go to the polls. I agree that a lot of voters need a swift kick in the ass to get to the polls. There could have been a different outcome in Arizona if every registered voter did go to the polls but it is not our place to heap condemnation and group blame upon those that in fact did go vote and vote against the current administration there thereby registering their protest.

So at what point--if any--are people responsible for what happens in their locality? To use another (fairly) recent example; there used to be a country called Yugoslavia. When the Soviet empire dissolved, Yugoslavia broke up. What followed was, by even the most strict definition, a genocide of Bosnian Muslims and Croats by Serbs. I'll spare the gory details but suffice to say that in just one city, Sarajevo, which was under siege for over a year, atrocities took place daily. Serbs who were NOT involved, who wore no uniform, knew of the atrocities and did nothing to stop them. Using current American zeitgeist logic, the only people who should feel even the most trivial pang of guilt are those who pulled the trigger.

Cheers
Aj

[apretty]

my expert opinion:

i lived there, i still own a house there and i still think boycotting the beautiful state of arizona is a great idea. though, moving away is probably safest if you present 'brown' in any way.

[dreadgeek]

So if migrating out worked in one state, the rest will think to do it in all the states. thereby making asian and latino folks migrate into Europe turning Europe brown, and in time, migrating back again?:blink:Coo-Coo

No, Popcorn. There's a reason why I suggested that people read about the Great Migration here in America. Blacks left the Southern states in *droves*. Huge numbers of blacks left the South and moved West and North--this is why Oakland and Detroit have such huge black communities. They didn't before WW II but by 1970 they were gigantic black communities there. So we've already run this experiment and have some idea how this plays out in the real world.

Blacks didn't migrate to Europe as you suggest, we stayed in the United States and, in fact, it DID have an effect on the economy of the South. Was it the nail in the coffin? No. However, labor became a bit more expensive because blacks *were* the cheap labor and as some of that labor left, it had a deleterious effect on the economy of those Southern states. It is instructive to note that we could get there without ALL blacks having left the South (which I'm sure you would try to suggest my argument requires). A similar pressure would be at play with a mass exodus of Hispanics out of Arizona.

Again--because you, popcorn, have a tendency to read what you want to read and not what is written--the economic impact of an exodus does NOT require the people leaving the country and we've already run the real-world experiment. So unless you are going to try to argue that somehow, while blacks were able to find work and build lives in other states but Hispanics will not, your argument *completely* collapses under its own weight.

Cheers
Aj

[DomnNC]

"I get it that the Arizonans don't want any of these things to happen to their state. I fully understand that. However, it makes no sense to suggest that those either targeted by this law or horrified by it simply shrug our collective shoulders in order to avoid hurting someone's feelings."

So am I to assume that since you are so horrified by it and any other person who is horrified by it that does NOT live in Arizona are going to leave the comfy confines of their homes where this isn't an issue, move to Arizona and start a grass roots movement to get Brewer and her cronies tossed from office in the next election?

We can all raise our collective voices and scream at the injustice of it from whatever state we live in, does it do any good? NO, because the people in Arizona were elected by the majority and they will be in office until they are ousted on their rear ends by the said same collective majority!

And no, the comments here have not been "bend over backwards" to ensure that the posters from Arizona have not made to feel like they are being targeted by these posts.
Cody stated he didn't vote for Brewer, some took exception to some of his terminology, Cody even stated he was half Native-American with blue eyes. Another poster implied with their post that he was lying about it. Did I see you as a moderator take that person to task, did another moderator step in and say, whoa wait a minute, that was a little unjust and unfair? NO that was not done, what was done was more criticism was hurled his way because of wording that he used even after he stated time and again that he wasn't a supporter of this policy, so much so to the point that he just disengaged altogether. What if he was a supporter, the amount of criticism heaped upon him lost him from the discussion when something could have been said to persuade him to change his vote at the poll in the next election was lost. That is never a good thing.
He mentioned "the look" and was taken to task for using those words, forgive me but isn't racial profiling all about "a look". If they look to be Hispanic, black, purple, yellow, green whathave you what racial profiling is all about? It was completely unnecessary as far as I'm concerned.

People seem to forget that during these economic hard times that some people cannot afford television, radios, newspapers, or treks into a nearby larger city where one may learn of political activism and what is going on in their own back yard. Not all people are as educated as you, as I, as the person to your left or to your right, that does not give us the right to take an air of superiority over any one when there is a discussion going on. And yes, that is the road this discussion is taking, making some feel less than when there is no need for that when they have stated they did NOT vote for these idiots and they refuse to have their feet held to the fire with the majority who did.

Please, keep the topic to the current situation, I'm fully aware of past atrocities of people before my time and your time. It just muddles, confuses and blurs the lines of the current situation.

So if those that are so indignant and horrified about the situation perhaps as I said you should pack up the comfy confines of your current home, move to Arizona and start a grass roots effort to oust the current political regime, however you should be prepared to move to the other 22 states who are NOW also considering adopting legislation similiar to Arizona's to deal with the influx of illegal immigrants.

I don't know what the answer is and I'm pretty sure you don't either, no one does, otherwise the situation would have already been corrected. I do know that bankrupting a state is not the answer, it only creates a whole host of other issues.

I've had my say about when now, all I did was happen upon the thread and was kinda taken aback by some of the commentary directed towards other members of this site and misinterpretation of a post.

:byebye:

[apretty]

wtf, mexicans didn't bankrupt the state.

and that was pretty much me blowing my entire load--i don't really have a lot of energy/extra time to argue over blatant racism (which you know, as i write that statement--sounds pretty fucking privileged of me to 'opt out' and i am owning that, this conversation makes me tired.)

[The_Lady_Snow]

There are NO green, purple, or pink people targeted by this heinous law.

I as a traveler in Az had to lie (left my purse in SD) about my status in this country. I used my tricks and made myself look white.

I get offend with good right when white folk describe POC with terms such as "that look"


If you are deflecting for Cody by saying he can't afford the TV he clearly haz interwebs! He could of read ALL THE FACTS posted in this thread


How one can live in denial I can't understand, wait I
can. White skin gives one privileges I'll never get;)

True story

[Corkey]

Did you know that other states are looking at SB1070 as a template for enacting this racist law? No? Well the state I live in is and so is Texas and New Jersey. It has nothing to do with the boarder being secure, it is racism pure and simple. So I will rail against it in AZ in PA in TX in NJ and any other state that even thinks this is a good idea. It isn't it is RACISM.

[Greyson]

Did you know that other states are looking at SB1070 as a template for enacting this racist law? No? Well the state I live in is and so is Texas and New Jersey. It has nothing to do with the boarder being secure, it is racism pure and simple. So I will rail against it in AZ in PA in TX in NJ and any other state that even thinks this is a good idea. It isn't it is RACISM.

Right now in California there is a petition being circulated state wide to gather enough signatures to put a California version of SB1070 on the ballot in the next election cycle.

[Novelafemme]

Right now in California there is a petition being circulated state wide to gather enough signature to put a California version of SB1070 on the ballot in the next election cycle.

What do you think the outcome will be, Grey?

[dreadgeek]

"I think the most effective move, however, is for Hispanics to leave the state. If the majority of Arizonans don't want them there (and a majority of voting Arizonans have given either their explicit or tacit approval to SB 1070) then they should leave. There is historical precedent for this. Google "The Great Migration" or, better yet, get hold of the book 'The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration' by Isabel Wilkerson. I suggest this because, what a lot of (white) Americans don't know is that in the middle third of the last century blacks left the Deep South in a flood. This actually had a number of effects on the culture and economy of the South which, in turn, led to the southern states progressing on racial issues. My parents left the South at the very tail end (1968) because they didn't want their kids raised in a part of the country where we would be considered only marginally human. I think it would, in fact, serve Arizona right if in 5 years finding a Hispanic resident in that state was like finding an unicorn.

Again, let me make it clear that I’m *not* saying you or Cody or any other Arizona resident here wants Hispanics out of the state. I am saying that if Hispanics are not welcome, it would behoove them to leave and to do so sooner rather than later."

While I haven't read the book you speak of, AJ, the more logistical facts behind a mass exodus are what float through my mind when pondering your recommendations. In a very simplistic manner I can say that I totally agree with the notion of not remaining somewhere I am not welcomed. Whether that be a restaurant, movie theatre, store...etc...if the majority has spoken and my presence is viewed as less than desirable, I would exit stage left post haste. However, if this departure meant a complete lifestyle change by way of finding a new home, job, community, and support system, I might take a moment’s pause. For me, a single mom raising two kids and also going to school/working outside the home full time, relocating would be a HUGE deal. The very thought of it makes my stomach hurt. Simple economics would prevent 99.9% of Arizona's Latino populous from relocating to more welcoming environments. Moving is expensive. Many of the Latino families who reside in Tucson have been here for the better part of a century - "legally" or not. They own homes built up along the Santa Cruz River. They have small businesses in South Tucson that have been family run for generations. I can't speak for the bulk of other races and cultures, but the Latino community here in Tucson is vast...and tightly knit! Rarely have I seen the quiet strength of a culture withstand the constant beat-downs perpetrated by white society as I have the Latino population this side of the border. It is something one truly needs to witness first hand in order to appreciate. No newspaper article or television account can lend it proper accolades. I am not saying that Latino's differ from African American's in terms of racial disparity...please don't infer that...what I am trying to say from purely an outside/Caucasian/privileged perspective is that the Latino community should not only NOT have to leave Arizona in order to effect change, but cannot simply because it is not economically feasible.

Here's the thing, the situation for large numbers of blacks who left Mississippi or Louisiana or Alabama, the situation was not much better. People don't pick up and leave for a better life if a best life can be had where they are. Would some people be left behind? Yes. Some of my cousins, aunties and uncles were left behind when my parents pulled up stakes and moved us to California. Now, as it turns out, my parents were in much better position to do so than some of my other relatives who also made the trek in that my parents, by 1968, had advanced degrees and were able to find professorships at universities in Sacramento. My uncles who moved did so because of they were in the military and pretty much just stayed put in the city they mustered out of. I'm not being flip when I talk about leaving. I recognize the hurdles to relocating. But Arizona is going down a path that rarely ends well. I've said it on this thread before and I'll say it now---you could not pay me to be either Hispanic or Muslim in the United States right now. If you promised me riches beyond the dreams of avarice I would take the money and buy me and mine the first ticket elsewhere.

Arizona has passed SB 1070 and is about to put into effect rules that will make teaching any kind of positive history of Mexican-Americans just this side of impossible. Oklahoma has passed a law (blocked by the courts, the last, best friend of minorities in this nation) that is a 'pre-emptive strike' against Sharia law being made legal in that state. Arizona is ALSO considering a law that would require any teachers in the statewide system to not have 'thick' accents. We've seen this movie before--each law, in itself, seems pretty innocuous particularly if one isn't on the receiving end of its effects.

Have to have your birth certificate or other proof of citizenship on you at all times (absent a national ID card)? Sure, why not? Nothing to fear if you're in the country legally, right? Can't teach any subject matter that would create racial animosity or feed a sense of racial grievance? Again, not a big deal right? I mean, who CARES how California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas came to be part of the U.S.? We're all Americans now, right? Can't teach if you have a 'heavy' accent? Well, math is a difficult enough subject without having to deal with the teacher's accent. Can't implement sharia law? What's the big deal? This is America, we already have laws! (the fact that the Constitution prevents ANY religious law being applied by the government is conveniently lost). Taken in isolation none of those seem too horrible. Taken in concert, however, they start to look more and more like the first of the Nuremberg laws. Each one--particularly the first set of them--don't hint at what was coming down the track toward Germany but with the benefit of hindsight it becomes clear that they were the beginning of the horror.

[Greyson]

What do you think the outcome will be, Grey?

I think enough signatures will be collected to get it on the ballot. I don't think it will pass, but it will not be by a resounding landslide.

AJ does an excellent job in spelling it out succiently, IMO. Are we willing to give up some of our artificially low cost services and goods here in the USA?

Most of you know I am a Mexican American and I have lived in California since the age of two. This entire immigratrion thing is complex and much of it grounded in preconceived racist notions. On the other side of the coin is Mexico's long history of ignoring the basic needs of it's people. Of course this does not include their wealthy.

(Actually, the States is becoming more and more like this. Huge economic disparity between the working folks and the very rich.)

Back to California. Right now the State of California has an incoming Democratic Gov, Assembly and State Democrat majority, all state constitutional officers Democractic and two Democratic Federal Senators. I really do not hold out for much even with this. I think as the world moves forward we are creating a new paradigm. I just hope globally, nationally and locally, more will choose the high road as oppossed to greed and short sightedness.

[DomnNC]

These are the 22 states considering or drafting legislation similar to Arizona's.

Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Utah.

Let me amend this as I was not deflecting for Cody but responding to numerous comments made about "ignorant voters":

People seem to forget that during these economic hard times that some people cannot afford television, radios, newspapers, INTERNET ACCESS, COMPUTERS, or treks into a nearby larger city where one may learn of political activism and what is going on in their own back yard.

[dreadgeek]

Right now in California there is a petition being circulated state wide to gather enough signature to put a California version of SB1070 on the ballot in the next election cycle.

The Republican Party is just *determined* to immolate itself in California aren't they? Don't they get it? I'm reminded--in the fractally strange way my mind works--of an old Frantics skit called Tai Kwan Leep. At one point the sensei, who has just given an obnoxious student Ed Gruberman a 'boot to the head', is challenged by another student and asks "have you learned nothing from the lesson of Ed Gruberman"?

In this instance, Ed Gruberman is the Republican party of California and the boot to the head is the results of the midterm elections.

Because the President and the Congress are Democratic the Republicans should have done well--it's what typically happens and despite all the breathless crowing about tidal waves and never before has any sitting President lost seats in a midterm, the fact is that what happened earlier this month was pretty much in line with what has generally happened--the party of the President loses seats. Except in California.

Governor? Went to a Dem. Senatorial race? Went to the Dem. Attorney General? Went to the Dem. House races? Largely won by Dems. Hell, the Democratic party picked up seats in the California Senate! Why? Because of the Hispanic vote. Hispanics turned out in droves and voted their self-interest. They did the math, realized where the GOP wanted to go, and voted for the Dem. Same thing happened in Nevada. Harry Reid should have lost and yes, Angle was a spectacularly bad candidate but he *still* should have lost. But she ran an anti-immigrant campaign and paid the price.

The GOP seems bound and determined to make themselves a rump party. It may not happen in 2012, it could certainly happen in 2016 and by 2020 if the GOP doesn't get it that racism doesn't pay they will learn it then.

Cheers
Aj

[Novelafemme]

Canada is looking better and better all the time! Seriously!!

My brain is mush and I have a huge paper looming...love and hugs, all :)

[betenoire]

Please, keep the topic to the current situation, I'm fully aware of past atrocities of people before my time and your time. It just muddles, confuses and blurs the lines of the current situation.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

It's BEYOND silly to refuse to look at the parallels, here.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's a pretty hot topic, even without alll those things, convos happen. Public libraries were my education for YEARS. I did not own a computer till 2000, television 2002.

Public libraries, standing around listening to peers if one hears something THIS alarming I would think people would research it or shrug it off.

One is easier than the other. Unless of course it affects you or your people directly.

[DomnNC]

Public libraries is a good resource if you have one. They closed down over half the public libraries in the Char-Meck system this year due to lack of funding and it's happening everywhere, just not in Char-Meck.

Perhaps those people that were being called ignorant did listen to "peers" who were just as uninformed and hence the idiots being re-elected.

And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

Here is the part that pertained to Canada:

Canada
Accusations of racial profiling of visible minorities who accuse police of targeting them due to their ethnic background is a growing concern in Canada. In 2005, the Kingston Police Service released the first study ever in Canada which pertains to racial profiling. The study focused on in the city of Kingston, a small city where most of the inhabitants are white. The study showed that black skinned people were 3.7 times more likely to be pulled over by police than white skinned people, while Asian people were less likely to be pulled over than whites or blacks.[13] Several police organizations condemned this study and suggested more studies like this would make them hesitant to pull over visible minorities.

Although aboriginal persons make up 3.6% of Canada's population, they account for 20% of Canada's prison population. This may show how racial profiling increases effectiveness of police, or be a result of racial profiling, as they are watched more intensely than others.[14]

In 2003, Professional Boxer Kirk Johnson launched a Human Rights Inquiry against the Halifax Regional Police based on Racial Profiling. During the inquiry Johnson claimed that he had his car stopped 28 times over five years while in Halifax[citation needed]. The police service was ordered to create a scholarship in Johnson's name.

In February 2010, an investigation of the Toronto Star daily newspaper found that black people across Toronto were three times more likely to be stopped and documented by police than white people. To a lesser extent, the same seemed true for people described by police as having "brown" skin. This was the result of an analysis of 1.7 million contact cards filled out by Toronto police officers in the period 2003 - 2008.[15]"

Just because studies were only begun in 2005 as to racial profiling doesn't mean it didn't exist before then.

[Nat]

Did you know that other states are looking at SB1070 as a template for enacting this racist law? No? Well the state I live in is and so is Texas and New Jersey. It has nothing to do with the boarder being secure, it is racism pure and simple. So I will rail against it in AZ in PA in TX in NJ and any other state that even thinks this is a good idea. It isn't it is RACISM.

As a Texan I am very concerned about the spread of this crap which is one of many reasons it matters so much to me that Arizona feel the negative impact of this. If it is economically and politically rewarding, it will spread like wildfire through many more states.

[Greyson]

Public libraries is a good resource if you have one. They closed down over half the public libraries in the Char-Meck system this year due to lack of funding and it's happening everywhere, just not in Char-Meck.

Perhaps those people that were being called ignorant did listen to "peers" who were just as uninformed and hence the idiots being re-elected.

And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

Here is the part that pertained to Canada:

Canada
Accusations of racial profiling of visible minorities who accuse police of targeting them due to their ethnic background is a growing concern in Canada. In 2005, the Kingston Police Service released the first study ever in Canada which pertains to racial profiling. The study focused on in the city of Kingston, a small city where most of the inhabitants are white. The study showed that black skinned people were 3.7 times more likely to be pulled over by police than white skinned people, while Asian people were less likely to be pulled over than whites or blacks.[13] Several police organizations condemned this study and suggested more studies like this would make them hesitant to pull over visible minorities.

Although aboriginal persons make up 3.6% of Canada's population, they account for 20% of Canada's prison population. This may show how racial profiling increases effectiveness of police, or be a result of racial profiling, as they are watched more intensely than others.[14]

In 2003, Professional Boxer Kirk Johnson launched a Human Rights Inquiry against the Halifax Regional Police based on Racial Profiling. During the inquiry Johnson claimed that he had his car stopped 28 times over five years while in Halifax[citation needed]. The police service was ordered to create a scholarship in Johnson's name.

In February 2010, an investigation of the Toronto Star daily newspaper found that black people across Toronto were three times more likely to be stopped and documented by police than white people. To a lesser extent, the same seemed true for people described by police as having "brown" skin. This was the result of an analysis of 1.7 million contact cards filled out by Toronto police officers in the period 2003 - 2008.[15]"

Just because studies were only begun in 2005 as to racial profiling doesn't mean it didn't exist before then.


NC, my experience of Canada, BC and Ontario really is not based on surveys but on time spent in Canada. When I spent time in Canada, for me as a POC I did not feel, experience the same level of racism. Racism is just not as intitutionalized as here in the States. I could throw out reasons as to why this may be true, but that could be something for you and others to research.

As my mother would forever remind me when I was growing up and into my adulthood, "Two wrongs do not make a right."

[dreadgeek]

These are the 22 states considering or drafting legislation similar to Arizona's.

Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Utah.

Let me amend this as I was not deflecting for Cody but responding to numerous comments made about "ignorant voters":

People seem to forget that during these economic hard times that some people cannot afford television, radios, newspapers, INTERNET ACCESS, COMPUTERS, or treks into a nearby larger city where one may learn of political activism and what is going on in their own back yard.



Actually, beyond all these you list above I am MOST concerned that there are people in the US Congress who are seriously talking about trying to repeal the 14th Amendment. That, quite honestly, would be my breaking point. If the 14 is repealed or seriously changed, I'm gone because the ONLY thing that puts my mind at ease as I watch my country head down the track toward barbarism are the 1st and 14th Amendments.

As far as the argument re: access to information. I don't buy it. There are public libraries with newspapers and Internet access. Radios are cheap--it doesn't have to be an expensive radio. Most larger cities have free newspapers. One can go to a neighbor and say "hey, when you're done with your daily paper can I have it so I can look for a job and keep up on the world?" There are countless Americans who couldn't name three Supreme Court Justices, either of their Senators, a single representative from their state, their governor or their mayor but I guarantee you that they could tell you absolutely minute detail every last doing of some Kardashian sister or Snooki or 'the Situation' or Lindsay Lohan or what Bristol Palin wore on Dancing with the Stars. There are people living in genuine, honest-to-goodness Third World countries who will find some way to stay informed while we Americans, awash in a sea of information, will go out of our way to be blissfully, blindingly ignorant.

Now, I learned a different ethic growing up. I was taught that as a black American it was incumbent upon me to be aware of the issues of the day. "Ignorance is a luxury for white people, we negroes can't afford it" is something my mother would say to us on a regular basis (and yes, she used the term negroes because that's the term she grew up with).

And you know, I have to say that this pretense we Americans are in love with that there is no substantive difference between someone who knows about a subject and someone who doesn't is nothing short of madness.

If someone believes that global climate change isn't happening, they're wrong. It's not that they have a different opinion, they're simply *wrong*. If someone believes that Iraq had WMD in March of 2003 or had an active nuclear weapons program, they're wrong. Again, not a difference of opinion, just plain out wrong. If someone believes that evolution didn't happen or that there is some controversy within biology such that working biologists think creationism should be taught in public schools, they're wrong. If someone believes that gays and lesbians are more likely to be child molesters, or are more likely to have kids with social pathologies, they are wrong. Not holding a different opinion but demonstrably wrong in an empirically verifiable fashion.

There really ARE people who really ARE ignorant--willfully, deliberately, ignorant. Not uninformed--my granddaughter is uninformed on a whole raft of subjects but she's three. I'm talking about people who are ignorant, who hold forth on subjects expressing their opinions as if they were facts and then get bent out of shape when it is pointed out to them that their facts are entirely wrong. That is ignorance and ignorance is not something we should encourage or suffer lightly or long. Some of these ignorant people vote. I'm not saying they shouldn't have the *right* to vote but it's a mistake to pretend that an informed voter and an uninformed voter are doing the same thing--they aren't.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

[B]Public libraries is a good resource if you have one. They closed down over half the public libraries in the Char-Meck system this year due to lack of funding and it's happening everywhere, just not in Char-Meck.

Perhaps those people that were being called ignorant did listen to "peers" who were just as uninformed and hence the idiots being re-elected.

And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

No one is saying Canada is a paradise on Earth. If I make the obvious statement that the United States of America is more politically and economically stable, less violent and has more social capital in the form of voluntary associations than, say, Somalia have I made some statement that the United States is somehow without any kind of political upheaval, has no economic problems, has no violence and no social pathology? No. I've made a comparison, nothing more and nothing less. Now, empirically, the United States IS more politically and economically stable than Somalia. Somalia is in the midst of a civil war that has been going on and off for the last two decades. The country is has no functioning economy to speak of. But that does not mean that the United States is some kind of Nirvana--simply that in comparison to Somalia the USA is a much better place to live.

If I make the statement that the United States, compared to the major European economies, has some serious problems have I now reduced the USA to the status of Somalia? Again, no! I'm simply making the empirical statement that, all things considered, a baby born in Denmark will live longer, on average, than a baby born in Oregon. The former will have free education and medical care and the latter likely will not. The former will have a strong safety net under her and the latter will not. Again, I can make this comparison without stating that Denmark is a nation without problems or that the USA is something out of the Dark Ages.

Cheers
Aj

[Greyson]

Public libraries is a good resource if you have one. They closed down over half the public libraries in the Char-Meck system this year due to lack of funding and it's happening everywhere, just not in Char-Meck.

This one paragraph gives an indication of the priorities and challenges of your local government. All of us are making our priorities known. Yes, California and the SF Bay Area are not for all of us. I can tell you in my community libraries are not closing.

Okay, I am going off topic here. Stepping off of the soap box.

[DomnNC]

And there are REALLY people who live in rural areas with NO mode of transportation, no income to take a bus into a city, no income to buy a paper, no income to buy a cheap radio as you say and NO income to barely keep their family afloat and out of starvation. Do you think people who are living on the streets, pulling food out of garbage cans to feed themselves and their kids are going to be focused on what is going on in Arizona or any other state for that matter. They are trying to survive!!. If you think there are NOT those types of situations in the US then you are ignorant to their plight as well!

[DomnNC]

Laughs, I was just pointing out that ALL countries engage in racial profiling. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? It has nothing to do with babies in Denmark for crying outloud.

[Corkey]

My father fought in WW2, he did so because he knew of the certain fact that if he didn't, and men and women like him didn't fight we would all be under the heavy boot of the Nazis. There were only radios and movie theaters back then, and word of news went round the country and people were informed. In many ways they were better informed because of a little thing called community. They all knew each other, they knew their neighbors in the next town. They could inform and debate each other face to face, prove the truth of their convictions without fighting each other. My father instilled in me a since of doing the right thing, even if it made my life harder. The right thing is often hard, but it is easier than doing nothing at all to help your neighbor. My father was a bigot in many ways, my father was a hero in some, my father learned from his mistakes, he finally gave up being a bigot when his offspring proved the righteousness of his convictions.
Ignorance of others and how others live is no excuse to be a bigot. We in this country have no excuse to judge others based solely on their skin color. We also have no excuse not to be informed.

[DomnNC]

And back then people weren't afraid to sleep with their doors and windows unlocked.

[Greyson]

Laughs, I was just pointing out that ALL countries engage in racial profiling. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? It has nothing to do with babies in Denmark for crying outloud.


Yes, I agree that most countries do racial profiling whether they knowingly do it, admit to it. As for surviving, I hear your frustration. Many of us urban dwellers also deal with survival. These scenarios just do not happen all of a sudden one day, over night.

Much of what is happening in our world today is based on a long history of choices. Individual choices and collective. No one can afford to stick their heads into the sand.

[betenoire]

And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

Article...Wikipedia. Poh-TAY-toe...Poh-TAH-toe.

Well I just read an article from 1996 that says that Black people in the US are nearly 5x more likely to get pulled over than White people! Canada wins! Wait...you mean you WEREN'T trying to have a competition? My bad.

Yes of COURSE Canada has corrupt police officers. Sweet jesus, anywhere that there are police (or other people in power) there will be corruption. It is, unfortunately, human nature.

As obsessed as I am with my Canada, I have no issues with admitting that we are not without our problems. Our current PM is a fuckstick conservative from Alberta who would make us into USA-junior if he thought he could get away with it, for starters. Our unemployment rate is 7.9%. We're like the 7th (last I checked) biggest polluter in the world.

But I'll tell you what problem we don't have: We do not have on the books laws designed specifically to harm people for not being white. I do believe that is what whoever it was who brought up Canada was driving at.

[Corkey]

And back then people weren't afraid to sleep with their doors and windows unlocked.

Quite the opposite it was the depression, my Grandfather kept a loaded shot gun in the house, my father when working on the farm was always armed.

[dreadgeek]

And there are REALLY people who live in rural areas with NO mode of transportation, no income to take a bus into a city, no income to buy a paper, no income to buy a cheap radio as you say and NO income to barely keep their family afloat and out of starvation. Do you think people who are living on the streets, pulling food out of garbage cans to feed themselves and their kids are going to be focused on what is going on in Arizona or any other state for that matter. They are trying to survive!!. If you think they are NOT those types of situations in the US then you are ignorant to their plight as well!

Firstly, let us take it as read that ANYONE posting here or in any other Internet venue either has access to a public library, an Internet café, or their own computer and Internet access at home (or are using a neighbors). So this argument about people not having access to information falls apart ENTIRELY for anyone posting on the Internet.

Secondly, in 2000 I moved to Oregon and was laid off a just before the end of the year. By mid-2001 I had gone through my severance pay. By early 2002 I was maxed on my credit cards. In 2000 I made about 70K. In 2001, I made about 10K. In 2002, I made the princely sum of 11K. Now, during that time, I kept the following utilities--gas, electricity, phone and Internet. I didn't have cable TV but I kept DSL access because A) I needed to have Internet access to get a job and B) to stay informed and connected to the world.

Thirdly, I'm not talking about people living on the streets. Unless Oregon is extraordinarily blessed with the second or third highest unemployment rate in the state, there are simply NOT enough people living on the streets to explain the phenomenal level of voter ignorance and apathy. Now, it may be that other parts of the country are doing far worse than Oregon is.

Lastly, I wonder how many of these people living in rural areas could tell you about what happened on Dancing with the Stars, or Jersey Shore or some other piece of electronic, televisual confection. I'm not talking about people living on the streets. I'm talking about people who have access to television and/or radio and/or Internet and/or libraries and/or have children in public schools who couldn't name their governor, their senator, or any other elected official. I'm talking about people with access to ALL of those who couldn't name three Supreme Court Justices if their lives depended upon it. I'm talking about people who couldn't name three freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States but will jump up and lead a chant of USA! USA! USA! and tell you that the United States is number one in everything that a nation could want to be tops in at the drop of a hat. I'm talking about people who have jobs, houses, clothes on their backs, bread for their children, a television in every room but not a single damn book in their entire house. I'm talking about people who drive gigantic Chevy and Ford urban assault vehicles (SUVs) with DVD players and fantastic stereos, that get 6 miles per gallon and use that gigantic machine to drive three blocks to pick up a quart of half-and-half.

Did I say that there aren't people in the straits you describe in this country? No. I will say this, though, you're goalpost moving. You're choosing to focus on people who are homeless as if that were such a significant number that it explains the manifest ignorance and voter apathy. Although any reading of my part of this conversation should make it reasonably clear that I'm talking about people who HAVE the means but choose not to avail themselves of it.

Cheers
Aj

[Corkey]

I might make an observation here, homeless people don't vote, they can't they must have an address.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Um I've never slept with my doors and windows unlocked even with loaded fire arms in the house

[dreadgeek]

Laughs, I was just pointing out that ALL countries engage in racial profiling. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? It has nothing to do with babies in Denmark for crying outloud.

Sigh, do I have to walk you through this? Really?

One more time:



And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

Your argument is flawed because one can make a comparison between the social circumstances of any given number of nations--in this specific instance the United States and Canada--without making any *absolute* statement about those conditions. In other words, saying that racial profiling happens in the USA does NOT make any kind of statement about whether or not racial profiling happens in other countries. What's more, even if someone had said that racial profiling is MORE common in the United States than it is in Canada that does NOT change the statement to mean that racial profiling happens in the former but not the latter. It is merely to state that if, say, 1 in every thousand black Canadians is stopped for driving while black while 5 in every 1000 black Americans is stopped for the same thing that racial profiling is more common in the USA than it is in Canada.

Taking the words I quoted above to mean precisely what they appear to mean, you seem to believe that if I say X happens more in Oregon than it does in New York I am saying that X ONLY happens in New York. That is the argument I am making.

So, what do the relative fates of babies in Oregon and Denmark have to do with it? It's called an argument by analogy. What I was trying to get across and which you completely failed to grasp although I thought I'd made it clear was this:

One can make a comparison between any two nations without making ANY absolute statement about whether some phenomena occurs in some nation. So I can point out that a baby in Denmark will, on average, live longer than a baby born the same day in Oregon without being committed to the idea that because the baby born in Denmark will live longer it means that the baby in Oregon is already dead.

The logic you are deploying in the statement quoted above is that to say that the average lifespan of a Danish baby is longer than an American baby is to say that all babies in America are stillborn. I was pointing out, by way of analogy, that your logic is flawed. I'm absolutely mystified that you seemed to think that some point was being made about Danish babies.

I will freely admit that I am no Shakespeare but I think I'm a pretty decent writer and can make myself generally well understood so how you could miss the point I was making and think that somehow I was arguing something critical about Danish babies is beyond my comprehension.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

I might make an observation here, homeless people don't vote, they can't they must have an address.

Corkey:

Thank you! I was thinking that was the case. I know that's the case in Oregon because we are vote-by-mail only so you have to have a place you can receive mail in order to vote.

Cheers
Aj

[asphaltcowboi]

i have ban myself from porting in this thread.. my statements were not made clear enough for several and my abilty of speach does dont comepete.. please refain from using my name on this thread or assuming what i am or may /may not have or know. i do not know you nor you me.
thanks
cody

There are NO green, purple, or pink people targeted by this heinous law.

I as a traveler in Az had to lie (left my purse in SD) about my status in this country. I used my tricks and made myself look white.

I get offend with good right when white folk describe POC with terms such as "that look"


If you are deflecting for Cody by saying he can't afford the TV he clearly haz interwebs! He could of read ALL THE FACTS posted in this thread


How one can live in denial I can't understand, wait I
can. White skin gives one privileges I'll never get;)

True story

[The_Lady_Snow]

i have ban myself from porting in this thread.. my statements were not made clear enough for several and my abilty of speach does dont comepete.. please refain from using my name on this thread or assuming what i am or may /may not have or know. i do not know you nor you me.
thanks
cody


Um look Cody, why not call out DNC for using your name in his post? Hence my reply using your name.

As far as your "unclear" statements, this is what is odd to me, white folks can use the most colorful descriptors when it comes to POC and then brush it off as "we" misconstrued such adjectives.

So with that said, I did not assume, YOU chose to use "that look" I stand by it was not the best choice of adjectives to describe us, why? Cause it is fucking offensive, just as offensive as "wet back" "beaners" and my favorite everyone still uses no matter how many times we asked you don't

ILLEGAL.

I am not illegal, I did not come from another planet here I came from a land where MY ancestors ( I have direct bloodlines to Pancho Villa AND can prove it) roamed freely.

So please don't wag your finger at me for your name use, at least I did not use an offensive descriptor.

Thanks

[DomnNC]

And again, I was speaking mainly of the posts that were spewing forth the venom of ignorant voters, lumping people into groups, when NONE of us have any idea of their current circumstances, which I do believe I have said more than once which can't quite seem to seep into some people's brains!

Good for you that you were able to keep your computer and internet access while unemployed, some people can't, for some people that's the first thing that goes because it's NOT a necessity in order to live or to put food on their table, or keep a roof over their kids heads. They can check out classifieds thru their local paper or word of mouth if need be.

Lastly, you don't know me so don't presume to accuse me of anything, goal post moving indeed. I'm just speaking up about people who seem to think they are so much better than others because they have an education and choose to be more politically aware than others. I don't go for blanket statements or putting a group of people down because they don't choose to participate in something. Not everyone is an activist and that's OK. You seem to think that those who don't choose to be an activist are less than you or anyone else who chooses to be so. If you don't think that way then perhaps you should read back over some of your postings because it sure does come off that way.

To be honest, I don't read much of what you say because you interlace so many other things with what you are trying to say, blurring the lines, writing a book and can't seem to get to the point of the matter without losing the audience. Brevity can be your friend.

[DomnNC]

I might make an observation here, homeless people don't vote, they can't they must have an address.


Homeless people can most certainly vote! They use the address of the homeless shelter they are staying at or where they collect their checks if they are getting any!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Oh BTW the whole "more education" thing DNC

I never graduated highschool...

I couldn't I was in the streets.

I did however read ANYTHING I could get my hands on. I learned English in 3 months, and I used my library not only to get warm in but to


EDUCATE myself.

Weird huh?

[betenoire]

They can check out classifieds thru their local paper or word of mouth if need be.

So they can check out the classifieds through their local paper or word of mouth...but they can't find out about current events in those ways?

Crikey!

Your last paragraph was mean-spirited. And believe-you-me: I know mean-spirited.

[The_Lady_Snow]

And again, I was speaking mainly of the posts that were spewing forth the venom of ignorant voters, lumping people into groups, when NONE of us have any idea of their current circumstances, which I do believe I have said more than once which can't quite seem to seep into some people's brains!

Good for you that you were able to keep your computer and internet access while unemployed, some people can't, for some people that's the first thing that goes because it's NOT a necessity in order to live or to put food on their table, or keep a roof over their kids heads. They can check out classifieds thru their local paper or word of mouth if need be.

Lastly, you don't know me so don't presume to accuse me of anything, goal post moving indeed. I'm just speaking up about people who seem to think they are so much better than others because they have an education and choose to be more politically aware than others. I don't go for blanket statements or putting a group of people down because they don't choose to participate in something. Not everyone is an activist and that's OK. You seem to think that those who don't choose to be an activist are less than you or anyone else who chooses to be so. If you don't think that way then perhaps you should read back over some of your postings because it sure does come off that way.

To be honest, I don't read much of what you say because you interlace so many other things with what you are trying to say, blurring the lines, writing a book and can't seem to get to the point of the matter without losing the audience. Brevity can be your friend.


Of course you won't read AJ, then you can't just shrug things off... Her words become a screaming reality saying

"DO SOMETHING"

Your belittling AJ's posting style is a deflection of not wanting to be enlightened or educated about a very crucial issue.

It's hard DNC it's hard to do the hard, right thing.

I would ask you read AJ cause let me tell you, that's A HELLA lot of info you are dismissing because you don't like her posting style.

*sighs*

I am going to Big Lots bbl

[Corkey]

Homeless people can most certainly vote! They use the address of the homeless shelter they are staying at or where they collect their checks!

Real homeless have no access to shelters, and what checks are you talking about, welfare? In most states men don't qualify for welfare. Shelters that I know of have a first come first served and no one stays more than over night. They don't have access to a post office box, and the voters registrars office will not accept a po box as an address. Here we have homeless who in the cold weather have access to a warming shelter that only opens up during extreme cold snaps. The US government will not send ssoc checks to a shelter, no matter who's in it.

[DomnNC]

Oh BTW the whole "more education" thing DNC

I never graduated highschool...

I couldn't I was in the streets.

I did however read ANYTHING I could get my hands on. I learned English in 3 months, and I used my library not only to get warm in but to


EDUCATE myself.

Weird huh?

Not weird at all Snow, You weren't pontificating and throwing your education around like it's a banner of sorts, using it to put others down.

[DomnNC]

Real homeless have no access to shelters, and what checks are you talking about, welfare? In most states men don't qualify for welfare. Shelters that I know of have a first come first served and no one stays more than over night. They don't have access to a post office box, and the voters registrars office will not accept a po box as an address. Here we have homeless who in the cold weather have access to a warming shelter that only opens up during extreme cold snaps. The US government will not send ssoc checks to a shelter, no matter who's in it.

That may be true for your state Corkey but in NC one can most certainly use a homeless shelter as an address, maintain their right to vote and to receive correspondance from companies that may be interested in hiring them. Not all states declare the homeless cannot vote, I'm pretty sure there are no laws stipulating as such as because they are still citizens of the USA and have a constitutional right to vote.

Oh, and there are homeless who do receive a state stipend, it just isn't enough to put a roof over their head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Not weird at all Snow, You weren't pontificating and throwing your education around like it's a banner of sorts, using it to put others down.


That's just gross to say about AJ...

Not cool DNC not cool at all

[DomnNC]

So they can check out the classifieds through their local paper or word of mouth...but they can't find out about current events in those ways?

Crikey!

Your last paragraph was mean-spirited. And believe-you-me: I know mean-spirited.

Just as her condescending comment:

Sighs, do I really have to walk you thru this again, really?

That was condescending and mean spirited as well. You can't have it both ways. If you call one out then call em all out. Just because I don't agree with her on every single sentence in her postings does not make me mean spirited. It's ok to disagree on things, it's not ok to turn condescending towards another one when they don't agree with you.

I just came to this thread to state what I thought ONE person meant in a posting because it was being misconstrued and she's been taking me to task ever since implying that I somehow was complicit and agreed with Arizona's racial profiling law when that is the furtherest thing from the truth that there is. I've even stated as such.

Now ya'll can have your play space back.

[Corkey]

That may be true for your state Corkey but in NC one can most certainly use a homeless shelter as an address, maintain their right to vote and to receive correspondance from companies that may be interested in hiring them. Not all states declare the homeless cannot vote, I'm pretty sure there are no laws stipulating as such as because they are still citizens of the USA and have a constitutional right to vote.

Oh, and there are homeless who do receive a state stipend, it just isn't enough to put a roof over their head.

That isn't a shelter it is a halfway house. A shelter is just that a roof over your head for a night, they will not accept correspondance from anyone. Not saying they don't have the right to vote, but in most states one MUST have a address to sign up TO vote. Your state is doing something MOST states don't do. A stipend isn't going to put food in their bellies either. It's just enough to by cigarettes and booze, to keep people homeless.
I also don't appreciate your statements about AJ, I find it rude and you could learn something if you'd read her posts.

[DomnNC]

That's just gross to say about AJ...

Not cool DNC not cool at all

Umm, I didn't say I was talking about anyone in particular and I wasn't, that was your assumption.

[DomnNC]

That isn't a shelter it is a halfway house. A shelter is just that a roof over your head for a night, they will not accept correspondance from anyone. Not saying they don't have the right to vote, but in most states one MUST have a address to sign up TO vote. Your state is doing something MOST states don't do. A stipend isn't going to put food in their bellies either. It's just enough to by cigarettes and booze, to keep people homeless.
I also don't appreciate your statements about AJ, I find it rude and you could learn something if you'd read her posts.

Wow, that was some assumption to make! Just enough to put booze in their belly and buy cigs. That was just downright awful.

[Corkey]

Wow, that was some assumption to make! Just enough to put booze in their belly and buy cigs. That was just downright awful.

Truth often hurts.

[BullDog]

DomnNC can I ask you a simple question, what is your point? No one needs to have any advanced degree or certain level of income to understand that racial profiling is wrong.

There are more opportunities than any time in the history of the world for people to be informed of what is going on around them. Even so, I still don't understand what needs to be studied or kept up on to know that racial profiling is wrong. We're talking about how human beings should be treated here.

The state of our economy and the fact that so many people are homeless and suffering is completely unacceptable. I think we all agree on that.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Umm, I didn't say I was talking about anyone in particular and I wasn't, that was your assumption.


Dude!!

We're not stupid, subtext get used here everyday, I know you know cause you see it too and laugh about it. ;) It's cool though, no need to back peddle, it wasn't cool what you did and I do hope you read AJ, she's an ocean of information and her education she worked fucking hard to get, she should be damn proud.

Do you know how hard it is for a POC to get that kind of education???

BBL Grant is gonna divorce me if I don't go now Big Lots calls.:|<subtext face> ;) know what I'm saying?;)

[DomnNC]

DomnNC can I ask you a simple question, what is your point? No one needs to have any advanced degree or certain level of income to understand that racial profiling is wrong.

There are more opportunities than any time in the history of the world for people to be informed of what is going on around them. Even so, I still don't understand what needs to be studied or kept up on to know that racial profiling is wrong. We're talking about how human beings should be treated here.

The state of our economy and the fact that so many people are homeless and suffering is completely unacceptable. I think we all agree on that.

Excuse me bulldog, I've said time and time again that I'm against racial profiling and that it's wrong. This isn't what I've been talking about, how about going back and reading what I've said. I've been talking about lumping an entire state of people together and treating those who voted against the current administration in Arizona together and taking them to task or holding their feet to the fire blaming them or making them feel less than simply because they live in Arizona. It was offerred up that people have "bent over backwards" to make them see they weren't doing than and then adding a however blah blah blah. That simply wasn't the case. That's my point.

[Corkey]

DNC please point it out where anyone has done this. I'm a facts based kinda guy, and I haven't seen one post like you are describing. Post number would be helpful.

[BullDog]

I have read your posts and I've read other people's posts and haven't seen anyone lumping all people together.

Edit: what does this have to do with you saying people can't stay informed due to their economic circumstances?

[DomnNC]

Dude!!

We're not stupid, subtext get used here everyday, I know you know cause you see it too and laugh about it. ;) It's cool though, no need to back peddle, it wasn't cool what you did and I do hope you read AJ, she's an ocean of information and her education she worked fucking hard to get, she should be damn proud.

Do you know how hard it is for a POC to get that kind of education???

BBL Grant is gonna divorce me if I don't go now Big Lots calls.:|<subtext face> ;) know what I'm saying?;)

I never said you were stupid and I was not speaking about AJ, I was speaking about all people with an education and how they come off to people at times. You made the assumption I was speaking solely of her and that is simply not true.

I worked damn hard to get my education as well, I got it all on my own without the aid of scholarships or of my parents money. I made a choice to serve our country in order to get my education and I paid for the remainder on my own working part time and such. What's that got to do with anything?? We're talking about racial profiling, which AGAIN, I will state I am against!

[DomnNC]

DNC please point it out where anyone has done this. I'm a facts based kinda guy, and I haven't seen one post like you are describing. Post number would be helpful.

I'm not playing your game. If you are truly interested then go back and read the posts like I did.

[Corkey]

I'm not playing your game. If you are truly interested then go back and read the posts like I did.

Dude it isn't a game I assure you and I have followed this thread from page 1

[DomnNC]

I have read your posts and I've read other people's posts and haven't seen anyone lumping all people together.

Edit: what does this have to do with you saying people can't stay informed due to their economic circumstances?

Laughs, I never said that people can't stay informed due to their economic circumstances. Geez, people, get a freaking grip. Go back and read what all I've said and put it together.

There was a post where it was said that ignorant voters got what they deserved if they voted to keep the idiots in office and if the state goes bankrupt or they lose their livelihood it was their own fault for being so ignorant. Not ALL people who vote are ignorant, some don't have access to keep up with current events, it was mentioned they could talk to peer's and I said well those peers could be uninformed as well and told em to vote for the idiots, ya'll act like that can never happen!! It CAN!

[DomnNC]

Dude it isn't a game I assure you and I have followed this thread from page 1

Well if you haven't seen how some people were lumped together, taken to task because they didn't choose to use the "appropriate" wording to suit everyone on the planet then all I can say is you turned a blind eye to it to be in the popular crowd. See the previous post where it was said that ALL of Arizona deserved what they were getting because the idiots were voted back into office. Not all voted for the idiots.

[betenoire]

Below are two people who attempted to clarify that nobody is vilifying every person who lives in AZ, nor is anybody saying that every person who lives in AZ is a big mean racial profiler who is sucking on Jan Brewers dirty toes.

That should clear everything up. I even cut Aj's post down to smaller and bolded the part I was talking about specifically so you didn't have to read her entire post - I know how much you hate to do that. :)

No, nobody in the thread said that. :)

However - the majority of the people that live in Arizona must be. The evidence of this is easy enough to find, that awful Brewer woman got elected this November (evidence 1) and public opinion polls show that the majority of Arizona residents are in favour of her shitty bill (evidence 2).

So while OBVIOUSLY the people responding to this thread DO GET that not every single person who lives in AZ is a racist douchebag - the fact remains that THE STATE of Arizona (the State being Arizona's politicians, policies, police force, people in charge and popular vote) IS indeed racist. That is the name that Arizona has made for itself.

It's like when I say "America is a bully". I obviously don't think that Nat, Aj, Snow, or my American spouse are bullies - but I DO think that America (her military reach, her foreign policy, her talking heads, her most vocal voters) IS a bully. That is the place that she's carved out for herself in the world.

QoS:

I'm not sure why you think that anyone is saying that you should claim the hatred or discrimination just because of your locale. I DO think that it is incumbent upon people in Arizona to be aware of what is happening (but that is because I think it's incumbent upon all citizens to be aware of what is happening) but that is quite a far cry from saying you should claim that hatred.

It seems to me that the AZ residents are taking some of this overly personal. No one is saying that you or Cody are personally in favor of this law--unless and until you give us reason to believe that you are. The people who wrote this law are responsible. The people who voted for Ms. Brewer or any other politician who supports it are responsible. Anyone who didn't vote is responsible.

[BullDog]

No one said all voters are ignorant. You seriously are not making sense to me. I am off to work. I will catch up with the reading later.

[Corkey]

Well if you haven't seen how some people were lumped together, taken to task because they didn't choose to use the "appropriate" wording to suit everyone on the planet then all I can say is you turned a blind eye to it to be in the popular crowd. See the previous post where it was said that ALL of Arizona deserved what they were getting because the idiots were voted back into office. Not all voted for the idiots.

Post number or Quote it I don't have the time to go looking up ghosts.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I bet all them people know the names of The "Cougar Town" cast.

:|

[DomnNC]

Post number or Quote it I don't have the time to go looking up ghosts.


Laughs, like I said I'm not playing your game. I don't answer to you or anyone else for that matter. If you want to be fair minded then you'd go read yourself.

And to the posting of those 2 little posts where the bend over backwards supposedly happened. I believe you were the one that said everyone in the state of Arizona was getting what was coming to them, I could be wrong and if so I do apologize. You can bend over backwards all day long saying something but the however that quickly follows immediately negates the bending over backward part.

I have an errand to run, ya'll have fun!

[betenoire]

I believe you were the one that said everyone in the state of Arizona was getting what was coming to them, I could be wrong and if so I do apologize.

Actually, I said that people who do not vote get what they deserve, meaning they get the government that they deserve.

Insert apology here.

:)

[Corkey]

Laughs, like I said I'm not playing your game. I don't answer to you or anyone else for that matter. If you want to be fair minded then you'd go read yourself.

And to the posting of those 2 little posts where the bend over backwards supposedly happened. I believe you were the one that said everyone in the state of Arizona was getting what was coming to them, I could be wrong and if so I do apologize. You can bend over backwards all day long saying something but the however that quickly follows immediately negates the bending over backward part.

I have an errand to run, ya'll have fun!

Sorry I don't bend over for anyone, have a nice night, I still wish you would back up your accusations, but I can see that isn't going to happen.

[MsDemeanor]

To be honest, I don't read much of what you say because you interlace so many other things with what you are trying to say, blurring the lines, writing a book and can't seem to get to the point of the matter without losing the audience. Brevity can be your friend.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Strange talk coming from someone who's posts are equally long and who's arguments are all over the map. Not being willing to read the information so easily provided to you is a classic example of willful ignorance. You have an opinion that appears to not be based on facts or reason, you're sticking to it, you're not willing to engage, and you're not willing to consider facts and information being presented.

[Corkey]

I'd like to know when having an opinion based in fact becomes somehow being one of any kind of crowd. And when being articulate is seen as anything other than a good thing. Times they are a' changin'

[MsDemeanor]

Laughs, I never said that people can't stay informed due to their economic circumstances. Geez, people, get a freaking grip. Go back and read what all I've said and put it together.

Um, post 944?

And there are REALLY people who live in rural areas with NO mode of transportation, no income to take a bus into a city, no income to buy a paper, no income to buy a cheap radio as you say and NO income to barely keep their family afloat and out of starvation. Do you think people who are living on the streets, pulling food out of garbage cans to feed themselves and their kids are going to be focused on what is going on in Arizona or any other state for that matter. They are trying to survive!!. If you think there are NOT those types of situations in the US then you are ignorant to their plight as well!

Or perhaps post 932?

People seem to forget that during these economic hard times that some people cannot afford television, radios, newspapers, INTERNET ACCESS, COMPUTERS, or treks into a nearby larger city where one may learn of political activism and what is going on in their own back yard.

[Thinker]

Moderation Reminder

We've had a few posts reported of late. It seems people are reporting and then also trying to engage the offending party here in the thread; that ties our hands a little.

All that aside... Please, please, please try to communicate in a respectful way. Taking cheap shots at other members is not productive, and it's hurtful. We can all do better than that.

If you have legitimate questions or comments about this reminder, please contact me via PM.

Thanks.

[betenoire]

And now for something completely different:

RiWtsDOi86Y

[dreadgeek]

Good for you that you were able to keep your computer and internet access while unemployed, some people can't, for some people that's the first thing that goes because it's NOT a necessity in order to live or to put food on their table, or keep a roof over their kids heads. They can check out classifieds thru their local paper or word of mouth if need be. [ /quote]

The same local paper they can't afford and thus do not have when said paper has information about, oh, a bill that invites to racial profiling.

[quote]
Lastly, you don't know me so don't presume to accuse me of anything, goal post moving indeed. I'm just speaking up about people who seem to think they are so much better than others because they have an education and choose to be more politically aware than others. I don't go for blanket statements or putting a group of people down because they don't choose to participate in something. Not everyone is an activist and that's OK. You seem to think that those who don't choose to be an activist are less than you or anyone else who chooses to be so. If you don't think that way then perhaps you should read back over some of your postings because it sure does come off that way.

Fascinating. I say that you are goal post moving--something I think can be demonstrated and you accuse me of knowing you. Yet, you believe you can get in my head and tell me what I think about people who are not activists? Well, not even wrong on that score. I have said not a word about being activists. I have said quite a bit about being informed and voting neither of which I would consider activism--I would consider those citizenship. I don't think everyone has to be an activist. I have been an activist and I have had my periods where I was burnt out and didn't do activism.

However, through that time I have tried to be a citizen. We get the government and, by extension, the political structure we deserve. This isn't Iraq under Saddam Hussein nor is it Saudi Arabia under the House of Saud. Until demonstrated otherwise, this is a democratic republic and if it is screwed up then that is because we have allowed it to become so. This country does not belong to Wall Street. It doesn't belong to hedge fund managers. It belongs to ALL of the American people.

Yet pitifully few of the American people vote and thus bail out on the civic life of their nation. Is unemployment high in your area? Does it appear that it's not getting any better? That is, in no small part, because of decisions made by state, local and national governments. Are there homeless people sleeping under bridges? Why? Because, again, decisions made--largely in the area of budget priority--that create the conditions where people cannot afford housing and there are no services that can keep them off the streets. If people don't vote or if they vote in an uninformed fashion then they are as responsible for the condition of the country as every member of Congress, every mayor, every state representative, every governor, every President. If that is not true, then this isn't any kind of free society. As long as we can vote people out of office and they are compelled to relinquish power when we do so, then we have the government we deserve. If we have a government we cannot influence at all then whatever this is, it is not a democratic republic and we must then ask ourselves a different set of questions.

I like to believe that this country is still subject to the rule of law and the will of the voters enough that we can still save our country from, well, us. I would prefer people be informed voters and also give a damn enough about their country and the world they are leaving for their children to be informed about it--and by informed I mean something more substantive than the latest antics of the Kardashians or who is on American Idol.


To be honest, I don't read much of what you say because you interlace so many other things with what you are trying to say, blurring the lines, writing a book and can't seem to get to the point of the matter without losing the audience. Brevity can be your friend.

I want to make it clear here that you made this personal and I'm going to let this slide. I didn't ask for your critique although I always find writing critiques helpful. But you made this personal, not I. You'll probably keep making it personal but to the best of my ability I won't.

You have a point, I understand the point you are making but disagree with it. I don't think citizenship is activism and I think that citizenship involves trying to be informed about what is going on in your city, state, and nation. I think it has consequences whether one does or not. I think that the state of the polity reflects something about the people--if the people run the polity. Look around you, how good of a job do you think We the People have done in the last, oh, quarter century?

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

One other point (I'll try to be brief) and then I'm off to take a bath and soak with a book before diving into homework.

I think that some of what is going on here is that some of the people of color are letting slip our very justifiable frustration, fear and anger. it's bloody 2010. The kind of law that is SB 1070, the kind of regulations that are represented by the no teaching ethnic studies in Arizona, are supposed to be relics of the past. This argument is supposed to have been settled. Not in the sense that there was no racism and no institutional racism. But there is the force of a culture that was born with racism in its ideological DNA and there is racism as the *LAW*. I will probably always worry--with good reason--about driving while black. But it isn't *legal* for a cop to pull me over because I'm black. If there's nothing wrong with my car, if I can prove that I was pulled over unjustly, I can make my complaint and perhaps, depending, I might get somewhere with it. But when it is the law, there is no complaint coming.

Corkey, Snow any other POC here I'm not trying to speak for you but I think that is some of the frustration that comes out. I know that for me, there were other issues I thought we should be working on now and here it is looks like we are seeing the beginnings of Jim Crow Part II. Like I said, I was under no illusion that this was paradise but at least this kind of crap was not passed into law. I thought we were done with legalized, state-mandated, racism.

Maybe I'm wrong if I am, Corkey, Snowy et. al. let me know but when I heard the statements "this is what they deserve in Arizona" I'm hearing frustration and a sense of "no, this doesn't get to happen with no negative consequences. A price has to be paid for racism this blatant."

Cheers
Aj

[Julie]

Homeless people can most certainly vote! They use the address of the homeless shelter they are staying at or where they collect their checks if they are getting any!

Actually, this is a fallacy. Homeless people must show they have a permanent mailing address. A homeless shelter is a transient place and often times only used for a few days. Perhaps you are thinking of a Half Way House - Half Way Houses are considered permanent residences.

At least this is how it is in New York.

[Corkey]

You hit the nail on the head again AJ. We should have been past this long ago, but we're not. Partly due to lack of education and partly due to willful ignorance we still have that damnable Jim Crow crap to deal with. It is 2010 for another month, and in that month I am hoping with all my might that we will stop this stealing of our democracy by the plutocrats. Fascism is alive and well and it is in this country. It is up to each one of us to speak out, and yes boycott, because if we don't who will?

[The_Lady_Snow]

My frustration comes from the blatant underlined comments that are excused after they are called upon. My frustration comes from asking repeatedly to not have the term illegal thrown out there as well. My frustration comes from the ridiculous excuses for not being up to date when it comes to what is going on in your state. My frustration comes from the colorful adjectives that are chosen to describe my people. ( I bet I would get my ass reamed for using cr%$#@r if refering to a white person)

These arguments get old, but I hang on hoping that when we come in and points the obvious truths out and how they are *affecting* us it is dismissed with accusations of pile ons and *popular cliques*.

I would like for once, maybe once when a white person comes and says something that is not ok, that they listen, and not use that whole deflection of

"but that is not what I said"

"stop picking on me"

"stop pointing me out the light the light it burnsssssssssss"

I would like that A LOT!

Do I think it will happen?

Gosh damn it I hope so.

So when I say Arizona is a racist state, I can, I have family there, I could share some stories (why though they fall on deaf ears) now, do I think every single person is?

No, but the ones who aren't and stay silent and use colorfol racial descriptors well then it's no different than standing by, letting a kid get hit by a car. Why should you help, not your kid, not your car, so *shrug*

[katsarecool]

A friend of mine on FB was at the big protest a few months back a few days after the judge put a hold on SB 1070. She is encouraging everyone to please use the term Undocumented and I agree. She was arrested that day and will be the first one to go on trial. She is such a strong woman!!!! And I am very proud of her.

[Novelafemme]

I will adamantly admit that Arizona is a racist state. I do not live here by choice and would happily move if I could and it really stinks to be "stuck" here. I have a lot of poop in my pants over it.

[QueenofSmirks]

...That pretty much leaves the mass exodus of Hispanics which I still hold would probably be the *most* effective form of protest....

I'm actually reading post by post, oldest to newest of today's post, so I may have a lot more to say on this later, but for now I want to say that I actually agree with this. To me, this puts the power in the hands of the people who are being discriminated against and allows them to make their own choices, and by doing so, effectively hurts the people trying to cause them harm. I'm all for this type of action.

[QueenofSmirks]

...My frustration comes from the ridiculous excuses for not being up to date when it comes to what is going on in your state.

Why are you frustrated about what someone else knows or doesn't know that lives in a state you don't live in? It's their life; they have different priorities than you do. Why does that frustrate you? Do you believe everyone should have the same priorties as yours and think the same way you do and have your same opinions?

...So when I say Arizona is a racist state, I can, I have family there, I could share some stories (why though they fall on deaf ears) now, do I think every single person is?

Well, I think that's where some of the miscommunication is then... because when you say "Arizona" is a racist state, you do imply that it is all citizens of Arizona that are racist, as so many others in this thread have also done. By not using the term "most" or "some" or just "voters who voted in Jan Brewer & Co", you do imply "all".

...No, but the ones who aren't and stay silent

Ok,sure, but it's been said over and over that some of the posters voted AGAINST, so they weren't "silent", they just weren't part of the majority voters.


....and use colorfol racial descriptors ...

I understand you are upset by this and I'm not going to try to argue against that. My mother is Caucasian, my father is Hispanic; maybe that doesn't qualify me to have an opinion, but my Hispanic side wasn't offended by the words "that look", because taken in context, I completely understood what was being said, and it was NOT an attempt to be hateful or discriminatory or racist. The very discussion we are having is about racial profiling which does use a "look" to determine who falls under its grasp.

...well then it's no different than standing by, letting a kid get hit by a car. Why should you help, not your kid, not your car, so *shrug*


It absolutely IS different, because this analogy implies that people sat by and didn't vote and let Jan Brewer get into office. That isn't the case for some of the posters in this thread. They DID vote, they didn't however win the majority vote!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow

I don't have to live in Az to be affected. I'm affected because I am a daughter ofan illegal"
I am affected because this law targets my people.

So in a thread that is ABOUT a boycott I thought I could express that and I will wether you or anyfucking else like it or not.

Now if you aren't offended by Cody's colorful descriptors goody for you I am so I said it, like keeping it real.

It's really not all that hard to figure out why I reacted the way I did, I'm pretty clear, shrug it off if you'd like, that's on you.

[QueenofSmirks]

Wow

I don't have to live in Az to be affected. I'm affected because I am a daughter ofan illegal"
I am affected because this law targets my people.

So in a thread that is ABOUT a boycott I thought I could express that and I will wether you or anyfucking else like it or not.

Now if you aren't offended by Cody's colorful descriptors goody for you I am so I said it, like keeping it real.

It's really not all that hard to figure out why I reacted the way I did, I'm pretty clear, shrug it off if you'd like, that's on you.

Did you actually read my post, or did you hit reply by accident? Because nothing you just said above has anything to do with anything I said.

So, I won't bother to try to understand you since you have no interest in helping me to.

Carry on....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Did you actually read my post, or did you hit reply by accident? Because nothing you just said above has anything to do with anything I said.

So, I won't bother to try to understand you since you have no interest in helping me to.

Carry on....




Sometimes I post for the sheer sadistic heck of it and hit submit

I get bored this late at night:)

[Thinker]

Final Warning

The admin team is having a tough time with what is going on in this thread. We are sympathetic to the importance and sensitivity of the topic; we're also sympathetic to the feelings of the members here.

Flat out... Some of you have made this entirely too personal *against* other members, and that's just not okay.

If you have a beef you'd like to discuss in private, then please do so. Other than that, the "going at other members" must stop; failure to do so will result in a timeout.

If you choose to participate in a discussion of this nature, then you must also accept that others will disagree with you. That doesn't always feel good, but you need to be a big enough person to accept that as reality. That said, disagreeing with someone does NOT look like insult, criticism, or berating. It can be done in a respectful manner.

If someone apologizes for something they said or chooses to leave the conversation, then accept that and move on. Quit beating dead horses. It's a waste of energy, and it does nothing to further productive discussion.

Finally, have *this* discussion *here*. Take private matters private. Do NOT take hurt feelings from this thread and sprinkle poop dust around the site. It's childish, and it's not fair to the rest of the community.

Again, this is a final moderation warning. Keep it clean and about the original topic, or just move on.

As always, contact me via PM with legitimate questions or concerns regarding this moderation.

[dreadgeek]

I'm actually reading post by post, oldest to newest of today's post, so I may have a lot more to say on this later, but for now I want to say that I actually agree with this. To me, this puts the power in the hands of the people who are being discriminated against and allows them to make their own choices, and by doing so, effectively hurts the people trying to cause them harm. I'm all for this type of action.



To me this is just a boycott by another name. As I said before, I do not think you or Cody or any other person posting on this thread supports SB 1070 or thinks that racial profiling is a great idea. That said, SB 1070 exists, the law in question puts a big 'racial profiling welcome here' sign at the border of Arizona and I do not think that it helps if there are NO consequences to be paid. If Arizona gets away with this and banning, for all practical purposes, the teaching of any form of ethnic studies then other states will be emboldened to do something similar.

As far as voting, only 46.49% of Arizonans who were eligible voted a month ago. What that means is that 53.51% of Arizonans, by not voting, voted for Brewer by default. Not voting is always a tacit vote for whomever ends up winning the election. Again, I want to make it clear that I'm not talking about you or Cody I'm talking about Arizona as a polity and the results of the choices that Arizona has made. A majority of eligible voters were comfortable enough with the prospect of Ms Brewer as governor to not vote.

That doesn't mean that I look down on Arizonans, I don't. It doesn't mean that I think that all Arizonans are racists or think that racial profiling is the best thing to happen since oxygen. It means simply that more than half of all eligible Arizona voters failed to exercise their right to vote and are thus responsible for what happens.

It is sad that you and other Arizonans of goodwill will be caught up in this.

Cheers
Aj

[DomnNC]

FYI - Voters Rights - Straight from the website of the National Coalition for the Homeless.

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/projects/vote/legalissues.html

Some states had previously required registrants to live in a “traditional dwelling” in order to register to vote. Judicial decisions in court cases and the enactment of state and federal laws have eliminated that requirement. Today, homeless individuals in all states--including those people who are living on the streets--have the right to register and vote. When registering to vote, homeless voters only need to designate their place of residence, which can be a street corner, a park, a shelter, or any other location where an individual stays at night.

Concerning mailing addresses: The address provided may be that of a local advocacy organization, shelter, outreach center, or anywhere else willing to accept mail on behalf of a person registering to vote. Some states, like Arizona or Nebraska, allow homeless people to use county courthouses or county clerks’ offices as their mailing address. Some states will not allow registrants to use a P.O. Box as a mailing address. A registrant’s mailing address does not have to be the person’s residential address.

Concerning lack of ID: If a registrant has neither a current driver’s license number nor Social Security Number, then the registrant will be assigned a voter ID number once her or his registration is approved.

You can read the rest at the website. Every American has the right to vote, homeless or not.

[Nat]

As a person who doesn't live in Arizona, SB1070 is concerning to me because

1. I live in Texas and if Arizona gets away with this sort of blatant, threatening and harmful discrimination, it's likely to spread.

2. I'm invested in this country's purported protection of civil rights, and Arizona's violation of those rights threatens the future of this country.

3. I am a human being and I care about human beings who are being violated, threatened and harmed by the government. It's not okay with me, and I don't know why it would be okay with anybody else either.

I understand why Latinos would be leaving Arizona, and I do hope Arizona suffers for the loss. I think I would leave too, because I would feel threatened, isolated, afraid and at risk.

To pick up and leave your home - it's a big deal. It's expensive, it's destabilizing. It means losing connections, support, friendships. For a person to feel the need to move, to uproot their family, to quit jobs in this terrible economy, in order to escape state-sanctioned racial discrimination - these people are making great sacrifices - not simply protesting something they disagree with. It's tragedy due to state-sponsored injustice, not simply protest.

If Texas experiences a mass exodus of Latinos due to a similar law, it won't be Texas anymore to me.

When people who have privilege stand by silently and shrug their shoulders when things like this happen to people with less privilege, they are lending their tacit agreement to these laws - which is all that's needed to turn this country into a much uglier place. I don't understand how any person could defend SB1070 or think it's okay that Latinos are leaving the state in droves because their safety is so threatened.

I think it's really ironic that the majority of Americans who talk about the threat of big government are largely the same people (mostly white people) who have no issues with government overstepping its bounds and violating the civil rights of people of color.

-------------------------------------------------

By the way, today's a great day to call your senators and voice your support of the DREAM (Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors) act to help young people at risk of deportation obtain temporary residency and have a chance for conditional permanent residency if they complete two years in the military or two years at a four year institution of higher learning. *

Http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

[BullDog]

I already posted this in another thread, but I will post it here because the connection is meaningful to me. Today is the 55th anniversary of the day that Rosa Parks refused to give up her bus seat to a white person. I am 48 years old. That means people slightly older than me went through a time, particularly in the South, where people of color were supposed to sit in the back of the buses and be segregated on what they could do and where they could go based on race- there were laws on the books (Jim Crow) that supported some of those things. What is happening in Arizona (and elsewhere) reminds me of those times.

[dreadgeek]

I already posted this in another thread, but I will post it here because the connection is meaningful to me. Today is the 55th anniversary of the day that Rosa Parks refused to give up her bus seat to a white person. I am 48 years old. That means people slightly older than me went through a time, particularly in the South, where people of color were supposed to sit in the back of the buses and be segregated on what they could do and where they could go based on race- there were laws on the books (Jim Crow) that supported some of those things. What is happening in Arizona (and elsewhere) reminds me of those times.

Back when I lived in California, there was a ballot measure to eliminate affirmative action at both the level of state hiring, contracting and education. About a week before the vote, I was on the BART and listening to these two women going back and forth about how they couldn't understand why THEY had to be 'punished' because 'they never owned slaves' and all the other kinds of crap that white people feel justified to say when talking about civil rights and they're not talking about how much they admire Martin Luther King, Jr. When I could stand it no more I turned around, asked if they minded if I added some perspective and said the following:

"All of the following statements are true:

I am the first member of my immediate family to have never spent a day in segregated schooling.
I am the first member of my immediate family to have no memory of using a colored-only bathroom or water fountain (which doesn't mean I never did, just that I was too young to remember it ever happening).
I am the first member of my immediate family to have only lived in an integrated neighborhood.
I am the first member of my family to have never used a library or swimming pool on the 'coloreds-only' day.
I am not yet forty years old."

They were stopped in their tracks because I think they *genuinely* believed the picture of the history of black people in this country they were taught in high school which, more or less, goes like this:

1776 - America is founded. Black people are here but the less said about them the better. Except for Crispus Attucks.

Black people do nothing of much significance nor does anything of much significance happen to us until 1863.

1865 -- Slavery ends at the close of the Civil war
1865 - 1879 or so--Reconstruction. Not a whole lot of note happens here.

1955 -- For no adequately explored reason Rosa Parks refuses to move to the back of the bus.

1963 -- For no adequately explored reason, some preacher named King gives a speech on the Washington Mall. Every white person who will eventually run for public office after 1989 marches with him.

1964 -- Civil rights and voting rights acts pass. The reasons these laws are necessary is left somewhat vague leaving the impression that white people had simply failed to be nice to blacks.

1968 -- Martin Luther King, Jr. is assassinated.

One thing I'd love to change in this country is to reset our sense of history. I'm only half-joking when I say that for Americans history is like this:

History--anything that happened more than 48 hours ago.
Ancient history -- anything that happened more than a year ago
Antiquity -- anything that happened more than 5 years ago
Lost to the mists of time what no living person can remember -- anything that happened more than 10 years ago
The dinosaurs are the only witnesses -- Anything that happened 20 or more years ago.
You mean there was an Earth then? -- Anything that happened prior to 1970
You mean the Universe existed? -- Anything that happened prior to 1960
The Big Bang -- 1950


We act as if 1960 is a year no living person could remember but that's only 50 years ago.


Cheers
Aj

[I'mOneToo]

Speaking as a (formerly) "real homeless person" (though i preferred the term "houseless")

because none have come forth, I'll give you a first person account

I *DID* have: (and still do have, it's not a "home address" that legitimizes a person)

A post office box

A voter registration card

A valid driver's license

A healthier diet than some "housed" folks (heck, even myself right now -- I could afford better food then!)

An up-to-date auto insurance policy

A bank account

A life without debt



I did *NOT* ever:

Stay in a shelter

Stay in a halfway house

Make national or global current events my first stop on the information highway when availing myself of internet access

NEVER NEVER NEVER bought alcohol

NEVER NEVER NEVER bought cigarettes

NEVER NEVER NEVER bought illicit drugs of any kind

NEVER NEVER NEVER made assumptions about how "real homeless people" feel -- i.e., for me it did not HURT ME to be homeless in any way. What hurt at times was people making incredible assumptions about me, my life, and my feelings. But no, MY TRUTH did NOT hurt.

I would not feel ashamed if any of my "nots" had been "yesses" on the list, however. Hope I've dispelled some of the myths abounding about what kind of rights homeless folks have. Not everyone has *ACCESS* but no one is denied the *RIGHT* to vote, to drive, or to live without fear of being judged for living in less than what some consider "a proper home."



I'll be back after I marinate on my thoughts about how so many of you have suggested that my family and friends in arizona should suffer dire economic consequences (in other words, that my friends and family deserve to die?) because "their state" has adopted racist policies.

When anyone says "boycott a state" they are recommending bankrupting all of the residents. Bankrupt people starve to death. It's hard to move an entire family to make a political statement -- just as it is difficult for everyone HERE to move TO arizona to make a political statement.

hmm... but why *aren't* we ALL moving *TO* arizona to register to vote as arizonans to change things? How can anyone EXCEPT a privileged individual expect *others* to make sacrifices to make america better, instead of taking the bull by the horns ourselves? the ONLY pro-active measures are votes, according to this thread. So... if you're not a registered arizona voter, GET THERE AND REGISTER.

There was an article that came out a couple of days about about how next door in Nevada they are considering their own version of SB1070.

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20101129/NEWS/101129606/1070&ParentProfile=1058 - "2 Nevada lawmakers to push for immigration law"

sooooo..... BOYCOTT ARIZONA and while you're at it, BOYCOTT NEVADA ... and BOYCOTT THE OTHER 20 STATES CONSIDERING SIMILAR MEASURES TO SB1070

http://colorlines.com/archives/2010/06/mapping_the_nationwide_spread_of_arizonas_sb_1070. html

in case everyone is unaware, the latest racist policies of arizona are driven by a rigged corporate game. I'll be back with details of that, too. early in the thread, someone named dean robert hit it on the head.



FYI - Voters Rights - Straight from the website of the National Coalition for the Homeless.

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/projects/vote/legalissues.html

Some states had previously required registrants to live in a “traditional dwelling” in order to register to vote. Judicial decisions in court cases and the enactment of state and federal laws have eliminated that requirement. Today, homeless individuals in all states--including those people who are living on the streets--have the right to register and vote. When registering to vote, homeless voters only need to designate their place of residence, which can be a street corner, a park, a shelter, or any other location where an individual stays at night.

Concerning mailing addresses: The address provided may be that of a local advocacy organization, shelter, outreach center, or anywhere else willing to accept mail on behalf of a person registering to vote. Some states, like Arizona or Nebraska, allow homeless people to use county courthouses or county clerks’ offices as their mailing address. Some states will not allow registrants to use a P.O. Box as a mailing address. A registrant’s mailing address does not have to be the person’s residential address.

Concerning lack of ID: If a registrant has neither a current driver’s license number nor Social Security Number, then the registrant will be assigned a voter ID number once her or his registration is approved.

You can read the rest at the website. Every American has the right to vote, homeless or not.

[dreadgeek]

I'll be back after I marinate on my thoughts about how so many of you have suggested that my family and friends in arizona should suffer dire economic consequences (in other words, that my friends and family deserve to die?) because "their state" has adopted racist policies.

Actually no one has said or implied anything remotely like the idea that anyone should die. I will, however, reiterate that laws have consequences.


When anyone says "boycott a state" they are recommending bankrupting all of the residents.

No, they are recommending putting pressure on the state of Arizona to change the law. The whole idea of a strike or a boycott isn't to ruin businesses, it is to put pressure on them. Right now, Arizona has a law that is explicitly racist and is an open invitation to racial profiling. It is meant to make a particular population feel unsafe and unwelcome and like second-class citizens. It is meant to intimidate citizens. That law must be repealed.


Bankrupt people starve to death. It's hard to move an entire family to make a political statement -- just as it is difficult for everyone HERE to move TO arizona to make a political statement.

No one is suggesting that people move to 'make a political statement'. I do believe it would behoove Hispanics living in Arizona to find the exits but that is not about making a political statement, that is about making sure that they are safe. Whites living in Arizona have no reason to move. Let them stay. As I said last night, an exodus is a boycott by another name. I think that Hispanics should leave the state of Arizona and move somewhere they will be welcome.


hmm... but why *aren't* we ALL moving *TO* arizona to register to vote as arizonans to change things?

Why should ANY person of color put themselves in harm's way? If it were *just* this law, maybe you would have a point but it isn't *just* this law. There's the 'no teaching ethnic studies in school' regulation with its attendant 'no teaching if you have a 'thick' accent' provision. There's the billboards showing a Hispanic family as "the biggest threat facing our nation". And then there's this gem; on 3 Oct 2009 an interracial couple was walking through a park and a man came up to them and asked the black man what he was doing with a white woman. They walked on, he got into a car, followed them and shot them. She died, he lived. In 2009. Over interracial dating. In Arizona.


How can anyone EXCEPT a privileged individual expect *others* to make sacrifices to make america better, instead of taking the bull by the horns ourselves? the ONLY pro-active measures are votes, according to this thread. So... if you're not a registered arizona voter, GET THERE AND REGISTER.

Except that sword cuts both ways. It is always people of color who have to exercise infinite patience. At each step in the last century, black people were told we had to wait. ONE day, but not today, we could go to any school. ONE day, but not too soon, we could live in any neighborhood. ONE day, but wait for it to come, we will be able to marry anyone we love. And on and on and on. Even today, if someone says something offensive it is always and forever people of color who are supposed to be patient, forbearing and understanding.

Votes have consequences or they should have. Arizona, a state in a democratic republic, elected people who passed a law that in 2010 makes a segment of the population second-class citizens. The state, by its democratic behavior, made a choice and yes it absolutely sucks that people who made another choice will feel pain because of it. They don't deserve it. But neither does the Hispanic mother deserve to have to fear being pulled over by a cop when she was just running down to get a few items at the grocery store and so doesn't have her birth cert on her. For that matter, neither does the Hispanic father who may have to hold it together while he is humiliated by some cop who asks him questions along the "so how long have you been in this country" line. You have not truly tasted of life's bittersweet tragedy until you have had to watch your father hold it in while his very dignity is assaulted in front of his family. They don't deserve it either.

I'm not talking about people in the country without proper documents or people who have overstayed their visa. I'm talking about people whose bloodlines have lived on the same patch of land since not long after the last ice age ended. They are citizens. I'm talking about people born here. They, too, are citizens. After the Civil Rights movement, I and many others thought, it would appear incorrectly, that we had at long last settled the issue in this country of whether you could make laws designed to make a group of people second-class citizens based upon race. Since Arizona has chosen to take a step backward, I think two things should happen until the state comes to its senses:

1) Every Hispanic person who *can* leave the state should give very serious consideration to finding a new zip code.

2) People should not vacation in Arizona, organizations should not have their conventions in Arizona.

The people who *own* the businesses in Arizona want to continue doing so. If they begin to feel the pressure, they *will* pressure their government to repeal the bill. That's how strikes and boycotts work. That's why they are used.


There was an article that came out a couple of days about about how next door in Nevada they are considering their own version of SB1070.

http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20101129/NEWS/101129606/1070&ParentProfile=1058 - "2 Nevada lawmakers to push for immigration law"

sooooo..... BOYCOTT ARIZONA and while you're at it, BOYCOTT NEVADA ... and BOYCOTT THE OTHER 20 STATES CONSIDERING SIMILAR MEASURES TO SB1070



Any state that passes a similar law should have to fear the exact same set of consequences. Perhaps that would give them a moment of pause.


in case everyone is unaware, the latest racist policies of arizona are driven by a rigged corporate game. I'll be back with details of that, too. early in the thread, someone named dean robert hit it on the head.

They may be driven by that and I think that a number of us are aware of it. However, that does not change, substantially, the effects on the ground. Racist laws should have consequences for states that pass them and NOT just the sole consequence that the ethnic minority targeted by them gets to live in fear.

Cheers
Aj