It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[MsDemeanor]

First they pass the Birther legislation. Now, Governor Brewer just signed SB 1070, the "Papers Please" law. Now any brown person in AZ can be stopped at any time by any cop and forced to prove that they are in the country legally. State officials claim that they won't profile, but I'm seriously doubting that the police are going to go around asking white folks to produce papers.

Polls show that 70% of residents support SB1070.

[Queerasfck]

Arizona is now the laughing stock of the USA. People hear AZ and think "racist." Sad. And I believe the majority of people in AZ would say they want less government in their lives. This is an example of the opposite of that but they don't seem to make the connection because of their ignorance and racism. Wake the fuck up! It's unreal. I can't believe I live here.

[apretty]

70% of the people polled.

0% of the people i know approve of SB1070 nor the people that those people know--or the kids demonstrating, and college students demonstrating and getting arrested.

to be clear, there is a hate-mongering and fearful racist, moneyed minority in this state.

boycott what you like, but i didn't know that this was a mecca for anyone except rich, white golfer-retirees. (not a lot of queer dollars in that demographic.)

[Strappie]

That's down right sad

[Andrew, Jr.]

Very sad indeed. :crap:

[Down2marsboi]

First they pass the Birther legislation. Now, Governor Brewer just signed SB 1070, the "Papers Please" law. Now any brown person in AZ can be stopped at any time by any cop and forced to prove that they are in the country legally. State officials claim that they won't profile, but I'm seriously doubting that the police are going to go around asking white folks to produce papers.

Polls show that 70% of residents support SB1070.

Yeah,

That's TRUELY ashame...racial profiling was already running a muck before...I HATE to think what it will be like NOW.

[apretty]

Yeah,

That's TRUELY ashame...racial profiling was already running a muck before...I HATE to think what it will be like NOW.

i'm guessing... MORE racial profiling, more arrests, more mistreatment of human beings, more disregard for human life, more empowered 'minutemen' freaks.

and what they weren't planning on is the UNITY that i'm seeing. there's a HUGE latino population here and an obvious imbalance of power. i remain (hugely pissed) and hopeful.

[MsDemeanor]

70% of the people polled.

0% of the people i know approve of SB1070 nor the people that those people know--or the kids demonstrating, and college students demonstrating and getting arrested.

to be clear, there is a hate-mongering and fearful racist, moneyed minority in this state.

boycott what you like, but i didn't know that this was a mecca for anyone except rich, white golfer-retirees. (not a lot of queer dollars in that demographic.)
I looked closer. The poll was done by Rasmussen, which is notoriously right-wing biased in it's results, and it polled "likely voters". It's quite possible that Rasmussen only considers likely voters to be white republicans.

Thanks for making me look more closely. I'm sorry that the non-racists in AZ will be stuck with the bill for the lawsuits that are sure to come rolling in.

[suebee]

I heard on the radio that police will receive training to prevent racial profiling. :batmoose: Uh.....yeah - right. As if THAT'S worked so well before. :3stooges:

[The_Lady_Snow]

This is a sad thing indeed, to be brown, pulled over, with a law backing up the cops..

I would be terrified..:|

It's sickening

[Bella~Vita]

This is just wrong .. it's disgraceful ..

[Nat]

this is really upsetting. :( I hope this gets stricken down somehow. How can 70% of Arizonans be okay with that?

Also, according to wikipedia, "non-Hispanic whites" make up only 59% of the population. I think that poll is bs.

ps. I just read above - thanks Msdemeanor for clarifying more about the poll. Kinda went off half-cocked. :)

[Toughy]

it'll be interesting when the po-po pull over one of those million dollar brown baseball players during spring training....and he doesn't have his green card and only has a driver's license from another state......that'll be way fun.....

there is hope....many police officers are against this bill including former Mesa AZ police chief and now current SF police chief http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/152962

and also:

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2010/04/22/20100422arizona-immigration-bill-police-impact.html
The Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police opposes SB 1070 because the group says the law would hobble law enforcement's ability to "fulfill their many responsibilities in a timely manner." But it said its chiefs will enforce the measure if it becomes law.

Besides immigration enforcement is a federal responsibility not a state one........

so here is a summary of the bill:
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/s.1070pshs_aspassed.doc.htm

[suebee]

Rachel Maddow with her usual wit on the subject:

YouTube- WANSM-Latest Arizona's Immigration Law, April 23, 2010

[UofMfan]

I am wondering how much is going to cost the "Good Citizens" of Arizona to defend this Bill in the Courts.

Prejudice...Priceless!!

[Softhearted]

:wtf:

I'm totally speechless... This is so wrong!

[apretty]

i hope she overdoses on her boniva.

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/01/jan-brewer.jpg

[Billy]

This is a sad thing indeed, to be brown, pulled over, with a law backing up the cops..

I would be terrified..:|

It's sickening

Sometimes I wonder and I try not to do it often , Where do these people come from and how do they get in the position of power that they are in ....:angry:

[apretty]

our friendship ended months ago, she unfriended me on facebook. *real sad face* for questioning her on her lack of college degree, on declaring an official 'day of prayer' to fix the economy, and because i dared ask if the citizens pay for her health care (she wants to sue the feds to exempt az from having health care reform because she's crying poor...).

we're no longer bffs, can't imagine why.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6-IIXAF5HOE/Snt90FFV2kI/AAAAAAAAGZA/cA7DG2I3xh0/s400/Gov.JanBrewer(R-Arizona).jpg

*she also (well, to be fair i'm sure it's her assistant) erases opposing comments on her FB and unfriends anyone that speak the truth.

IRONY: the night before she signed the racist bill she spoke at a Chicana function. (no one was aware of this bill when she was asked to speak, but come on! does she look like someone you'd ask to speak at your Chicana function?)

lovingly, my friends refer to her as the 'crypt keeper'.

[apretty]

Sometimes I wonder and I try not to do it often , Where do these people come from and how do they get in the position of power that they are in ....:angry:

she's only in office because president obama appointed our then-governor, napolitano (a democrat and female, twice elected) as secretary of homeland security. that gave the then-secretary of state jan brewer the office. so basically, bad luck.

[UofMfan]

The first boat-lift of "Illegal Immigrants"!

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/translator08/mayflower.jpg

[Toughy]

The first boat-lift of "Illegal Immigrants"!

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j269/translator08/mayflower.jpg

laughing.............not to be picky but I will.........

St Augustine FL is the oldest continuously inhabited European settlement in the US and was founded in 1565 by Spaniards..there were earlier Spanish settlements but they were destroyed.

followed by Jamestown and Santa Fe NM in 1607

several colonies were established in Canada, Mexico, Central America in the late 1490's and early 1500's.....

the Acoma and Taos Pueblos (New Mexico) are the oldest continuously occupied cities/towns in North America.........settled around 1000 CE (CE=common Era).....followed by the Hopi town of Oraibi (Arizona) around 1100 CE

[UofMfan]

laughing.............not to be picky but I will.........

St Augustine FL is the oldest continuously inhabited European settlement in the US and was founded in 1565 by Spaniards..there were earlier Spanish settlements but they were destroyed.

followed by Jamestown and Santa Fe NM in 1607

several colonies were established in Canada, Mexico, Central America in the late 1490's and early 1500's.....

the Acoma and Taos Pueblos (New Mexico) are the oldest continuously occupied cities/towns in North America.........settled around 1000 CE (CE=common Era).....followed by the Hopi town of Oraibi (Arizona) around 1100 CE

True, this makes me more of a US citizen than most, since I am part Spaniard.

Truth be told, it was those who came in the Mayflower who are considered the "first" settlers, which we all know not to be true. This is among the many lies taught to us at schools.

Although, the only ones that can claim to be "true" Americans, North, South and Central, are Native Americans, of which I also have a chunk of. Everyone else has immigrated, mostly illegally to the US.

Funnily enough, I would be stopped over in AZ because I don't "look" American, yet my bloodline says otherwise.

[Hudson]

i hope she overdoses on her boniva.

http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/01/jan-brewer.jpg


Is that a cactus or a pitchfork?

Not to worry, all she's ultimately doing is packaging up the Latino vote and handing it over to the Dems, not only in AZ but across the country (not to mention putting some much-needed pressure on Obama)

Thanks, Jan!

[Queerasfck]

our friendship ended months ago, she unfriended me on facebook. *real sad face* for questioning her on her lack of college degree, on declaring an official 'day of prayer' to fix the economy, and because i dared ask if the citizens pay for her health care (she wants to sue the feds to exempt az from having health care reform because she's crying poor...).

we're no longer bffs, can't imagine why.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6-IIXAF5HOE/Snt90FFV2kI/AAAAAAAAGZA/cA7DG2I3xh0/s400/Gov.JanBrewer(R-Arizona).jpg

*she also (well, to be fair i'm sure it's her assistant) erases opposing comments on her FB and unfriends anyone that speak the truth.

IRONY: the night before she signed the racist bill she spoke at a Chicana function. (no one was aware of this bill when she was asked to speak, but come on! does she look like someone you'd ask to speak at your Chicana function?)

lovingly, my friends refer to her as the 'crypt keeper'.

Oddly enough, apretty's facebook has never been the same since the Jan Brewer incident. For a few days afterwards she couldn't post at all, it was completely frozen. It finally was unfrozen but she was unable to fb chat. She has been unable to regain the use of her fb chat even though she has put in numerous emails to fb about it. Conspiracy theory.

[evolveme]

i hope she overdoses on her boniva.


lovingly, my friends refer to her as the 'crypt keeper'.


I'm troubled here by what I consider to be both ageist and anti-feminist comments above. As difficult as it is for women of any age to find themselves in positions of power, especially in government, but particularly the battle that women of a certain age face, I see these comments as both unnecessary and hypocritical. If Jan Brewer can be accused of racism, how is it effective to battle her with ageism?

Further, I do not see the point in the following statement:

...does she look like someone you'd ask to speak at your Chicana function?...

What must someone look like in order that they be welcome to speak at a Chicana function?

[Soon]

YouTube- How will Arizona Profile People? Shoes!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm troubled here by what I consider to be both ageist and anti-feminist comments above. As difficult as it is for women of any age to find themselves in positions of power, especially in government, but particularly the battle that women of a certain age face, I see these comments as both unnecessary and hypocritical. If Jan Brewer can be accused of racism, how is it effective to battle her with ageism?

Further, I do not see the point in the following statement:



What must someone look like in order that they be welcome to speak at a Chicana function?


*I* personally feel she looks like something worse than just a crypt keeper, I could care less of the ol douche was 45 or 89 she just put a hunt sign on my people..

As for a Chicana function..

How about someone from my latino community, who gives a damn and isn't about placing a target on my forehead, not some white woman giving free tickets to racial profiling.

But that is just me, ms pretty may have a different view...

P.S.

My mom called this woman a *cunt* I have NEVER heard her use this word.. So ms pretty was actually kind to what alot of latinos and chicanos are calling her...

Just sayin'

[apretty]

this is SO NOT the place for you to start some personal shit.


I'm troubled here by what I consider to be both ageist and anti-feminist comments above. As difficult as it is for women of any age to find themselves in positions of power, especially in government, but particularly the battle that women of a certain age face, I see these comments as both unnecessary and hypocritical. If Jan Brewer can be accused of racism, how is it effective to battle her with ageism?

Further, I do not see the point in the following statement:



What must someone look like in order that they be welcome to speak at a Chicana function?

[evolveme]

*I* personally feel she looks like something worse than just a crypt keeper, I could care less of the ol douche was 45 or 89 she just put a hunt sign on my people..

As for a Chicana function..

How about someone from my latino community, who gives a damn and isn't about placing a target on my forehead, not some white woman giving free tickets to racial profiling.

But that is just me, ms pretty may have a different view...

P.S.

My mom called this woman a *cunt* I have NEVER heard her use this word.. So ms pretty was actually kind to what alot of latinos and chicanos are calling her...

Just sayin'

To me, this is an example of how women betray women and personalize what is topical, ideological, or purely political in order to punish. Yes, the personal is political, but to reverse this axiom, to make personal what is someone else's politic, is unreasonable.

Brewer's politics are disturbing and deeply unjust. But to utilize ageism and anti-feminism against her is to only be guilty of the very principles that she upholds.

this is SO NOT the place for you to start some personal shit.

As I've written many times before on the subject:
I debate what I find to be worthy of debate and it is never personal, nor will it ever be personal. I debate ideas, not people. In such matters ("personal shit," of which we have zero), I am much more direct.

[The_Lady_Snow]

See this is where folx think differently, when I see ms pretty calling that woman a crypt keeper her age not once sprang to mind..

You ever see that fucker, all mean and cackly and evil, that is how it connected with me.

So yeah anyways..

As for betrayal..

*laughs* that bitch betrayed my people first, you think I care if she is woman or not, you think she gives a shit about all the brown women?

No

wanna know how I know

She signed it with a smile and a nod to the camera with NO THOUGHT to her fellow sisters

women of this world, country, her state.

So I don't feel so not PC

[Corkey]

In her press conference, her last words hit me as asinine, it was almost like "come back next week to see what other fuckery I have for you!"

Insane, inane, asinine, racist, and wholly fucked up!

[suebee]

Personally the ageist and anti-feminist comments when right over my head, although I felt a bit of a breeze up there. :watereyes: I kind of thought someone would comment on her looks. If a man in her position had a weathered face, nobody would bat an eye. So, yeah - it's not very cool.

BUT - This woman is the poster child for white privilege. Her arguments, comments as to how this new law will be applied withOUT profiling make absolutely no sense. That didn't deter her from using them. She seems so convinced that she is right that logic has nothing to do with it. She views the world from her position of power and her only concern is to protect that power. To hell with the lives this could disrupt, scar - even destroy.

I'd love to see her walk down the street in a predominantly latino neighbourhood and see if her well-practiced smile helps explain away her racist policy.

[evolveme]

BUT - This woman is the poster child for white privilege. Her arguments, comments as to how this new law will be applied withOUT profiling make absolutely no sense. That didn't deter her from using them. She seems so convinced that she is right that logic has nothing to do with it. She views the world from her position of power and her only concern is to protect that power. To hell with the lives this could disrupt, scar - even destroy.

I'd love to see her walk down the street in a predominantly latino neighbourhood and see if her well-practiced smile helps explain away her racist policy.

I agree with you here, Sue. And what I think is that Brewer is pandering to the deep prejudice of her constituents, for the benefit of her own political and personal (racist) agenda. The most troubling part about it is that Brewer, her constituents, and anyone holding to such racist, anti-immigrant views truly believe they are right. Even just.

[Hack]

In her press conference, her last words hit me as asinine, it was almost like "come back next week to see what other fuckery I have for you!"

Insane, inane, asinine, racist, and wholly fucked up!

I watched her press conference in its entirety. I was immediately glad I was not her press secretary. And I also gained a new appreciation for some of the asshats I have worked for in the past, thinking maybe they weren't so bad afterall.

[Hack]

Let's remember that in 2008, Obama received 67 percent of the Latino vote. This was unprecedented in American politics. In 2004, John Kerry got 53 percent of the Latino vote, compared to 44 percent for George W. Bush -- the most ever received by any Republican presidential candidate.

Latinos were about 9 percent of the total vote in the Obama-McCain election. This number will continue to grow, according to every poll and analysis I have read.

Obama was more successful than any Democrat before him in pulling Latino voters. Why? He didn't talk to them like an ethnic group. If you listen to any speech he gave to a primarily Latino audience or in New Mexico, Florida, Colorado or Nevada, he spoke to Latinos about inclusive key issues -- the economy and Iraq.

Given that, I think Gov. Brewer's actions do solidify what was already a growing Democratic voting bloc. However, I think there are factions within the Latino community that remain solidly Republican -- the Cuban-Americans in south Florida are a prime example.

I'd be interested in knowing if law enforcement groups endorsed this new law or were they opposed to it? If they opposed it, it just further supports that this was a dumb political move for Brewer. It is stuff like this that swings law enforcement support in elections to the Democrats. If she is pandering to a narrow band of conservatives in her party, what has she accomplished? As a politician, she's shot herself in the foot twice -- once with Latino voters and maybe again with law enforcement.

But it did grab her an entire national news cycle for at least a day or two.

Palin, Bachmann, Brewer...a truly scary mix.

[The_Lady_Snow]

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. THEN THEY CAME for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. THEN THEY CAME for me and by that time no one was left to speak up." Pastor Martin Niemöller

[UofMfan]

Let's remember that in 2008, Obama received 67 percent of the Latino vote. This was unprecedented in American politics. In 2004, John Kerry got 53 percent of the Latino vote, compared to 44 percent for George W. Bush -- the most ever received by any Republican presidential candidate.

Latinos were about 9 percent of the total vote in the Obama-McCain election. This number will continue to grow, according to every poll and analysis I have read.

Obama was more successful than any Democrat before him in pulling Latino voters. Why? He didn't talk to them like an ethnic group. If you listen to any speech he gave to a primarily Latino audience or in New Mexico, Florida, Colorado or Nevada, he spoke to Latinos about inclusive key issues -- the economy and Iraq.

Given that, I think Gov. Brewer's actions do solidify what was already a growing Democratic voting bloc. However, I think there are factions within the Latino community that remain solidly Republican -- the Cuban-Americans in south Florida are a prime example.

I'd be interested in knowing if law enforcement groups endorsed this new law or were they opposed to it? If they opposed it, it just further supports that this was a dumb political move for Brewer. It is stuff like this that swings law enforcement support in elections to the Democrats. If she is pandering to a narrow band of conservatives in her party, what has she accomplished? As a politician, she's shot herself in the foot twice -- once with Latino voters and maybe again with law enforcement.

But it did grab her an entire national news cycle for at least a day or two.

Palin, Bachmann, Brewer...a truly scary mix.

From HuffPo:

"The Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police has sharply criticized the legislation:

The provisions of the bill remain problematic and will negatively affect the ability of law enforcement agencies across the state to fulfill their many responsibilities in a timely manner.

While AACOP recognizes immigration as a significant issue in Arizona, we remain
strong in our belief that it is an issue most appropriately addressed at the federal level.
AACOP strongly urges the U. S. Congress to immediately initiate the necessary steps to
begin the process of comprehensively addressing the immigration issue to provide
solutions that are fair, logical, and equitable."

And while the older community of Cuban-Americans are in fact mostly Republicans, there is a new wave of younger Cuba-Americans who have registered and voted Democrat. This was highly noticeable during the Presidential election where Obama was able to win Florida with the help of said group.

I also want to keep in mind that although this sorry excuse of a Governor signed the Bill into law, it was those in the House and Senate in Arizona who wrote it and passed it.

The Latino vote will not forget those facts. And John McAin't better forget any support from this community.

[The_Lady_Snow]

CeQW1KArmko

[Corkey]

When and if this gets to a federal court, we all know it will eventually, it will probably be challenged on Constitutional grounds. The profiling in of itself is against the law.

[AtLast]

How anyone can believe that this doesn't constitute racial profiling is beyond comprehension!

There is a part of me, however, that thinks that this action in AZ might actually end up positive in the long run (no, not the bigoted legislation). How can we possibly keep our heads buried in the sand nationwide at this point? Obviously, the constitutionality of this act will be investigated and I think it will be struck down.

Also, maybe some common sense (and hopefully, compassionate) immigration reform will come out of this. We do need to deal with these issues. There are people being treated like nothing by large argri-business as well as human trafficking assbites that only have $ on their minds.

Frankly, I think all illegal’s here now should be granted amnesty, period! Let them become tax paying, citizens that don't have to live in fear and be controlled by drug cartels and gangs! My thoughts are that if the fear they have is eradicated, we would have hard-working citizens that in the end will bring solutions to the table for immigration reform that will work. They need to be legitimate participants in the process. They are here, have been, and have a lot to offer as has been true of every single immigrant group in our history.

I know there are high numbers of Latinos that are against amnesty because they came to the US legally. And the economic times have really stoked the fires between legal and illegal immigrants. I get that, but it just seems to me that there are answers here, mainly by the Latino populations in the US themselves and frankly, I think the powers that be need to focus on what the various Latino groups have to say- and we might get somewhere. Not to mention I am sick and tired of migrant workers being treated as non-human and want them to be a legitimate part of organized labor and be able to work under humane conditions with descent wages and benefits!! You bet, I remember Caesar Chavez! Long live his legacy and contributions.

Seems like compromises among all of us have to happen in order to make a difference with immigration reform…

Just another knee-jerk liberal, here…. But I just can’t handle the cruelty and degradation going on… people dying in truck and train cars en mass (just trying to survive) makes me sick! Also, I am a Californian that believes that the state was formed illegitimately in relationship to Mexico in the beginning. can't speak for AZ or other border states.. don't have the knowledge base.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yanno I hate to remind you all

It's not just the *latinos* breaking and entering into this country... We are just easier to pick out... Now how you think this may end in a positive note I dunno..

Here is what *I* am afraid is gonna happen

Some poor brown person (they could be any nationality) is gonna get pulled over, get upset, get scared, they are gonna get tagged as irate and not being cooperative and they will end up hurt or dead..

THAT is not something I think should happen before someone has an *A-ha* moment...

Also don't forget those latinos could have been there hundreds of years, like everything else this country took the land from them...

Funny how that is forgotten..

[Rook]

I changed the channel...
I aint watchin' cnn or msnbc today...
my BP's feelin fucked at the moment...
Got enuff with the Weather being all "wizard of oz".
And I do agree with Snow, that bitch lost any respectable words I could possibly give her simply based on Gender when she signed a Carte Blanche for Arizona Cops to go after anyone they felt was Illegal, considering how things are down there, My guess is anyone that's Brown & makes a Cop twitch....
Crypt Keeper's too fuckin' Nice for her...I liked the crypt keeper lol..
And , if it were a Wrinkly ole white haired Man, I'd still insult his ass if he did the same shit.....
Whatever happened to

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door

Oh wait... I forgot... It also says "Wait, stop....Not You .....or You ....and ..hmm, well, No, not you, step aside"

fuckin' kingkong sized balls...
I'll go, when they rebuild the fuckin Mayflower and go also....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Frankly

I find her to be a

*cunt nugget*

[Toughy]

I'd be interested in knowing if law enforcement groups endorsed this new law or were they opposed to it? If they opposed it, it just further supports that this was a dumb political move for Brewer. It is stuff like this that swings law enforcement support in elections to the Democrats. If she is pandering to a narrow band of conservatives in her party, what has she accomplished? As a politician, she's shot herself in the foot twice -- once with Latino voters and maybe again with law enforcement.


see my post #13 ...........I listed a couple of articles about police support and non-support .........plus a summary of the bill......

[evolveme]

And I do agree with Snow, that bitch lost any respectable words I could possibly give her simply based on Gender when she signed a Carte Blanche for Arizona Cops to go after anyone they felt was Illegal, considering how things are down there, My guess is anyone that's Brown & makes a Cop twitch....
Crypt Keeper's too fuckin' Nice for her...I liked the crypt keeper lol..


This was never about respect based on gender; it was about avoiding disrespect based on gender. Or age. This governor loses our respect solely based on her racist policies. To announce derision based on these other, peripheral and unrelated things opens a dangerous door.

If I disagreed with someone here, would it be okay for me to say something like: What a disgusting tranny? Or what an ignorant femme slut bag? Making these things personal is untenable to me. And anyone who knows me personally knows that I believe this. It is my personal politic.

Okay. Moving on.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This was never about respect based on gender; it was about avoiding disrespect based on gender. Or age. This governor loses our respect solely based on her racist policies. To announce derision based on these other, peripheral and unrelated things opens a dangerous door.

If I disagreed with someone here, would it be okay for me to say something like: What a disgusting tranny? Or what an ignorant femme slut bag? Making these things personal is untenable to me. And anyone who knows me personally knows that I believe this. It is my personal politic.

Okay. Moving on.


You could always start a thread about it!!:deepthoughts:

[SuperFemme]

See this is where folx think differently, when I see ms pretty calling that woman a crypt keeper her age not once sprang to mind..

You ever see that fucker, all mean and cackly and evil, that is how it connected with me.

So yeah anyways..

As for betrayal..

*laughs* that bitch betrayed my people first, you think I care if she is woman or not, you think she gives a shit about all the brown women?

No

wanna know how I know

She signed it with a smile and a nod to the camera with NO THOUGHT to her fellow sisters

women of this world, country, her state.

So I don't feel so not PC

Right?

I think this lady is the pinnacle of *women betraying women*, actually *humans betraying humans*. To suggest that you are somehow a racist because of your comments is kind of funny. Like an impossible math equation.

I agree with your mother btw.

[AtLast]

Yanno I hate to remind you all

It's not just the *latinos* breaking and entering into this country... We are just easier to pick out... Now how you think this may end in a positive note I dunno..

Here is what *I* am afraid is gonna happen

Some poor brown person (they could be any nationality) is gonna get pulled over, get upset, get scared, they are gonna get tagged as irate and not being cooperative and they will end up hurt or dead..

THAT is not something I think should happen before someone has an *A-ha* moment...

Also don't forget those latinos could have been there hundreds of years, like everything else this country took the land from them...

Funny how that is forgotten..

Yup... there are many immigrant groups, but the indigenous peoples remain hidden, marginalized and forgotten... always have been. Also, the indigenous nature of Latinos gets forgotten (all the way to South American and Spanish roots)... as well as all Native American peoples. Hell, simply 20th Century immigration history (during the teens and early 1920's- but do go back to the late 1800's), and the conditions that the Irish, Italian, German, Chinese, Japanese, etc. (and how radicalization was applied) ought to bring us to truths about WASP group-think! Add black slavery and we have a pretty sad picture! The bigoted mind-set of racial and ethnic thinking in the WASP ridden USA is actually alive and well. Which is the center of the damn problem!

Hummm... now what have many said about historical bias? and the different types of historians that gain respect and are quoted most often in the US?

What I get so frustrated about is that it just feels like we don’t just take action! How long do we put up with this stuff? Frankly, I don't have much faith in the masses to educate themselves- they don't give a flying fuck. How can we get to dealing effectively with this?

[SuperFemme]

The Gov. may have just signed this bill but problems in AZ have been going on for quite some time. The *Border Checkpoints* nowhere near the borders are stripping away Fourth Amendment rights from citizens every day.

YgHKrh4XIyE

[The_Lady_Snow]

The Gov. may have just signed this bill but problems in AZ have been going on for quite some time. The *Border Checkpoints* nowhere near the borders are stripping away Fourth Amendment rights from citizens every day.

YgHKrh4XIyE

Looking forward to more of this bullshit happening, LEGALLY...

How no one can see how this is outright racism I don't know..

Crypt Keeper she is not, he was not real, this scary bitch is... and THAT is worse...

[Soon]

Maybe this was posted before, but I found it to be a succinct article explaining this whole shitty and racist law. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/24/us/politics/24immig.html?src=me&ref=general)

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://nuestravoice.com/?p=6399

[apretty]

from the phoenix new times (the only local paper that's worth a read...)


Is Governor Jan Brewer ready to become the most hated woman in Arizona by signing SB 1070?

That's the query I directed toward Brewer as she stalked out of the Chicanos Por La Causa 41st Anniversary Dinner, the cries of "Veto the bill" echoing behind her. Brewer maintained the silence of a human artichoke with legs. (*no offense to human artichokes.*) (read more here) http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2010/04/jan_brewer_stomps_out_of_chica.php


from arizona immigration bill: "brewer speaks at Chicano event on Thursday" (4.22.10) as reported on, soychicano.com

A coincidence of timing turned an annual fundraiser dinner into a national political firestorm over illegal immigration Thursday night.

Long before the controversial illegal immigration measure Senate Bill 1070 was sent to Gov. Jan Brewer for consideration, she had agreed to speak at the 41st annual Chicanos Por La Causa anniversary dinner. She kept her commitment – despite the dozens of bill protesters that chanted and marched outside the Sheraton Phoenix Downtown Hotel.

Brewer has until Saturday night to decide whether she'll sign the bill, veto it or do nothing and allow it to become law.

If SB 1070 becomes law, it would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally and would require anyone whom police suspect of being in the country illegally to produce "an alien registration document," such as a green card, or other proof of citizenship such as a passport or Arizona driver's license.

Chicanos Por La Causa earlier this week sent a letter to Brewer stating that the bill would "open the door for racial profiling, create a hostile environment for Latinos regardless of their immigration status and force entire communities to live in perpetual fear of harassment."

At the dinner, organization board chairwoman Erica Gonzalez-Melendez urged Brewer to veto "the most hateful piece of legislation directed at Latinos."

"This law would further open the door to racial profiling of all Latinos," Gonzalez-Melendez said. "This law does not address the root causes of our broken immigration system. It only panders to the racist fear mongers of our state." Brewer spoke next, saying that she has heard the concerns about immigration reform.

"I am not prepared to announce a decision on Senate Bill 1070," she said. "What I decide will be based on what's right for Arizona."

As she stepped off the stage, some audience members chanted "veto, veto" while others tried to shush them. Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon also spoke to the dinner attendees, offering harsh words to Brewer and asking her to veto the bill.

"I understand you're plight. It's an election year. You're facing a tough Republican primary and you love your job," he said. "I ask you to love your state even more."

He asked her not to follow the route of former Arizona Gov. Evan Meacham and former Alabama Gov. George Wallace, who were criticized for racial insensitivity. He said the bill humiliates Arizona in the eyes of America and threatens the state's economic recovery.

Dozens of protesters not connected to the group gathered for a rally outside the hotel.

The Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights of Los Angeles organized a caravan of buses and vehicles that drove from L.A. to Phoenix on Thursday. Their group of about 50 is was among those at the hotel rally.

Jorge-Mario Cabrera, spokesman for the coalition, said they came to Arizona to show their support for Arizonans opposing SB 1070.

"Arizonans are definitely fed up with the problem of illegal immigration," Cabrera said. "Unfortunately Arizona, and particularly the Republican party, has chosen to go to the extremes in order to find a solution."

Veronica Iordanova, 25, of Phoenix, said she felt like she had to come down to the hotel and show her concern over SB1070."I see the irony in Brewer speaking to Chicanos Por La Causa when she still hasn't vetoed the bill," Iordanova said. She said she is concerned that the bill would result in racial profiling. "I also don't think we should be forcing police to focus on immigration when they should be focused on other things, like crime," she said. "And if there are civil rights challenges and the city is sued, that would be horrible economically for us."

Leonardo Mada, 14, of Phoenix, had spent the day protesting at the capitol before moving down to the Sheraton. He said he was also worried about what the bill would do.

"They told me that if police see someone with a dark skin color they are going to ask for their information, even if they are not doing anything wrong," he said. "That's racist."

[apretty]

actually this is the tempe (local) pastor, originally from sacramento that prays that Obama and gays will die. (and to be clear he's got like zero congregation.)

what? you can't believe we've got all this going on in one little state?!

i guess he didn't fit in in california. (what's left of my humor is now *totally* gone--i can't believe they're piggybacking this freak onto the issue at hand...)

more from pastor stevens:

here's one of MANY videos on youtube where he says all the most hateful words against the country and gays and some opposing church, methodists piss him off, apparently. (he wants the death penalty for gays, no i wish i was joking)

_im7wh2Hz7U

like i said, anytime anyone wants to come down and protest the racism, the homophobia, the general state of *arizona* i shall HOST you and yours in my home, so come on down to where the work needs to be done!!

(on the upside we have a sprinkles cupcakes just 2 miles from us, and a barneys!)




The Gov. may have just signed this bill but problems in AZ have been going on for quite some time. The *Border Checkpoints* nowhere near the borders are stripping away Fourth Amendment rights from citizens every day.

YgHKrh4XIyE

Looking forward to more of this bullshit happening, LEGALLY...

How no one can see how this is outright racism I don't know..

Crypt Keeper she is not, he was not real, this scary bitch is... and THAT is worse...

[Hack]

But I have the militia.

And a state constitutional amendment not only banning gay marriage, but also banning domestic partner benefits.

And the Detroit Lions.

So, I think we're even.





actually this is the tempe (local) pastor, originally from sacramento that prays that Obama and gays will die. (and to be clear he's got like zero congregation.)

what? you can't believe we've got all this going on in one little state?!

i guess he didn't fit in in california. (what's left of my humor is now *totally* gone--i can't believe they're piggybacking this freak onto the issue at hand...)

more from pastor stevens:

here's one of MANY videos on youtube where he says all the most hateful words against the country and gays and some opposing church, methodists piss him off, apparently. (he wants the death penalty for gays, no i wish i was joking)

_im7wh2Hz7U

like i said, anytime anyone wants to come down and protest the racism, the homophobia, the general state of *arizona* i shall HOST you and yours in my home, so come on down to where the work needs to be done!!

(on the upside we have a sprinkles cupcakes just 2 miles from us, and a barneys!)

[Soon]

But I have the militia.

And a state constitutional amendment not only banning gay marriage, but also banning domestic partner benefits.

And the Detroit Lions.

So, I think we're even.



I'll raise you one; my husband's state (FL) is the only one that bans adoptions by gays and lesbians outright.

Bans (of course) civil unions and domestic partnerships. (it seems like over and over they have done this)

And the governor (Crist) is a closet case who married a woman last year.

[Dylan]

What's next?


Little Yellow Stars Sewn On Jackets?,
Dylan

[Toughy]

This kind of racist bullshit masks the real problem. There is more violence around our southern border, more in CA and AZ than NM. Violence caused by drug dealers and human dealers. This shit has little to do with folks coming across the border to find work and a way out of the mind numbing poverty found in certain parts of Mexico and Central/South America.

The current bullshit speaks little about real immigration issues and even less about how to stop the escalating violence due to drug and human trafficking across our southern border.

[MsDemeanor]

This kind of racist bullshit masks the real problem. There is more violence around our southern border, more in CA and AZ than NM. Violence caused by drug dealers and human dealers. This shit has little to do with folks coming across the border to find work and a way out of the mind numbing poverty found in certain parts of Mexico and Central/South America.
Don't forget about our lax gun laws - there's an insane number of gun shops all along the border - it's nice and easy for the drug dealers to pop over and pick up weapons and ammo.

There's a facebook page for the Boycott: linkyloo (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=109283845773785)

DailyKos has an entry with information about a truckers boycott, plus other info and lots of links: linkyloo (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/4/24/860324/-Boycotting-Arizona:-Truckersthe-DK-Find-Common-Cause-%28Updated-X4%29)

[Toughy]

laughin...............

please don't make me go off about gun laws............my brain will explode...........

and mind all of you...........I come from a gun toting animal hunting family........funny thing is..........my family believes in wait periods, training, licensing, and regulation of ownership of weapons and are firm believers in the 2nd Amendment.....however none of them believe Obama wants to take our guns and ammo away......not even my brother-in-law's mother, who is a Palin supporter.....

I hope everyone watched Rachael Maddow's special on Tim McVeigh........the true enemy of this country is domestic and not foreign..........

[AtLast]

Looking forward to more of this bullshit happening, LEGALLY...

How no one can see how this is outright racism I don't know..

Crypt Keeper she is not, he was not real, this scary bitch is... and THAT is worse...

Very scary and this type of person is all around us jumping for joy at AZ's new legislation. And take note at congressional members like John McCain that actually authored federal legislation in the not so distant past that opposses the AZ bill! Oh, yes, that's right, he's up for re-election... in AZ!!! But, it isn't just AZ. How many border states (Mexican border) are going to be pushing for bills just like this one?

[AtLast]

laughin...............

please don't make me go off about gun laws............my brain will explode...........

and mind all of you...........I come from a gun toting animal hunting family........funny thing is..........my family believes in wait periods, training, licensing, and regulation of ownership of weapons and are firm believers in the 2nd Amendment.....however none of them believe Obama wants to take our guns and ammo away......not even my brother-in-law's mother, who is a Palin supporter.....

I hope everyone watched Rachael Maddow's special on Tim McVeigh........the true enemy of this country is domestic and not foreign..........

Yes, saw this special and it really brings your point home!

I have the same kind of background with gun ownership and although I don't own one anymore, I can't think of anyone in my family that thinks Obama want to take guns away either. And, sorry to say, some of them probably support Sarah, too. What you are say here - wait periods, training, licensing, and regulation of ownership of weapons and are firm believers in the 2nd Amendment demonstrates the key differences between the wing-nut zealots and people that are responsible gun owners and are not into stock piling AK-47's, and other assualt weapons, etc.

[apretty]

This kind of racist bullshit masks the real problem. There is more violence around our southern border, more in CA and AZ than NM. Violence caused by drug dealers and human dealers.

i wonder if there is more violence at the border... you hear that a lot, but i wonder, 'more violence' in comparison to who/where? i think it's another way to make *some* white people more fearful, more phobic...

*not denying that there's drugs and human trafficking along *both* sides of the USa/Mexico border (as well as within both of these countries).

[friskyfemme]

i wonder if there is more violence at the border... you hear that a lot, but i wonder, 'more violence' in comparison to who/where? i think it's another way to make *some* white people more fearful, more phobic...

*not denying that there's drugs and human trafficking along *both* sides of the USa/Mexico border (as well as within both of these countries).
I have a gf who lives in Phoenix but has family in Nogales(Arizona/Mexico) border. The violence is so bad there that her parents will not visit their relatves in Mexico. The murders, kidnappings, muggings in Mexico are blamed on the 'drug Lords'. The Mexican government appears 'helpless' to arrest and prosecute these 'terrorists'. People are fleeing from there (wouldn't you?). Human trafficers exploit people who fear for their lives and their families lives, to get them out of this terror. Each person pays between $5000 - $10,000 to be smuggled across our borders in vans, pickup trucks, 18=wheelers inside crates and bags. Most of these people are taken to 'drop houses' (sometimes as many of 30 people living there). These people immediately try to get work (general labor -cash). They are required to play approx. $1000 per mth a person to their landlord.
The reason these immigrants coming to the United States is to get established here, send money to their families in Mexico and to get their families across the order legally.

These folks are not 'criminals'. They are REFUGEES! They are fleeing for their lives. If the federal government 'Homeland Security' wants to REALLY protect our southern borders than provide military support to Mexico. Does the US government really think that people
want to leave their homeland? If we help the people of Mexico defeat their 'terrorists' they will want to stay in their homes. Mexico can begin to prosper again.

The cost of this SB1070 to the citizens of will be devasting to our already bleak economy.

I propose this:

The citizens of the United States petition their State Representatives and Senators to send troops to Mexico, to organize a refugee program that willl repay the cost to the federal fund to get the people here and settled during the intervention. Once the 'Mexican terrorists' are defeated the familes will return to their homeland.

The US citizens of the border states should not have to absorb the costs of protecting our country. I definitely OPPOSE the SB1070 bill. Movement is already underway in Arizona to repeal the bill. I do understand the fear of the US families on the border. As you should know by now the government controls it's Citizens by instilling fear. This is a NATIONAL SECURITY issue! The threat is not the people flowing across the borders.

IT IS THE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER THAT ARE EXPLOITING THEM.

I purpose a UNITED NATIONS investment in an INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL database that tracks 'TRUE CRIMINALS' and information sharing of individuals.

BOYCOTTING AZ is noit going to resolve the ISSUE. If FACT it will only create another 'knee jerk' reaction to a NATIONAL problem. GET INVOLVED in a Productive Solution!

[DapperButch]

our friendship ended months ago, she unfriended me on facebook. *real sad face* for questioning her on her lack of college degree, on declaring an official 'day of prayer' to fix the economy, and because i dared ask if the citizens pay for her health care (she wants to sue the feds to exempt az from having health care reform because she's crying poor...).

we're no longer bffs, can't imagine why.



http://content.comicskingdom.net/Tinas_Groove/Tinas_Groove.20100425_large.gif

[apretty]

friskyfemme:

have you read the entire thread?

i'm attending 2 rallies today (gay and straight) for the people against SB 1070.

i think boycotting arizona is just one way that people can get involved.

(prior to living here, i lived 29 years in san diego, ca (2nd generation) --i do have some experience with living in border towns. phoenix isn't even NEAR a border and they blame mexicans for every kind of crime conceivable.)

[friskyfemme]

pretty,

My response was not directed at you. I was only addressing your question of increased violence. There is increased violence in Mexico and in the US border cities. Those responsible for that violence are NOT the individuals fleeing here.
The 'racial profiling' is very much a ISSUE here in Phoenix Metro Area. Our Sheriff Arpaio has been doing this for years. After a federal investigation of racial profiling it continues.

I don't believe BOYCOTTING is the going to be helpful. The 'snowbirds' are leaving within the month and by the time they come back in the winter we will have elected another governor and repealed this SB 1070.

The immigrants that do 'sneak' across the border work to maintain a very low profile. They work for cash 'pennies on the dollar'.

Does the migration cause a strain on border states? Yes it does, but not necessarily for the reasons our government sites. The fact that this State-AZ is controlled by the Republican minority is appalling.

I am only pointing out instead of putting money an effort to round up and incarerate our Mexican neighbors, we need to 'help' them within their own country.

I agree with you about REPEAL of SB 1070. I don't think that most Arizonians and maybe the rest of the country understand the 'REAL' issue of white conservatives that are in CONTROL of the Arizona BIG BUSINESS-including insurance, farming, ranching, and tourism pushing for a Dictatorship through our 'puppet' Governor.

[yourexwife]

I feel for the 30% that don't want anything to do with this whole thing, and have a better opinion about it than the rest of the state.
:mohawk:

[apretty]

so, i'll see you at the rally?

i have a really big jan brewer -fascist sign that will be impossible to miss.

-Christine :)

pretty,

My response was not directed at you. I was only addressing your question of increased violence. There is increased violence in Mexico and in the US border cities. Those responsible for that violence are NOT the individuals fleeing here.
The 'racial profiling' is very much a ISSUE here in Phoenix Metro Area. Our Sheriff Arpaio has been doing this for years. After a federal investigation of racial profiling it continues.

I don't believe BOYCOTTING is the going to be helpful. The 'snowbirds' are leaving within the month and by the time they come back in the winter we will have elected another governor and repealed this SB 1070.

The immigrants that do 'sneak' across the border work to maintain a very low profile. They work for cash 'pennies on the dollar'.

Does the migration cause a strain on border states? Yes it does, but not necessarily for the reasons our government sites. The fact that this State-AZ is controlled by the Republican minority is appalling.

I am only pointing out instead of putting money an effort to round up and incarerate our Mexican neighbors, we need to 'help' them within their own country.

I agree with you about REPEAL of SB 1070. I don't think that most Arizonians and maybe the rest of the country understand the 'REAL' issue of white conservatives that are in CONTROL of the Arizona BIG BUSINESS-including insurance, farming, ranching, and tourism pushing for a Dictatorship through our 'puppet' Governor.

[Corkey]

I have a gf who lives in Phoenix but has family in Nogales(Arizona/Mexico) border. The violence is so bad there that her parents will not visit their relatves in Mexico. The murders, kidnappings, muggings in Mexico are blamed on the 'drug Lords'. The Mexican government appears 'helpless' to arrest and prosecute these 'terrorists'. People are fleeing from there (wouldn't you?). Human trafficers exploit people who fear for their lives and their families lives, to get them out of this terror. Each person pays between $5000 - $10,000 to be smuggled across our borders in vans, pickup trucks, 18=wheelers inside crates and bags. Most of these people are taken to 'drop houses' (sometimes as many of 30 people living there). These people immediately try to get work (general labor -cash). They are required to play approx. $1000 per mth a person to their landlord.
The reason these immigrants coming to the United States is to get established here, send money to their families in Mexico and to get their families across the order legally.

These folks are not 'criminals'. They are REFUGEES! They are fleeing for their lives. If the federal government 'Homeland Security' wants to REALLY protect our southern borders than provide military support to Mexico. Does the US government really think that people
want to leave their homeland? If we help the people of Mexico defeat their 'terrorists' they will want to stay in their homes. Mexico can begin to prosper again.

The cost of this SB1070 to the citizens of will be devasting to our already bleak economy.

I propose this:

The citizens of the United States petition their State Representatives and Senators to send troops to Mexico, to organize a refugee program that willl repay the cost to the federal fund to get the people here and settled during the intervention. Once the 'Mexican terrorists' are defeated the familes will return to their homeland.

The US citizens of the border states should not have to absorb the costs of protecting our country. I definitely OPPOSE the SB1070 bill. Movement is already underway in Arizona to repeal the bill. I do understand the fear of the US families on the border. As you should know by now the government controls it's Citizens by instilling fear. This is a NATIONAL SECURITY issue! The threat is not the people flowing across the borders.

IT IS THE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BORDER THAT ARE EXPLOITING THEM.

I purpose a UNITED NATIONS investment in an INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL database that tracks 'TRUE CRIMINALS' and information sharing of individuals.

BOYCOTTING AZ is noit going to resolve the ISSUE. If FACT it will only create another 'knee jerk' reaction to a NATIONAL problem. GET INVOLVED in a Productive Solution!

What you are proposing here is the invasion of Mexico by US troops or by UN troops? Do you think Mexico is willing to abdicate to either party? So we go to war with whom? War isn't the answer, never has been. If the people of the US were to stop paying for drugs that so readily flow over the boarder, then there would be no need for drug lords, and the people of Mexico could have economic stability in their own country.

The highlighted part of your post is what I am concerned with.

[Corkey]

I agree that immigration reform needs to happen, this just isn't the way to go about it.

[Rook]

True, if the U.S. would stop smuggling Drugs, quite a few Countries would have a decent Drop in their Crimes..
No Profit from Drugs = No Cartels...
Not just Mexico though, but also Columbia, Afghanistan, Panama, etc etc...
Although, other "rich" countries, like Netherlands, England, Germany etc etc, also "order" drugs...:blink:
And, considering just how easy it is to Buy Guns in the U.S. (and smuggle off the Border), we might also wanna consider figuring that out as well.
:fudd:
Then there's the Pharmaceutical issue, from somewhere the Legal purveyors of Opium have to get their Source, or else we wouldn't have Morphine, Vicodin, Oxycodone etc..
Oh, right, and lets not forget another Profitable Crime in Smuggling...
Exotic Animals {Someone once tried to smuggle a few "big cats" across U.S./Mexican Border}
And Human trafficking...
There's always something to smuggle, and profit from
:candle:

[leatherfaery]

This bullshit "law" is unconstitutional.


I snipped that because it stood out to me:

SNIP:I propose this:

The citizens of the United States petition their State Representatives and Senators to send troops to Mexico, to organize a refugee program that willl repay the cost to the federal fund to get the people here and settled during the intervention. Once the 'Mexican terrorists' are defeated the familes will return to their homeland. End SNIP



Well then who is going to assist mexico or any other country in sending troops here to help us with our violence problem ? We certainly have a huge one.

Believe it or not there are a lot of Mexican Nationals that want nothing to do with the USA. true story.

[friskyfemme]

I am sorry this is the way I wrote this. It is missing some key words (my dyslexia). I will fill in what I neglected to write.
SNIP:I propose this:

The citizens of the United States petition their State Representatives and Senators to send troops to aid Mexico in defeating the drug cartels , to organize a refugee program that will allow persons from the targeted areas to relocate here temporarily and the Mexican government to repay the cost to the federal fund to get the people here and settled during the intervention. Once the 'Mexican terrorists' are defeated the relocated familes will return to their homeland. End SNIP

I am not suggesting this is THE answer. I do believe in the power of the people. I do believe in humanity wanting to help each other. I don't think Boycotting Arizona is the answer. It will only hurt the underemployed, unpaid majority who is struggling to support themselves and their familes here in AZ and south of our border.

Sincerely, I hope that people do get involved. I look forward to positive resolutions.

[Corkey]

I am sorry this is the way I wrote this. It is missing some key words (my dyslexia). I will fill in what I neglected to write.
SNIP:I propose this:

The citizens of the United States petition their State Representatives and Senators to send troops to aid Mexico in defeating the drug cartels , to organize a refugee program that will allow persons from the targeted areas to relocate here temporarily and the Mexican government to repay the cost to the federal fund to get the people here and settled during the intervention. Once the 'Mexican terrorists' are defeated the relocated familes will return to their homeland. End SNIP

I am not suggesting this is THE answer. I do believe in the power of the people. I do believe in humanity wanting to help each other. I don't think Boycotting Arizona is the answer. It will only hurt the underemployed, unpaid majority who is struggling to support themselves and their familes here in AZ and south of our border.

Sincerely, I hope that people do get involved. I look forward to positive resolutions.

Still wont fly, here's why. You by asking congress to send troops, ours, to another country, for whatever reason are asking congress to invade a sovereign country. It isn't constitutional at all. How's this instead...Ask congress to make medical pot legal, get FDA approval for better safer drugs sooner, tell congress to pass sane immerigation legislation that doesn't profile americans already living legally in this country, and is humane in dealing with immigrants who for what ever reason are here without documentation.

ETA: Congress has no power to send troops anywhere, that is the purview of The President. Congress can only declare war, or not.

[Dylan]

I guess we've all forgotten the government pulled this same thing (telling us of all the violence in border towns due to drug 'cartels', immigration, joblessness of Americans, 'Mexicans taking all the good jobs', and all that) way back in the 30s when they were first trying to make pot illegal


Same Tactics,
Dylan

[leatherfaery]

friskyfemme,
I applaud your thoughts on how to deal with this issue although I don't agree, for several reasons. I do think in order to move forward these kinds of conversations need to occur and I appreciated your clarification.

I am still in shock about this and everytime some crap assed idiotic legislation gets barreled through I get alarmed about what will happen next and what groups are going to be the target cuz we ( collective) queers are a dice roll away from shit like this.

Again, thanks for taking the time to clarify.

LF

[Rockinonahigh]

Corkey..we have sent troops many place over the years for way less that whats going on in mexico...look where we are now!! The two wars that the Bush legacy left us in,that we are still fighting and prolly will for a long time yet.Why not help Mexico fight the cartells and other crime thats effecting both our nations.NO,I dont want us in a other war, but we should help some how at least better than we are doing now.I know if my family was in harms way I would be getting out to somewhere safe..wouldnt you?

[Corkey]

Corkey..we have sent troops many place over the years for way less that whats going on in mexico...look where we are now!! The two wars that the Bush legacy left us in,that we are still fighting and prolly will for a long time yet.Why not help Mexico fight the cartells and other crime thats effecting both our nations.NO,I dont want us in a other war, but we should help some how at least better than we are doing now.I know if my family was in harms way I would be getting out to somewhere safe..wouldnt you?

Hell no, I've been to war. If anyone has any illusions here, we are helping the Mexican government with eradication programs. There is corruption and flat out civil war going on down there. I don't want any of our troops in their war. We already assist their government to catch their drug lords. The elected leaders of Mexico are being killed, that isn't something our troops can stop. Let me be clear. Our troops in Mexico without the direct permission of the Mexican government is an invasion on a sovereign nation. We have enough troubles with our own made up wars we don't need another on our southern boarder. DEA, ICE and other US government agencies are helping the Mexican government, our troops belong at home.
I support legal immigration to the US, and I want to see a humane policy in regards to any nations citizens, that law that the governor signed isn't constitutionally legal, it will be repealed.

[UofMfan]

Corkey..we have sent troops many place over the years for way less that whats going on in mexico...look where we are now!! The two wars that the Bush legacy left us in,that we are still fighting and prolly will for a long time yet.Why not help Mexico fight the cartells and other crime thats effecting both our nations.NO,I dont want us in a other war, but we should help some how at least better than we are doing now.I know if my family was in harms way I would be getting out to somewhere safe..wouldnt you?

Mexico is not asking the US to send its troops a la "we need you to save us". The countries that the US is at war with right now did not ask for that either. One was invaded under false pretenses and the other has been destroyed while the US is looking for a man that has made the all mighty powerful US military look inept.

The US has a history of invading countries, Mexico doesn't need this kind of help. Mexico is a sovereign nation, it does not want the US congress to enact any measures where sending troops are involved.

Legalize drugs, and this will all end. As someone who lives in a country where that is also a problem, I know for a fact that we don't want the US saving troops here either. Supply and demand, is that simple. Win the war on drugs in the US and countries like mine and Mexico would have less headaches and issues with cartels and the crimes associated with them.

To think that sending US troops places is the cure for all simply blows my mind.

Rocking, I quoted you but this is a general statement to the thread.

[Queerasfck]

We went to that rally today at the Arizona state capital. There were lots of people there and lots of cops. I didn't see any people that were in favor of the senate bill 1070. It was very emotional when we first got there just reading the signs people had made, seeing the folks who brought their kids to particpate, people just banding together. Christine made an awesome sign which many people took pictures of.
Once we got home though thinking about the whole thing just makes me incredibly sad. I know everyone in this state is not a racist. Everything about this bill just feels so racist to me. I'm just so over it.

[SuperFemme]

_im7wh2Hz7U

like i said, anytime anyone wants to come down and protest the racism, the homophobia, the general state of *arizona* i shall HOST you and yours in my home, so come on down to where the work needs to be done!!

(on the upside we have a sprinkles cupcakes just 2 miles from us, and a barneys!)

I just pee'd myself with shame.

Can me and Cal still come over for some cupcakes and a tazing?

[Toughy]

There is no sane reason to send US or UN troops to Mexico.....to even suggest that speaks to hegemony, American Exceptionalism, white privilege, blah blah blah...just because we have a history of intervening, with military force, in other countries business is not an excuse for anything....Last I heard...........Mexico is not requesting military intervention from anyone.........

Stop. The. War. On. Drugs. Stop it NOW. Legalize all those drugs.......pot, white powder, brown/black powder/sticky stuff.....legalize all drugs........stop the CIA from secretly financing all those black ops by way of the drug trade of mostly opium and heroin..........no sane US citizen buys mexican dirt weed....we grow much better pot here....laughin....

As I said before........talking about the illegal drug trade and the violence around it, is THE red herring of immigration reform. Those things are not connected at all......

[Toughy]

killing a whole bunch of folks on both sides IS NOT the answer...................

the drug trade across the southern border is a police issue.....the war on terror and the war on drugs needs to go away.....terrorism/drug&human trafficking is not a military battle............it's a police battle.......

military troops and/or war is never ever ever the answer for drug/human trafficking and terrorism............these are matters best handled by law enforcement and courts..

[Rook]

I'm a little confused here..
Last time I checked, we had a Canadian border as well..
If for whatever reason, Obama suffered a brainfart and agreed to military enforcement, at least on our side of the Border with Mexico, what makes you think Drug pushers/human traffickers/Gun Smugglers won't just try a different Venue {if they're not already doing it}, Saskatchewan, Manitoba & British Columbia seem to have big enough borders to try stuff, no?
Then of course, there's the Pacific Coast, East Coast, Gulf of Mexico coast...
If you think they won't bother figuring how to smuggle things by Water, you need to spend some time on the East coast and west coast of Puerto Rico, Jamaica & Dominican Republic/Haiti...
So, what you're suggesting is, Military presence at all these Borders?
I think I've seen that somewhere...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Demilitarized_Zone

[Rockinonahigh]

Please note, I never said we should go to war..I stated that in my post.I come from a military family with many years of service,so I know what war can do..its bad plane and simple.I hope that one day we will never have another one and someone will finlaly get that we need to have peaceful world.
I also said that if my family was in danger I would do what ever it takes to get them out of harms way.This new law is causeing lots of probs and will cause more.I hope its put down and our goverment steps up to the plate and fixes this issue.Do NOT ever put words in my mouth I didnt say.I just hope other states dont follow this example.

[Canela]

I gotta speak.

What a heinous thing Brewer has done. I am definitely boycotting Arizona...was going out there this summer for a family reunion but now, I don't think so...My family and I are visibly hispanic, you think I'm going to take a chance with my kids?

One more thing---
Come live in the Rio Grande Valley for a month, smack dab in the middle of the cartel wars. See what it's like. Then if you want you can say we don't need any militia presence here (US) to defend our borders. (We are US, too.) There isn't enough law enforcement for the crazy, horrible things going on out here...you have no idea...who's going to jump in? The minutemen left early on...guess even gun permits didn't give them balls to handle this...yes, I said balls...

And don't get me started on legalizing drugs. That's just not an option. Look around. How many people do you know right now that use/abuse ANY illegal substance(s)? I bet you know several...we all do...you really want to make it easier for them to use? Really? Wow.

Please dont' speak for us out here. Don't even take my word for it...come on down...okay, at least check out the AP stories in your local bigcity paper. Then look up www.TheMonitor.com and see on a daily basis the things that are really happening out here...


I may be back...

[AtLast]

We went to that rally today at the Arizona state capital. There were lots of people there and lots of cops. I didn't see any people that were in favor of the senate bill 1070. It was very emotional when we first got there just reading the signs people had made, seeing the folks who brought their kids to particpate, people just banding together. Christine made an awesome sign which many people took pictures of.
Once we got home though thinking about the whole thing just makes me incredibly sad. I know everyone in this state is not a racist. Everything about this bill just feels so racist to me. I'm just so over it.

I certainly don't pin this on all citizens of Arizona, no way. This craziness is certainly not just in Arizona and that is why we all need to deal with these issues across the US. Wing-nut bigoted tea-bag, birther zealots are in every state. Believe me, I am not a very proud Californian when it comes to the immigration issues and our own nut-cakes here. Just thankful that soon we will say good-bye to Arnold... but, I doubt brown will be elected. We will probably have the GOP techie billionare elected.. well, she is buying the election.... And we do have to get our buns out there and be heard. Thanks for going to that rally. It is important that you personally gave your support.

[betenoire]

And don't get me started on legalizing drugs. That's just not an option. Look around. How many people do you know right now that use/abuse ANY illegal substance(s)? I bet you know several...we all do...you really want to make it easier for them to use? Really? Wow.


You know...people are going to use drugs regardless. How many people who don't use drugs do you know that say "wow, if it were legal I would TOTALLY do heroine ALL the fucking time!"? None, right?

People who use will use, and people who don't use won't use. Legalizing the stuff isn't going to make a spit of difference.

Let the crap get legalized. Let the government standardize it. Make the drugs themselves safer (ie - not cut with something really scary) and go all gung-ho about harm reduction so people can use the drugs more "safely". Sell the shit for cheaper than the dealers do - there won't be dealers any more once it's no longer profitable. Hell, legalizing it would curb a world of drug trade related violence. It'd make things safer for everybody involved, and even for those who are uninvolved. Christ, TAX the stuff.

[Jess]

If there is always a good side to every bad situation, then perhaps this latest "maverick " action on the part of AZ goverment will FORCE congress/ senate to take more immediate action toward the simplifying the legalization process.

I fear that until the Fed government steps up and handles the business of running this country properly, more states ( particularly border states) will try to take the reigns in their own hands and we can see how that is working.

What we can do :

http://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/5681/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=2481

[Canela]

You know...people are going to use drugs regardless. How many people who don't use drugs do you know that say "wow, if it were legal I would TOTALLY do heroine ALL the fucking time!"? None, right?

Neither you nor I don't really know that for sure do we? Do you want to take that chance?
People who use will use, and people who don't use won't use. Legalizing the stuff isn't going to make a spit of difference.
Again, you truly don't know that for sure. And of the people that do use, are you saying we should make it easier for them to use crack, heroin, ice, cheese and all the other variations of high addiction drugs to what, enjoy the freedom of purchase? You aren't thinking of the repercussions of those people who are already hooked. It would be like giving them a loaded gun. I mean really, picture your brother or sister on drugs, hooked, on the streets, then tell me again it would be okay to legalize that poison and let them have it cheaper to continue to indulge. That's not the way to eradicate these drug wars. You think the government isn't getting theirs? Where do you think all those vehicles and moneys garnished through arrests and checkpoints stops and what not don't benefit the government? It benefits local government as well as federal...everybody has their hand out...take a look at the public notices with intent to auction in Mcallen alone and see how many tote bags and bundles of monies sometimes in the 1/2 mil available for claim. lol..Nobody claims those. They go back into the system to fight "the war on drugs". Guess who pays taxes on that? Local gov who pays to federal in taxes or one way or the other...pharmaceuticals? They've been raping the people with no lube for that last several decades. What a crock. Legalize drugs, they freakin survive already and are an enterprising business even as the are illegal...making them legal will only make them more accessible. the lure of the drugs is that users make non users think they're cool. They are not. That's all it is. Movies like Scarface glamourized the trade and and now we have all paid the ultimate price and will continue to pay it, unless the Mexican government gets up off their lazy, cowardly behind and does something about it. Guess what, they won't. It's the way of the world over there...ever been? I grew up here on the border...I know what it's like...money talks...you should see the huge houses built out here, yet we live in one of the poorest counties in the US per capita...Hummers, Jags, BMWs, they are the biggest sellers out here and yet most of the purchasers are from where? You guessed it, Mexico...on the other hand, the housing market is going up very quickly out here...guess who is buying houses out here? Mexican nationals...yes, the cartels and the people who have a vested interest are making land purchases, funneleing their monies into real estate...(we don't say money laundering out here)...

Right now in the city of Reynosa, guess who runs the local police? The drug cartel. The foot soldiers (pistoleros) run the streets. they will block you in if you pass them up for going too slow and they will pull you over, investigate why you are in a hurry, and if your story isn't worthy, they will kill you on sight, and take your car, leave you on the side of the road and laugh about it over lunch. The police? They look the other way because they are bought and paid for by the cartles or risk losing their lives as is evident by the token sacrifice of the mayor of the city of Reynosa and his assassination last year to show the muscle of the cartel. Everybody was up in arms, local police, investigators and the judiciales (police in Reynosa). No one was prosecuted for this crime. This Is A True Story.
Let the crap get legalized. Let the government standardize it. Make the drugs themselves safer (ie - not cut with something really scary) and go all gung-ho about harm reduction so people can use the drugs more "safely". Sell the shit for cheaper than the dealers do - there won't be dealers any more once it's no longer profitable. Hell, legalizing it would curb a world of drug trade related violence. It'd make things safer for everybody involved, and even for those who are uninvolved. Christ, TAX the stuff.


The drugs will always be cut (wink* spoken like a a person with experience in street drugs)....whether you use or you deal, its not a good idea. People who use don't think about consequenses and people who sell drugs, don't care what those are...they are in it for the money...sad little people they are...they have no idea that fast money goes just as it comes and they don't see it...and if they do, they run to catch up to make more cuz greedy drug dealers always want more. They are no different than the government in my opinion. Lil Brother vs. Big Brother I don't know which is the more vile...think about that...if not for you, then at least for someone you care about. You may not think about it, but there are drugs dealer [kids age] in elementary schools and the like...and if you don't have kids, how about nieces and nephews...you really want to make street drugs readily available to them?

Legalizing would only bring on another set of problems, each bigger than the one now...and world trade violence will give way to some other trade soon enough...trust me, we have more important things to think about like getting deported and having one hell of a time trying to get back to our homeland like Cheech in that "Born in East LA" movie he was in years ago...

[Canela]

Re: Drug wars--and their effect on our borders...
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/mexican-37810-authorities-grande.html

Re: Wonderful Rick Perry and his great ideas about curbing the border crossings...spoken like a true beureaucrat...
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/program-37818-border-costs.html

Re: Fancy cars in the valley...
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/poor-37698-andy-cars.html

Re: Home Sales
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/span-37775-sales-style.html

Here you go, this is an opportunity to share your opinion on how to handle the border violence here in South Texas...(how desperate is that?)
http://www.themonitor.com/articles/seek-37819-border-input.html

And now, I want to apologize to the OP for the derail of this thread...unfortunately, generalized statements about ALL the US Mexico borders carry their own regional needs.....so not one idea will fit all areas....

[apretty]

littleshug: maybe you'd like to a thread on the subject of drugs, the pros and cons of legalization/government regulation vs. increasing the police/build a bigger wall or whatever you'd like. :)

'boycott arizona' and SB1070 are about *racial profiling* nothing more, nothing less. SB1070 is about creating a fascist police-state, dividing further an already fractured community in the state of arizona.

i understand that the topics of crime/drugs/economy/human trafficking are all *related* but they're frequently used to intentionally put blame on BROWN people which for some, justifies their underlying racist beliefs which leads to fascist laws like SB1070.

"never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." -MLK, Jr.

[AtLast]

OK.... feeling like I have to say something about the drug stuff. In thinking about this legislation and all of the aspects around immigration, what strikes me is how complex it is. When it gets into the drug/gang/cartel/arms and sex trafficking aspects and the violence... I know I need to hear what people deal with everyday in the areas hardest hit. And something I always see in these conversations is a very distinct difference between parents and non-parents. I might live a few miles from a city here in CA that has one of the highest rates of street murder among kids of color, but I don't get up every morning wondering if my kid will make it home from school. I didn't have this on me when I was raising my son even with the typical worries that parents have. A whole hell of a lot changes if you become a parent, no matter if biologically, via adoption, fostering, as a guardian or as a co-parent with a partner (Yup, making a point about all of the types of parenting!)

The fact of the matter is that illegal entry into the US (from both the northern and southern borders) involves drug and arms trafficking and then there are the sex trades that include children (all over the world).

All of this is intertwined in immigration issues. Its just there. Frankly, even if I agree with legalization of substances, I am not naive enough to believe that this will actually curtail the violence born out of drug use. The fact of the matter is that people under the influence make stupid choices often leading to violence. Impairment is impairment. people that are intent upon doing harm to others will do so no matter what drugs are legal or illegal. Look at alcohol use ...... how many times do we hear I was drunk as an excuse for behavior? How many people are killed each year due to alcohol related situations? How many rapes, molestations, etc? And at certain ages, alcohol is legal to use. But this doesn't change its effects or its addiction factors.

The crux of this whole matter isn't about drugs, its about racial profiling with idiotic, bigoted legislation like this one in AZ. A big part of this also has to do with big business and how it takes advantage of immigrant populations in order to increase profits- our labor laws. Directly related are the people smuggled into the US being treated like cattle and many dying awful deaths in an attempt to just find work.

We are at a critical time concerning immigration reform and need to figure out what will work now and in the future. The AZ legislation could become the catalyst for reform, finally. To me, the notion that some assbites have that all of the illegal immigrants that are here (which include non-Latinos as well) should be deported (or jailed) will solve the problems makes me nuts. A lot of these idiots base their opinions on economic statistics and how this population is draining resources (which is not based upon accurate data or considers the actual economic contributions made by most of these folks). The idea that deportation of from 11 to 15 million people would be cost effective is lunacy!! Total waste of funds that should go to real reform constructs that benefit all. A focus on this as part of immigration reform based upon the economic arguments is nothing more than an attempt to cover-up racism, plain and simple. But we all know that anything that smacks of amnesty will impede any federal attempt to deal with these issues. This will even be fought against by many organizations representing large numbers of Latino (and other) citizens that are pissed that they went through the proper channels in coming to the US.

This such a multi-faceted social and economic issue and is going to take a multi-faceted approach. Yet, it always gets bogged down and I think, is planted during election years! These mid-term elections coming up seem to me to be mainly about white anger and having a non-white president and the GOP taking back power in Congress. These jackasses aren’t thinking about the day to day lives and struggles the common citizenry are going through.

I feel that it is so important to stay focused with the core issues when it comes to immigration reform. Otherwise it continues to spin into oblivion and never gets dealt with in any meaningful way. We have to start somewhere and get somewhere!

[Canela]

littleshug: maybe you'd like to a thread on the subject of drugs, the pros and cons of legalization/government regulation vs. increasing the police/build a bigger wall or whatever you'd like. :)

'boycott arizona' and SB1070 are about *racial profiling* nothing more, nothing less. SB1070 is about creating a fascist police-state, dividing further an already fractured community in the state of arizona.

i understand that the topics of crime/drugs/economy/human trafficking are all *related* but they're frequently used to intentionally put blame on BROWN people which for some, justifies their underlying racist beliefs which leads to fascist laws like SB1070.

"never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal." -MLK, Jr.

apretty,

I apologized for my derail. I responded to someone who quoted only that part of my original post. Funny, I don't see you reply to his post to me.

[MsDemeanor]

I agree that the legalization topic should be a new thread. So far we've managed to stay fairly drama free, and I'm hoping to keep it that way. There's been a lot of good information and insight so far.

[Soon]

YouTube- Kristol praises new AZ immigration law


of course, the white guys cannot believe that a POC would be stopped due to their brown skin or Hispanic accent (with the one person who IS a POC tellling them, umm...no, they will!)

[UofMfan]

I gotta speak.

What a heinous thing Brewer has done. I am definitely boycotting Arizona...was going out there this summer for a family reunion but now, I don't think so...My family and I are visibly hispanic, you think I'm going to take a chance with my kids?

One more thing---
Come live in the Rio Grande Valley for a month, smack dab in the middle of the cartel wars. See what it's like. Then if you want you can say we don't need any militia presence here (US) to defend our borders. (We are US, too.) There isn't enough law enforcement for the crazy, horrible things going on out here...you have no idea...who's going to jump in? The minutemen left early on...guess even gun permits didn't give them balls to handle this...yes, I said balls...

And don't get me started on legalizing drugs. That's just not an option. Look around. How many people do you know right now that use/abuse ANY illegal substance(s)? I bet you know several...we all do...you really want to make it easier for them to use? Really? Wow.

Please dont' speak for us out here. Don't even take my word for it...come on down...okay, at least check out the AP stories in your local bigcity paper. Then look up www.TheMonitor.com and see on a daily basis the things that are really happening out here...


I may be back...

It is one thing to have US troops in US territory, quite another to suggest they be sent INTO Mexico.

I am well aware of what is happening there.

As for the legalization issue, I think I read somewhere that it should be discussed in a separate thread. I am game, anyone else?

[weatherboi]

i am totally up for the discussion of decrimializing marijuana :)

It is one thing to have US troops in US territory, quite another to suggest they be sent INTO Mexico.

I am well aware of what is happening there.

As for the legalization issue, I think I read somewhere that it should be discussed in a separate thread. I am game, anyone else?

[MsDemeanor]

Go for it UofMfan!

*heads to other room to make popcorn and grab comfy spot on sofa*

[SuperFemme]

Go for it UofMfan!

*heads to other room to make popcorn and grab comfy spot on sofa*

Follows MsD quickly to remove all children from the room and wipe the spaghetti-oh's off her seat on the sofa. :slapfight:

[UofMfan]

i am totally up for the discussion of decrimializing marijuana :)

Go for it UofMfan!

*heads to other room to make popcorn and grab comfy spot on sofa*

Follows MsD quickly to remove all children from the room and wipe the spaghetti-oh's off her seat on the sofa. :slapfight:

Ok, if I must... (I suck at starting threads, really)

[MsDemeanor]

Follows MsD quickly to remove all children from the room and wipe the spaghetti-oh's off her seat on the sofa. :slapfight:
Aw, how sweet of you!

[SuperFemme]

Aw, how sweet of you!

Now we can smoke a joint. I'm sick. :dance2:

[AtLast]

YouTube- Kristol praises new AZ immigration law (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo3wrwqHOZw&feature=player_embedded)


of course, the white guys cannot believe that a POC would be stopped due to their brown skin or Hispanic accent (with the one person who IS a POC tellling them, umm...no, they will!)

Especially THIS white guy!!

If there is always a good side to every bad situation, then perhaps this latest "maverick " action on the part of AZ goverment will FORCE congress/ senate to take more immediate action toward the simplifying the legalization process.

I fear that until the Fed government steps up and handles the business of running this country properly, more states ( particularly border states) will try to take the reigns in their own hands and we can see how that is working.

What we can do :

http://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/5681/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=2481

Thanks for the link. My hope is that some concentrated rallies with people from within and outside of AZ will take place. I'm game. I think it is important for non-Latino people to join forces and articulate outrage.

[Jess]

Especially THIS white guy!!



Thanks for the link. My hope is that some concentrated rallies with people from within and outside of AZ will take place. I'm game. I think it is important for non-Latino people to join forces and articulate outrage.

Absolutely! We sit half a country or world in some cases apart from one another and see this shit daily. Instead of yelling at the poor folks living with this shit, we need to be seeking ways we can help from our own little corner of the world! Amen!

[apretty]

AMERICAN arrested for driving while brown and not having the correct papers.

(sheriff joe is a disgusting piece of garbage that makes his own rules, constantly at odds with the POLICE department of phoenix. he's a criminal and his people chained a woman to her hospital bed, forcing her to GIVE BIRTH while in handcuffs.)

sSzxjd3B8Ik

[UofMfan]

AMERICAN arrested for driving while brown and not having the correct papers.

(sheriff joe is a disgusting piece of garbage that makes his own rules, constantly at odds with the POLICE department of phoenix. he's a criminal and his people chained a woman to her hospital bed, forcing her to GIVE BIRTH while in handcuffs.)

sSzxjd3B8Ik

I thought the LAW doesn't go into effect until August, what gives?

And yes, Sheriff Joe is all those things and more.

[apretty]

I thought the LAW doesn't go into effect until August, what gives?

And yes, Sheriff Joe is all those things and more.

sheriff joe makes his own rules, he says he's been "enforcing immigration" for 3 years. i'm sure that really means, pulling over brown people for 50 years.

[UofMfan]

And something I always see in these conversations is a very distinct difference between parents and non-parents. I might live a few miles from a city here in CA that has one of the highest rates of street murder among kids of color, but I don't get up every morning wondering if my kid will make it home from school. I didn't have this on me when I was raising my son even with the typical worries that parents have. A whole hell of a lot changes if you become a parent, no matter if biologically, via adoption, fostering, as a guardian or as a co-parent with a partner (Yup, making a point about all of the types of parenting!)


AtLastHome, as a parent, for 28 years, I have to say that I disagree with this statement. We can take it up on the other thread if you wish, as I don't want to derail this one. Perhaps I just need clarification. Thank you.

[AtLast]

Absolutely! We sit half a country or world in some cases apart from one another and see this shit daily. Instead of yelling at the poor folks living with this shit, we need to be seeking ways we can help from our own little corner of the world! Amen!

Yes, we do! Any other links to organizations putting together events (or analysis) is greatly appreciated...

Link for MALDEF (Mexican American Legal Defense Fund)-

http://www.maldef.org/

[Toughy]

I heard an interesting spin of this bill on the radio. It seems AZ has tons and tons of newly registered Democratic Party folks and guess what...... they are almost all brown........

So if you want to intimidate new brown voters........hey just put a rent a cop in an uniform and station him/her outside the polling place to stare at all the brown folks waiting to vote or better yet put a real cop out there and have him/her check every brown person in line to see it they have their proper papers..........

The governor of AZ was the Secretary of State before she was moved up and apparently she tossed hundreds of brown folks off the voter rolls..........She is right in there with that Harris woman down in FL around the 2000 elections.

[DeanRobert]

I to am a citizen of Arizona, Phoenix to be exact and I live in the Maryvale area. Those of you that live here know that Maryvale is predominately, about 80% Hispanic.

Please do not take what I am about to say and turn it into something else. There are parts of this bill that I agree with and other parts that I don’t.
I have sat here out of fairness to all of you and read each and every post.

No one has taken the time to post the actual bill on line for all to read. Those of you that want to take the time and read this bill you can find it at www.kpho.com.

Do I think parts of this bill can and will result in racism, yes most likely it will, there are bad apples in all of the police departments but there is a true need for Arizona to enact some kind of immigration legislation.

For example:

[1]Arizona arrests and deports the largest amount of illegal immigrants in the United States with estimates rising to over 450,000 the past 10 years. Right now it is estimated that there are over 40,000 a year that pass over our border.

[2]We spend over 300 million a year on just on medical, and social services for them. This does not count what we spend to educate their children. Our state budget is in crises and can’t keep supporting those that are not here legally.

[3]The last 5 police officers here killed in the line of duty, were killed by illegal immigrants that had arrest warrants on them. One of our largest and most respected cattle ranchers was killed on his own property by an illegal immigrant that the police followed for over 20 miles until he passed back into Mexico.

[4] The last 2 governors of this state have asked Presidents Bush and Obama repeatedly for help in securing our borders with out any response or action s coming from the White House.

[5] Arizona is the leader in human trafficking. The immigrants pay “Coyotes”, smugglers, to bring them across the border, many ending up here in Phoenix at drop houses where they are then moved onto other states and through out the country. The vast majority are held against their will while their families are forced to pay a ransom for their freedom. Many of the women are raped, their only other choice is to escape or hope to be freed by one of the local police task forces. Many die in the vast desert that they must cross to enter. Some die in police chases while packed into trucks and other vehicles.
Is this the price they must pay to enter??

So for me in closing, if you’re here legally and have gone through the process, or were born here then welcome you have nothing to fear. Every person in the world has basic human rights that is a given and they deserve to seek out and improve their lives.

P.S. Sheriff Joe deserves a whole other thread all to himself, he has so run his course as sheriff here, yet we still put him in office time and time again.

[Corkey]

The law is unconstitutional. AZ is usurping the federal mandates. There is no justification for racial profiling, and the way to change things is thru Federal legislation. Yes joe is another thread altogether.

[Jess]

I heard an interesting spin of this bill on the radio. It seems AZ has tons and tons of newly registered Democratic Party folks and guess what...... they are almost all brown........

So if you want to intimidate new brown voters........hey just put a rent a cop in an uniform and station him/her outside the polling place to stare at all the brown folks waiting to vote or better yet put a real cop out there and have him/her check every brown person in line to see it they have their proper papers..........

The governor of AZ was the Secretary of State before she was moved up and apparently she tossed hundreds of brown folks off the voter rolls..........She is right in there with that Harris woman down in FL around the 2000 elections.

Are these newly registered voters citizens or folks who have a drivers license? Not to get into a big bruhaha, but here in VA we allow non-legal residents to get a drivers license so they can vote, yet don't give them citizenship. Isn't filling out one set of papers as easy as filling out another? Democrats aren't doing anyone any favors with this fake sense off security for non-legal residents.

[apretty]

i can only hope that someone is kind enough to deport me back to california before i run into another well-meaning and misguided individual that thinks mexicans are "stealing their jobs".

(tip: immigrants pay taxes and they also boost arizona's economy by a BILLION dollars each year.)

[apretty]

hey there, your facts are one-sided. care to detail what immigrants do FOR arizona?

thanks!

I to am a citizen of Arizona, Phoenix to be exact and I live in the Maryvale area. Those of you that live here know that Maryvale is predominately, about 80% Hispanic.

Please do not take what I am about to say and turn it into something else. There are parts of this bill that I agree with and other parts that I don’t.
I have sat here out of fairness to all of you and read each and every post.

No one has taken the time to post the actual bill on line for all to read. Those of you that want to take the time and read this bill you can find it at www.kpho.com.

Do I think parts of this bill can and will result in racism, yes most likely it will, there are bad apples in all of the police departments but there is a true need for Arizona to enact some kind of immigration legislation.

For example:

[1]Arizona arrests and deports the largest amount of illegal immigrants in the United States with estimates rising to over 450,000 the past 10 years. Right now it is estimated that there are over 40,000 a year that pass over our border.

[2]We spend over 300 million a year on just on medical, and social services for them. This does not count what we spend to educate their children. Our state budget is in crises and can’t keep supporting those that are not here legally.

[3]The last 5 police officers here killed in the line of duty, were killed by illegal immigrants that had arrest warrants on them. One of our largest and most respected cattle ranchers was killed on his own property by an illegal immigrant that the police followed for over 20 miles until he passed back into Mexico.

[4] The last 2 governors of this state have asked Presidents Bush and Obama repeatedly for help in securing our borders with out any response or action s coming from the White House.

[5] Arizona is the leader in human trafficking. The immigrants pay “Coyotes”, smugglers, to bring them across the border, many ending up here in Phoenix at drop houses where they are then moved onto other states and through out the country. The vast majority are held against their will while their families are forced to pay a ransom for their freedom. Many of the women are raped, their only other choice is to escape or hope to be freed by one of the local police task forces. Many die in the vast desert that they must cross to enter. Some die in police chases while packed into trucks and other vehicles.
Is this the price they must pay to enter??

So for me in closing, if you’re here legally and have gone through the process, or were born here then welcome you have nothing to fear. Every person in the world has basic human rights that is a given and they deserve to seek out and improve their lives.

P.S. Sheriff Joe deserves a whole other thread all to himself, he has so run his course as sheriff here, yet we still put him in office time and time again.

[apretty]

Are these newly registered voters citizens or folks who have a drivers license? Not to get into a big bruhaha, but here in VA we allow non-legal residents to get a drivers license so they can vote, yet don't give them citizenship. Isn't filling out one set of papers as easy as filling out another? Democrats aren't doing anyone any favors with this fake sense off security for non-legal residents.

this reads as though you're racially profiling new az-dem voters. i'm wrong, right?

[Corkey]

Are these newly registered voters citizens or folks who have a drivers license? Not to get into a big bruhaha, but here in VA we allow non-legal residents to get a drivers license so they can vote, yet don't give them citizenship. Isn't filling out one set of papers as easy as filling out another? Democrats aren't doing anyone any favors with this fake sense off security for non-legal residents.

Wait a minute...non legal residents can't vote. They have to vote absentee if they are from a different US state or local, but non legal residents can't vote in the district where they are currently abiding, while having permanent residence in another local. It is against voting regulations for non US citizens to vote in any election.

[UofMfan]

I am sorry, I just have to add. Legal Residents are not allowed to vote, doing so is a Federal crime.

Just because you can get a driver's license it does not mean you can vote. You have to register to vote in order to get a voter's registration card. Such registration requires that you show documents that prove you were either born in the US or became a nationalized citizen.

This is a Federal law!

[Jess]

It's Federal law, but it happens..

http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110010814

Huge concern has been placed upon the access of drivers licenses and the "motor voter" laws made by Clinton. No one checks citizenship when they hit the "ok".

I am still not sure why non-citizens are given a drivers license without the pre-requisite drivers education courses we all had to take in high school.

I am not saying anything like toss em out. I am saying .. by all means make it easier to become a citizen. Have your background checked and sign in like my grandparents did at Ellis Island.

[Hack]

I was at the gym earlier this evening and caught a snippet on CNN about swastikas being smeared on the Arizona capitol building. I couldn't locate the story just now on the CNN website.

Any further developments?

[apretty]

I was at the gym earlier this evening and caught a snippet on CNN about swastikas being smeared on the Arizona capitol building. I couldn't locate the story just now on the CNN website.

Any further developments?

it was, in BEANS--i think they're calling it graffiti.

[Dylan]

I am not saying anything like toss em out. I am saying .. by all means make it easier to become a citizen. Have your background checked and sign in like my grandparents did at Ellis Island.

This is such a derail, but after your last two posts, I'm getting the impression you're under the impression becoming a citizen is just a matter of a few forms, and then voila!

Am I misreading you?

Also though, when your grandparents came through Ellis Island there were racist laws in place ensuring we didn't let certain groups of people into this country.


Dylan Dyrailer

[UofMfan]

It's Federal law, but it happens..

http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110010814

Huge concern has been placed upon the access of drivers licenses and the "motor voter" laws made by Clinton. No one checks citizenship when they hit the "ok".

I am still not sure why non-citizens are given a drivers license without the pre-requisite drivers education courses we all had to take in high school.

I am not saying anything like toss em out. I am saying .. by all means make it easier to become a citizen. Have your background checked and sign in like my grandparents did at Ellis Island.

It happens, it is illegal.

As a former Florida resident I know for a fact that they checked and do so even know, for proof of citizenship or legal residence before issuing a driver's license. I can only speak from experience in that State.

Also, in FL, non-citizens do have to take the same pre-requisite driving courses citizens do. I am wondering what State you speak of where this is happening. I find it difficult, albeit not impossible, to believe.

I wish it were as easy to become a US citizen as it was back in your grandparents day. Or maybe, I wish those people who did become citizens back then would no have selected memory.

[Jess]

This is such a derail, but after your last two posts, I'm getting the impression you're under the impression becoming a citizen is just a matter of a few forms, and then voila!

Am I misreading you?

Also though, when you're grandparents came through Ellis Island there were racist laws in place ensuring we didn't let certain groups of people into this country.


Dylan Dyrailer
The latter is very true. Why so many people slightly changed the spellings of their surnames. I do not disagree.

My point is, we have made things so much more complicated by "disallowing" folks that we have woven a nasty web for ourselves to be free of. It could have been as simple as filling out a name/ origin/ parental info, etc. But now, folks have to jump through so many hoops to become "legal" here.,

The ironies of our "system" glare at every turn. And ya know.. sometimes things "are" just as simple as the stroke of a pen. Clinton stroked one to make DADT a law. Bush stroked one to go do some shock and awe. Why can't Obama strike one to say that was some bullshit?

It really should be as simple as a few forms... should it not? What do folks of foreign birth have to go through to prove themselves "worthy" ?

Not arguing... just trying to see stuff for what it is, like most everyone out there. Giving government the excuse of "it's more complicated than that" will do nothing but continue to allow them to oppress everyone fighting for a little piece of the pie.

[Toughy]

The new brown voters are legal voters.........even the ones she tossed out were legal voters.....remember the hanging chads of FL and the purging of voter rolls in FL prior to the 2000 elections....same shit different state

As Corkey said.........non-citizens are not allowed to vote in any election anywhere in the country.

You don't have to take any kind of driver's education course to get a driver's license. (You took driver's ed so your parents would pay less than both arms and legs when they put you on their car insurance). You take a written test and a driving test. You pass both you get a license if you have proof of car insurance. What does citizenship have to do with a driver's license? They are separate things.

You don't have to have a driver's license to register to vote. If that was true most of NYC could not register to vote.

-----
DeanRobert............ya might want to go back and read more carefully.............I posted the link to the AZ legislature website that contained the official summary of the bill and you could also read the entire bill.

I find nothing at all in the legislation that has any merit at all...........nothing........nada.........immigrat ion is a federal responsibility.........

[Dylan]

You have to be a citizen in Texas to get a license (you *might* be able to have a greencard and some other paperwork, but I know you have to have some sort of something from social security...was just at the DMV last week and overheard a whole conversation between DPS Lady and GuyInFrontOfMe), and if you're under a certain age, you have to take a driver's ed course and pass that class to get a driver's license.

We also now list your race on your DL


Dylan Dyrailer II

[Jess]

The new brown voters are legal voters.........even the ones she tossed out were legal voters.....remember the hanging chads of FL and the purging of voter rolls in FL prior to the 2000 elections....same shit different state

As Corkey said.........non-citizens are not allowed to vote in any election anywhere in the country.

You don't have to take any kind of driver's education course to get a driver's license. (You took driver's ed so your parents would pay less than both arms and legs when they put you on their car insurance). You take a written test and a driving test. You pass both you get a license if you have proof of car insurance. What does citizenship have to do with a driver's license? They are separate things.

You don't have to have a driver's license to register to vote. If that was true most of NYC could not register to vote.

-----
DeanRobert............ya might want to go back and read more carefully.............I posted the link to the AZ legislature website that contained the official summary of the bill and you could also read the entire bill.

I find nothing at all in the legislation that has any merit at all...........nothing........nada.........immigrat ion is a federal responsibility.........

Actually as a resident of VA you do have to take drivers ed or wait til you are 18 to get a license. Sorry, you not being a resident wouldn't know that. and yes, higher insurance premiums are a punishment for not doing so.
Not saying you have to have a license to vote. Saying that with the passing of motor voter folks are automatically prompted to register to vote upon receipt of a license. That is not checked for citizenship at the level of the DMV office. Besides, if someone has a valid address, it is passed. We had many many cases of it happen in Richmond. So, please do not tell me what you have read when I know what I have seen. Up close, in person.


It's kind of hard to say what someone in a state feels that you don't live in and experience everyday. Reading the legislation doesn't always reflect the feelings of all the residents of that particular state.

[Corkey]

In every state I've ever been in, and there have been many, one needs birth certificate, ssoc card, two photo id's, one will do if other forms are present, ie: DD214, utility bill. One must present a valid birth certificate to register to vote to the DMV. It must have the raised seal of the state of birth. So if your state isn't following the Federal laws of voter registration I would suggest you bring it up when you see it happening.

[betenoire]

Honestly, though. I would probably faint from shock if so much as ONE white person gets randomly asked to show their papers.

Well - maybe in the early days of the legislation they'll ask a few white people. Make a good show of it. "SEE? We asked that there redhead to show us his birth certificate!" But that'll die down quickly.

I bet I, as a pasty red-headed Canadian with freckles, could probably go to AZ and stay there indefinitely and -never- get noticed. Sure, I've got a funny accent - but I'd just tell people I'm from Wisconsin.

[Jess]

In every state I've ever been in, and there have been many, one needs birth certificate, ssoc card, two photo id's, one will do if other forms are present, ie: DD214, utility bill. One must present a valid birth certificate to register to vote to the DMV. It must have the raised seal of the state of birth. So if your state isn't following the Federal laws of voter registration I would suggest you bring it up when you see it happening.


and the last time I went to renew my license and my birth certificate was question cause the damned "embossed" symbol was worn thin due to keeping it in my wallet for 40 friggen years.. I did. I figure if I was born on a naval base in SC and have to show 87 pieces of proof then everyone should. I also think it is ridiculous.

[Corkey]

and the last time I went to renew my license and my birth certificate was question cause the damned "embossed" symbol was worn thin due to keeping it in my wallet for 40 friggen years.. I did. I figure if I was born on a naval base in SC and have to show 87 pieces of proof then everyone should. I also think it is ridiculous.

While I think 87 is tad much, have you thought about getting a new one?
I had to because like I said, lost my home, took 6 weeks and $18 to the state of my birth, but it's raised alright. :)

[apretty]

Honestly, though. I would probably faint from shock if so much as ONE white person gets randomly asked to show their papers.

Well - maybe in the early days of the legislation they'll ask a few white people. Make a good show of it. "SEE? We asked that there redhead to show us his birth certificate!" But that'll die down quickly.

I bet I, as a pasty red-headed Canadian with freckles, could probably go to AZ and stay there indefinitely and -never- get noticed. Sure, I've got a funny accent - but I'd just tell people I'm from Wisconsin.

bian bilbray (R-Ca) says it's not racial profiling it's SHOES:

MATTHEWS: Like what, like what? Give me a non-ethnic aspect that would tell you to pick up somebody.

BILBRAY: They will look at the kind of dress you wear, there’s different type of attire, there’s different type of…right down to the shoes, right down to the clothes. But mostly by behavior it’s mostly behavior, just as the law enforcement people here in Washington, DC does it based on certain criminal activity there is behavior things that professionals are trained in across the board and this group shouldn’t be exempt from those observations as much as anybody else.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/22/brian-bilbray-immigration/

[Jess]

While I think 87 is tad much, have you thought about getting a new one?
I had to because like I said, lost my home, took 6 weeks and $18 to the state of my birth, but it's raised alright. :)

Yeah, finally. Old dogs don't so much like the new tricks. I could never figure out why when we hand over our old license THAT didn't count as a source of ID.. WTF? YOU issued it! Ya know?? der...

[UofMfan]

bian bilbray (R-Ca) says it's not racial profiling it's SHOES:

MATTHEWS: Like what, like what? Give me a non-ethnic aspect that would tell you to pick up somebody.

BILBRAY: They will look at the kind of dress you wear, there’s different type of attire, there’s different type of…right down to the shoes, right down to the clothes. But mostly by behavior it’s mostly behavior, just as the law enforcement people here in Washington, DC does it based on certain criminal activity there is behavior things that professionals are trained in across the board and this group shouldn’t be exempt from those observations as much as anybody else.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/22/brian-bilbray-immigration/

I know, when I read that crap I almost fell off my chair. How do these jokers get elected? Oh wait, by like minded people.

[apretty]

I know, when I read that crap I almost fell off my chair. How do these jokers get elected? Oh wait, by like minded people.

and that's in my beloved california...

i have to get outta here but i was recalling prop 187 in california from years ago, i think it was similar.. gray davis? will be back later :)

[Toughy]

I've had a driver's license for so long it's scary.

Jess........I assumed you were talking adults concerning driver's ed courses based on your entire post.

When I moved back to NM for a while, I took my CA license into DMV with a bank statement to prove my residence, took the written test and got a license.

When I moved back to CA (4 or 5 years later), I went to DMV, showed my NM license and a bank statement and utility bill....took the written test and they gave me a CA license with the same DL number I had when I had lived in CA before...........seems you are in the CA DMV computer forever....laughin....

[Corkey]

I've had a driver's license for so long it's scary.

Jess........I assumed you were talking adults concerning driver's ed courses based on your entire post.

When I moved back to NM for a while, I took my CA license into DMV with a bank statement to prove my residence, took the written test and got a license.

When I moved back to CA (4 or 5 years later), I went to DMV, showed my NM license and a bank statement and utility bill....took the written test and they gave me a CA license with the same DL number I had when I had lived in CA before...........seems you are in the CA DMV computer forever....laughin....

I still remember my DL #. Yep every time I moved back I got the same #.

[Jess]

I've had a driver's license for so long it's scary.

Jess........I assumed you were talking adults concerning driver's ed courses based on your entire post.

When I moved back to NM for a while, I took my CA license into DMV with a bank statement to prove my residence, took the written test and got a license.

When I moved back to CA (4 or 5 years later), I went to DMV, showed my NM license and a bank statement and utility bill....took the written test and they gave me a CA license with the same DL number I had when I had lived in CA before...........seems you are in the CA DMV computer forever....laughin....


I think it was a tad easier prior to around 2005 ( or there abouts) when they stopped using SSN as your DLN. DLN are now issued that aren't SSN. It was about this same time that proof of ID became more detailed. At least, in my state.

[Medusa]

Found this article on Huffington Post this morning:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/27/linda-greenhouse-arizona_n_553351.html

[MsMerrick]

T



You don't have to have a driver's license to register to vote. If that was true most of NYC could not register to vote.

...

Yeah really..

[AtLast]

Found this article on Huffington Post this morning:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/27/linda-greenhouse-arizona_n_553351.html

Thanks-

Interesting take on this in relationship to Barry Goldwater. Police State rings true for me...

[Corkey]

I think it was a tad easier prior to around 2005 ( or there abouts) when they stopped using SSN as your DLN. DLN are now issued that aren't SSN. It was about this same time that proof of ID became more detailed. At least, in my state.

I've had my DL since I was 16 years old, my SSN has never been in any state my DL #. Proof of ID became harder after 911, for obvious reasons. SSN numbers aren't supposed to be use for anything more than a tracking number for social security and the IRS. This is where our identity rights get muddled. For years now, medical, background checks and other forms now require your SSN. Your SSN is supposed to remain confidential, much like your mothers maiden name at banks and credit unions. Just makes identity theft all the more risky.

[Jess]

I've had my DL since I was 16 years old, my SSN has never been in any state my DL #. Proof of ID became harder after 911, for obvious reasons. SSN numbers aren't supposed to be use for anything more than a tracking number for social security and the IRS. This is where our identity rights get muddled. For years now, medical, background checks and other forms now require your SSN. Your SSN is supposed to remain confidential, much like your mothers maiden name at banks and credit unions. Just makes identity theft all the more risky.

Right. This is why I think VA along with the other states who used to use it changed their practices.

[suebee]

Interviewer: "Is the new law in Arizona racist?"

Guest: "Not if you're the right race." :clap:


A side note: As much as I disagree with this law, for anyone living in Arizona: a simple and inexpensive way to protect yourself by carrying the proper identification is to obtain a passport card. Unlike a passport, the passport card fits in your wallet like any other piece of I.D., and costs much less than a passport.

[Bit]

I'd be interested in knowing if law enforcement groups endorsed this new law or were they opposed to it?

Cowboy Hitler Arpaio is certainly in favor of it.


A side note: As much as I disagree with this law, for anyone living in Arizona: a simple and inexpensive way to protect yourself by carrying the proper identification is to obtain a passport card. Unlike a passport, the passport card fits in your wallet like any other piece of I.D., and costs much less than a passport.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Sue, but that just isn't true. NOTHING will protect Arizonans who have the wrong skin color or last name---nothing. They will be racially profiled just as they have been for the past century.

The only difference is that now it's legal, so the profiling will step up several notches.

I don't remember now who it was that said Arpaio's run as sherrif is done, but be CAREFUL what you ask for. He could be the next governor. Any state that could elect Evan Meacham could EASILY elect a rhinestone cowboy who says he'll make everyone "safe." He keeps getting re-elected as sheriff because the people who bother to vote believe him, so yanno... he's in your future unless a pretty huge group of people gets it together and votes him out.

[Martina]

i read the Linda Greenhouse piece. Thank you, Medusa. i kinda like the idea of everyone who wants to protest the law wearing a button that says, "i may be illegal."

Do you think people are going to expect police to stop folks randomly? If that starts, there are going to be some violent encounters -- and for what?

That was interesting -- in the article -- about how little stood between this country educating students who aren't citizens and not. So many of my students are not citizens. One of my seniors who isn't a citizen is going to graduate with a diploma this JUne. This is a Special Ed kid -- from Richmond. His brother got senselessly murdered earlier in the year. Not the easiest life. AND he has a learning disability. And guess what? He's graduating. AND he will become an auto mechanic. We should be grateful that he's here. How many of us could have lived his life and done all the has done so far even?

[The_Lady_Snow]

sSzxjd3B8Ik

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=122012934480325&v=info

[DeanRobert]

In response:

Apretty: You stated that illegal immigrants contribute over a billion dollars a year to the states economy. I could not find that statistic anywhere today but I did find that illegal immigration costs the state over a billion dollars a year in our criminal justice system alone. From the time they are arrested to the day they are deported it is handled in the following way. Once arrested an immigration hold is placed, meaning that no bail or bond can be posted, they are kept in our county jail. If they are found guilty and sentenced with jail time, they must serve that time in county, state, or federal prison. Once their time is served they are then released and re-arrested by immigration officers and the deportation process is then started. This process can take up to 2 years and in some cases longer to complete.
All of their expenses are paid for by our tax dollars. The expenses are housing in the jails, food medical, dental, eye, mental health care, clothing and 97% of the time their attorney fees. 2% don’t fight deportation and 1% pay for their attorney.

SB1070 is not entirely a new bill it amends portions of already existing statutes on the books that have been there for years now. They are simply adding to these statutes. I found a web site today that will help those of you that wish to understand this bill in its entirety with what is being added and what is already a state statute. If you will click on the below web link you will see the entire bill. What is printed in back is already state statute, what is highlighted in green is the statute that is be amended; the blue is the actual SB1070 bill.
What can be contested in the courts is written in blue, the rest of the bill that is in black can not be contested. Those statutes are already law and have been contested and found to be constitutional.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

So, I ask you the following question:
Where were your voices and protests when the original statutes were drafted and signed into law?

A new poll that was taken over the past few days sense the signing of this bill into law, has 70% of the people in the state for this bill and 60% polled nation wide are for or agree with this bill.

If you go back and look at the voting history of this state you will find that it is and always has been a republican state. When it comes to voting the republicans will vote, when it comes to a controversial bill the republicans COME OUT and vote in large numbers.
Our mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon today announced that he will file a suit in the courts that will be financed and paid for by private donations and if need be out of his own pockets. Many are already stating that if he does this, his political career here in this state will be over.

And yes I am being one sided on my posts simply because both sides of this issue needs to be put out there and not just the alarmists side. {And I use the word alarmists with a heavy heart.}

As I said before Arizona needs some kind of reform, Right now I am neither for this bill nor am I against this bill; I am standing on the line and waiting for something to make me take a stand to one side or the other.
I have friends that have been stopped by the police, and swear to racial profiling and have done so for many years now. I used to travel the I-10 south to Tucson and then back to Phoenix and did so for about 2 years on a monthly basis. I drive a F250 work van that has two seats and is sectioned off with a metal divider, the windows on the back and side doors have metal security mesh on them. I would have to say that more times than not I was pulled over by either a immigrations and border patrol officer or a state police officer and asked if they could search the back of my van and would I open the doors for them. They always stopped me for illegal positioning of a license plate. {It’s in my back window and not on the bumper.} After the first time I was stopped, I knew each time there after what was happening. Was I profiled? Yes I was. Did I mind? No I didn’t because I had nothing to hide. Did I ever receive a citation for my license plate? No I didn’t. hummmmm go figure!!

P.S. BIT: You are so right about sheriff Joe, he may just be our next governor. Boy, did you hit the nail right on the head there.

[AtLast]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=122012934480325&v=info

Thanks!

Economic boycotting of AZ seems to be picking up speed. When AZ refused to honor MLK's birthday, these nationwide tactics worked! This is NOT the first time that AZ has done this sort of thing concerning racist attitudes. I urge posters to research the MLK situation in the '90's.

Side note for the thread, not a response to your post: I have to note that statistics about illegal immigrants and costs to taxpayers is not the crux of the matter here. This law subjects all people, legal or not to not only possible racial profiling, but really says that every person in AZ is to carry proof of citizenship!

Today, Mexico (and I believe other Latin American countries) issued statements to their citizens that engage in tourism in AZ (which is quite lucrative to the state- and oh, by the way, Latin people do take vacations, not all are uneducated migrant workers as is commonly believed (there are colleges and universities, tech and professional schools in Latin countries!).

I just have to point this out when people start in with the costs to taxpayers due to illegal immigrants (not all of which are Latin) begin to be articulated. Where the hell do people think all of the money that is collected via payroll deductions on phony social security numbers goes? it goes into the SS coffers! And the person using that fake number is never going to collect that money!! There is plenty of evidence demonstrating that although illegal, most of these people indeed pay into various tax generated systems. Sales tax is another. Much of this data is well... unavailable due to the secretive nature of it. again, where do people think these folks shop for food, clothing and other goods? In stores! They also pay for college tuition, etc. via fake documents, etc. many take on other identities to be able to live and work here.

I am not going to say that I don't believe that illegal immigration is fine and dandy, or that it doesn't impact the US financially (and is related to a lot of crime). But, we don't really have the actual data on how much they actually put into our total economy. Those records don't exist!

The main issue with this bill is not the economic issues involved, it is about racial profiling and a state legislating a law that it cannot legitimately legislate. It is up to the federal government.

Don't even get me started on the big corporations that knowingly (and actively recruit) illegal immigrants to work for them for cheap labor. This whole situation has many guilty parties and not all of them are in the US illegally!

Some of the recent posts are looking like blanket statements that all Latin people in the US are here illegally (also, Latin people do not perform anything but low-skill, labor intensive work)- which is at the very core of the racist attitudes in this legislation. And there the basic question of its constitutionality and infringement upon Civil Rights extending far beyond immigration issues.

[apretty]

DeanRobert:

1. i'm guessing you get to stand comfy in the middle, lacking an opinion on this bill because you're nice and white. i'm right, right?

2. if you'd read this thread in it's entirety you'd notice links to facts and statistics that detail where immigrants contribute to society. you asking me to do the work for you suggests that you're either lazy or don't care to know what your opposition says with regards to immigration. (plus, the thread isn't even 10 pages.)

3. any statements you make with regards to immigrants costing the 'criminal justice system' a dime would be solved by, wait for it, DECRIMINALIZING the color of brown skin. there ya go, billions saved.

4. i do understand this bill in it's entirety, i have read this bill.

5. see page 1 with regards to your 70% statistics.

6. your presenting one side (while ignoring the issue of RACIAL profiling) because that's the choice you're choosing to make.

7. it would have been nice if there were more 'alarmists' in nazi germany, before they started shipping off jews to 'work camps'

8. being profiled because you drive a shitty car is NOT THE SAME/can't even compare with being profiled because of your RACE. did i just have to spell that out?

9. curious as to your TWO posts on this site, both in this thread, and your recent join-date.

10. i'm sensing that we've met before but it obviously wasn't a venue where we discussed immigration, you would have remembered that learning opportunity and introduced yourself. :)


In response:

Apretty: You stated that ...

[friskyfemme]

DeanRobert,

Thank you for providing the link for the SB1070. You are correct about the process for handling persons arrested for being undocumented and awaiting deportation. I don't know about the cost dollars. But I do know the costs of individuals awaiting deportation are paid by federal funds. These persons are generally housed in county jails and the revenue received by the county for these person is 2-3times the amount allotted for maintaining the average inmate. They are put in general population. This makes it profittable for the jails and the counties to house a 'federal prisoner'. Is this a coincidental to increase raids and arrests of illegal immigrants while budget cuts hit law enforcement? There is a high risk for the Detention Officers because no one knows how violent the inmate is or what affliations that these individuals have in jail with them. There is a risk for those here seeking a safe, quiet life thow in with those who are violent criminals. The jails are full of 'people of interest'. There is alot more layers to the recent bill.

Just saying...

[betenoire]

DeanRobert,

Thank you for providing the link for the SB1070. You are correct about the process for handling persons arrested for being undocumented and awaiting deportation. I don't know about the cost dollars. But I do know the costs of individuals awaiting deportation are paid by federal funds. These persons are generally housed in county jails and the revenue received by the county for these person is 2-3times the amount allotted for maintaining the average inmate. They are put in general population. This makes it profittable for the jails and the counties to house a 'federal prisoner'. Is this a coincidental to increase raids and arrests of illegal immigrants while budget cuts hit law enforcement? There is a high risk for the Detention Officers because no one knows how violent the inmate is or what affliations that these individuals have in jail with them. There is a risk for those here seeking a safe, quiet life thow in with those who are violent criminals. The jails are full of 'people of interest'. There is alot more layers to the recent bill.

Just saying...

Just to clarify, cuz I read your post several times and have had trouble getting what your driving at.

It sounds like you're saying that part of this bill is a conspiracy on the part of the local law enforcement + government to get more money for their jails out of the federal government - because the federal government gives money to the little jails that our housing undocumented people and gives them MORE money than what they would to house someone who is in jail for another reason.

Am I correct?

[DeanRobert]

You know I find one thing just totally unbelievable that is the way people just attack one another solely based on the color of their skin. When I look at someone of color I do not see hatred, I see a person.

To answer your questions Apretty:{ not that I have too.}

1. I do have opinions about this bill. I choose not to voice them here. I will choose a side when I see or hear something that brings all of this together for me. As to the color of my skin does that rally matter to you? Your skin color does not matter to me. This comment is totally racist to me, unbelievable.
2. No where in my post did I ask you to do any research for me. I am very capable of doing this on my own.
3. You use the wording “brown skin” maybe your so upset about this simply because the highest populace of illegal immigrants in the united states is of Hispanic decent and crossed of the border in one of the 4 border states. No other comment is required here.
4. I never once said that you had not read this bill nor did you not understand it.
5. Been there done that.
6. If you had read my post I do believe this bill will lead to racial profiling there are bad apples in all the police departments.
7. agreed too
8. First off, the shitty car that you refer too in my company vehicle. And yes I was profiled during that time maybe not for the color of my skin but by driving a vehicle that is often used in smuggling illegal’s.{ look at the shuttle companies that were just busted here. They used the same type of vehicle.}
9. I just found this site so hence the join date. Which I mind you that date is before this subject ever became an issue. As to the two posts here. This is a thread that I felt I wanted to post in. Knowing that what I was posting I would be attacked; just as you are doing to me now. Jezzz thought I was welcome to post in any of the threads. You have the right to your opinion just as I do to mine. So at this point lets agree to disagree. I will not allow you to bait me into a fight of words and anger.
10. ROFL, yes we have met and yes we did discuss many of your political views that night. In fact you were in a very heated discussion with my partner that night.


You didn’t answer my question in my post. So I will ask it again.

Where was the “brown skinned peoples” voice when the original statutes were being written and signed into law?

[DeanRobert]

The people in Arizona that are awaiting deportation trials are housed in a privately run prison in Florance. Yes the state receives federal funds, and whrere to the federal funds come from, us the taxpayer.

[apretty]

Where was the “brown skinned peoples” voice when the original statutes were being written and signed into law?


i'll respond to all your post tomorrow, but i am incredulous about this thought process, 'where was the brown skin peoples' voice...'

so what? you keep down a people long enough and they should just get used to it, move aside, what? i can't understand how what *was* then oppression, makes what is oppression NOW, okay? would you walk me through that, please?

thanks.

[suebee]

Sorry to burst your bubble, Sue, but that just isn't true. NOTHING will protect Arizonans who have the wrong skin color or last name---nothing. They will be racially profiled just as they have been for the past century.

The only difference is that now it's legal, so the profiling will step up several notches.


No bubble to burst Cath. Just sharing some info that might prevent someone being taken to a immigration detention centre if they ARE stopped.

[UofMfan]

You know I find one thing just totally unbelievable that is the way people just attack one another solely based on the color of their skin. When I look at someone of color I do not see hatred, I see a person.

To answer your questions Apretty:{ not that I have too.}

1. I do have opinions about this bill. I choose not to voice them here. I will choose a side when I see or hear something that brings all of this together for me. As to the color of my skin does that rally matter to you? Your skin color does not matter to me. This comment is totally racist to me, unbelievable.
2. No where in my post did I ask you to do any research for me. I am very capable of doing this on my own.
3. You use the wording “brown skin” maybe your so upset about this simply because the highest populace of illegal immigrants in the united states is of Hispanic decent and crossed of the border in one of the 4 border states. No other comment is required here.
4. I never once said that you had not read this bill nor did you not understand it.
5. Been there done that.
6. If you had read my post I do believe this bill will lead to racial profiling there are bad apples in all the police departments.
7. agreed too
8. First off, the shitty car that you refer too in my company vehicle. And yes I was profiled during that time maybe not for the color of my skin but by driving a vehicle that is often used in smuggling illegal’s.{ look at the shuttle companies that were just busted here. They used the same type of vehicle.}
9. I just found this site so hence the join date. Which I mind you that date is before this subject ever became an issue. As to the two posts here. This is a thread that I felt I wanted to post in. Knowing that what I was posting I would be attacked; just as you are doing to me now. Jezzz thought I was welcome to post in any of the threads. You have the right to your opinion just as I do to mine. So at this point lets agree to disagree. I will not allow you to bait me into a fight of words and anger.
10. ROFL, yes we have met and yes we did discuss many of your political views that night. In fact you were in a very heated discussion with my partner that night.


You didn’t answer my question in my post. So I will ask it again.

Where was the “brown skinned peoples” voice when the original statutes were being written and signed into law?

DeanRobert, you have asked this question twice, and although you haven't asked me directly, I will address it, as I find it mind blogging.

You asking this question is the equivalent of anyone asking: Where was the “gay people's” voice when the original statutes were being written and signed into law, regarding DOMA/Same Sex Marriage, etc?

Now I can change that question with many other minorities if you wish. At this time I am going to just leave it to see if sinks in.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Dean Robert.

I want to share something with you, it's personal, and a lil painful but maybe it will help you understand that just because they say they do things legally (and when I mean they, I meant border patrol or any cops) it can also lead to...

ready for this

LIES...

My mother till last year was not a US Citizen, she was legally residing here, but her original country of origin is Mexico.. She crossed them illegal perimeters many many a time during my youth...

Once, during them crossings, they got her, some border patrol guys, her and a couple friends.. They did not *detain* them at some building, no, no, no
they gave my mom and her friends special accomidations in the middle of some desert in Arizona..

*I* am a fucking 40 year walking reminder of that time for my mom. (mom is catholic does not do abortion)

So. with that tid bit out there....

I want to share something with you...

If you put down a people long enough can call them roaches, garbage, a burden to this country you will learn to just be quiet and avoid anything that has to do with any kind of law enforcement. (including voting) My mother is a strong ass woman, but lemme tell you nothing breaks her down like the sight of a cop, we talked a bit on her birthday about the AZ thing, I can hear it in her voice the terror.. I am so glad she does not live anywhere near that state..

When I was 15 my mother bumped a car with hers at church, in the parking lot, my dad was out of town on TDY, Arabia I believe don't remember why.

We hid, I shit you not my mother panicked, cause she thought the cops would take her we hid out at stores, and I finally talked her into going home. So you see it is easy to scare people, it's easy to make someone feel unwanted and unwelcomed, and it's easy to terrorize a people..

*I* personally, hate being pulled over, cops are right up there with clowns and spiders, they set off panic in me...

So your thoughts that people are being detained in pretty prison cells is not always true.....

What this woman has done, is put a target on people who are not *white*. So who are they gonna pull over?

Native Americans they have dark skin

Persians they too have dark skins

Chicanos they tooooooo have dark skin

when does it end? So what I see is unless you white.... You can safely drive around the state.. Hasn't it always been like this though?

It's a fucked up law Dean Robert....

How you don't see that is beyond me.......:candle:

[wolfwalker]

Has anyone considered what happens to you if you cross the border in some other countries illegally?

N. Korea jailed 2 hikers and journalists and it took the US govt. to get them back. china? russia? Iran? bet you are never heard from again.

there is not a damn thing wrong with wanting people residing in the country to be known about. ever consider who else is crossing the borders?

Only the USA does little about the illegal problem. I will give you a prime example of why people should be legal. get into a car accident with an illegal and see how quick they disappear and you will be left holding the bag of all the expense.

yes, we should work on a plan to get people legal but until that occurs. we should not give illegals the keys to the country.

wolf

[The_Lady_Snow]

Has anyone considered what happens to you if you cross the border in some other countries illegally?

N. Korea jailed 2 hikers and journalists and it took the US govt. to get them back. china? russia? Iran? bet you are never heard from again.

there is not a damn thing wrong with wanting people residing in the country to be known about. ever consider who else is crossing the borders?

Only the USA does little about the illegal problem. I will give you a prime example of why people should be legal. get into a car accident with an illegal and see how quick they disappear and you will be left holding the bag of all the expense.

yes, we should work on a plan to get people legal but until that occurs. we should not give illegals the keys to the country.

wolf

I have been in 3 car accidents..

None caused by people from other countries..

None had insurance...

So is it safe to say, that this whole hit and run thing is not just an *illegal immigrant* issue, how about it's an ass clown issue?:rainbowAfro:

[wolfwalker]

I have been in 3 car accidents..

None caused by people from other countries..

None had insurance...

So is it safe to say, that this whole hit and run thing is not just an *illegal immigrant* issue, how about it's an ass clown issue?:rainbowAfro:

I can also bet you at least knew the name of the person who hit you and their address.

wolf

[Apocalipstic]

Dean Robert.

I want to share something with you, it's personal, and a lil painful but maybe it will help you understand that just because they say they do things legally (and when I mean they, I meant border patrol or any cops) it can also lead to...

ready for this

LIES...

My mother till last year was not a US Citizen, she was legally residing here, but her original country of origin is Mexico.. She crossed them illegal perimeters many many a time during my youth...

Once, during them crossings, they got her, some border patrol guys, her and a couple friends.. They did not *detain* them at some building, no, no, no
they gave my mom and her friends special accomidations in the middle of some desert in Arizona..

*I* am a fucking 40 year walking reminder of that time for my mom. (mom is catholic does not do abortion)

So. with that tid bit out there....

I want to share something with you...

If you put down a people long enough can call them roaches, garbage, a burden to this country you will learn to just be quiet and avoid anything that has to do with any kind of law enforcement. (including voting) My mother is a strong ass woman, but lemme tell you nothing breaks her down like the sight of a cop, we talked a bit on her birthday about the AZ thing, I can hear it in her voice the terror.. I am so glad she does not live anywhere near that state..

When I was 15 my mother bumped a car with hers at church, in the parking lot, my dad was out of town on TDY, Arabia I believe don't remember why.

We hid, I shit you not my mother panicked, cause she thought the cops would take her we hid out at stores, and I finally talked her into going home. So you see it is easy to scare people, it's easy to make someone feel unwanted and unwelcomed, and it's easy to terrorize a people..

*I* personally, hate being pulled over, cops are right up there with clowns and spiders, they set off panic in me...

So your thoughts that people are being detained in pretty prison cells is not always true.....

What this woman has done, is put a target on people who are not *white*. So who are they gonna pull over?

Native Americans they have dark skin

Persians they too have dark skins

Chicanos they tooooooo have dark skin

when does it end? So what I see is unless you white.... You can safely drive around the state.. Hasn't it always been like this though?

It's a fucked up law Dean Robert....

How you don't see that is beyond me.......:candle:

Thank you so much for posting this Snow! I know it is very personal and difficult to talk about.

It tells the truth about how one family has interacted with the border guards and with the people who are supposed to protect us and why many people do not trust the police.

Until we all remember that we are speaking of people just like us who did not take leaving their families and homes lightly to come to the USA. Just like so many of our ancestors did to be hated just like they were. We have no more right to this land than anyone else does. We are a nation or immigrants. Read about what people said about the Irish, the Italians, the Polish when they arrived here...same exact stuff.

My heart breaks for the 1000's who year who don't make it, who die trying to get here to make a better life for themselves and their families.

This governor says she is on a mission from God to fix things, to stop illegal immigration, to stop partner benefits. I hope this will be a huge wake up call to the rest of the country that this is not acceptable, and that the Federal Government needs to step in. I am very sad that she was next in line to follow the former governor.

Love your fellow human, know that we are all One and that we all deserve dignity and respect.

This law is racist at it's core and need to to be struck down.

[Apocalipstic]

Has anyone considered what happens to you if you cross the border in some other countries illegally?

N. Korea jailed 2 hikers and journalists and it took the US govt. to get them back. china? russia? Iran? bet you are never heard from again.

there is not a damn thing wrong with wanting people residing in the country to be known about. ever consider who else is crossing the borders?

Only the USA does little about the illegal problem. I will give you a prime example of why people should be legal. get into a car accident with an illegal and see how quick they disappear and you will be left holding the bag of all the expense.

yes, we should work on a plan to get people legal but until that occurs. we should not give illegals the keys to the country.

wolf

Great, so you think this should be handled like North Korea does? Really? They need to be our example?

[Apocalipstic]

Also, a person can't be illegal. They are undocumented, not illegal.

We are speaking of people.

[Apocalipstic]

Sorry to burst your bubble, Sue, but that just isn't true. NOTHING will protect Arizonans who have the wrong skin color or last name---nothing. They will be racially profiled just as they have been for the past century.

The only difference is that now it's legal, so the profiling will step up several notches.


No bubble to burst Cath. Just sharing some info that might prevent someone being taken to a immigration detention centre if they ARE stopped.


Yes, you can take your papers with you everywhere and be stopped for them all the time. But what if it were you and every time you left the house you had to get your papers checked...sounds like North Korea or East Germany (the DDR).

[The_Lady_Snow]

I can also bet you at least knew the name of the person who hit you and their address.

wolf



In one instance no...

He did not know who he was....

Spoke perfect *legal* resident talk...

The other two, they ran.......

Stolen cars.

*legal* residents

[wolfwalker]

Also, a person can't be illegal. They are undocumented, not illegal.

We are speaking of people.

they are in this country illegally.

wolf

[UofMfan]

Has anyone considered what happens to you if you cross the border in some other countries illegally?

N. Korea jailed 2 hikers and journalists and it took the US govt. to get them back. china? russia? Iran? bet you are never heard from again.

there is not a damn thing wrong with wanting people residing in the country to be known about. ever consider who else is crossing the borders?

Only the USA does little about the illegal problem. I will give you a prime example of why people should be legal. get into a car accident with an illegal and see how quick they disappear and you will be left holding the bag of all the expense.

yes, we should work on a plan to get people legal but until that occurs. we should not give illegals the keys to the country.

wolf

Let me ask you a question, I am being really sincere here, did you not notice which countries you were using as an example?

Another question, do you truly want the US to be like those countries?

Haven't we been told time and time again how those countries are evil and how Human Rights, what little is there, are constantly being violated there?

And lastly, I have been in a few accidents with US citizens and some have taken off too, and it was their fault. Damn US citizens!

[apretty]

they are in this country illegally.

wolf

did you miss that part where brown skin is criminalized?

we all have the moral obligation to dis-obey unjust laws (socrates, thoreau, mlk, jr)

[The_Lady_Snow]

they are in this country illegally.

wolf


and you and I are queer...

and the same folx wanting the browns to be sniped are the same folks that want you and I..

OUT...

:pcthink:

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://us.cnn.com/2010/US/04/28/arizona.immigration/index.html?hpt=C1

[DeanRobert]

UofMfan, I was simply addressing and answering the questions that Apretty had asked me and in return asked her where were the vioces and protests when the orgininal statutes went into law several years ago. SB1070 is simply adding to these already existing laws. It was not met for all of you to answer a second time. {shaking my head} Keeping in mind none of you answerd that question.

I have heard a lot of horror stories over the years. I do not doubt that they happened or do still happen to this day It seems to me that since I am simply trying to voice my opinion here.
If I were to start a thread for those whom are in favor of this bill, you all would be posting your opinions there too. There are two sides to every thing that happens and I had not seen anyone trying to voice the other side.

I will state this again, as many of you just arn't comprehending what I had said. I believe this bill will lead to racial profiling.!

apretty: You asked me to walk you through this thought process. I am not speaking of oppression here. I agree that oppression exists to this very day.
You are very loudly voicing your opinions here and have made it very clear that you are of Hispanic descent. You brought into this the term “brown skinned people” not me. I am simply asking you, where were you or the Hispanic population voices and protests when the original parts of this bill were signed into law several years ago.
Maybe if there had been the protests and loud voices then we would not be here today as the state divided that we are.

I was born in Flagstaff and raised here. So for a little more than 40 years this has been my home. I have seen many changes in the valley and the state. Some for the good and some for the bad.
I sit here willing to listening to both sides of this debate I have not made a decision as to exactly which side I will take, and am trying to keep an open mind.

I was put on notice by several of my friends that come into this site and others that if I posted my thoughts and feelingshere I would be attacked and that is just what has happened.

To those of you that will participate in the boycotts think about this:

Don't buy that new car you want, why??? All of the airbags in that new car are manufactured right here in Arizona.

If you are in law enforcement or carry a tazer, don't use it, its manufactured right here in Arizona.

Thinking of buying a new computer, make sure it doesn't have an INTEL processor, yes they to are manufactured here.

[Corkey]

The people in Arizona that are awaiting deportation trials are housed in a privately run prison in Florance. Yes the state receives federal funds, and whrere to the federal funds come from, us the taxpayer.

Ah so it's big business to hold brown skinned folks in Private PRISON, for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Lovely. Does this not smack of Naziism at all to you?
"Those who forget the past are bound to repeat it." G.S.

[The_Lady_Snow]

UofMfan, I was simply addressing and answering the questions that Apretty had asked me and in return asked her where were the vioces and protests when the orgininal statutes went into law several years ago. SB1070 is simply adding to these already existing laws. It was not met for all of you to answer a second time. {shaking my head} Keeping in mind none of you answerd that question.

I have heard a lot of horror stories over the years. I do not doubt that they happened or do still happen to this day It seems to me that since I am simply trying to voice my opinion here.
If I were to start a thread for those whom are in favor of this bill, you all would be posting your opinions there too. There are two sides to every thing that happens and I had not seen anyone trying to voice the other side.

I will state this again, as many of you just arn't comprehending what I had said. I believe this bill will lead to racial profiling.!

apretty: You asked me to walk you through this thought process. I am not speaking of oppression here. I agree that oppression exists to this very day.
You are very loudly voicing your opinions here and have made it very clear that you are of Hispanic descent. You brought into this the term “brown skinned people” not me. I am simply asking you, where were you or the Hispanic population voices and protests when the original parts of this bill were signed into law several years ago.
Maybe if there had been the protests and loud voices then we would not be here today as the state divided that we are.

I was born in Flagstaff and raised here. So for a little more than 40 years this has been my home. I have seen many changes in the valley and the state. Some for the good and some for the bad.
I sit here willing to listening to both sides of this debate I have not made a decision as to exactly which side I will take, and am trying to keep an open mind.

I was put on notice by several of my friends that come into this site and others that if I posted my thoughts and feelingshere I would be attacked and that is just what has happened.

To those of you that will participate in the boycotts think about this:

Don't buy that new car you want, why??? All of the airbags in that new car are manufactured right here in Arizona.

If you are in law enforcement or carry a tazer, don't use it, its manufactured right here in Arizona.

Thinking of buying a new computer, make sure it doesn't have an INTEL processor, yes they to are manufactured here.



Dude..

No one is attacking you.....

Are we passionate? yes...

Jesus I get so tired of the fucking my friends said I would get attacked *whine*.. No one is picking on you, like you we state our voice and experiences..

Why people are on this site that are back hand warning folks is beyond me.... Why be here then?

end of my fucking rant..:rant:

[Apocalipstic]

I certainly am sorry if you or anyone feels attacked because I disagree with you DeanRobert.

But I have to ask, is this therapy? Are we trying to make each other feel good, or are we having a serious discussion here? Is the water too hot?

I agree that boycotting a state is logistically problematic, but I think the point was and is that we are opposed to this obvious example of racial profiling.

My airbags were manufactured in Canada by Union Auto Workers, By the way.

[PapaC]

Ah so it's big business to hold brown skinned folks in Private PRISON, for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Lovely. Does this not smack of Naziism at all to you?
"Those who forget the past are bound to repeat it." G.S.

TY Corkey, I posted that quote on Facebook just yesterday.

It's a good one.

[Diva]

Two years ago, I was pulled over for speeding. (After 25+ years of not having gotten a ticket, it was upsetting, to say the least.)

But the thing more upsetting than that? I had my BF in the car with me ~ a Latino transguy ~ who froze. Was He legal? Yeah. But His fear ~ putting His hands on His thighs (in plain sight of the officer so ~ I found out later ~ it wouldn't be assumed He had a weapon in His possession...........WTF?!?!) and kept His eyes straight ahead so as not to make contact with the officer. He didn't want any kind of confrontation as to why a Latino guy was in the car with a white woman. (Call me naive, but it never occurred to ME that there could BE a problem with something like that!)

Just writing this, I have a knot in my stomach remembering His reaction to MY getting stopped.......and I'm as white as they come (Scot/Irish), but it brought to me a new appreciation (and awareness) for what my Latino brothers and sisters feel about this AZ situation.

And the whole thing smacks of "Good ol' Republican white boy" mentality. It makes me sick.

[Apocalipstic]

Two years ago, I was pulled over for speeding. (After 25+ years of not having gotten a ticket, it was upsetting, to say the least.)

But the thing more upsetting than that? I had my BF in the car with me ~ a Latino transguy ~ who froze. Was He legal? Yeah. But His fear ~ putting His hands on His thighs (in plain sight of the officer so ~ I found out later ~ it wouldn't be assumed He had a weapon in His possession...........WTF?!?!) and kept His eyes straight ahead so as not to make contact with the officer. He didn't want any kind of confrontation as to why a Latino guy was in the car with a white woman. (Call me naive, but it never occurred to ME that there could BE a problem with something like that!)

Just writing this, I have a knot in my stomach remembering His reaction to MY getting stopped.......and I'm as white as they come (Scot/Irish), but it brought to me a new appreciation (and awareness) for what my Latino brothers and sisters feel about this AZ situation.

And the whole thing smacks of "Good ol' Republican white boy" mentality. It makes me sick.




Here, another example.

Think, what if it were me. What if I had to be afraid 100% of the time that I might get picked up and taken to jail or worse for my skin color.

What about if you had kids who always forget their stuff....what happens the day they forget their "papers"?

Do White Republican Children have to carry their "papers" around?

What if it were you? Your kid, your Mom, your boyfriend...YOU.

What if you ran to the corner store to get an ice cream and forgot your papers?

I have lived like this, in Argentina. When I was a kid during the Peron years and then military goverment when people dissapeared right and left, I had to carry my "papers" all the time.

Pretty creepy actually.

[little man]

There is no sane reason to send US or UN troops to Mexico.....to even suggest that speaks to hegemony, American Exceptionalism, white privilege, blah blah blah...just because we have a history of intervening, with military force, in other countries business is not an excuse for anything....Last I heard...........Mexico is not requesting military intervention from anyone.........

Stop. The. War. On. Drugs. Stop it NOW. Legalize all those drugs.......pot, white powder, brown/black powder/sticky stuff.....legalize all drugs........stop the CIA from secretly financing all those black ops by way of the drug trade of mostly opium and heroin..........no sane US citizen buys mexican dirt weed....we grow much better pot here....laughin....

As I said before........talking about the illegal drug trade and the violence around it, is THE red herring of immigration reform. Those things are not connected at all......

i'e always kind of enjoyed dirt weed. hard to find, though.

[Queerasfck]

apretty:[/B] You asked me to walk you through this thought process. I am not speaking of oppression here. I agree that oppression exists to this very day.
You are very loudly voicing your opinions here and have made it very clear that you are of Hispanic descent.

Awesome, by playing 'guess my girlfriend's race' you made her day. Thank you!

[UofMfan]

UofMfan, I was simply addressing and answering the questions that Apretty had asked me and in return asked her where were the vioces and protests when the orgininal statutes went into law several years ago. SB1070 is simply adding to these already existing laws. It was not met for all of you to answer a second time. {shaking my head} Keeping in mind none of you answerd that question.

I have heard a lot of horror stories over the years. I do not doubt that they happened or do still happen to this day It seems to me that since I am simply trying to voice my opinion here.
If I were to start a thread for those whom are in favor of this bill, you all would be posting your opinions there too. There are two sides to every thing that happens and I had not seen anyone trying to voice the other side.

I will state this again, as many of you just arn't comprehending what I had said. I believe this bill will lead to racial profiling.!

apretty: You asked me to walk you through this thought process. I am not speaking of oppression here. I agree that oppression exists to this very day.
You are very loudly voicing your opinions here and have made it very clear that you are of Hispanic descent. You brought into this the term “brown skinned people” not me. I am simply asking you, where were you or the Hispanic population voices and protests when the original parts of this bill were signed into law several years ago.
Maybe if there had been the protests and loud voices then we would not be here today as the state divided that we are.

I was born in Flagstaff and raised here. So for a little more than 40 years this has been my home. I have seen many changes in the valley and the state. Some for the good and some for the bad.
I sit here willing to listening to both sides of this debate I have not made a decision as to exactly which side I will take, and am trying to keep an open mind.

I was put on notice by several of my friends that come into this site and others that if I posted my thoughts and feelingshere I would be attacked and that is just what has happened.

To those of you that will participate in the boycotts think about this:

Don't buy that new car you want, why??? All of the airbags in that new car are manufactured right here in Arizona.

If you are in law enforcement or carry a tazer, don't use it, its manufactured right here in Arizona.

Thinking of buying a new computer, make sure it doesn't have an INTEL processor, yes they to are manufactured here.

OK so I am really trying here. But the underlined part of your post doesn't make any sense to me.

First you said it wasn't met (sic) for us, then you said none of us answered it. Forgive me if I come across as being stupid, I assure you I am not, but I am having problem with your logic there.

Also, as a side note, it seems to me that you want to engage only with apretty, at least this is my observation.

The bold part of your post seems to imply that we, the collective us on this thread, must be a bunch of morons because we and I quote, "just arn't (sic) comprehending what I had said". Truth is I got that loud and clear, along with all the other points you have made.

The red part of your post almost made me flinch, thank God for the ability to walk away and take a breath.

So what if apretty is? To my knowledge she isn't, but what do I know? And if she is, what exactly are you trying to infer with your comment? I really would like to know before I move forward with that piece of your post. I mean REALLY would like to know. Then you go on and ask the same question that I addressed. Clearly you are only interested in eliciting a response from apretty. If that is the case, why not take it elsewhere?

The yellow part of your post doesn't ring true to me. I may be wrong.

The blue part. Really? Are you kidding me? And here I thought we were engaging in a heated conversation. It looks from my side that you are the one who came in here with some sort of agenda. Again, my observation.

And as far as your advice to those who will participate on the boycott, I have to say this:

I have a laptop with a AMD processor, in addition, my nephew who works for Intel says they are manufactured in several places, so what is your point?

As for Tazers, they should be banned, so yay, let's boycott them anyway.

And excuse me for pointing this out, but airbags, like the Intel chip, are also manufactured elsewhere.

I say that if you are truly interested in debate, then come back and engage with us. But if your intentions are to elicit some sort of knee jerk response from apretty, and now some of us, then I say why bother.

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Artists-Against-Arizonas-SB-1070/114160971948532?v=wall

[Soon]

Arizona Legalizes Racial Profiling
(http://www.tolerance.org/blog/arizona-legalizes-racial-profiling?newsletter=TT042710)

Submitted by Sean Price on April 23, 2010

Hundreds of high school and college students gathered around the state capitol in Phoenix, Arizona, on Friday. They were there to convince Gov. Jan Brewer to veto Senate Bill 1070. These young protesters were disappointed though. Brewer signed the bill and instantly set back relations between whites and Latinos in Arizona and other parts of the country.

The law is designed to identify, prosecute and deport illegal immigrants. As outlined by The New York Times:

The police would be authorized to arrest immigrants unable to show documents allowing them to be in the country and the legislation would leave drivers open to sanctions … for knowingly transporting an illegal immigrant, even a relative. It expressly forbids cities from adopting “sanctuary” policies that restrict the police and public workers from immigration enforcement….

In other words, Arizona cops now have a green light for racial profiling—unless anyone seriously thinks that an Irish national with blonde hair and blue eyes who is in Arizona illegally will receive the same scrutiny as an Arizona-born American with darker features.

It was no accident that so many high school students protested the new law. They will be directly affected. Young people are often the chief targets of racial profiling. And this law will almost surely split up families. In many cases, young people who are U.S. citizens have one or both parents who are undocumented workers. These families already cope with enormous economic pressure. The Arizona law will almost surely ratchet up their misery. But since undocumented workers are often driven here by far greater dangers and economic pressures, the law is unlikely to do anything to slow down the flow of illegal immigration.

Opponents are lining up to attack the new law on constitutional grounds. But even if the challenges succeed, the poison has already been introduced to the state’s racial climate. Gov. Brewer argued that new methods of police training would keep police officers from abusing the law. “I will not tolerate racial discrimination or racial profiling in Arizona,” she declared. If that’s the case, she shouldn’t have signed a law that guarantees it will happen.

By the way, educators who’d like to discuss racial profiling in the classroom can use this Teaching Tolerance lesson (http://www.tolerance.org/activity/racial-profiling), which defines it and explains why the subject is so important.

-------------
P.S. Interesting range of post-article comments.

[Apocalipstic]

This is so sad.

and she says God told her to do these things.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This is so sad.

and she says God told her to do these things.


I can't imagine ANYONE's entity being about hate.... :|

[Gemme]

This is so sad.

and she says God told her to do these things.


Any time someone who is not a politician or person of influence says that, they bring the men with the white jackets. :blink:

[Soon]

Iowa candidate: Implant microchips into immigrants in country illegally (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100428/NEWS09/4280367/Iowa-candidate-Implant-microchips-into-immigrants-in-country-illegally)

[UofMfan]

Iowa candidate: Implant microchips into immigrants in country illegally (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100428/NEWS09/4280367/Iowa-candidate-Implant-microchips-into-immigrants-in-country-illegally)

I can't even get my head around that. Interestingly enough the first thought that came to mind is, how are you going to round them up to achieve this atrocity?

Then I thought of Nazy Germany, and last I thought of V, the series, only because I watched it last night:)

I mean, really?

[Jess]

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

[UofMfan]

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

It happens in the movies and communist countries. It happened a lot in Nazi Germany, if I remember my history correctly.

A free country, or at least one that prides itself in being one, does not asks for such papers.

This is not bullshit, this is my opinion.

[Soon]

Pima County Sheriff Calls Arizona Law "Stupid," Will Not Enforce It (VIDEO)
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/28/pima-county-sheriff-calls_n_555895.html)
Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik, who I am assuming is something of a master of the "complex and demanding craft of policing" seeing as how he's been a policeman for over five decades, begs to differ. Per Amanda Terkel, Dupnik called the law "racist" and "disgusting" and "stupid" and, in his "nuanced judgment" could not be enforced without mandatory racial profiling. Dupnik's reckoning of the legal issue is that he's just as likely to be sued for racial profiling as he is for not doing enough racial profiling, so he's standing pat, and will not enforce the new law.

[WATCH]

[Gemme]

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

I see your reasoning. I'll try to keep things simple also. Those who are in this country are still paying taxes, etc. So, really, it's no skin off my teeth if they are here legally or not.

However, if someone has come here illegally and is trying to save money to send back home so that the rest of the family can come over here, legally, then it's not just a simple case of 'send 'em back'. Very often, they've nearly died getting here to take advantage of what so many take for granted. I could not, with my twisted sense of morality, do that to someone. Humans have a right to live and, if one illegal person is sent back, it affects not only them but their whole family...not to mention they'll probably get their ass kicked in the process of being 'sent back' (like defective merchandise, no?) or even killed. I'm not down with that.

[Jess]

It happens in the movies and communist countries. It happened a lot in Nazi Germany, if I remember my history correctly.

A free country, or at least one that prides itself in being one, does not asks for such papers.

This is not bullshit, this is my opinion.

I used the "in the movies" statement to stress a point. Most other countries do ask for some sort of ID. Most folks who travel to the UK for example, go through customs. They show their ID/ reason for being there and move on. Folks aren't crawling in through tunnels. Does that make any sense at all?

[UofMfan]

I used the "in the movies" statement to stress a point. Most other countries do ask for some sort of ID. Most folks who travel to the UK for example, go through customs. They show their ID/ reason for being there and move on. Folks aren't crawling in through tunnels. Does that make any sense at all?

If you travel to another country you have to go through immigration, and yes, it makes sense in that setting. When you go through customs you have to show them your luggage. But how can you equate that to being asked for papers just because you look "illegal" at any time, anywhere?

I am not following your train of thought.

No, most other countries don't ask you for some ID just because they can while you are say, walking, driving, having a cup of coffee, or enjoying the sights at the Eiffel Tower. No, they don't.

The setting you speak of is completely different than what the Arizona law now allows. Do you follow me?

[Jess]

I see your reasoning. I'll try to keep things simple also. Those who are in this country are still paying taxes, etc. So, really, it's no skin off my teeth if they are here legally or not.

However, if someone has come here illegally and is trying to save money to send back home so that the rest of the family can come over here, legally, then it's not just a simple case of 'send 'em back'. Very often, they've nearly died getting here to take advantage of what so many take for granted. I could not, with my twisted sense of morality, do that to someone. Humans have a right to live and, if one illegal person is sent back, it affects not only them but their whole family...not to mention they'll probably get their ass kicked in the process of being 'sent back' (like defective merchandise, no?) or even killed. I'm not down with that.


I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

[Jess]

If you travel to another country you have to go through immigration, and yes, it makes sense in that setting. When you go through customs you have to show them your luggage. But how can you equate that to being asked for papers just because you look "illegal" at any time, anywhere?

I am not following your train of thought.
My train of thought is that in most other countries.. tunnels aren't dug for folks to burrow under. They DO go through customs.

No, most other countries don't ask you for some ID just because they can while you are say, walking, driving, having a cup of coffee, or enjoying the sights at the Eiffel Tower. No, they don't.


Because most have seen them when you walk through customs.


The setting you speak of is completely different than what the Arizona law now allows. Do you follow me?

Yes, i do follow. Do you follow me?

[Jess]

Even when I have traveled abroad, I have not been asked to show my ID when using my Debit or Visa cards. And yet, I have (several times) been in line behind a person of color here in the US and they are asked to show their ID, and, huh. I am not asked.

I insist they ask for purpose of verification. Why else sign the back?
Going through customs when traveling from country to country is not the same to me as traveling from one neighborhood to another in the state you live in.

Again, in foreign countries, you go in showing your ID. You don't go in via the back of a van.

[Gemme]

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I'm not sure this is true or, at least, that what the Embassy deems as being 'valid' is the same as what you or I or an immigrant might see it. I just don't think it's that easy.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

I understand your point. No one wants another 9/11. I'm not saying that no one should try to document folks. I disagree with the legalization of racial profiling, which is what this mess boils down to.

[Soon]

As a privileged (middle class, educated) white woman, I am even hassled at the USA border to go into your country to visit my husband. Oh my, the things they ask just to make sure I am not going to steal all of the USA's precious benefits and stay illegally. (He does not have the same level of interrogation--by any means--when crossing into Canada).

I cannot imagine what it would be like just to be targeted (once I am allowed admittance) to show papers based on my skin colour (going out to dinner/movies whatever!)...and that IS what would happen if I wasn't white. If my husband lived in Arizona, and I wasn't white, they could possibly stop me and ask for my papers solely based on my appearance and detain me until it was determined that I was not there illegally.


And, when I do visit, no, I do not carry documentation at all times. I cannot imagine the fear of people (visitors, residents, citizens!) who are not white who MUST carry the proper documents at ALL TIMES!

[Jess]

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

[UofMfan]

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.


No, this is not what "we" do. If you like I can direct you to plenty of valid sources that would rebuttal that statement.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Those "guys" got in to the US legally. Imagine that! And they got into the US legally even after the 1996 law which was a freaking joke!

They got pilot licenses because they passed the requirements to be pilots, they were not required to see if they were terrorists. That was the job of the CIA and FBI, at which they failed miserably, but that is a whole other thread.

Anthony McVeigh, I am sure you have heard of him, he is a terrorist and an US born citizen, go figure!

Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.

Again, had those terrorist been asked papers they would have shown they were legal US residents, so what is your point?

To bring 911 into this conversation is ridiculous. It is what the Bush administration and Republicans tried to do for 8 years and look where that got us.

Facts, and statistics show that most, if not all undocumented immigrants come to the US just for the very fact Gemme mentioned.

Few immigrants, legal or undocumented are terrorists. I have facts to back that statement.

[Gemme]

Jess, I think what UofMfan is saying is that the showing of papers at customs is fine and expected, but just driving down the road? When at the grocery store or pumping gas? Not so much. This would focus attention on all people that 'look' like they 'might' be illegal with no regard to location.

[UofMfan]

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

Just because you haven't heard it it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And ask yourself, why would any US citizen want to go into another country through the back door when they can go into virtually any country just with their passports, no visa, nothing?

This is not the same for those who want to enter the US. This is a privilege that few have. Never take it for granted.

[Jess]

As a privileged (middle class, educated) white woman, I am even hassled at the USA border to go into your country to visit my husband. Oh my, the things they ask just to make sure I am not going to steal all of the USA's precious benefits and stay illegally. (He does not have the same level of interrogation--by any means--when crossing into Canada).

I cannot imagine what it would be like just to be targeted (once I am allowed admittance) to show papers based on my skin colour (going out to dinner/movies whatever!)...and that IS what would happen if I wasn't white. If my husband lived in Arizona, and I wasn't white, they could possibly stop me and ask for my papers solely based on my appearance and detain me until it was determined that I was not there illegally.


And, when I do visit, no, I do not carry documentation at all times. I cannot imagine the fear of people who are not white who MUST carry the proper documents at ALL TIMES!

"at the border" is the big difference...

[Corkey]

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

I remember quite vividly during the 1960s young american men making a beeline for the Canadian boarder. Many are still there preferring not to come back to be put in prison.

[Soon]

"at the border" is the big difference...

Yes, but let's imagine that, once I am passed the border (after the fuckery I experience which is more often than not), and let's imagine my skin colour is not white and my hair is not blonde (which I am sure if it wasn't, the fuckery I experience would be tenfold or more), I would be terrified to not have my papers on me if he resided in Arizona.

As it is, I don't even give a thought to not having ID on me when visiting, but now I am giving it a second thought.

My point is, that, whether a resident, citizen, or visitor, the people who WILL BE targeted are NOT white and do NOT look like me. I would never be asked for papers of residency in that State b/c I don't look like the profile of an illegal resident. But, they say, profiling this is not? And, from what I understand, profiling based on race is illegal?

[apretty]

i don't want to live in north korea, do you?

The problem this country has in keeping track of folks is the many routes taken to enter. I have yet to hear of any American traveling into another country without passport through a sideways manner and then wonder why they got busted.

this was pretty big news august, 2009.

Former President Clinton Headed Home from North Korea with Journalists
Clinton Spokesman Says Former President Homebound, with Ling and Lee Onboard.

Former President Bill Clinton ended his surprise trip to North Korea today, bringing home the two Asian-American journalists who had been jailed in the secretive nation, after he helped negotiate their pardons.

Bill Clinton, along with Euna Lee and Laura Ling, touch down at Calif.
Clinton spokesman Matt McKenna verified Tuesday evening that Clinton "has safely left North Korea with Laura Ling and Euna Lee" and was "en route to Los Angeles where Laura and Euna will be reunited with their families."

North Korea's leader Kim Jong-Il today ordered the release of jailed U.S. journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee through "a special pardon," the country's state-run news agency reported Tuesday.

North Korea's Central News Agency said Clinton took a surprise trip to the country to negotiate Ling and Lee's release apologized for the two female journalists "illegally crossing the border and committing a grave crime against our nation."

Ling and Lee's families said in a joint statement they are "overjoyed by the news of their pardon."

link: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/International/story?id=8245688&page=1

[apretty]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Again, in foreign countries, you go in showing your ID. You don't go in via the back of a van.

wow that's really racist. what back of who's van? so should we target van-drivers? is there a certain type of van, a particular color of van we should be on the look out for? there's lots of mormon van drivers, do you think they want to be stopped and questioned about who they've got riding in their vehicle?

it's utterly irresponsible and misguided to suggest that racism is okay cuz i'll have some papers to show when i'm stopped, the point is that the bill is racist in nature, the bill already divides a fractured community--it stinks of jim crow laws and nazi germany. being white/passing for white doesn't give anyone the okay to ignore racist legislature--bigotry/hate/suspicion hurts everyone, erodes and divides its people.

[MsDemeanor]

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I'm on my way out for the evening, but I just had to stop by and laugh my ass off over this comment.....

[apretty]

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling.

i didn't think playing devil's advocate worked out well for you in the past, perhaps it's time to give it a rest when it comes to ANY thread that touches on race? it's disrespectful to 'play' at what many of us are *living*.

and also, forgive my skepticism, i'm having a super hard time thinking your posts are just about 'devil's advocacy' when you've advocated prior for waving the confederate flag as a symbol of southern heritage, and now here, a proponent of showing *papers* and suggesting immigrants arrive to this country, 'unlike americans', by van--that's really awful close to *othering* immigrants and saying they 'swam across', and other derogatory ways that racists refer to mexicans.

[Medusa]

Hey All,

I just wanted to come in here for a bit and gently remind folks that this topic is a heated one, and that there are some high emotions running through this thread. I think that's healthy and appropriate when dealing with political matters that have racist connotations.

I hope we can keep discussing the *issue* and not the person writing about the issue. Let's all make sure that we aren't being personal when addressing someone.

For instance, I think it is perfectly fine for someone to say, "Hey, that thing you said just now was really racist" and give examples of why they feel that way.

I think it is fine for the other person to respond, "Actually no, I don't feel that it's racist and here's why..."

What is not ok, is taking the conversation in a personal direction because other people are trying to participate as well and we want to talk about the *issue* and not JUST people's personal racism. If we need to talk about the racism (and clearly, we do...I think we can do that constructively). Ok?

This isn't a mod, per se, just wanted to make sure we stay on track.

In the immortal words of Ozzy Osborne, "Love you all: You're all fucking mad."

me

[Toughy]

It is my understanding that there are no border checkpoints where you have to show papers in any of the countries that belong to the European Union.............meaning you can go to Germany from France and not be asked for papers.

[The_Lady_Snow]

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.


So let's say we all go with your idea... Here we are all the browns carrying documentation around so we can *prove* we belong here as much as say.

You do..

Allow me to play devils advocate..

We are both from let's say....


Spain..

I happen to be darker, you happen to have light hair light eyes..

We both don't have our papers.... NONE...

*I* get pulled over, pulled out the car asked for my documentation, you don't get asked nothing cause well you just don't look it... Don't look like the type...

I get detained you sent on your merry way... So while I am detained I get the *special* treatment, kinda like my Ma did..

TADA come to find out, we are from Spain but have been residing here since 72 legally but this one time I forgot to bring the bulks of paperwork with me, and since I did not have THAT on me, now I have to tuck my horrific experience aside and worry about fucking suing?

FUCK THAT!

*You* have no idea what it is like to be pulled over by a cop who is having a bad day Jess.. Why? I am going to assume you are not of color, here is why I am assuming, cause you suggested we just sit back and take it and sue if we don't have documentation..

Really?? I belong here just as much as you do, I should have to be able drive a car without fear, walk the street without being hunted, cause frankly this is what this is, a witch hunt of sorts..

So no your *I am playing devil's advocate* falls a lil on the short side of justice.

Why?

Cause sometimes, some trigger happy joe do gooder thinks he is *Super Avenger* and may decide the day he spots an *illegal* that that *illegal* and his billy club have a date.. Yeah no thanks.... Suing ain't gonna bring Jose Luis Chacon back if he is mortally injured, no amount of fucking money is gonna bring that family their boy back, or brother, or husband.. If you are naive and think that won't happen, lemme tell you I laugh cause it happens now... *I* know...

[Apocalipstic]

Any time someone who is not a politician or person of influence says that, they bring the men with the white jackets. :blink:

I think about this so much. How thin the line is...if there is one at all...between being a religious zealot and being incredibly mentally ill.

Iowa candidate: Implant microchips into immigrants in country illegally (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100428/NEWS09/4280367/Iowa-candidate-Implant-microchips-into-immigrants-in-country-illegally)

OMG. People are crazy.

What's really interesting to me, is that in the movies... any foreign country official always asks "ve vant to see your PaPers". Is it just here that we aren't supposed to ask?
Perhaps because so many European countries "touch" each other, they are more interested in seeing who is crossing their borders. Perhaps, because we are so, oh, I dunno, separate, we are just supposed to allow anyone in at any time.

If the bottom line is, have your papers in hand when they ask for them then go on your merry way, then what is really the problem?

Now.. I will say I am playing Devils Advocate with this, as it seems to be a simple solution and good as hell reason to sue for racial profiling. IF you have proper documentation and get pulled over because "you are brown".. SUE THE FUCK OUT OF THEM. If by chance, you don't, then damn, maybe you should have paid attention to all this shit. IF you are here and are going through the process, then you will have some proof of that. IF you are here ILLEGALLY and don't have proof you are going through the process, then hmmm.. go home and start over.It's really that simple.

Fully expecting bullshit to fall out of this post. Because it is way too simple. Way too easy to see it for what it is. I say, beat them at their game. It's easy. Have your papers ready to shove ever so politely in their face, whichever state of citizenship you fall into.

I get what you are saying, but those movies were about Nazi Germany, the DDR and the USSR. Fascist countries. I don't want us to be that.

For me, I want the United States of America to welcome immigrants however they get here. No one would leave their home to risk death to get here if they did not really want and need a new life. The only people who have the right to complain in my book are the actual Native Americans.

When I was a kid in Argentina, I was a total space cadet and forgot my papers a lot. My parents were a wreck. It was a huge deal. Kids are often the ones targeted. What if Christie's son were in that situation and forgot his papers and got carted off to some camp and you could not find him. Can you imagine? This is what happens to people.

I used the "in the movies" statement to stress a point. Most other countries do ask for some sort of ID. Most folks who travel to the UK for example, go through customs. They show their ID/ reason for being there and move on. Folks aren't crawling in through tunnels. Does that make any sense at all?

To get to the UK by tunnel you would need truly heavy equipment :)

Yes, there is immigration, but you don't get asked for papers on the street. Different issue.

I see your point. I will also add that not every single illegal immigrant is here to send money back to their poor family. My entire argument is for those who aren't.

Anyone who approaches the US Embassy with a valid case to be a refugee is granted immunity. It's just what we do.

I think we ( in general) wish to think the best of anyone coming here for a "new beginning/ second chance". It is not always the case. Read: 9/11

Some of those guys somehow got valid pilots licenses. How does that shit happen? How do we document folks we slide through?

Not being in a border state struggling with such intimate issues, it is hard for me to be very compassionate. I try, but I also try to be compassionate for the folks who died at the hands of terrorists who were able to take charge of our planes. Ya know? It's a very precarious place to be in judging which is more humane. Asking for papers.. or assuming the good.


I have a friend who was here in the US as a refugee from Brazil for being persecuted for being Gay.

Fred Phelps and his gang went to count so that people who were here in the US under the same refugee status as this young artist would all be deported. He is in hiding now, I have no idea how to see him. I can only imagine how scared he is.

The US is actually very picky about who they give asylum to.

The people who bombed the towers came here legally and stayed longer, they did not come over a border illegally.

If this is about keeping us safe, why are we only worried about immigrants with darker skin? Why not Canadians, the Irish.....

Think about how bad things would have to be for you to leave your home, and walk with your family with only the things you can carry for thousands of miles, across international borders, mountains, deserts and rivers to get somewhere you can be safe and be a part of the great "American" dream and you find out the US is changing into a Fascist Police State...and that there will never be that dream for you. There will never be a fresh new start. Why? Because your skin is darker.

Will you really think about it? I am so not bashing you or arguing for the sake or argument. You seem compassionate about so many things, can you really say you feel none here? :)

[theoddz]

This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"?? :|

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Apocalipstic]

This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"?? :|

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~ :bouquet:


I heard on NPR last night that even Karl Rove and Jeb Bush thinks it is unconstitutional, the ACLU is bringing suit as well as many others.

[theoddz]

I heard on NPR last night that even Karl Rove and Jeb Bush thinks it is unconstitutional, the ACLU is bringing suit as well as many others.

Well, that's good and heartening to hear. I have my fingers crossed that this ridiculous law will be quickly overturned. :winky:

It just didn't sound right to me and seriously smacks of being unconstitutional.

It's....well.....Un American and seems to go against the very principles that this country was founded on.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Medusa]

June brings up an interesting parallel.

I did some research on my heritage just out of curiosity over the last few years. After finding several branches of different heritages for my family (that included Ouchita and Blackhawk First Nations, as well as Irish and Scottish descent, and even several African American ancestors), I decided to start researching each branch in order to get a clearer picture of who I am made of.

When I went into depth researching my Irish heritage, I came across an account of a woman who would have been some degree of cousin to me who came over here from Ireland during the famine in 1846 (or thereabouts). People were starving to death, there was no work, and according to what I read, this distant relative of mine was *alone* when she made the journey. She *also* apparently gave birth within a month of arriving here in America, which meant that she was HUGELY pregnant when she was crammed in steerage, rocking on a dirty, disease-ridden boat.

The accounts of what I found are pretty shady for a few years after she arrived but I did find that she somehow made her way to the Virginia area and worked as some type of servant.

There are a LOT of historical writings that talk about the foul treatment of "The Irish" (and many other cultures) who arrived here in America around that time. How they were shaved because of headlice, how they were exploited for cheap labor, how the women were often raped or ended up working as prostitutes to support themselves.

And honestly? "My People" haven't been here that long. Since 1846? Thats about 150 years...NOT a long time. A few generations at most.

I could be considered a white "anchor baby" if this country were full of brown folks in power who were using their privilege and racism to try to keep hold of their power like I see a lot of white people and "The System" doing.

I think that I would personally like to see the Tea Partiers, Republicans, White folks, or anyone else who screams "this is my country" the loudest do a little research on exactly where they came from. Because last I checked? This "country" was inhabited by Indigenous Peoples who were brown before a bunch of white folks started coming over here claiming they "discovered" a continent that had been inhabited by brown folks for thousands of years.

I would like to see all of us remember that this country was built on the premise of immigration and "a better life" for anyone who wanted it. Sure, the immigration system is broken in 100 different ways but a great many of us are only three, maybe even two or one, generation away from "Illegal Immigrant" ourselves.

[MsDemeanor]

Just an FYI....there seems to be a misguided boycott drive against AriZona Tea. That company was started by a couple of guys from Brooklyn, and it's always been in NYC.

AriZona Teal has zero zip zilch to do with the state of Aizona, it just has an unfortunate name.

[UofMfan]

This may be a dumb question, but if there's anyone here with legal background....

Could asking someone to produce "papers", PERIOD, in this country, be considered unconstitutional by way of being an "illegal search"?? :|

It just doesn't sound like it should be legally permitted, Constitutionally speaking.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Here is some more info on that:

http://www.nilc.org/pubs/news-releases/nr010.htm

[Apocalipstic]

I have never driven across the borders, I have always flown or taken trains, it seems to me when we flew, we showed our passports, just as we do in the states, but I don't recall having to do that when we bought tickets to go from Koln to Amsterdam, Paris to Koln.

Perhaps if we had been riding in a van, things would have been different. ;)

When we traveled to Mexico last year, there was a checkpoint to get into the neighborhood enclave on the beach we were staying at, and then when we crossed the Penninsula to go see some ruins. In all cases, the guards had Machine guns. It was an odd feeling to be somewhere that it was business as usual.

I will never go back to Mexico. Sure, it was beautiful, but when traveling from our rented house, we passed by so much poverty, shanty towns built out of whatever people could find. I have never witnessed anything like it here in the US. And I didn't feel like the money we spent down there was actually helping anyone that really needed it.

Is it our fault the Mexican (and other South American) governments are so corrupt and fucked up? No. But as a human being, I have no problem understanding why people want to come here to get away from it. Probably the same reasons some of my ancestors escaped from the crushing poverty of Ireland and Scotland via Steerage, which may have been the equivalent of a Van in the 1800's.

I wish we (the collective we) could put this into a human perspective. It's not like people from South America are doing this as a lark (coming to America), no one with other options would choose to ride in the back of an unventilated truck crammed in with dozens of others, or risk being shot or getting lost while crossing a desert unless they were truly desperate.

This mentality of "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away" makes me sick.


Alas, though you and I personally are not responsible for the poverty to the South of us, it is the fault of the US, both diplomatically and economically.

I don't have time to locate the sources to quote right now, but American Companies looted those countries and the US goverment has meddled way more than the CIA would have you know.

Also, sadly, there are places that poor in the USA, some of them in my state.

I agree completely that no one back in the 1800's or now takes leaving their home to come to the US lightly. I think it sucks to hear that so many people do not/did not welcome them.

[Apocalipstic]

Apoc -- You are right and I totally glossed over this. Let me see if I can get Kat in here, we have had this conversation in our house a few times and she is way more savvy on the ins and outs of international politics than I am. I'm all about the touchy/feely human stuff. :)

:) cool!

Most of the problems the US has now are self created which for me is why I makes me even more brokenhearted when people like you said think "I got mine, you need to stay the hell away"

[Kat]

I've read so many excellent pieces about the rise in "illegal" immigration from Mexico, resulting from the many inherent flaws in the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), signed into law by my buddy, Bill Clinton, in 1994.

Unfortunately, my powers of recall are virtually non-existent. But I do know that NAFTA essentially forced Mexico to import more agriculture products from the U.S. like corn, soybeans, wheat, etc. that they grow themselves just fine, but that happen to be HEAVILY subsidized by the U.S. government, and thus are much, much cheaper.This basically wiped out the already-struggling poor Mexican farmers, which is one of the primary causes of increased immigration in the last 16 years. Before Bill Clinton...I mean, NAFTA...you didn't hear about people dying in the desert in the hope of making it to the land of hope and dreams for a better future. Nobody was talking about building walls to keep people out, either. NAFTA definitely started the ball rolling...

(Pretty good summary of NAFTA and its flaws from CounterPunch this past January: http://www.counterpunch.org/gallagher01012010.html)

But the fact that Arizona has been one of the states hardest hit by the U.S. housing collapse has led directly to this crazy new law there. Folks in AZ have lost their houses at an alarming rate, and who is always to blame at times like this, when everything is going to hell? THOSE people -- "it's THEIR fault I don't have a job, it's THEIR fault my house has lost 75% of it's value! Them and the GAYS! Let's get 'em!" A story as old as time itself...

(Article from Salon yesterday about the British Prime Minister calling a constituent a bigot, but makes a broader point about how bad economic policies lead some people to lash out at others different from them, and also mentions Arizona: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/04/29/brown_immigration_dysfunction/index.html)

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you Kat! Yes indeed.

But US meddling goes wayyyy father back.

The US and US companies have meddled in pretty much all of South and Central America since there has been a US.

United Fruit Company, UFCO, owned huge tracts of land in the area of now is (to mention a few) the Bahamas, Cuba, Costa Rica, Columbia, Ecuador, Jamaica, Guatemala, etc. They built and controlled 100% of transportation and communication in these countries and established who ran them and who got to work.

The Panama Canal, we took the land from Columbia and created the Canal Zone, which only recently was allowed it's independence.

Cuba? Between UFCO and organized crime (Mafia), Cuba is now communist because of the US. Period.

Honduras?

Nicaragua?

Chile?

Argentina?

The CIA and the US government in my lifetime has been all up in coups and trying to run everything.

The raping of these countries has gone on for 200 years, and we now want to harass everyone with brown skin who "might" be from a country we destroyed for their papers. Papers some think it should not be a big deal for them to carry and use as examples Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union and North Korea.

I really am almost (heh) speechless.

OK OK, I actually could go on and on about why the problem of undocumented workers from Mexico, the Caribbean, Central & South America is the fault of the USA.

The US created the mess and the US needs to fix it.

The war on drugs in not the answer.

The war on undocumented workers not the answer.

War makes it sound like there is an enemy which should be defeated...but the enemy is and has been the US in this disaster.

Don't make me pull out my US Diplomatic History textbook now....;)

[UofMfan]

We could start a whole new thread on what Kat and Apocalipstic have brought up.

I have one author to recommend, Noam Chomsky, the man is a genius, if anyone wants to expand their horizons and see how far back this began.

[Apocalipstic]

We could start a whole new thread on what Kat and Apocalipstic have brought up.

I have one author to recommend, Noam Chomsky, the man is a genius, if anyone wants to expand their horizons and see how far back this began.

Or we could go back to my ill fated thread on why it is arrogant for people in the US to call ourselves "American", like we are the only ones who are.

Sorry for the derail! :)

I hope this new law is stomped out as unconstitutional as quickly as possible, and the people of Arizona can get back to their lives.

[Soon]

Immigration is Most Definitely a Feminist Issue (http://www.feministing.com/archives/020954.html#more)

[UofMfan]

Or we could go back to my ill fated thread on why it is arrogant for people in the US to call ourselves "American", like we are the only ones who are.

Sorry for the derail! :)

I hope this new law is stomped out as unconstitutional as quickly as possible, and the people of Arizona can get back to their lives.

Oh God no I almost lost my lunch in that thread.

[Apocalipstic]

Immigration is Most Definitely a Feminist Issue (http://www.feministing.com/archives/020954.html#more)

What a great article, thank you so much for posting it. I have been so angered by all te other elements of this, that I have forgotten the feminist angle and how women are more targeted and way more likely to be raped.

Also, it talks about the history of the Southwest.

Very interesting! Thanks again!

[Andrew, Jr.]

It was announced on the local 5pm news here that the same law that was signed in Ariz. is being considered to be a new law in Maryland. There is going to be a poll taken by the state senate next week. Fuck. :argue:

[Dean Thoreau]

i love noam chomsky.....thank god he is not in arizona :)

I don't understand....why do people automatically assume that illegal immigrant= Hispanic person????

there are plenty of canadians who r living in the USA illegally to avoid taxes, or because they have not paid their taxes,,,plenty of individuals from ireland, germany, austria, korea, china, vietnam, ....

well anyway, I am not fond of the law, but something needs to be done to stop the influx of illegal immigrants brought in to the USA by corporations so they can pay slave wages and exploit workers; tho i do think it would be better to fine the corporations so much they have to lower their stock dividends....but John McCain would not like that,,,his wife might lower his allowance.

[Apocalipstic]

i love noam chomsky.....thank god he is not in arizona :)

I don't understand....why do people automatically assume that illegal immigrant= Hispanic person????

there are plenty of canadians who r living in the USA illegally to avoid taxes, or because they have not paid their taxes,,,plenty of individuals from ireland, germany, austria, korea, china, vietnam, ....

well anyway, I am not fond of the law, but something needs to be done to stop the influx of illegal immigrants brought in to the USA by corporations so they can pay slave wages and exploit workers; tho i do think it would be better to fine the corporations so much they have to lower their stock dividends....but John McCain would not like that,,,his wife might lower his allowance.


Very good point! There are undocumented workers from all over.

I don't know about Arizona, but in my state they don't pull over anyone for looking Canadian though.


I do not agree that we need to stop people from immigrating to the US, but I do agree that the huge corporations need to be fined for their hiring practices and their penchant for using indentured slaves.

[BornBronson]

I won't be boycotting them.Things got so bad,specially near the borders that something had to be done.Gov.Brewer did what she thought was necessary in order to gain attention to this serious immigration problem,because it is a huge problem in this county.God knows that Mr.Obama isn't doing much to solve it,well,he might if it gets him another 4 years in office.Actually,that may be what he's planning now.Oh,to have the latino vote,good call Mr.Obama.

We as Americans have to go by the law,what is so wrong with wanting people to go by the law?.Yes,there will be a few racist assholes out there,but you can't say the every law officer in Arizona now is a racist cop because he or she is pulling over those they suspect are in this country illegally,they are just doing their jobs,right?,right.

I have Mexican blood running through my veins.I have black hair and brown eyes and skin.If I get pulled over in Arizona someday because of that,trust me,I will have my camera rolling and I will be taking names and badge numbers.The lawyers will love me.But I have this gut instinct that they'll be having fun regardless if that day ever comes.

But I do understand why the good state of Arizona was 'forced' into this law.

This is just how I feel and I know not everyone will feel the same way,so be it.

[apretty]

ANYway....

[The_Lady_Snow]

I won't be boycotting them.Things got so bad,specially near the borders that something had to be done.Gov.Brewer did what she thought was necessary in order to gain attention to this serious immigration problem,because it is a huge problem in this county.God knows that Mr.Obama isn't doing much to solve it,well,he might if it gets him another 4 years in office.Actually,that may be what he's planning now.Oh,to have the latino vote,good call Mr.Obama.

We as Americans have to go by the law,what is so wrong with wanting people to go by the law?.Yes,there will be a few racist assholes out there,but you can't say the every law officer in Arizona now is a racist cop because he or she is pulling over those they suspect are in this country illegally,they are just doing their jobs,right?,right.

I have Mexican blood running through my veins.I have black hair and brown eyes and skin.If I get pulled over in Arizona someday because of that,trust me,I will have my camera rolling and I will be taking names and badge numbers.The lawyers will love me.But I have this gut instinct that they'll be having fun regardless if that day ever comes.

But I do understand why the good state of Arizona was 'forced' into this law.

This is just how I feel and I know not everyone will feel the same way,so be it.


I too have Mexican heritage, therefore why I give a shit..... I love my culture, I live my people, I love how hard we work, how deep we are, and how passionate we are.. So therefore when I see my people being targeted with more shit than they already put up with, I wanna be there front line with them.

[firie]

We as Americans have to go by the law,what is so wrong with wanting people to go by the law?.Yes,there will be a few racist assholes out there,but you can't say the every law officer in Arizona now is a racist cop because he or she is pulling over those they suspect are in this country illegally,they are just doing their jobs,right?,right.

See, I beg to differ. If they assist in implementing racist laws, and take a paycheck for it, and don't speak out against it, or try to impact change, then they are indeed very racist cops.

And no, not all American citizens have to "go by the law", nor do they get busted for it when they are not following it. Millions upon millions of white people cross into the US through the Canadian borders illegally each year, and we will never ask our police to yank them out of cars and send them back to their country. Never. I don't suspect cops will be looking for British "illegals" (I quote that because we are very quick to point out Mexican "illegals" but never the ever so pale Brits!) when they are trying to "follow the law." It will be their own personal biases which are used to truly carry out the law, and, I am quite sure, as I said, white people (and there are millions but that is never highlighted because we are a racist country, and so we don't mind white immigration) won't be harassed, or jailed and then shipped up and out of here.

US Immigration "issues" or "problems" are always about brown and black skin and never, really ever about white skin--despite the millions who are here.

[apretty]

in addition to what Firie has posted, i'd like to remind everyone that we have the moral obligation to disobey unjust laws.

additionally, "everything Hitler did in Germany was legal" -MLK, Jr.

[suebee]

Yes, you can take your papers with you everywhere and be stopped for them all the time. But what if it were you and every time you left the house you had to get your papers checked...sounds like North Korea or East Germany (the DDR).

Apocalipstic, I have to take my papers with me every time I leave the house. My community is made of of two towns, divided by the international border between the States and Canada. I have an I.D. card issued by U.S Homeland Security that I carry with me all the time. It's just something you get used to, like having your driver's licence or bus pass with you when you leave the house.

My post was an FYI - maybe it will help someone - I don't know. The problem of course is profiling. And that's just more racist shit. It's unrealistic for ANYONE to think that this law can be be applied WITHOUT profiling, it's probably a law that will be found illegal in and of itself (unreasonable search and seizure), and it is most certainly the backlash of the privileged majority feeling that the status quo is in danger.

I hesitate to say this, because I don't want it to be taken in the wrong way, but I think the time has come where the right of the people to "govern themselves" in the States has come around to bite the people in the ass. Although there is equality entrenched in the U.S. constitution, it's never become a reality in real life, and the privileged few have found a myriad of ways to turn their power against those who they consider a minority or undesirable. Equality is only for those who can afford it. I doubt the founding fathers could have imagined how their principles would be misused in the 21st century.

Respectfully,

Sue

[MsDemeanor]

God knows that Mr.Obama isn't doing much to solve it
Gee, Obama's been in office a little over a year. He's had to deal with pesky little things like economic meltdown and two wars.

McCain, meanwhile, has been Arizona's elected representative in Washington for 28 years. This should be at the very top of his priority list, yet after 28 years, it's still a problem. Why point the blame at the new kid on the block instead of at the guy who's been around and representing that very state for almost 3 decades?

God knows that Mr.Obama isn't doing much to solve it,well,he might if it gets him another 4 years in office.Actually,that may be what he's planning now.Oh,to have the latino vote,good call Mr.Obama.

It's not Obama trying to gain minority votes that pushed this up the priority list. The Republicans did this. The AZ legislature started it and several other states and lots of big mouths on Faux Newz are pushing it along. If Obama gains latino support from this, it'll be because of what the Republicans are doing.

By the way, why is a bad thing when liberals court minority voters, but not when conservatives court those voters? It's politics and public elections - it's ALL about courting votes. That's what elections are, and I wish that people would quit talking about it like it's wrong.

[apretty]

By the way, why is a bad thing when liberals court minority voters, but not when conservatives court those voters? It's politics and public elections - it's ALL about courting votes. That's what elections are, and I wish that people would quit talking about it like it's wrong.

thanks for mentioning this (as well as the rest of your post). i also don't get the qualifier, 'minority' to define a voter. like, as if their vote is somehow less desirable.

[firie]

in addition to what Firie has posted, i'd like to remind everyone that we have the moral obligation to disobey unjust laws.

additionally, "everything Hitler did in Germany was legal" -MLK, Jr.



Fucking a, hell yeah we do! Particularly because they are often put in place by really super duper rich people looking to protect their property and interests.

Great quote by the way, and absolutely on point.

And what always gets me is that immigration "issues" and "problems" are always spawned by the media and their primary funders--our government and corporate interests, and the camera zooms in on what is black and brown, but those corporate interests save billions of dollars in not paying workers (immigrant workers) legal wages or insurance for that matter (oh wait, but in America we're supposed to follow the law!). Think of all the CEOs who should be, yes, I'll say it, rotting in jail for breaking the law (as well as for being able to own four homes and a private jet, and sleep all sorts of cushy, and all off the backs of immigrants--their sweat, lost limbs, and, yeah, deaths). Those interests, the ones the rich keep so dearly protected, are even further strengthened when, and you can check the historical patterns just by doing a quick google, we get a democratic congress or ahem president and there is buzz/stir/a few goosebumps about maybe one of those camps--the president or congress-- looking at amnesty again. And so whenever amnesty is even mildly, so very quietly whispered, we have a "real war" at the border and make all the apathetic, fearful white people in this country scared again about the "immigrants."

The real war here, for me, however, is the human rights violations that are occurring every living second of this day, the racism behind immigration and what being "illegal" really means.

Why aren't the cops also arresting all sorts of people for hiring "illegal" labor? Why aren't those folks going to jail for abusing people, say like in the construction industry, there is no medical comp for an immigrant. He just loses his arm, or leg, and his family doesn't get to eat. The CEO just fills the spot and carries on with his fucking golf game. We, the US, have been breaking all sorts of international human rights violations--breaking international law (but we're all supposed to follow the law!) for as long as the US has been here and has been choking the ever loving shit out of Mexico, since well before Mexican Independence.

Sorry, I have a specific rant here with respect to Mexico and US relations, because it's a bunch of mad fuckery, and I can't help myself. I am not denying that we are on a sociopathic hunt for all immigrants of black and brown skin, but in Texas, immigration "issues" or "problems" are always Mexican.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Fucking a, hell yeah we do! Particularly because they are often put in place by really super duper rich people looking to protect their property and interests.

Great quote by the way, and absolutely on point.

And what always gets me is that immigration "issues" and "problems" are always spawned by the media and their primary funders--our government and corporate interests, and the camera zooms in on what is black and brown, but those corporate interests save billions of dollars in not paying workers (immigrant workers) legal wages or insurance for that matter (oh wait, but in America we're supposed to follow the law!). Think of all the CEOs who should be, yes, I'll say it, rotting in jail for breaking the law (as well as for being able to own four homes and a private jet, and sleep all sorts of cushy, and all off the backs of immigrants--their sweat, lost limbs, and, yeah, deaths). Those interests, the ones the rich keep so dearly protected, are even further strengthened when, and you can check the historical patterns just by doing a quick google, we get a democratic congress or ahem president and there is buzz/stir/a few goosebumps about maybe one of those camps--the president or congress-- looking at amnesty again. And so whenever amnesty is even mildly, so very quietly whispered, we have a "real war" at the border and make all the apathetic, fearful white people in this country scared again about the "immigrants."

The real war here, for me, however, is the human rights violations that are occurring every living second of this day, the racism behind immigration and what being "illegal" really means.

Why aren't the cops also arresting all sorts of people for hiring "illegal" labor? Why aren't those folks going to jail for abusing people, say like in the construction industry, there is no medical comp for an immigrant. He just loses his arm, or leg, and his family doesn't get to eat. The CEO just fills the spot and carries on with his fucking golf game. We, the US, have been breaking all sorts of international human rights violations--breaking international law (but we're all supposed to follow the law!) for as long as the US has been here and has been choking the ever loving shit out of Mexico, since well before Mexican Independence.

Sorry, I have a specific rant here with respect to Mexico and US relations, because it's a bunch of mad fuckery, and I can't help myself. I am not denying that we are on a sociopathic hunt for all immigrants of black and brown skin, but in Texas, immigration "issues" or "problems" are always Mexican.

Hence why it's important to *me* it feels like a bounty has been put on my people and they are scared, and don't fucking anyone (yes I know you will) come in here and sell me the shit that they are not...


Also....... This is not just this whole *brown* people issue, it's a *HUMAN* issue, ffs they are people, not vermin and to portray them as such...is so ugly---This is just so so ugly..... and sad.

[apretty]

Hence why it's important to *me* it feels like a bounty has been put on my people and they are scared, and don't fucking anyone (yes I know you will) come in here and sell me the shit that they are not...


Also....... This is not just this whole *brown* people issue, it's a *HUMAN* issue, ffs they are people, not vermin and to portray them as such...is so ugly---This is just so so ugly..... and sad.

it's absolutely a 'human' issue-- racism, bigotry, prejudices erode our society, despite who the TARGET is.

[PapaC]

I really do.
I mean... I REALLY REALLY do.
I can still hear my mom say

"você tem que ter seus documentos em ordem!"

she was very particular about that kind of paperwork, and I'm very grateful for that.

But I never thought in a million years that her prudence and lessons would be needed for the level of grief I have in North American border crossings. So yes, I understand if you're close to the border, have your papers if you plan to cross...

but on your person? Every time?

Now, just suppose SB 1070 was in BC. I like open water swimming. you realize if SB1070 existed literally in my backyard, I could be stopped and harassed because I don't happen to have my SIN or my DL tattooed somewhere on my ass.


I'm wearing a pair of shorts right now with no pockets. I have to walk to the mailbox to get my mail. Are you telling me I should take my ID with me if I want to go for a 10 minutes walk?

or what if I just plainly forget my ID/wallet but I'm on a bus somewhere in Victoria? I paid with a ticket, I have my house keys, I might even have a $20 bill on me.

But if SB1070 existed up here, I'd be nervous as fuck.

Two years ago, I paid for a friend of mine on Nova Scotia to get his birth certificate (it was -- ha ha, a birthday gift actually, I'm a fan of practical gifts). Both him and his boyfriend don't update their IDs. I almost find it weird that 'regular' Canadians (people born in Canada, not naturalized like me) don't keep up to date passports.

It's been ingrained in my head to have my papers in ordered... (like my momma taught me). But honestly, I'm a little jealous at my friend's lack of interest... (some might say lack of responsibility)..

but, I also see it as a type of privilege that I've *never* felt... the privilege of being free of worrying of harassment of questioning of who I am, and if...

I 'actually' belong in the country of which I'm citizen.

I am racially profiled at borders... Wanna know what's saved my ass each and every time?

I sound Torontonian. Not Portuguese.

So, while I believe in the prudence of it, cybersuebee, I also see the bullshit behind it. Knowing that my parents lived in a fascist country prior to coming to Canada in 1974, I understand now where the fear was instilled from. And it ain't pretty.

[Toughy]

I don't have the all the links, but you can start with this guy......Kris Kobach ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Kobach ) then follow up with FAIR (mentioned above) and The Pioneer Fund and guess who .......the John Birch Society.

The fun thing about Kobach is he wrote the AZ law and a similiar law in OK that was tossed out and declared unconstitutional by federal courts. The AZ is unconstitutional based on the 14 amendment.

Another fun thing is the AZ law requires police officers be trained in how to implement the new law and guess who that rat bastard Arpaio is going to use to train his officers at 300 bucks an hour.

There is also another little clause in that law that allows citizens of AZ to file suit against any law enforcement agency they think is not enforcing the law. The law is apparently set up so Kobach can represent either side in the suit.....guess he can't decide which is more important: racism or money...

reading the law and doing some research is kinda interesting sometimes......

[Toughy]

How about the sheriff in Pima Country....Tucson and a whole bunch of the AZ/Mexico border..............

Pima County (according to Sheriff Dupnik) has the highest rate of detaining and turning over to ICE undocumented folks using the laws already on the books. He pointed that the new law requires police to arrest and detain folks in local/county/state jails/detention facilities. This will cost AZ taxpayers a whole bunch o money......before this law was passed, if you found an undocumented person, you called ICE and they came and got them.........no cost to AZ....it's a federal cost.

Sheriff Dupnik says the law is unconstitutional and he will not enforce it. The laws on the books now work just fine.