What attracts you to Ftms ......

[Billy]

This is open to all !

What is it that attracts you to Ftms or Mtf and if there are some turn offs as well . Why you would or wouldn't consider dating or being in a relationship with etc ...

Looking forward to reading your thoughts :)

[morningstar55]

... there cute.... hehe..
ok all kiding aside......

im more of well personality, character and who they are as a person.... not whats in the pants so to speak.... yes I would date someone that is ftm/TG :o

[MsMerrick]

Billy, FTM's are men. in my book. I am occasionally attracted to men, so I am occasionally attracted to an FTM. That is quite different for me, than my attraction to Butches, or my attraction to women, which tends to be Butches.. and much more all encompassing, which is to say I am way too often attracted to people I don't necessarily like or wish to partner with. :)
Make any sense?
I have occasionally dated an FTM, post transition, and found it ..difficult, but .. for the right fit, I wouldn't say I would never do that again.
But t hen I admit I find the idea of dating anyone, a tad moot :)

[Billy]

Thanks Merrick and Morning star :)

[owen4u1904]

I am on youtube and I know quite a few ftms through that one cause they have all documented their transistion (sp?). But most I know....I know their personality. And to be honest, I am attracted to bio males but I would never be in a relationship with them. However, which is something I dont get it...but I love who I love. I am a person...and I am very attracted to ftms and I have dated an ftm once. It was during their transition phase though. Overall though, its personality through and through. :)

[Gemme]

This is open to all !

What is it that attracts you to Ftms or Mtf and if there are some turn offs as well . Why you would or wouldn't consider dating or being in a relationship with etc ...

Looking forward to reading your thoughts :)


I've dated an FTM and it didn't work for (at least) one very important reason....he wanted no connection to his previous life or community. So, for me to consider dating an FTM, he'd have to want to remain a part of....or at least acknowledge....the community that I am (and will continue to be) a part of and connected to.

Oh, and looks don't hurt either. *grin*

Turn offs are pretty much the same across the gender and/or sexuality board for me....not being kind to small children, elderly women crossing the road and waitstaff will not earn anyone any cookies from me. Basically, take pride in your appearance and self and try to be the best person you can be (aka not being a douche bag, which we all are very capable of being) and understand that I will be trying to do the same and, on different days, we will have different success rates.

[Billy]

I've dated an FTM and it didn't work for (at least) one very important reason....he wanted no connection to his previous life or community. So, for me to consider dating an FTM, he'd have to want to remain a part of....or at least acknowledge....the community that I am (and will continue to be) a part of and connected to.

Oh, and looks don't hurt either. *grin*

Turn offs are pretty much the same across the gender and/or sexuality board for me....not being kind to small children, elderly women crossing the road and waitstaff will not earn anyone any cookies from me. Basically, take pride in your appearance and self and try to be the best person you can be (aka not being a douche bag, which we all are very capable of being) and understand that I will be trying to do the same and, on different days, we will have different success rates.

Thanks Gemme !

I was just saying the other day , I am not sorry that I was born female .If I had been born male I would have missed out on meeting and dating some awesome people :) I would not be able to take part in things like the Prom coming up in Aug ...So I try to stay connected to the community ...I don't ever want Me to change the way someone Id's :)

[Gemme]

Thanks Gemme !

I was just saying the other day , I am not sorry that I was born female .If I had been born male I would have missed out on meeting and dating some awesome people :) I would not be able to take part in things like the Prom coming up in Aug ...So I try to stay connected to the community ...I don't ever want Me to change the way someone Id's :)

Exactly!

Our own identities are fine. But when it crosses that line and forces your partner to change theirs to conform or to keep you, then that's just not right.

I agree; our community has some awesome folks!

[Diva]

I guess I would have to say that I am first attracted to Someone's personality first....their spirit...their soul....and oh, look!....He's an FtM.....ok then.

I appreciate the male energy, to be certain (and other things <smile> ), but I also appreciate the two~spirited guy....something with which bio males don't seem to be blessed.

Did that make sense?

[Billy]

I guess I would have to say that I am first attracted to Someone's personality first....their spirit...their soul....and oh, look!....He's an FtM.....ok then.

I appreciate the male energy, to be certain (and other things <smile> ), but I also appreciate the two~spirited guy....something with which bio males don't seem to be blessed.

Did that make sense?





Yes it does ! And thank you :)

[Emmy]

In anyone, of any sex or gender, I suppose I’m attracted to depth and complexity and the strength of character to be true to oneself and one’s ideals, even when it’s hard.

[Billy]

In anyone, of any sex or gender, I suppose I’m attracted to depth and complexity and the strength of character to be true to oneself and one’s ideals, even when it’s hard.

Thank you Emmy :)

[Soft*Silver]

I have dated bio men and they fell flat on the sustained-attraction meter. I might have liked the way they looked but as soon as they opened their mouths or I took them out in public, the meter jumped way over to "unappealing". I am fiercely not attracted to bio men in general.

But I am attracted to FtMs. I like how Diva said its the 2 spirit thing. I know (which is different than merely believing) that FtMs are men from the get go regardless of what their undies held in. Going thru life as a male in a female body creates an incredible journey thru life. They pick up all the social nuances females are given, and while they dont claim them as their own, they are acutely aware of them in the women in their lives.I know when their eyes are on me, they see within me, not just the outside. When they draw me in sexually, they know what I am experiencing. Not because they experienced it...but because they Know about "it"..that which makes me a woman. Bio men dont have that glimpse into the femmes soul.

I also like to date FtMs because they have had to work hard at who they are. They are warriors on the inside. They are committed to themselves. I cant tell you how appalling it is to get asked out by a creepy crawler..you know the kind...the ones who lay on the basement couch watching jerry springer and eating orange food (cheese whiz and cheetos) ...creepy crawlers are almost always bio men gone bad. Not all bio men are bad. But there are enough of them to limit their dating pool to like 1%. FtMs, however, are their own knights in shining armours. They have battled the culture, their family, their religions, the LGBT world, their partners, their job related people and the neighbors next door. You have to admire the hell out of them on this alone. And I like dating FtMs because of the magic. Alchemy. Changing something entirely to create something else. And because they work so hard on it, damn they sure look good! I dont want to single anyone out but yeah, I will. Bo is a prime example of what I am talking about. I have watched from afar his transition and I got to tell you, he is a handsome man...incredibly handsome man. Some woman is going to be very lucky to get him as a partner. He is invested in himself without the narcissitic privelaged personality bio men culturally inherit.

I have dated a few FtMs. And I would again. I have dated some butches who really wanted to transition but felt unable to. How sad for them....I still hope they will someday.

One other thing about dating an FtM...the ones I have dated were very schooled in dating ettiquette. I had my doors opened for me, flowers sent, lovely little suprises left for me, good nite phone calls where they sung me to sleep....it was magical because they were such good daters! They knew how to be the gentleman to my gentle lady that I am...

[DapperButch]

I have dated bio men and they fell flat on the sustained-attraction meter. I might have liked the way they looked but as soon as they opened their mouths or I took them out in public, the meter jumped way over to "unappealing". I am fiercely not attracted to bio men in general.

But I am attracted to FtMs. I like how Diva said its the 2 spirit thing. I know (which is different than merely believing) that FtMs are men from the get go regardless of what their undies held in. Going thru life as a male in a female body creates an incredible journey thru life. They pick up all the social nuances females are given, and while they dont claim them as their own, they are acutely aware of them in the women in their lives.I know when their eyes are on me, they see within me, not just the outside. When they draw me in sexually, they know what I am experiencing. Not because they experienced it...but because they Know about "it"..that which makes me a woman. Bio men dont have that glimpse into the femmes soul.

I also like to date FtMs because they have had to work hard at who they are. They are warriors on the inside. They are committed to themselves. I cant tell you how appalling it is to get asked out by a creepy crawler..you know the kind...the ones who lay on the basement couch watching jerry springer and eating orange food (cheese whiz and cheetos) ...creepy crawlers are almost always bio men gone bad. Not all bio men are bad. But there are enough of them to limit their dating pool to like 1%. FtMs, however, are their own knights in shining armours. They have battled the culture, their family, their religions, the LGBT world, their partners, their job related people and the neighbors next door. You have to admire the hell out of them on this alone. And I like dating FtMs because of the magic. Alchemy. Changing something entirely to create something else. And because they work so hard on it, damn they sure look good! I dont want to single anyone out but yeah, I will. Bo is a prime example of what I am talking about. I have watched from afar his transition and I got to tell you, he is a handsome man...incredibly handsome man. Some woman is going to be very lucky to get him as a partner. He is invested in himself without the narcissitic privelaged personality bio men culturally inherit.

I have dated a few FtMs. And I would again. I have dated some butches who really wanted to transition but felt unable to. How sad for them....I still hope they will someday.

One other thing about dating an FtM...the ones I have dated were very schooled in dating ettiquette. I had my doors opened for me, flowers sent, lovely little suprises left for me, good nite phone calls where they sung me to sleep....it was magical because they were such good daters! They knew how to be the gentleman to my gentle lady that I am...

Great, powerful post. <thumbs up sign, minus big ole smiling face of available thumbs up smilie...'cause I be all serious in this statement>

[morningstar55]

Great, powerful post. <thumbs up sign, minus big ole smiling face of available thumbs up smilie...'cause I be all serious in this statement>

....i agree......

i also ......... really like the way . Diva put it..

[Dexter_1976]

Gday everyone,

Well im FTM for 2 years and 5 months now, yes i have so much energy and really need soulmate as for me i dont mind what woman wants as long she is happy who she is to be with, some here are very brave to date with FTM becuase FTM are the same it doesnt means that grown PENIS they are wrong cause of lack of understand or dont have much informations about those FTM, u know i began wonder why most Lesbian (i mean community) is more welcome to MTF something that i dont get it why most lesbian dont want to be with FTM, this is really frustrate me mostly and annoyed thought oh well their loss it not my problem. :violin:

[Billy]

I have dated bio men and they fell flat on the sustained-attraction meter. I might have liked the way they looked but as soon as they opened their mouths or I took them out in public, the meter jumped way over to "unappealing". I am fiercely not attracted to bio men in general.

But I am attracted to FtMs. I like how Diva said its the 2 spirit thing. I know (which is different than merely believing) that FtMs are men from the get go regardless of what their undies held in. Going thru life as a male in a female body creates an incredible journey thru life. They pick up all the social nuances females are given, and while they dont claim them as their own, they are acutely aware of them in the women in their lives.I know when their eyes are on me, they see within me, not just the outside. When they draw me in sexually, they know what I am experiencing. Not because they experienced it...but because they Know about "it"..that which makes me a woman. Bio men dont have that glimpse into the femmes soul.

I also like to date FtMs because they have had to work hard at who they are. They are warriors on the inside. They are committed to themselves. I cant tell you how appalling it is to get asked out by a creepy crawler..you know the kind...the ones who lay on the basement couch watching jerry springer and eating orange food (cheese whiz and cheetos) ...creepy crawlers are almost always bio men gone bad. Not all bio men are bad. But there are enough of them to limit their dating pool to like 1%. FtMs, however, are their own knights in shining armours. They have battled the culture, their family, their religions, the LGBT world, their partners, their job related people and the neighbors next door. You have to admire the hell out of them on this alone. And I like dating FtMs because of the magic. Alchemy. Changing something entirely to create something else. And because they work so hard on it, damn they sure look good! I dont want to single anyone out but yeah, I will. Bo is a prime example of what I am talking about. I have watched from afar his transition and I got to tell you, he is a handsome man...incredibly handsome man. Some woman is going to be very lucky to get him as a partner. He is invested in himself without the narcissitic privelaged personality bio men culturally inherit.

I have dated a few FtMs. And I would again. I have dated some butches who really wanted to transition but felt unable to. How sad for them....I still hope they will someday.

One other thing about dating an FtM...the ones I have dated were very schooled in dating ettiquette. I had my doors opened for me, flowers sent, lovely little suprises left for me, good nite phone calls where they sung me to sleep....it was magical because they were such good daters! They knew how to be the gentleman to my gentle lady that I am...

This is awesome thank you for sharing this :)

[DapperButch]

....i agree......

i also ......... really like the way . Diva put it..


Well, YEAH...but that kind of goes without saying....we are talking about THE Diva here...lol :tease:

[WheelieStrong]

i'm attracted to masculinity, which i think is hormonal, before T i was mainly into fairly femme girls i guess
i still appreciate an attractive woman in all forms but it's not the same as wanting to be with her.
i've spent most of my adult life avoiding women because every woman i have found remotely attractive has been a lesbians so there would be no hope for me.

i think initially, i am no more attracted to a guy who's ftm than i am a bio guy, physically i tend to work with whatever is put in front of me if i like the person, but i think somehow there is more potential for a stronger emotional bond when i am with another transman.
i wouldn't say all transguys are more tender and loving but there is a very high percentage that seem to be highly tender and intimate lovers, from my experience and what i hear from others

i hope i made sense

[femmebaker]

It's a very interesting question, one that seems to have as many answers as people answering it. I've take to identifying as bi, not because I like manly men and girly girls, but because I love the sensitive, intellectual breed of masculinity that technically straddles the gender divide. For me, FTMs are the ultimate embodiment of this. There is an intentionality that is a fundamental part of being FTM that is beyond hot :drool:

[WheelieStrong]

I've dated an FTM and it didn't work for (at least) one very important reason....he wanted no connection to his previous life or community. So, for me to consider dating an FTM, he'd have to want to remain a part of....or at least acknowledge....the community that I am (and will continue to be) a part of and connected to.


i think because i found life so difficult before transition (at 19) i never truly experienced life as a female in the social sense, i was considered a lesbian by others but never experienced the community, i dated one person before transition but we met online and she met me as me

in some ways i feel that this has put me at a disadvantage, i know very little of women in general and especially the lesbian community which everyone expects me to be able to connect with.

i still live with an ex gf who is trans, won't be going there again, i thought transmen had issues lol, i love her to bits but she's only my friend and the most annoying wench i have ever met.
i fell deeply in love with men after i met her, which i feel badly about but you cant help how you feel, she's pretty much looking for relationships with women anyway.

Should i be worried that i now find myself wanting to connect with women and especially not ignore the fact that i am definately attracting to some of them?

[Gemme]

i think because i found life so difficult before transition (at 19) i never truly experienced life as a female in the social sense, i was considered a lesbian by others but never experienced the community, i dated one person before transition but we met online and she met me as me

in some ways i feel that this has put me at a disadvantage, i know very little of women in general and especially the lesbian community which everyone expects me to be able to connect with.

i still live with an ex gf who is trans, won't be going there again, i thought transmen had issues lol, i love her to bits but she's only my friend and the most annoying wench i have ever met.
i fell deeply in love with men after i met her, which i feel badly about but you cant help how you feel, she's pretty much looking for relationships with women anyway.

Should i be worried that i now find myself wanting to connect with women and especially not ignore the fact that i am definately attracting to some of them?


For the record, the community I was speaking of is the GLBT3QI community as a whole. I don't identify as a lesbian. :)

That being said, I can appreciate where you are coming from. I don't think you should be worried, per se, about who you are attracted to. If someone is attracted to you and you not to her or him, let them know as you would liked to be told. There's nothing wrong with being or not being attracted to someone. You can't help that. You can, however, help how you deal with the situation. Be kind. Be honest.

[Billy]

i think because i found life so difficult before transition (at 19) i never truly experienced life as a female in the social sense, i was considered a lesbian by others but never experienced the community, i dated one person before transition but we met online and she met me as me

in some ways i feel that this has put me at a disadvantage, i know very little of women in general and especially the lesbian community which everyone expects me to be able to connect with.

i still live with an ex gf who is trans, won't be going there again, i thought transmen had issues lol, i love her to bits but she's only my friend and the most annoying wench i have ever met.
i fell deeply in love with men after i met her, which i feel badly about but you cant help how you feel, she's pretty much looking for relationships with women anyway.

Should i be worried that i now find myself wanting to connect with women and especially not ignore the fact that i am definately attracting to some of them?

Thanks for sharing this Wheelie :)

I know several trans men once they started to transition they found themselves attracted to other men ..Nothing wrong with that ..I Myself at times have found that also , but I prefer woman :) You don't have to be attracted to every woman you meet , nor do you have to be attracted to every man ...Perhaps it's just the person themselves :)

[Billy]

It's a very interesting question, one that seems to have as many answers as people answering it. I've take to identifying as bi, not because I like manly men and girly girls, but because I love the sensitive, intellectual breed of masculinity that technically straddles the gender divide. For me, FTMs are the ultimate embodiment of this. There is an intentionality that is a fundamental part of being FTM that is beyond hot :drool:

Thank you femmebaker :)

[Soft*Silver]

the first transman I dated had been bi before his transition and remained bi after his transition.

[Billy]

the first transman I dated had been bi before his transition and remained bi after his transition.

That's cool :)

[GoofyLuvr]

You know, it's funny. For years I've been wondering what was wrong with me, even wondered if I was straight for a while, even though I couldn't find any bio-male that I was attracted to. Then I learned about the trans-guy. I felt like Cinderella when she put had the glass slipper put on her foot. Like I'd been living in a dream world all my life, and I had suddenly awoke to a bright, beautiful morning! The duality is perfect. The masculinity is breathtaking. There is a sense of self that no one could have without that kind of experience. I honor every trans that has the courage to live their life according to their true nature. My dreams now include someday meeting that special one that can appreciate me as much as I appreciate him, and can accept my uniqueness as I revel in his. "Butch" is not what I'm made for. I've come to realize this. Everyone has that special someone out there. I realize now, after all these years, I've finally figured out which direction I need to be taking. Cheers to all of you, and thank God you're out there!!!! And, fear not, there are those of us trying as hard as you to figure out how to meet you!!!

[Random]

the first transman I dated had been bi before his transition and remained bi after his transition.

Interesting..

The first T-girl (her defn) I dated was gay before she transitioned and became bi after becoming a woman...

[Dylan]

Am I the only person who is bothered by stereotypical generalizations about (oppressed) groups of people? Even if those stereotypical generalizations are *supposed to be* compliments?

Black men have big dicks

Jewish men are good with money

Mexican men are just so romantic and Don Juanish

Transmen are just so sensitive and 'in touch'

When I hear these kinds of stereotypical generalizations about transmen, I just HAVE to wonder how many transmen some folks meet off of this site and in the real world

Which then leads me to wonder how folks knew they were being hit on by a cisguy (in reference to the creepy crawler comment by Softness) and not a transguy.

I also don't understand what someone's sexuality ("this transguy was bi, but then went straight" or "That transguy was straight and then fucked men after T") has to do with the price of rice


I'm Sure I'll Be Filleted For All Of This...But...Eh,
Dylan...NOT more 'in tune' than anyone else when it comes to the wants/needs/desires of women

[TenderKnight]

Hmmm.. what attracts me to transguys? (Yesss.. I'm a very BI transguy, lol)

Well, first of all, most of them *get* it.. The body image thing, the hormones, all of it.. I don't have to explain about any of that.. Notice, i said "most".. I had a hook up recently, a transguy that has been on hormones for years.. He kept telling me that he was straight and only dated females, but that I was soooo hot and how he'd wanted into my pants for months.. We get to doing the ditty and he keeps telling me how straight he is and wants to play with my "titties" and "pussy".. lol.. Yeah, dude was confused.. On a side note, didn't let that lil guy sleep until i was well and done. LOL

My point with that story? Not all transguys are these wonderfully evolved beings that have every quality that anyone could want because they lived both sides of the fence. It just doesn't happen that way. All people are people, no matter if they are Mr transgender avenger or Ms ignorant polly in buttitch, nc..

I got side tracked, didn't I? Dear dear.. ok, so, what makes me hot for transguys *grins* Hair.. Love body and face hair.. The smell.. Love that *man* smell.. Most transguys that I continue to have relations with know how to treat my cock and my man cunt.. did I mention body hair? Ohhhh yeah!

So, that is my very "gay" in put on this subject :D

-Tony, who was also sneezed on and farted on by that a for mentioned straight transman.. No shit.. it's true! lmao (worst hook up.. EVER)

PS- the sneezing and farting? TOTALLY non consentual :( awww..

[Gemme]

Am I the only person who is bothered by stereotypical generalizations about (oppressed) groups of people? Even if those stereotypical generalizations are *supposed to be* compliments?

Black men have big dicks

Jewish men are good with money

Mexican men are just so romantic and Don Juanish

Transmen are just so sensitive and 'in touch'

When I hear these kinds of stereotypical generalizations about transmen, I just HAVE to wonder how many transmen some folks meet off of this site and in the real world

Which then leads me to wonder how folks knew they were being hit on by a cisguy (in reference to the creepy crawler comment by Softness) and not a transguy.

I also don't understand what someone's sexuality ("this transguy was bi, but then went straight" or "That transguy was straight and then fucked men after T") has to do with the price of rice


I'm Sure I'll Be Filleted For All Of This...But...Eh,
Dylan...NOT more 'in tune' than anyone else when it comes to the wants/needs/desires of women

While I like a good fillet, it won't be comprised of you...promise! :)

I see the offense in generalizations. But I also see that stereotypes exist for a reason; a specific pattern of behavior has been observed and documented. Stereotypes are there because so many people of one particular sex/color/creed/etc have behaved in a particular way often. This exists for all of us, whether or not we're part of an oppressed group.

That doesn't make it right for folks to access a particular group based strictly on things they've "heard", of course. I just wonder if there is an acceptable middle ground somewhere or if there are going to be many of us who are always up in arms about every generalization for every group. That would be extremely exhausting to me.

Just my .02 on a day when I'm actually pretty calm. Tomorrow may change though....

[betenoire]

I know this is unpopular opinion, and it's really none of my business who other people date...but it strikes me as icky when someone will date an FTM but not a non-trans man. Like, TO ME, that insinuates that they don't fully acknowledge their lovers sex/gender.

[TenderKnight]

I know this is unpopular opinion, and it's really none of my business who other people date...but it strikes me as icky when someone will date an FTM but not a non-trans man. Like, TO ME, that insinuates that they don't fully acknowledge their lovers sex/gender.

YES! THANK YOU!!! I have wondered the same myself.. and please don't take this as bashing people's choices or attractions, but sometimes I feel like transguys are the "safe" guys, because they are *really* men.. *le sigh*

I get what you mean, thanks for putting into words.

[Gemme]

I know this is unpopular opinion, and it's really none of my business who other people date...but it strikes me as icky when someone will date an FTM but not a non-trans man. Like, TO ME, that insinuates that they don't fully acknowledge their lovers sex/gender.

I can understand this line of thought. For myself, it's not only about who they are now but who they've been their entire lives. For me, there MUST be a connection to the Queer community in some way. If there is none, which is true for most non-trans men, I believe....I can't go there. The tie to the community is one that binds for me.

[betenoire]

I can understand this line of thought. For myself, it's not only about who they are now but who they've been their entire lives. For me, there MUST be a connection to the Queer community in some way. If there is none, which is true for most non-trans men, I believe....I can't go there. The tie to the community is one that binds for me.

So would you date a non-trans guy if he were bisexual or at least a strong activist/ally? Bisexual men are part of the Queer community, and real vocal activists/allies -do- experience some of the same beatdown/judgement/whatever that those of us who actually are Queer get. (not that oppression should be the glass through which we view/legitimize queerdom.)

[Gemme]

So would you date a non-trans guy if he were bisexual or at least a strong activist/ally? Bisexual men are part of the Queer community, and real vocal activists/allies -do- experience some of the same beatdown/judgement/whatever that those of us who actually are Queer get. (not that oppression should be the glass through which we view/legitimize queerdom.)

I suppose it's possible. I haven't met anyone that meets that criteria that I was attracted to, though, so I can't say for certain.

[Dylan]

While I like a good fillet, it won't be comprised of you...promise! :)

I see the offense in generalizations. But I also see that stereotypes exist for a reason; a specific pattern of behavior has been observed and documented. Stereotypes are there because so many people of one particular sex/color/creed/etc have behaved in a particular way often. This exists for all of us, whether or not we're part of an oppressed group.

That doesn't make it right for folks to access a particular group based strictly on things they've "heard", of course. I just wonder if there is an acceptable middle ground somewhere or if there are going to be many of us who are always up in arms about every generalization for every group. That would be extremely exhausting to me.

Just my .02 on a day when I'm actually pretty calm. Tomorrow may change though....

Well, what's more bothersome to me is really this idea that transmen are just so 'wonderfully in tune' with women

Well, and this whole, "two spirit" idea.

Again, it just reeks of people who have only met transmen from/thru these sites. Many of the transguys I know in real time don't affiliate with the queer community, and I challenge anyone to find them 'more in tune', color them a man-woman, or even KNOW they were trans.

Seriously, how in the hell does One know if they're being hit on by a transguy or a cisguy? I'm trans, and I have no idea half the guys I meet are trans until they say something about it...and that's in TRANS space.

And no, I don't believe generalizations and stereotypes necessarily occur just because a bunch of people 'really do act like that'. I think people see what they want to see and toss out the rest. And honestly, whether a stereotype is true in one instance or two instances, it doesn't then make it 'ok' to say it somewhere (like "Jews really ARE good with money"). I mean, seriously. I just can't imagine another group of people we'd be dissecting like this without someone from that group being up in arms.

"Oh, well, I dated a black guy once, and his dick was sooooooooo big...it's really true...hehehe, sometimes, the stereotypes are really true...p.s. he also liked grape soda...YAYYYYYYYYY Black Men!!!!!"

WTF?

Or, "Transmen date well" Really? WTF is that? Or, "Oh, well, I see transmen as just the perfect mix between male and female?" Really? What the fuck is that? "It's like all the best parts of a man, with all of the sensitivity of a woman". Some men are sensitive, some men are assholes. If you like sensitive men, then like sensitive men...but don't lump all transmen into some (dis)illusional picture you've created, because you know a few who act like that...while you then assume every realtime (creepy) guy who hits on you is cis.

I mean, come on...it's kind of gross


Dylan...LOVES grape soda

[Gemme]

Well, what's more bothersome to me is really this idea that transmen are just so 'wonderfully in tune' with women

Well, and this whole, "two spirit" idea.

Again, it just reeks of people who have only met transmen from/thru these sites. Many of the transguys I know in real time don't affiliate with the queer community, and I challenge anyone to find them 'more in tune', color them a man-woman, or even KNOW they were trans.

Seriously, how in the hell does One know if they're being hit on by a transguy or a cisguy? I'm trans, and I have no idea half the guys I meet are trans until they say something about it...and that's in TRANS space.

And no, I don't believe generalizations and stereotypes necessarily occur just because a bunch of people 'really do act like that'. I think people see what they want to see and toss out the rest. And honestly, whether a stereotype is true in one instance or two instances, it doesn't then make it 'ok' to say it somewhere (like "Jews really ARE good with money"). I mean, seriously. I just can't imagine another group of people we'd be dissecting like this without someone from that group being up in arms.

"Oh, well, I dated a black guy once, and his dick was sooooooooo big...it's really true...hehehe, sometimes, the stereotypes are really true...p.s. he also liked grape soda...YAYYYYYYYYY Black Men!!!!!"

WTF?

Or, "Transmen date well" Really? WTF is that? Or, "Oh, well, I see transmen as just the perfect mix between male and female?" Really? What the fuck is that? "It's like all the best parts of a man, with all of the sensitivity of a woman". Some men are sensitive, some men are assholes. If you like sensitive men, then like sensitive men...but don't lump all transmen into some (dis)illusional picture you've created, because you know a few who act like that...while you then assume every realtime (creepy) guy who hits on you is cis.

I mean, come on...it's kind of gross


Dylan...LOVES grape soda

Thanks for reworking your thought. I wasn't seeing it from this angle and I get what you are saying better now.

From my own personal experience, I've only seriously dated a couple of Trans guys. One remained connected to the community and one was repulsed by it. So I may not have some of the perceptions that others have since I've seen guys who do and do not fit the stereotypes that you are addressing.

Food for thought....

Gemme...who also loves grape soda

[BullDog]

I personally am not the slightest bit surprised that a queer femme would have a preference for someone associated with her queer community (which wouldn't be the same as the gay male community that a bisexual man would tend to be a part of).

[Sachita]

basically what Diva and Softness said about 2 spirit only it's more like a third sex thing for me. I'm attracted to masculine energy. This can be ftm, trans, butch... doesnt matter to me how they ID, if I feel it I know it and its all about chemistry. To be honest I've dated a few people that were like this, 3rd sex, very masculine but didn't consider themselves anything and I really like this.
I would be attracted to a transguy as long as he didnt emulate a biomale. It would be way too hard for me to explain this but if you're there you know what I mean.

But the bottom line is I don't care. If we connect we connect.

[SuperFemme]

I am attracted to human beings.
I am also attracted to the brains of human beings.
If you cannot get my brain to third base you are not going
to get my body to first base.

So I guess I cannot properly answer the original question because it is too limiting. Sorry.

[Sachita]

You know.. I'm so not going to be a smartass here.. but I will say this.. No one does laundry better then a femme that is bare foot and in the kitchen.. and preggers with our love chile..

But really.. I know a transguy that can fluff and fold like nobody's business!

-Tony, who is totally being a smart ass.. Not all femmes can do laundry the way I like it..


oh no not so! I had this sweet little submissive ftm that came to take care of me a few times. HE did the best laundry ever and looked pretty damn good bare foot, in the kitchen cooking and cleaning. I use to call him my fag because he was as nelly as they come. I'd love to find another one but maybe a little older and has his head more together.

[GoofyLuvr]

Wow did this take off!!! Quite illuminating, actually. And has really made me think and analyze myself, my actions, my behaviors, and my feelings. And here's what I've come up with for myself.

I said before I've been struggling for years over who it is exactly I'm attracted to. And "struggle" is actually putting it mildly. I've always said I fall in love with the person, not what is on the outside. To this day, this remains a true statement. I've been with a lot of women, always butch, yet also always felt something was missing. And they probably knew it, cos I wasn't into their female parts like a "good lesbian" should be. (My words for myself, not directed at anybody else.) I've tried my best to be attracted to bio-males (and yes, I'm going to use that terminology as it helps make my point) and yet have never been able to find one that I have chemistry with. And I know some really nice, loving, sensitive bio-males, but they just aren't for me. My life would be so much easier sometimes if I was, from family relationships to societal interactions.

There is something about a trans-guy that fits me to a T. I've dated a few, and NEVER thought of them as "woman". But can I define why it is that I am attracted to the "trans-guy" and not "bio-male". Nope, sure can't. Wish to God I could. I can, though, say that I do not want to be with a woman again, no matter how butch she is. My own needs don't get met when I am with a woman, no matter how butch she/hy may be. It's just as simple as that. It's a gender that doesn't fit me, although it fits better than the male gender. I still get blisters when I put that shoe on, though.

I am attracted to the gender of a trans-man. I don't expect anything other than he be himself, as I am myself. On the flip side of the expectations, though, I've actually been told that I wouldn't be attractive to anyone of the trans-guy gender because I'm not high femme. I don't agree with this statement, and actually find it insulting not for myself, but for the gender. It's a backwards way of saying that a trans-guy has to be with a high-femme woman (whether she considers herself straight or not) to justify and emphasize his masculinity. And that just isn't so. And I'm not saying that the ones of this gender that are attracted to high femmes are so because of the aforesaid reasoning, I'm saying the person who made that statement needs to rethink their beliefs. People are attracted to people, whatever gender they may be attracted to. I id myself as queer because it's a simple way to make my preferences known. I'm not, though, going to be attracted to someone just becausehe is trans. That is only the first step. There is a whole lot more that needs to be known before I can say I'm attracted. I'm just saying he has a hell of a better chance at getting my attention than someone from another gender does.

[Dylan]

I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

Yeah, ME statements ARE great. I agree. I have absolutely no problem with someone saying, "Oh, well, I like sensitive guys, and I've been fortunate to have dated some guys who were sensitive"

Yep, no problem there.

But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive. WHY do transguys HAVE to be 'dual gendered' to be sensitive? WHY do they have to be 'put in their place, and reminded of their 'journey' <gag>"?

What is it that's so freakin' difficult to admit that transmen are men, and you (general) happened to have dated a sensitive, nice MAN? Why is it immediately chalked up to his 'woman-side/two spiritedness/dual gender/(assumed) socialization"? I mean, how is that any different than if I were to say, "Mahhh Woman is just so manly when she fixes the car?" Why is it rude to strip Mahhh Woman of her gender/sex when she does something stereotypically 'masculine', but it's perfectly acceptable to not only attribute 'being sensitive' as 'womanly', but also to then strip transmen of their sex/gender? Seriously?! If he cleans up his kitchen before you come over, did he clean it up because of his 'journey'?...his two-spiritedness?...because he 'was a woman once' and got such a good education in cleaning kitchens? Is he stripped of his manhood, once again, because he cleaned the kitchen, or because you (general) have to justify to others in the community that you've dated/are dating a man man man? Do people feel 'less stripped' of their 'queer community card' if they can keep their transman 'part woman'?

We don't date better. If you've been on a date with a guy who held doors for you, FAN-freakin'-tastic...transmen are not better daters or 'more aware'.

Yeah, I agree 100 percent that ME statements are fantastic and would definitely save a lot of this same conversation?


Dylan

[apretty]

outside of fetish, how would someone base their attraction on "being formerly" anything?

dylan--don't start because the title clearly says FTM.

;)

[Kenna]

Could someone tell me from what post onwards to create the new thread from?

Thank you Linus, but I'm not sure. Sorry. I just didn't care for the tone turning from fun and light, to snarky, bitter and judgmental. It made me feel if I chimed in, I'd be - or my words would be - "targeted" and fault found. I'm afraid to pick out a specific post, for fear that person may think I'm referencing just them or their posts. It's the change of tone and discussion that turned me away, not one specific post.

[Billy]

wow ..lol I came home all these posts ! I need read threw but I wanted to say thanks for who have posted :)

[Linus]

I've moved a whack of posts to over here: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=113253 to ensure that this thread continues as started and the other continues in a new thread.

[Toughy]

Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.


'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

[Kenna]

*snip snip*

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.
*snip snip*


Yep yep!! That's it!! They taste good!! ;) ;) For those that don't like my kinda apple pie, I'll make them a cherry pie or cheesecake. But..ummmmm...yummy! Pass the whipped topping and ice cream!

I'm not sure why I'm attracted to a particular person... or what attracts me to them. I don't have a list of expectations of physical markers or appearances to check off when I first meet someone. I don't find myself attracted to a "general" population of individuals or a multitude of specific gendered persons... it is about the individual for me. With each individual that has made my heart flutter (which has been VERY few)... it's always something different that attracted me. But reflecting upon the individuals that have certainly caught my attention... some of the common factors have been masculinity; common likes & dislikes; a definite, mutual, strong chemistry; mechanically inclined and they don't put me down for also loving all things mechanical; intelligent (and not afraid to be cocky or a smartass sometimes); strength (inner and physical); a very witty, fun personality; (a few other traits I could bore you with); and for some strange reason, dark hair, dark eyes and sun-kissed warm skin from working outside. I am NOT attracted to the "bad boy" type; but do get flutters when someone I'm attracted to likes motorcycles, large trucks and other heavy machinery (this goes along with my love of all things mechanical - especially things with large, loud engines -"MORE POWER BABY!")

What attracts me to someone who is TG or FtM? Ummmm :deepthoughts: maybe it's the way my heart skipped a beat when he stepped down out of his truck, all HAWT in his sunglasses, new jeans and dark hair just cropped short? YOWZA!! That look of confidence just made my heart flutter!! I took a double take that day! Yeah... and I got a picture of that truck too!! ;) ;)

What attracted me to my first crush/first B/F relationship years ago with someone who IDs as Soft Butch and has very strong masculine energy/traits? How she looked in her biker leathers...on the back of her Harley! or decked out for work in her oxford long sleeve shirt, jeans and work boots. Ummm, and her dark, wavy hair and sexy sunglasses. Damn! come to think of it... I NEVER did get a ride on that Harley!! But the sight of her very masculine "tough" self made me melt. She now has a crush on my sister!! LOL

Maybe I was attracted to a certain individual when they were so thoughtful when they handed me my favorite ice cream during a stressful moment?

I found them each attractive in their own unique, personal, individual, special way. Especially their personalities and their inner strength....their physical strength was an added bonus.

After I broke it off with my old crush... I used to think I couldn't be attracted to someone that wasn't Soft Butch. I've changed, and so have my personal attractions... but I still LOVE apple pie!!



I am attracted to human beings.
I am also attracted to the brains of human beings.
If you cannot get my brain to third base you are not going
to get my body to first base.

So I guess I cannot properly answer the original question because it is too limiting. Sorry.

Thank you very much for this, SuperFemme. Very well stated and I agree completely with the highlighted section. For me, it wasn't as limiting as the stress of possibly upsetting someone with my response. I didn't want to respond with generalizations. I knew that would trigger some folks. I have found myself attracted to FtM, TG, and Soft Butch individuals. I have considered dating Stone Butch individuals. But they MUST get my brain to third base...and must be on common ground with me, before moving my body anywhere near first base.

[apretty]

some of these posts have a tone of female self-subjugation.

[betenoire]

I personally am not the slightest bit surprised that a queer femme would have a preference for someone associated with her queer community (which wouldn't be the same as the gay male community that a bisexual man would tend to be a part of).

So gay and bisexual men are not queer? Is queerness something that is exclusive to those born female? Cuz I didn't get that memo. Some of the queerest people I know are men.

outside of fetish, how would someone base their attraction on "being formerly" anything?


:goodpost:

[cali4nyaprincess23]

A FTM yes I'd date ... a MTF no. *but, I'm happily taken so it doesn't even matter for me anymore... My honey is a stone butch, my daddy, my love.. and I couldn't be happier.. :) And hy is the perfect amount of masculine for me!!

[Toughy]

A FTM yes I'd date ... a MTF no. *but, I'm happily taken so it doesn't even matter for me anymore... My honey is a stone butch, my daddy, my love.. and I couldn't be happier.. :) And hy is the perfect amount of masculine for me!!

I'm curious about not dating an MtF. Would you date an MtF that was butch identified? If yes, would they need to have had bottom surgery?

I know one or two and they are clearly not men, but are butch women (and proud of it!). Both have had bottom surgery, as well as the best set of tits money can buy.

[CamBAMF]

Hey everyone,

I actually came to look at this thread to see the responses. I'm a FTM, and WAS pretty convince that only girls who are totally unstable would ever consider dating a trans-man. Since coming out trans, I have had 4 girl friends. 3 of which tried to make me stop transitioning by threatening to leave (even though they knew what I was before we began dating), and 1 who was okay with it but was very unstable herself. I had one hook up who basically said she loved my personality, but she was a lesbian and I was a boy- and she didn't want a boyfriend. It sucked majorly. So I've been single for a year now, and I pretty much gave up on the idea of love, marriage, family, etc.

Anyway, I just want to Thank everyone for there responses. You have no idea what it mean to me personally that this thread even exsists, and that there are people out there who actually care about a person rather then what they call themselves or how thier body looks. Maybe there is hope after all. :)

[Delish]

Let me start off by saying I did not read any posts prior to the 1st one.

MY attraction to FtM's is that they know who they are!! I have been in relationships where the butch has issues with sexuality and religion and completely forgets who she is. I love the struggle that FtM's have dealt with and is ready to move on with their lives!!! THEY ROCK!!!

[Billy]

Let me start off by saying I did not read any posts prior to the 1st one.

MY attraction to FtM's is that they know who they are!! I have been in relationships where the butch has issues with sexuality and religion and completely forgets who she is. I love the struggle that FtM's have dealt with and is ready to move on with their lives!!! THEY ROCK!!!

Thanks for posting :)

[Delish]

Thanks for posting :)

Thanks for being u Billy :)

[GoofyLuvr]

I'm curious about not dating an MtF. Would you date an MtF that was butch identified? If yes, would they need to have had bottom surgery?

I know one or two and they are clearly not men, but are butch women (and proud of it!). Both have had bottom surgery, as well as the best set of tits money can buy.
I wouldn't. If I wanted a butch woman, then I wouldn't be interested in tg now, would I? The physical attributes of a woman does nothing for me, so having the best set of tits money can buy would just be a waste of money in my eyes. LOL There's always been something missing for me when I was with butches, so don't think that an MTF is gonna be any better. Just one of those IMHO kinda things, ya know?But everybody is different, and thank goodness for that!

[Stormys500LMTD]

Looks would be a big one for me, how they handle themselves, how they would treat me as a Lesbian.

[dark_crystal]

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

[Liam]

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking, if seeing an FTM as female, makes you ineligible as a partner, I would respond yes, it does for me. I'm not interested in being vulnerable with anyone that sees me as female.

[dark_crystal]

I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you are asking, if seeing an FTM as female, makes you ineligible as a partner, I would respond yes, it does for me. I'm not interested in being vulnerable with anyone that sees me as female.

i personally don't think that i see an ftm as female...personally i think i see ftms as the only exceptions to my default prefernce for butches.

however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female

so the question is whether transmen think that a girl who will date a transguy but will not date a cisguy or a transwoman therfore does NOT see a transguy as male

[Nina]

however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female


I may need to read the whole thread, at the moment I am not in a space to do that...I don't understand the above statement...I wonder by whom you have been 'informed' these things?...are there some people who have the Last Say in what's what?

what I am saying is: if a transman ids as a man/male/non-female and someone thinks to themselves, 'he's not really a (real) man so it's okay for me to date him'...there is/are some big problem(s) going on...seems to me, it would be best to stand down and find someone who's id you can respect and are attracted to, and date them...

nina

[dark_crystal]

however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female


I may need to read the whole thread, at the moment I am not in a space to do that...I don't understand the above statement...I wonder by whom you have been 'informed' these things?...are there some people who have the Last Say in what's what?

what I am saying is: if a transman ids as a man/male/non-female and someone thinks to themselves, 'he's not really a (real) man so it's okay for me to date him'...there is/are some big problem(s) going on...seems to me, it would be best to stand down and find someone who's id you can respect and are attracted to, and date them...

nina

i don't think "'he's not really a (real) man so it's okay for me to date him"

however my (very insecure) trans ex jumped my sh!t a couple of times when he he asked me if i was attracted to so-and-so and i said "no, b/c he's a cisguy"

and from the two responses i have gotten, i am hearing that many others agree with him- the fact that i am attracted to transguys but not cisguys means that i don't see transguys as guys

this is not what i think, but it was what my ex thought and seems to be what Neen and Liam are telling me

[Jet]

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

No, I guess not.

[dark_crystal]

No, I guess not.

you guess i'm not ineligible? (and i see how my asking THAT is a testament to how convoluted the original question was...i seem to be very good at those)

[julieisafemme]

Well I am partnered with a transman and I would not date a cissexual man. I'm queer. I'm confused by this line of thinking and how I might be considered transphobic or "icky". I honor and respect my partner's gender. My not wanting to date cissexual men has nothing to do with my partner's gender. It has to do with my sexuality, which is queer.

[Liam]

i personally don't think that i see an ftm as female...personally i think i see ftms as the only exceptions to my default prefernce for butches.

however i have been informed that the fact that i WILL date ftms but will not date cismen or butch-identified mtfs means that i MUST see ftms as female

so the question is whether transmen think that a girl who will date a transguy but will not date a cisguy or a transwoman therfore does NOT see a transguy as male

So you don't see an ftm as female, well then you would be eligible, for me. I would suggest you ignore the "logic," being presented to you as something you MUST think.

[dark_crystal]

Well I am partnered with a transman and I would not date a cissexual man. I'm queer. I'm confused by this line of thinking and how I might be considered transphobic or "icky". I honor and respect my partner's gender. My not wanting to date cissexual men has nothing to do with my partner's gender. It has to do with my sexuality, which is queer.

So you don't see an ftm as female, well then you would be eligible, for me. I would suggest you ignore the "logic," being presented to you as something you MUST think.

thank you i feel reassured now lol...i definitely don't think of ftms as female but i have never had a good response to that particular accusation...cuz...the way i feel is the way i feel, regardless of whether it makes logical sense.

[paposeco]

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?


I get what your saying, it took a couple of readings, but I get it. :) Not here to judge you one way or the other. You have the right to like/love/desire whomever and however. Cool.
I know who I am, and don't need nor require anothere's opinion or perception of who I am or am not. People are always sooo preocupied about shovin' other people in little boxes, as if that would make the world or their lives a more logical place. Love and let Love be what Love is. (this label thing is wayyyy over rated)

[Billy]

i am very attracted to ftms, but i suspect that i am not the kind of partner most ftms would want...

i would never date a cisguy
i would never date a butch-identified mtf

my desire just does not get "pinged" by either of those- i am not going to explain or defend that any further than "pinged"...we can argue all day about what i should feel and why, but i have yet to succeed in deciding to feel or unfeel anything, so the best-reasoned and most persuasive argument in the world will get us exactly nowhere

therefore, despite being veryveryvery attracted to transguys, it seems obvious that i am attracted to the trans-energy and not the guy-energy

or if you want to be really dichotomous about it you could say i must not truly see transmen as men, because if i did i wouldn't be attracted to them, or that the fact that i will date anywhere on the butch-to-stone butch-to trans spectrum means that i am including transguys under the female umbrella

at least one fo the transguys i've dated has found that offensive

it is a sad situation, because i do think transguys are totally hot as their own category and as the partner of a trans person i cannot conceive of trying to impose my will on whether and how a transguy might choose to transition

i would like to hear from transguys- does seeing you like this make me ineligible as a partner?

Wow ..lol I think ya got Me on this one ....And you may put Me under any umbrella you like , cause I am known to wear a boa every now and then .But why female :)

[Soft*Silver]

I dont think I would date a CIS male again. But I most certainly would date a FtM. I hope this is not offensive to anyone, but I am overjoyed that FtMs have given men back to me. I have said this in the past and I will say it again....I can have incredible sex with CIS men, but the minute they open their mouth to speak, all the glamour and heat goes out the door. It is their socialization at fault. Something is distinctly different in the socialization of the CIS male and the FtM male. Having been put through or surrounded by female socialization efforts, FtMs can reach beneath my skin and touch me where it counts...places CIS men sometimes arent even aware exists. And because I have walked in the hetero world and have been with CIS Men, I dont treat FtMs I date like a real butchy woman. They are men to me. I am not threatened about losing my lesbian license because I am bowling with a FtM.

I also need to point out that this whole thought of "if I think this way, then I cant think that way" is a really bad teeter totter to be on. The wonderful thing about my opinions is that I dont limit them to a certain number of considerations. Its not just men and women, butch or femme, FtM or MtF, transgender or queer....I can literally see and dream and envision an incredible bouquet of possibilities. Especially in regard to me. I am not a straight girl. I am not just a lesbian. These two dont make me a bisexual because it insists on a binary system. And I am sorry, I have had much more than these two choices...I have had incredible dates and relationships with people who didnt fit the "standard"....

and thats how primal we go, sometimes, when we try to accessorize our orientations and genders with labels. Like we are discussing the breed standard...well, FtMs are like this and CIS males are like that and poodles are to be clipped to show off this trait and bulldogs are to be presented this way so the judge...yada yada yada...

I love me my FtMs. Not cuz they are girls or queers. But because they are men. Men who dont make me want to pay the check and leave the restaurant alone.....

[Diva]

Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.


'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........


I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

[chefhmboyrd]

can someone please explain to me WTF Cis means?
Mommie said that it is being the gender you were born/appear to be
uh...... WHAT?:seeingstars:

so....
a Cis Man is a bio man?
and a Cis Woman is a bio woman?

really?
am i getting this right?

HELP!!!!

[Soft*Silver]

I am not a native american. And I despise when capitalism eats up the Native Culture and only nourishes the whites. I fear for the individuals from both the Native Culture and the White Culture when they are insensitive to one another. I am appalled and saddened by how whites have desecrated and destroyed the land that they literally stole from the Native Americans.

In saying this (and yes it is all heart felt) I am also saddened when a member of the white culture tries to honor the traditions and spirituality of the Native Culture and gets slammed for not getting it "right". The reaction given to usage of the term "two spirited" is more racist and prejudicial than the intent behind the post about two spirits.

I have spent my lifetime trying to be as sensitive as possible to people and living things around me. But it has to work both ways if its really going to work and leave a positive imprint. Sensitivity has to be given when genuine efforts are made and failed. In either direction.

When its not given, and veiled (or unveiled) hostility is grouched out, it only serves to make the other defensive. And worse, any who witness it, also learn that any attempts that fail, will result in being attacked, so why bother to try?

I myself loath when white females write books about native culture and spirituality and make thousands of dollars off it and give nothing to the culture they took it from. I refuse to buy the books. And I have brought my daughter up to see this as wrong, as well. And she has taught others to see this. And they have taught others...it is the web of communication, tightened by the spirituality of people who regardless of what they call it, are honoring the spirituality of others.


tones in posts can put a stop to any learning..

as for two spirited folks, I actually would like to know more about it now that its been brought up that my understanding of it might be whitened and not be correct at all. So I am going to do my research..not because I was shamed or scolded into it, but because I can read the value of the post, regardless of the tone that was used.

and I believe some FtM people might indeed see themselves as two spirited. But I will let others speak on that regard...

[Liam]

can someone please explain to me WTF Cis means?
Mommie said that it is being the gender you were born/appear to be
uh...... WHAT?:seeingstars:

so....
a Cis Man is a bio man?
and a Cis Woman is a bio woman?

really?
am i getting this right?

HELP!!!!

This link was posted in another thread, you might find it illuminating:

http://juliaserano.livejournal.com/14700.html

[Leigh]

I do understand that a good many FTM's only view themselves as having a male spirit, Myself included, but what I don't get is why can't an FTM view himself as being two-spirited? Who says that a transguy can't also have even just a small big of a female spirit inside of him?

I don't get that :blink:

[betenoire]

I do understand that a good many FTM's only view themselves as having a male spirit, Myself included, but what I don't get is why can't an FTM view himself as being two-spirited? Who says that a transguy can't also have even just a small big of a female spirit inside of him?

I don't get that :blink:

I don't believe that Toughy's concern was about the insinuation that transguys might have/identify with a portion of female spirit - I DO believe that Toughy's concern was about appropriation.

[Spirit Dancer]

I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

As a native american woman and a two spirited person, I just wanted to share this with you all.

A direct translation of the Ojibwe term, Niizh manidoowag, "two-spirited" or "two-spirit" is usually used to indicate a person whose body simultaneously houses a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit.
We are proud to be two spirited and I honour both my female and male spirit and energy.

[Sachita]

As a native american woman and a two spirited person, I just wanted to share this with you all.

A direct translation of the Ojibwe term, Niizh manidoowag, "two-spirited" or "two-spirit" is usually used to indicate a person whose body simultaneously houses a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit.
We are proud to be two spirited and I honour both my female and male spirit and energy.

This is exactly right and although expressed in many words and cultures we all should strive for this balance on a microcosmic level. How we physically manifest and experience this here and now is our identity for this life time.

IMO there are two spirit 3rd sex people that present an androgynous form and spirit. It seems that, from what I have personally encounter, they are often thought of as transgendered and even thought that would mean "in transition" they clearly are happy where they are and often accept being called "trans". I'm not saying this is right or wrong and obviously everyone has a preference. I don't think its for any of us to judge or try and define. As with anything in life the rules often change to meet needs. We should try and be more flexible, especially when it comes to words.

Most of my life I've dated very masculine butches and those that considered themselves "third sex" their words not mine. I enjoyed and connected with them because I could sense and feel both male and female. When I decided to take it a step further and enter into the FTM world I realized it probably wasn't for me. If he wanted to live as a man yet balanced his masculine and feminine energy rather then get angry and deny I might be more receptive but thus far I have not experienced it.

[weatherboi]

Most of my life I've dated very masculine butches and those that considered themselves "third sex" their words not mine. I enjoyed and connected with them because I could sense and feel both male and female. When I decided to take it a step further and enter into the FTM world I realized it probably wasn't for me. If he wanted to live as a man yet balanced his masculine and feminine energy rather then get angry and deny I might be more receptive but thus far I have not experienced it.

maybe the guy got angry when you spoke with him about this because you were trying to get him to be who you wanted. maybe he was angry because you had an expectation that was not disclosed to him in the beginning of the rship. maybe you didnt give him a safe space. i don't know. my transition has been private and i like it that way. i still find it hard to talk about certain things about how i feel at a certain time of the month. my monthly reminder that my female body does not match my male mind. my therapy and support group talks about all that. the last thing i wanna deal with is my beloved having an expectation that i am male/female balanced. IMO i am weary of you because of your postings as of late. they could be taken as anti male and then i read this post and feel it is confirmed for me. soooo i am reading this as another post with an underlying transphobic message. the thread is what attracts you to ftms not what doesnt attract you to ftms. so why post something in here negative?? i don't get it??

[Leigh]

I know that there are women out there who won't or cannot, for one reason or another, date an FTM and thats ok but I think that if someone wants to express that they are unable to date an FTM it should be put into another thread not in this one. As an FTM Myself, I don't expect every woman out there to be able to date Me but because this thread is dedicated to those who are attracted to guys like Me I'd appreciate just hearing positive things about what attracts someone to us :)

[Sachita]

maybe the guy got angry when you spoke with him about this because you were trying to get him to be who you wanted. maybe he was angry because you had an expectation that was not disclosed to him in the beginning of the rship. maybe you didnt give him a safe space. i don't know. my transition has been private and i like it that way. i still find it hard to talk about certain things about how i feel at a certain time of the month. my monthly reminder that my female body does not match my male mind. my therapy and support group talks about all that. the last thing i wanna deal with is my beloved having an expectation that i am male/female balanced. IMO i am weary of you because of your postings as of late. they could be taken as anti male and then i read this post and feel it is confirmed for me. soooo i am reading this as another post with an underlying transphobic message. the thread is what attracts you to ftms not what doesnt attract you to ftms. so why post something in here negative?? i don't get it??

I'm sorry if I came across that way. It's not my intention. I responded to her post and my perception. You're probably right though in that my experience and opinions have changed. As for my past relationships it wasn't about any of that. Those observations I made later in retrospect. There were other issues. My reference was to two spirits and how it relates to FTM. I simply gave my opinion and honestly stated what I am attracted to and looking for. It wasn't transphobic or anything else.

here we go again...

[Toughy]

Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.


'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

This was my post....it's post #49. Diva responded to it a bit later on.....post #75. Diva's original post that caused my post was before #49.

And yes........my response was about cultural appropriation.

here is a link for a local two-spirit group http://www.baaits.org/

other two spirit info can be found here:
http://www.nativeout.com/

[Toughy]

I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

I totally get what you are saying here. My point is/was that unless he identifies as Native American, he is appropriating a Native concept.

I could call myself two-spirit.....it really does fit me.....however it would be appropriation..........even though I was actively involved in BAAITS at one time. I may have some Cherokee blood through my mother's mother's mother's mother, however that does not make me Native American.

[Soft*Silver]

I sit here drinking my morning (afternoon) coffee and am reading this thread.
A few things come to mind that I will share...

TO transition does not mean a simple nip and tuck here and there and wallahhh....someone is the gender they want to be.

One, they already ARE the gender they want to be. The transformation just aligns them up correctly.

Two, transition involve physical, mental, and spiritual alignments. Physical is just one part of it.

Three, anothe huge part of it is social. While the FtM is transitioning, they also must deal with the societal perceptions, which include family and loved ones. And also included members of their affiliations, including this forum.

Four, while they are transitioning, they will bump into people who are evolving. Some more evolved than others. Some evolved in many areas but not in this area.

Five, When words are offered,they will be read in exactly the level of evolution the reader is in, and will also be presented in exactly the level of evolution the writer is in.

Six, these two might not always match up

Seven, when this happens it might feel like a confrontation. Actually, its a unique opportunity to learn. And they will learn regardless of how it is handled.

Eight, what they learn will depend on how sensitively each will handle the other with

Nine, this is a necessary part of transitioning and evolving

Ten, we can all learn from one another. And support one another, with kindness or with flames...both indicate a deep investment in this process


I have learned quite a bit in this thread and I thank all the people who have contributed. I support all of you...wherever you are in your transitioning and evolvement. You have added to my evolution. I come to these sights so that I can connect with my community. And in doing so, I have had to learn to be more sensitive, be more understanding, shut my mouth more often than I was used to, and speak from my place and no one elses.

:moonstars:

[dark_crystal]

I can have incredible sex with CIS men, but the minute they open their mouth to speak, all the glamour and heat goes out the door. It is their socialization at fault. Something is distinctly different in the socialization of the CIS male and the FtM male. Having been put through or surrounded by female socialization efforts, FtMs can reach beneath my skin and touch me where it counts...places CIS men sometimes arent even aware exists.

i realized my earlier participation in this thread was something of a derail and i never actually answer the question that was asked...so my answer is- softness stole my answer lol

i have always been attracted to masculine energy but numb to the attractions of cismales

i came out when i was 19, but attempted to go straight very briefly when i was 23...omg that poor guy...i could not stand for him to behave in any way that was overtly masculine...which i found totally perplexing, b/c with a butch partner i would have found the exact same behaviors totally hot

it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me, but i can't stand for cismales to be masculine AT ALL

therfore FTMs are pretty much a dream come true lol

I also need to point out that this whole thought of "if I think this way, then I cant think that way" is a really bad teeter totter to be on.

i know but my brain only thinks in dichotomies...professionals are involved

[turasultana]

[QUOTE=dark_crystal;153636]
it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me/QUOTE]

This bit here. Really. Really?

[Mister Bent]

it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me, but i can't stand for cismales to be masculine AT ALL

therfore FTMs are pretty much a dream come true lol

i know but my brain only thinks in dichotomies...professionals are involved


it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me

This bit here. Really. Really?

I have to agree with turasultana.

If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

While you may have never met a butch you considered masculine enough for you (whatever that means, I didn't realize we were qualifying and quantifying now) doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I've met some very effeminate ftms, and some extremely masculine (including female identified) butches, all exist on a spectrum.

Either way, as a masculine person, I'm not offended by this statement, personally, because I'm extremely comfortable with my own masculinity. I am however, kind of disturbed by it.

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.

[Chancie]

<snip>

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.

I agree.

And 'not masculine enough'?

I sure hope I'm feminine enough.

[Leigh]

I like hearing about what attracts someone to guys like us, so can we get back to that pls?

For those who have spilled their guts about what they love about an FTM, thank you from this guy for doing so :)

[Jet]

I am FTM (currently in transition). But something tells me it's going to be hard to find someone who would want to date me.

Just a feeling I have...

[Soft*Silver]

Actually, I have heard some people say they only desire high femmes and the more femme the better. I am not a high femme and I dont take offense when someone says this because they are simply using the limits of the English language to express what they desire in a mate. I am simply a different type of femme and wouldnt even consider myself suitable for the person who only wants a high femme. Am I less a femme? No. I am secure enough in my femmeness not to feel attacked or undervalued.

It is obvious to me that Dark Crystal is stuggling with words to explain what she means. She DOES think in dichotomies, black and white, male female, butch femme...and yet I also see her struggling to get past the dichotomies. She is trying to get to the place where she is inclusive, not exclusive. So, I am not offended by her. I would be if she were being malicious in her intent but she isnt. Thats obvious to everyone. So my approach to her certainly wouldnt be to attack what she says, but to help her learn.

The FtMs I have been involved with have been kind gentlemen. Initially when I first became involved with FtMs, I had alot to learn too. I stumbled with words and yet, they helped me learn. I have been very lucky to have had some great dates. I mattered to them and they took the time to help me explore my dichotomies.

I hope DarkCrystal encounters people just as willing to help her grasp what is past her dichotomies...

[QUOTE=Mister Bent;153668][FONT="Arial"]I have to agree with turasultana.

[FONT="Arial"]If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

[Mister Bent]

Actually, I have heard some people say they only desire high femmes and the more femme the better. I am not a high femme and I dont take offense when someone says this because they are simply using the limits of the English language to express what they desire in a mate. I am simply a different type of femme and wouldnt even consider myself suitable for the person who only wants a high femme. Am I less a femme? No. I am secure enough in my femmeness not to feel attacked or undervalued.

The portion in bold is not parallel to what Dark Crystal said, and fails as a comparison; it's not the same as saying "it's never been possible for ------ femme to be feminine enough for me." We aren't talking about "butchness" (in the way you speak of "femmeness"), but masculinity. Is a "different type of femme" one less feminine than some other type of femme? Is it your assertion that "femmeness" is exactly the same thing as femininity? Is one a high femme because she is more/most feminine - or is there some other defining set of criteria?

I made it clear that I did not take offense, but found the statement to be one of qualification & quantification, which I find to be disturbing. Nor did I say anything about being "attacked" or "undervalued", you're reading something into my post that isn't there, it wasn't so personal for me (as I think I also made clear).

I continue to maintain that we can talk about what attracts us to FTMs using solely positive terms, not comparative ones that are disparaging of other identities.

It is obvious to me that Dark Crystal is stuggling with words to explain what she means. She DOES think in dichotomies, black and white, male female, butch femme...and yet I also see her struggling to get past the dichotomies. She is trying to get to the place where she is inclusive, not exclusive. So, I am not offended by her. I would be if she were being malicious in her intent but she isnt. Thats obvious to everyone. So my approach to her certainly wouldnt be to attack what she says, but to help her learn.

Again, as I stated in my post, I wasn't offended by her, nor did I think she was being malicious in her intent, so we're in agreement on that. Dark Crystal wasn't "attacked" she was challenged on some words she used. You're right, it was obvious to everyone. There was nothing personal in my post, or any of the others questioning her opinion.

[Ms. Tabitha]

The attraction comes from within. Like a moth to a flame. FTM's carry themselves differently, with a confidence and a pride that I find attractive.
I admire their strength and I definitely appreciate their male energy. The way he presents himself to others, this is not about putting on a show, in fact his behavior should come from within as does his character and attitude.
His mannerisms prove to be most attractive. Someone with self confidence tempered by a sense of humor, combined with intelligent conversational skills. A great attitude without the arrogance. Good manners and respect for his GF/Partner/Wife as an equal. Attentivness, directness and above all honesty. These things are so attractive and stand out over everything for me.

"Courtesy is as much a mark of a gentleman as courage." - Theodore Roosevelt

[dark_crystal]

[QUOTE=dark_crystal;153636]
it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me/QUOTE]

This bit here. Really. Really?

I have to agree with turasultana.

If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

While you may have never met a butch you considered masculine enough for you (whatever that means, I didn't realize we were qualifying and quantifying now) doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I've met some very effeminate ftms, and some extremely masculine (including female identified) butches, all exist on a spectrum.

Either way, as a masculine person, I'm not offended by this statement, personally, because I'm extremely comfortable with my own masculinity. I am however, kind of disturbed by it.

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.


I agree.

And 'not masculine enough'?

I sure hope I'm feminine enough.

because the last two words of my sentence were "for me," i can't imagine how the statement could be seen as me qualifying or quantifying anything in the world besides my own response to my past partners.

I am not talking about identities as concepts and i am not talking about specific individuals and i am not talking about potential individuals that may exist within an identity whom i have not yet met. The sentence was in the past tense and referred only to myself.

i am talking about myself and my past. How can anyone possibly be offended by my experience or my description of my experience? it does not involve anyone except me

[Soft*Silver]

Mr Bent, thank you so much for telling me how wrong I was in the way I interpreted your post and for getting us on the right track again....

[Soft*Silver]

Dear DC.

Your post was fine.

And we move on from here....


Dark Crystal wrote: i am talking about myself and my past. How can anyone possibly be offended by my experience or my description of my experience? it does not involve anyone except me [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER][/QUOTE]

[nycfem]

What doesn't! (i.e. Sometimes it simply feels that everything attracts me to Ftms!!!)

Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread and that's what popped into my head.

[Thinker]

A gentle moderating moment...

Before things get too far off track, let's please focus on the original intent of the thread.

It's possible (and preferred) to state what you *do* like and what *attracts* you to ___________ without tearing down anyone or anything else.

Just focus on the positive, please.

[SuperFemme]

shoes. it's the shoes. :blueheels:

[Soft*Silver]

SuperFemme!!! I am so glad to see you...GB-less! Been praying for you all day and night...to ease your pain..

yes...I do so love their shoes...and the way they wear their socks...

I do have a foot fetish....

[julieisafemme]

What is a FTM? I ask that because in another thread the differences in IDs are being discussed and what those IDs mean. And they mean many different things to many different people! My partner does not define himself as a FTM even though many looking at his experiences might define him that way. He's queer. I'm queer. He's a butch. I'm a femme. I am very happy with Mahhhh Man!

[Leigh]

I'm glad we're back on track :)

[turasultana]

Mr Bent, thank you so much for telling me how wrong I was in the way I interpreted your post and for getting us on the right track again....

I'm sorry I know we were asked to keep it on track but I don't want this post to just sit here unchallenged. That's really a condescending way to speak to someone who replied to you in a restrained, respectful manner.

again, sorry Thinker for the derail. I just had to say something.

[Soft*Silver]

just to inform you of my tone in that post was respectful not condescending. Please do not put "tones" to my words that are not there.

And I think if a mod gives a gentle moderation, he means it...


I'm sorry I know we were asked to keep it on track but I don't want this post to just sit here unchallenged. That's really a condescending way to speak to someone who replied to you in a restrained, respectful manner.

again, sorry Thinker for the derail. I just had to say something.

[Thinker]

I'm sorry I know we were asked to keep it on track but I don't want this post to just sit here unchallenged. That's really a condescending way to speak to someone who replied to you in a restrained, respectful manner.

again, sorry Thinker for the derail. I just had to say something.

It appears you misinterpreted the post.

Let it rest, and let the original and intended discussion continue. If you have any questions about it, please contact me via PM.

Thinker

[SuperFemme]

i like nice hands too.
a good manicure.
or rough hard working calloused hands.
of course, i prefer them still attached and not in a jar.
i'm picky like that.

oh. and concert t shirts.
i cannot date anyone that doesn't have some amazing concert t's.

[Queerasfck]

i like nice hands too.
a good manicure.
or rough hard working calloused hands.
of course, i prefer them still attached and not in a jar.
i'm picky like that.

oh. and concert t shirts.
i cannot date anyone that doesn't have some amazing concert t's.

Newsflash!!! You can't date!

[SuperFemme]

some people always rain on my delusional parade.

and i can tooooo date. it's just that my dating pool consists of one amazing guy. with concert t's. hahahaha. neener neener.

can i borrow your umbrella now?

[GoofyLuvr]

I don't get it. Why can't it just be accepted that some of us are only attracted to ftm/transguys? Lesbians have argued for years that their feelings are not a decision that they make, it just is. Why is it so hard to accept that there are those of us who "just are" attracted to transguys. Maybe transguys have a certain pheromone that is different, who the hell knows. I think the fact that this is so dissected all the time is a really sad statement, though, of how judgemental people can still be, even when they think they aren't. Live and let live. Love and let love. Who cares who is attracted to whom, for God's sake, as long as everyone is happy with where they are. I really hope we can get back to the postive thread this started out to be, what attracts us to FTM's, cos there sure is a lot of attraction for me! :)
:2cents:

[Gemme]

shoes. it's the shoes. :blueheels:

i like nice hands too.
a good manicure.
or rough hard working calloused hands.
of course, i prefer them still attached and not in a jar.
i'm picky like that.

oh. and concert t shirts.
i cannot date anyone that doesn't have some amazing concert t's.

And they must part their hair on the left. But only on Bastille Day.

[Jet]

And they must part their hair on the left. But only on Bastille Day.

whew, too tough. and a hard act to follow.

[Stacy]

I love every damn thing about my FTM Transsexual husband! (I need that on a t-shirt!)

[imperfect_cupcake]

I've thought about this and thought about the FTQ/FTM that I've dated/screwed around with to see if there was anything unifying about them that may be different than anyone else I've dated.

The only thing that seems to stand out is the ones I've dated/fucked about with were very bender-ish. In that, they were *totally* comfortable in queering their masculinity and coming up with their own masculine gender now that body matched their head a bit more. Thus we could get up to some seriously fun (for me me me and them them them) queering/bender-sex role play.

The butches I tended to date at this time were a little more uncomfortable with that kind of mind gender-fuck. I'm sure tons were able to, I just had no access to any as at the time no one was admitting to any of it, thus I couldn't ask any out. I did discover that once my partners were comfortable with who I was and that they trusted I respected them, they got more willing and curious and able.

I think, at the time and place, the FTQ/M I had access to were just there a bit faster.

That's really the only difference I can think of.

BI (before Inki) in london, I did turn down a couple of straight FtM dates as I didn't really see that jiving. They didn't see themselves as heteroqueer or queer in anyway. So I said no. I don't date straight blokes. TBH, I didn't (and don't) really know very many straight FtMs. Most that I know ID as queer or heteroqueer (and half of those aren't queer in sexuality - they don't have sex with other men of any origin, they just feel their journey aligns them with a queer philosophy and outlook and bendy sex games lol)

but as for why those FtQ/M were attractive? Nothing about them being FtM. They displayed characteristics I find hot in anyone - cheeky, funny, thoughtful, non-rigid, able to take the piss, treat me like a human rather than "a girl", cocky (in the good way: see cheeky) and self confident.

Actually that's not entirely true - there are certain aspects in femmes I find attractive and hot that I don't find attractive in butches or FtQ/Ms. And vice versa. hmn. Have to think about that.

[IrishGrrl]

Everytime I think about this subject I come up with nothing. I think what it all boils down to is I"m attracted to energy. Generally speaking, I tend to gravitate more to abundant masculine energy more, with a touch of feminine. Most butches, and FTM's I"ve dated embrace thier inner fag. I like that. It's hot.

[Thinker]

men of any origin

I like this.

I'd like to steal it (and give you credit).

[SelfMadeMan]

I love every damn thing about my FTM Transsexual husband! (I need that on a t-shirt!)

:rrose: I love you! Thank you for your support baby.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I like this.

I'd like to steal it (and give you credit).

No need. I'm sure I picked it up from someone somewhere at some point... :*

[chefhmboyrd]

i have been told by several women that the pheromones play a big part in the attraction......
one in particular said she actually got a little woozy when i first started coming around, and she couldn't quite put her finger on it......:sunglass:

i think it has a lot to do with the personality, confidence, and attitude.
just because someone is attracted to one FTM, doesn't mean that they like all FTMs
conversely, one can be attracted to femmes and stumble upon an FTM or Butch that "does it" for them.

i am just glad to have admirers, being a leo and all, it warms the little cockles of my heart.................:byebye:

[Stacy]

i am just glad to have admirers, being a leo and all, it warms the little cockles of my heart.................:byebye:

:sunglass:You have little cockles in your heart??

[chefhmboyrd]

:sunglass:You have little cockles in your heart??

uh huh, doesn't everyone?

cockle 1 (ˈkɒk ə l)

— n
1. any sand-burrowing bivalve mollusc of the family Cardiidae, esp Cardium edule ( edible cockle ) of Europe, typically having a rounded shell with radiating ribs
2. any of certain similar or related molluscs
3. short for cockleshell
4. a wrinkle or puckering, as in cloth or paper
5. a small furnace or stove
6. cockles of one's heart one's deepest feelings (esp in the phrase warm the cockles of one's heart )

— vb
7. to contract or cause to contract into wrinkles

[Stacy]

I learn something new every day. Today really is a great day now that I know I have little cockles too. :D

[SuperFemme]

i have been told by several women that the pheromones play a big part in the attraction......
one in particular said she actually got a little woozy when i first started coming around, and she couldn't quite put her finger on it......:sunglass:

i think it has a lot to do with the personality, confidence, and attitude.
just because someone is attracted to one FTM, doesn't mean that they like all FTMs
conversely, one can be attracted to femmes and stumble upon an FTM or Butch that "does it" for them.

i am just glad to have admirers, being a leo and all, it warms the little cockles of my heart.................:byebye:

i still think it's all the cutesy puppies and animals you post that lure in unsuspecting femmes with a penchant for cute. <3

however...thanks to you i am again in trouble with my beloved. i may have said "suck my cockles" to him this morning. he's not laughing.

[dixie]

i still think it's all the cutesy puppies and animals you post that lure in unsuspecting femmes with a penchant for cute. <3

however...thanks to you i am again in trouble with my beloved. i may have said "suck my cockles" to him this morning. he's not laughing.

So glad cutesy puppies don't lure me in. However, big bad wolves get me every time... :|

"suck my cockles"...i now have a new favorite phrase thanks to you... i *heart* you...

[dixie]

As for me personally, I can't really say that there is a specific thing that attracts me to ftms. It is the same thing that attracts me to male ID butches, female ID butches, femmes, etc. It is the essence of the true persons themselves and not contingent on a label or ID or gender basis. My connection to a person on intellectual, emotional and intimate levels is what matters to me... (f)

[Kent]

Just a little bump...

[Quintease]

Crazy! There is some really fantastic stuff in this thread and some really offensive stuff.

< -- married to a transguy and no I don't feel the need to date bio men in order to validate his gender. He's big and smart enough to do that himself.

[aishah]

passionately in love with a transguy who identifies as straight in some ways and queer in others. and also identifies as butch.

i see my partner as male and i relate to him that way. when i look at him i don't think "female" at all. he does have a strong queer butch energy that i love...and he's comfortable identifying as butch. when we got together he was still at the beginning of his transition and he's still figuring out a lot of things himself. i think if he'd identified as straight to the point that i felt like he also expected me to id as straight or something it may not have worked...but he also has strong ties to the queer community, and he was attracted to me in large part because i'm a queer femme. he doesn't expect me to be any different than that. for me...it's never been a challenge to see him as a man. i cannot wrap my head around how people constantly misgender him. because when i look at him, i see a man. our relationship dynamics and our sex are queer and we like it that way. partly because he is a stone butch and i am a stone femme, our relationship does feel and look different than relationships i've had with cismen. but that doesn't change the fact that i relate to him as a man. one thing that attracted me to him, besides the physical and the fact that he is a hot butch (who is also intelligent, caring, fun to be around, considerate, etc.), is that he affirmed my identity and loved me for who i am (as a queer stone femme). he does not think he is very physically attractive, but i disagree wholeheartedly. he makes me melt. and i'm lucky.

i'm attracted to people of any gender. i tend to be especially attracted to people who id as butch (whether female, ftm, mtf, or other). but i'm also attracted to mtfs, people who identify as other genders, femmes, straight cisguys, etc.

[Quintease]

My hubbie's straight and 100% looks, sounds and smells a man. We had a few problems in the beginning. He resented me continuing to ID as a lesbian, while the heterosexuals in his life insisted I should call myself bisexual or straight in order to validate his gender *rolls eyes*

It was only when I pointed out how misogynistic that was, being expected to 'change' my sexual orientation in order to please my man, (it's not like changing your name or style of dress, but an integral part of me that I was born with), then he realised how ridiculous that was. A transguy is like everyone else, if he needs to change his partner in order to be happy, then he has problems and will probably never be happy.

[G Snap!]

(whew, it took me a little to read through this thread. And I didn't read the "expectations" thread either...)

I can't relate what attracts me to ftm's because I have been with just biomales until I started seeing @ and I never considered ftm until I met him. I never knew any until I met @ and I honestly don't know if I will date others as I am in this relationship for the long run.

You see, I love everything about him. The way he looks, smells, feels, tastes, and (did I get all the senses?) sounds (and his voice is a whole 'nuther story.)
I absolutely love love love living with him, he is everything I love about men without the "unpleasantries" (I am not listing those.) And he is as good of a cook as he is good looking. I am spoiled!

I don't think of him being any more sensitive, as I know a few butches who are outright d*cks (pardon my term) and are less sensitive than some bio males I know. Sensitivity comes with being a good communicator and listener and this is a learned skill, through upbringing or classes.
I (like to think) as a ftm progresses in their transformation and become settled in the body they once hated, they learn to love themselves and are a happier person and are more receptive to listen to others. They are (perhaps) better men because they try to be good men and are secure in/with their manhood. The only insult I ever find (to him) is anyone assuming I am a lesbian because I am with him, as it means they do not see him as a man.

I don't have any expectations of him because he was once female. I find having expectations just sets ones self up for disappointment. But he is forgiving during those times of the month when I feel like poo. Bio guys have no idea what it is like.

[Nadeest]

One of the chatrooms/forums that I hung out in, when I first started transitioning was primarily for transgendered people, especially for those that were considering transition. There I met an ftm that I later ended up dating. He was the first person that I had dated, since I had started transition.
He was so sweet and caring towards me, that I've had a soft spot for transmen since then. For one thing, I tend to feel a lot safer with them, then I do with cis-males. Also, they have some understanding of the stuff that I've tended to go through, during transition.
I would also date a transwoman for that same reason, if any asked me out.

[Kent]

Just a little bump... :fishing:

[Ginger]

It's funny that I finally noticed this thread, while I'm watching Love Actually on cable.

It came out in 2003 and I was in love with a transguy then.

I spent the weekend with him before Christmas, and we went to this movie together.

Honestly, one thing I loved about dating him, I guess it makes me sound like a jerk, was the privilege it suddenly restored in my life.

I'm blond and smallish and he's tall and dark and we made a very striking couple. Het couples, especially attractive het couples—attractive according to the most conventional of standards—are treated very, very well in restaurants and bars.

We were always shown to a great table, and strangers told us how nice we looked as a couple.

Someday, I want the world to change, and I want butch-femme, butch-butch, femme-femme, old-young, black-white and non-conventionally attractive couples to be shown the best table in the house, and fawned over, and appreciated.

It's already happening, in some places. I've found some of those places. I want to find more of them.

[Tony]

It's funny that I finally noticed this thread, while I'm watching Love Actually on cable.

It came out in 2003 and I was in love with a transguy then.

I spent the weekend with him before Christmas, and we went to this movie together.

Honestly, one thing I loved about dating him, I guess it makes me sound like a jerk, was the privilege it suddenly restored in my life.

I'm blond and smallish and he's tall and dark and we made a very striking couple. Het couples, especially attractive het couples—attractive according to the most conventional of standards—are treated very, very well in restaurants and bars.

We were always shown to a great table, and strangers told us how nice we looked as a couple.

Someday, I want the world to change, and I want butch-femme, butch-butch, femme-femme, old-young, black-white and non-conventionally attractive couples to be shown the best table in the house, and fawned over, and appreciated.

It's already happening, in some places. I've found some of those places. I want to find more of them.

Island, you do not sound like a jerk & you should never apologize for your feelings. They are truly the only things we own outright that can NEVER be taken from us. I've read thru a lot of the threads & ran into something talking about White Male Privelage. I almost hesitate to voice my opinion here, but it is what it is. I have lived & been accepted as a man for over 30 years. I'm dark haired (Sicilian) & have a serious addiction to blondes. Lol. I never knew what this WMP was as I've lived as a straight man & been with straight women. I also feel no guilt at whatever WMP has afforded me thruout my life. But I have to say, you ending comments about other couples; I never gave that much thought & now I too hope that EVERY couple can enjoy that privelage. Being called a striking couple. Best seat in the house. Treated as all humans should be treated.
Thank you, Island for this response. You promoted a thought process I hadn't had. I appreciate that.

[Quintease]

Honestly, one thing I loved about dating him, I guess it makes me sound like a jerk, was the privilege it suddenly restored in my life.

I'm blond and smallish and he's tall and dark and we made a very striking couple. Het couples, especially attractive het couples—attractive according to the most conventional of standards—are treated very, very well in restaurants and bars.

We were always shown to a great table, and strangers told us how nice we looked as a couple.

Someday, I want the world to change, and I want butch-femme, butch-butch, femme-femme, old-young, black-white and non-conventionally attractive couples to be shown the best table in the house, and fawned over, and appreciated.


Yes, I can relate. My husband and I look really good together, everyone comments on it. Everywhere we go we get smiles and compliments.

In the beginning I hated it. I felt like society was rewarding me for doing the right thing and dating a man.

Then a few things happened. I suddenly discovered how awful and insidious transphobia can be. I realised how hard it is to keep your mouth shut when people, who see you as a straight couple, let you in on their homophobia. I realise how scary and fragile living 'stealth' can be.

A bit of perspective reminded me that we are indeed still part of the wider queer society and nothing will ever take that away. Nothing except equality for all.

[Leigh]

I've dated 2 FTM's in my lifetime & they will always have a special place in my heart :)

[sara-bera]

I like their scent, their body language, their walk, the way they think, their individuality. I like the comfort they have in their skin; the comfort that comes of knowing exactly who and what one is because of the work they've done to get there. I like that they appreciate and encourage my girlishness. They are often protective and old fashioned -I like that a great deal. I like that they are inherently different from me - I like the balance that creates in a relationship.

[Soft*Silver]

amazing what a year or two will teach you.

I said I would never date a CIS male. And yet, i am involved with one. But, he is also one who is considering transitioning from male to female. But for now, stands male except when with me and my family and friends.

Of course I also said I would never date a femme and I know now I would. He has very femme enery, but is very masculine appearing.

And I said I would never be interested in poly and I would consider it now.

I quit trying to split hairs about gender and orientation. I take people as they want to be taken. I am who I am, as well.

I like what someone said about people resenting she continued to claim she is a lesbian even tho she is with an FTM. I am a lesbian even tho I am with chrissy. he considers himself bisexual.

in saying all this, I am still very attracted to FtMs.

[Kent]

Bumpin' this one again... :fishing:

[gezibel]

I once dated a mtfperson beforeshe had any surgeries. I treated her the same as any other person I ever dated. She decided to tell me on our 1st date. She was uncomfortable about sex & I totally respected her decision. Honestly she was one of the best people I ever dated. She was beautiful, funny, sexy, & more open to discussion than alot of people who are comfortable with their bodies... :-)

[Kent]

Just a little bump...

[Girl_On_Fire]

I can't really explain the attraction in words. It's an energy thing. There's a certain energy trans guys have that I'm drawn to like a magnet. And sometimes I don't even know right away or they don't. I have two exes who have both transitioned but identified as butch women when I dated them. *shrugs and laughs* Go fig!

[Leigh]

I also had two ex's who started as butch when we began dating and I was with them when they began transitioning. There is just something about their energy that just gets to me; I cant describe it but its the attitude, the swagger, the way they carry themselves and are proud of who they are - I'm very attracted to FTM's :)

[Heavenleahangel]

Ok, my turn. I have ALWAYS known I was seriously attracted to the "butchiest", hardest partners/dates I could find and later came to know and call them ftms. I absolutely adore/ enjoy/want an ftm that is comfortable in their own skin and identity to partner with.
Don't get me wrong. I have helped 2 people in different stages of transitioning and absolutely would help someone else in their incredible journey to find themselves and be happy. While I never really thought of myself as a "lesbian" per se, I have come to accept that some ignorant people will label me this no matter what.
The reason I am attracted and want to partner with an ftm is complex in itself. I am attracted to the confidence, maturity, swaggar, energy. I absolutely love kissing my partner in public and when some ignorant ass gawks or looks wondering "could it be?" "Is that a girl and a guy" type crap, I just smile and know in my heart it doesn't matter what the people think. I am happy with who I am and hy is happy with me!
I love the energy and time put into getting ready to go out and I can not stress enough how much I love the bowchickawowwow dance! The time taken. The respect of boundaries. Knowing in my heart and mind that I "get it" and understand that sometimes the mind doesn't always match the body. The exact same things that make it "taboo" in others' eyes are a turn on for me! I crave it! Want it! Need it! Not just anyone has this. Only those who are secure and honest enough to live their own life for their own happiness. That makes me smile...

[FemmeBibliophile]

I, like others, agree that it's an energy thing.

But I also have to say that I have been treated the absolute best out of any relationships by the FtMs that I have dated.

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

At the end of the day, it's just who I am attracted to.

[GraffitiBoi]

I, like others, agree that it's an energy thing.

But I also have to say that I have been treated the absolute best out of any relationships by the FtMs that I have dated.

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

At the end of the day, it's just who I am attracted to.

I heart the June Cleaver lifestyle and it just FEELS right to hold doors open, etc for a femme... Don't get me wrong... I'm not 'macho' and I do appreciate when a femme does things in return... But there's comfort for me in the 'old-fashioned' lifestyle or the old-school butch-femme dynamic.

[GraffitiBoi]

I also had two ex's who started as butch when we began dating and I was with them when they began transitioning. There is just something about their energy that just gets to me; I cant describe it but its the attitude, the swagger, the way they carry themselves and are proud of who they are - I'm very attracted to FTM's :)

I can only speak for myself... but the change in my energy when I began transition was because I finally felt comfortable... I felt like I was finally me... I found my confidence.

Sadly, I let go of my confidence and my identity due to something we are not allowed to talk about in the forums... But regardless of the reason, I have found myself again and have my confidence and energy back.

[GraffitiBoi]

I do appreciate when a femme does things in return...

I need to specify that I am not talking about her holding doors open for me... I mean other things... femme-type things... I don't expect the femme I am with to make me dinner, but if she does I am very grateful and appreciative... I'll even do the dishes! LOL

[Bèsame*]

I understand. And it's great to be appreciated for the little things :)I need to specify that I am not talking about her holding doors open for me... I mean other things... femme-type things... I don't expect the femme I am with to make me dinner, but if she does I am very grateful and appreciative... I'll even do the dishes! LOL

[Darbonaire]

I'm very attracted to FTM's :)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

Wish you lived closer...<smile>....

[Darbonaire]

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

Yes indeed....it's how I believe it should be....thanks for noticing when we do it...<smile>....

[Heavenleahangel]

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

Yes indeed....it's how I believe it should be....thanks for noticing when we do it...<smile>....

I am what I call old fashioned/ old school and I absolutely agree with the respect and dynamics of the relationship. I seem to be a million miles away from every single, stable ftm on the Planet! Just my luck!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Hmm, I am one of those Femme's that's attracted to fella's with Feminist values and are confident in themselves to let me lead the relationship.

That kinda person if fucking HAWT!

[BrutalDaddy]

Hmm, I am one of those Femme's that's attracted to fella's with Feminist values and are confident in themselves to let me lead the relationship.

That kinda person if fucking HAWT!



That's what I absolutely love about this place, Snow. We can all come in with different likes and dislikes and we all have a place to come and talk about it. That rawks.


Loving That,
Brute.

[Toughy]

everybody who keeps talking about and being supportive of a 'june cleaver lifestyle'............

Did any of you actually LIVE during the 50's? I did. It was oppressive, sexist with some misogyny tossed in and certainly the 50's had little to do with June and Ward, Ozzie and Harriet or Father Knows Best. Hell of a time to grow up as a girl........even as a boy

[Darbonaire]

everybody who keeps talking about and being supportive of a 'june cleaver lifestyle'............

Did any of you actually LIVE during the 50's? I did. It was oppressive, sexist with some misogyny tossed in and certainly the 50's had little to do with June and Ward, Ozzie and Harriet or Father Knows Best. Hell of a time to grow up as a girl........even as a boy

I'm sorry your life wasn't pleasent then...my family was dysfunctional no matter what decade they were in....lol....but let's just say I miss manners, courtesy, gentleness, education, family time at dinner, less crime, more overall trust & honesty.

At least that is what I experienced. I belive that common courtesy & manners should ALWAYS be exhibited in life no matter what year. I believe that gentlemanly actions & manners are lacking a lot now days....as in common politeness & courtesy.

No the '50's may not have been perfect, you're right.....but, they did have some things I miss now days. It's a shame that these things are referred to as "old time' values & traits.

Jonathan

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm sorry your life wasn't pleasent then...my family was dysfunctional no matter what decade they were in....lol....but let's just say I miss manners, courtesy, gentleness, education, family time at dinner, less crime, more overall trust & honesty.

At least that is what I experienced. I belive that common courtesy & manners should ALWAYS be exhibited in life no matter what year. I believe that gentlemanly actions & manners are lacking a lot now days....as in common politeness & courtesy.

No the '50's may not have been perfect, you're right.....but, they did have some things I miss now days. It's a shame that these things are referred to as "old time' values & traits.

Jonathan



Manners, courtesy are not gender nor time specific, I feel that to be a very popular misconception when it comes to the "Cleavers" reference.

I won't even go into the whole racism, classism issues with the Cleavers.

[Duchess]

All I can say is Yummy!!!

[*Anya*]

Oh, the good old 1950's! How about this article which is typical of women's magazines of the time?

Sounds super doesn't it?

Signed,

Anya
(The anti-June Cleaver)


Housekeeping Monthly - May 13, 1955:

*Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.

*Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary men.

*Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.

*Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables.

*Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.

*Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.

*Be happy to see him.

*Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.

*Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

*Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner or other places of entertainment without you.
Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax.

*Your goal: To try and make sure your home is a place of peace, order, and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit.

*Don’t greet him with complaints and problems.

*Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom.

*Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.

*Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

^Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.

*A good wife always knows her place.

[DMW]

Actually, i prefer Donna Reed. Or Alice Kramden. I guess i am not that much of a gentleman. To each his own. Both of them had sexy ass brains, wit and sassiness. That special femme power that only a femme can have. Not to mention, the ability to do all of the stuff that i don't do or don't care to do. And all the other special things...those little girly/woman things...that make life better.

[Gemme]

Yanno, every few years this argument pops up. It's a case of what floats someone's boat, not making social commentaries.

The 50s era was not exactly beneficial to the progress of women's rights. It kinda sucked at it in a big way. But if someone wants to dress in an apron and take care of their man/guy/butch/wife/etc in ways that simulate that time, then what beeswax is it to anyone else HOW they do it as long as it's not abusive? Really? C'mon now.

That's like you (general you) saying "I like to beat my honey's ass black and blue before church every Sunday" and getting shit on for saying it. It's their thing and their kink, if you will. Let's see someone tell someone else how to do their kink and see what kind of fiasco we have. No one is pushing it on anyone else. Those in favor of this lifestyle are expressing their love for it.

Someone please explain the problem with that to me. They aren't demanding women's rights be taken back to that time; they are saying 'this is how I am and what I like'. Period.

[Dance-with-me]

The 50s era was not exactly beneficial to the progress of women's rights. It kinda sucked at it in a big way. But if someone wants to dress in an apron and take care of their man/guy/butch/wife/etc in ways that simulate that time, then what beeswax is it to anyone else HOW they do it as long as it's not abusive? Really? C'mon now.
I have to agree with this. First, I didn't read the "June Cleaver" lifestyle as a commentary on anything other than the image/surface ideal - I certainly didn't read it as a denial of the issues behind that actual time period.

But the main thing is that as a strong feminist, I believe that women have the right to choose, INCLUDING the right to choose to be a "housewife" and meet her spouse at the door with a cocktail in hand, wearing an apron and pearls as she cooks her spouse's favorite meal. Women choices should be respected even if they choose things that were once considered anti-feminist: Posing nude, being a sex worker, modeling as a pin-up girl, rarely if ever going out of the house without being perfectly made-up and coiffed, being a "girl" or "submissive" to a "Daddy" or "Master," etc. If those things are being forced on her by someone who is abusive and controlling, or she's doing them only because of the lack of any viable economic choices, or because of her own lack of self-esteem, or because she's been very conditioned to believe that's the only thing she can do well, that's an entirely different story. But I would like to at least presume that when anyone talks about something like that here, they are talking about a consensual relationship where both parties truly have equal power.

[Canela]

I like that I don't have to be anything other than myself, a girlie girl, a lady, a woman, a mother...and he is my man, bf, mister and doesn't have a problem with me being me and him being him. We just are...

I had a long with term relationship with someone who was soft butch and that person tried to do and control everything and kept me from contributing to our relationship in the way I (a) female, girlie girl, mama, woman like me does...it pretty much cut me out of being a part of the whole thing. I was supposed to just do as I was directed to do instead of directing, as well...I couldn't hang with that. I know not everyone is that way, but for ME, there was no "ying-yang" thing going on there.

I was raised very old school, but with a feminist influence.

I love/enjoy being a care giver, a mother, a lover, and a woman that belongs with a male energy...It just feels right for me. I don't cater to my man because I have to, I do it because I want to. I am that way...if anyone came to my home for let's say a dinner party, I would cater to you as well...it's just the way I roll...not because I am being submissive, but because I care to be good to you and ensure you are enjoying your time visiting me/us. The same with me and my man/bf/FtM...I do it because I want him to be comfortable, make it easier for him to relax...put him in a good frame of mind...I like doing those types of things. (I also like them being done for me...)

That said, I also like to be a strong, empowered, intelligent woman...I like to have a voice in my dealings whether personal or professional. I like to have the power to say yes or no to things in our life that affect us (he and I) and I am not militant about it unless "I" feel my rights or feelings have been violated/overlooked/trampled upon and then you (general you/they) WILL definitely hear from me.

I have found that my voice, my sphere of influence, while not very large does have a deep resonating effect on some and I use it wisely. By wisely, I mean that I encourage all people/genders/lifestyle/etc... to be all they can be, and do all they can do, follow their hearts and dreams and goals and what they want to do to find their own joy in life. Because in the end, it's not about how society, I, or anyone else tells us how to live to be happy. It's our own personal choices that will make us so.

So, back to the topic at hand--okay, so I love me some FtM's.
(One in particular that I'm rather fond of...)

[Darbonaire]

Manners, courtesy are not gender nor time specific, I feel that to be a very popular misconception when it comes to the "Cleavers" reference.

I won't even go into the whole racism, classism issues with the Cleavers.

Is tht we ALL get to agree with what's right for us & we ALL get a voice & we ALL deserve to be allowed to do such...at least in this venue...yes?

I find manners & courtesy are SORELY lacking nowdays....maybe people don't have time for them? Or maybe people are SO selfish it doesn't occur or matter to them...but, you are right they are not & should not be time or gender specific..<smile>

Jonathan

[The_Lady_Snow]

Actually, i prefer Donna Reed. Or Alice Kramden. I guess i am not that much of a gentleman. To each his own. Both of them had sexy ass brains, wit and sassiness. That special femme power that only a femme can have. Not to mention, the ability to do all of the stuff that i don't do or don't care to do. And all the other special things...those little girly/woman things...that make life better.


What are girly/woman things?

Can you please clarify what these special traits are, I didn't get a manual or any kind of instruction booklet on all things woman/girly...


Is tht we ALL get to agree with what's right for us & we ALL get a voice & we ALL deserve to be allowed to do such...at least in this venue...yes?

I find manners & courtesy are SORELY lacking nowdays....maybe people don't have time for them? Or maybe people are SO selfish it doesn't occur or matter to them...but, you are right they are not & should not be time or gender specific..<smile>

Jonathan



Correct I believe we can all state our preferences or desires WITHOUT having to step on the backs of others OR setting a hierarchy of what makes FEMME a Femme and what it's expected of a FEMME.

We (Femme's) come in all kinds of varieties, values, etc etc. I'm all for everyone doing what floats their boat.

But when someone uses words like "scoff" it's irritating because it's not "scoffing" it's a choice (just like the choice to be in a June Cleaver existance) and to paint those of us who don't in a negative tone is and was totally unnecessary when describing one's own desires and wants.

This has been stated over and over again when this whole "50's" kinda Femme gets brought up, those of us who don't choose it get painted in a bad light.


True story.

[Gemme]

This has been stated over and over again when this whole "50's" kinda Femme gets brought up, those of us who don't choose it get painted in a bad light.


True story.

Well, it definitely shouldn't be like this either.

In the words of the departed Rodney King, "Can we all get along?"

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well, it definitely shouldn't be like this either.

In the words of the departed Rodney King, "Can we all get along?"



Yes we should, it's not hard to state one's preferences and keep those preferences, desires, wants, needs, and must haves. It's when those things are stated with a quick jab, at those who don't roll that way are made that the problems start.

We just had this very same convo not even a few months ago in another thread when "50's nostalgia" was brought up.

[DMW]

What are girly/woman things?

Can you please clarify what these special traits are, I didn't get a manual or any kind of instruction booklet on all things woman/girly...


I don't believe there is a manual or instruction booklet out on all things woman and girly....and i don't believe that everyone would feel the same about what is "woman or girly"..so, the booklet wouldn't work for everyone i suppose.

However, for me...Woman/girly attributes that i like...her smell, her voice, her smile, her walk. Her fingernail polish, her perfume,her hair and her kisses. All of her female energy.
Those are just some of the little things that i like...that actually amount to a lot. I won't go into anymore detail regarding the other little things that i adore about a femme. Not here anyway.

I agree that manners and common courtesy are not gender or time specific either.

[weatherboi]

For me, describing everyday kindness and manners under the guise of old fashioned/old school is just antiquated thinking. In my world, none of these things are gender specific, age specific, or heteronormative specific. The days are long gone that I need to adopt herteronormative ideals in order for me validate my relationship or my gender. It is no longer necessary for me.

I know the many reasons why I am attracted to Her and She is attracted to me. The list gets longer everyday and it strengthens the endless nature to attraction and love. It is this endless exchange that grows this Femme led relationship.

Chivalry, manners, and attraction are not dead...they just doesn't always look or act like an old 50's sitcom, nor does it only belong to any gender or culture.

I am not sure why kink was brought up.

[Darbonaire]

What are girly/woman things?

Can you please clarify what these special traits are, I didn't get a manual or any kind of instruction booklet on all things woman/girly...






Correct I believe we can all state our preferences or desires WITHOUT having to step on the backs of others OR setting a hierarchy of what makes FEMME a Femme and what it's expected of a FEMME.

We (Femme's) come in all kinds of varieties, values, etc etc. I'm all for everyone doing what floats their boat.

But when someone uses words like "scoff" it's irritating because it's not "scoffing" it's a choice (just like the choice to be in a June Cleaver existance) and to paint those of us who don't in a negative tone is and was totally unnecessary when describing one's own desires and wants.

This has been stated over and over again when this whole "50's" kinda Femme gets brought up, those of us who don't choose it get painted in a bad light.


True story.

nor will I........& I'm not "painting" so.....I still maintain it's all ok. I am sorry you have had such experiences however...I believe that sucks !

[Darbonaire]

For me, describing everyday kindness and manners under the guise of old fashioned/old school is just antiquated thinking. In my world, none of these things are gender specific, age specific, or heteronormative specific. The days are long gone that I need to adopt herteronormative ideals in order for me validate my relationship or my gender. It is no longer necessary for me.

I know the many reasons why I am attracted to Her and She is attracted to me. The list gets longer everyday and it strengthens the endless nature to attraction and love. It is this endless exchange that grows this Femme led relationship.

Chivalry, manners, and attraction are not dead...they just doesn't always look or act like an old 50's sitcom, nor does it only belong to any gender or culture.

I am not sure why kink was brought up.

Again, your opinion & I respect that. I'm not aware I truly placed manners & common courtesy ONLY in the "good old days" at all. I simply have found that people today aren't as aware or concerned with them....that's been my experience. From the snotty nosed child who bolts past you & runs into you not saying excuse me....to the woman OR man who cuts right in front of you to grab a box of faux mac & cheese & seems completely oblivious to the space that you inhabit.....THAT is what I'm talking about......I was raised to say please & thank you, excuse me, pardon me etc...I was born in the 50's & my friends from then were also taught likewise....I KNOW there are parents & teachers who teach it today also....it just seems to ME it is less prevelant.....that's all.

[The_Lady_Snow]

nor will I........& I'm not "painting" so.....I still maintain it's all ok. I am sorry you have had such experiences however...I believe that sucks !



It was never implied that *you* scoffed, what WAS implied is those of us who don't choose to live this way "BALK" at those who do.

That is an unfair judgement/assumption.

We're all different on who and what we are attracted to, not all Femme's are going to be into a June-Ward dynamic nor are all FTM's going to be as well.


As I have said before and others have as well

It's great that we get to talk about our desires and wants and what turns us on, what is NOT cool is when one (general) makes an untrue assumption on those that don't happen to roll in that way.

[weatherboi]

Ok, well I am not speaking of the experiences I have out in the world with a bunch of general you's. I am speaking from a dating and love perspective and I thought you were also. I thought we all were. I don't have an expectation of how strangers are gonna act when I am out running into them. I am sure there are kids in the 50's that acted like asshats...we all do, the good old day were not absent from this. Personally public rudeness for me is more apparent because there are more people in the world trying to get shit done. I was not born in the 50's and I was raised this way. Our kids weren't born in the 50's and they were raised this way. I just always chalked it up to a population problem and not it being less prevelent because I run into way more polite people than I do rude people.

Again, your opinion & I respect that. I'm not aware I truly placed manners & common courtesy ONLY in the "good old days" at all. I simply have found that people today aren't as aware or concerned with them....that's been my experience. From the snotty nosed child who bolts past you & runs into you not saying excuse me....to the woman OR man who cuts right in front of you to grab a box of faux mac & cheese & seems completely oblivious to the space that you inhabit.....THAT is what I'm talking about......I was raised to say please & thank you, excuse me, pardon me etc...I was born in the 50's & my friends from then were also taught likewise....I KNOW there are parents & teachers who teach it today also....it just seems to ME it is less prevelant.....that's all.

[JAGG]

Oh, the good old 1950's! How about this article which is typical of women's magazines of the time?

Sounds super doesn't it?

Signed,

Anya
(The anti-June Cleaver)


Housekeeping Monthly - May 13, 1955:

*Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.

*Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary men.

*Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.

*Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables.

*Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.

*Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.

*Be happy to see him.

*Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.

*Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

*Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner or other places of entertainment without you.
Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax.

*Your goal: To try and make sure your home is a place of peace, order, and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit.

*Don’t greet him with complaints and problems.

*Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom.

*Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.

*Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

^Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.



*A good wife always knows her place.

When

I read this it instantly ticked me off. But actually it is such
a farse that it's hilarious. Thanks for sharing Anya. It is too funny to even criticize. I can not even take it seriously enough to even care it is too freakin funny.

[JAGG]

Oh, the good old 1950's! How about this article which is typical of women's magazines of the time?

Sounds super doesn't it?

Signed,

Anya
(The anti-June Cleaver)


Housekeeping Monthly - May 13, 1955:

*Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.

*Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary men.

*Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.

*Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables.

*Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.

*Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.

*Be happy to see him.

*Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.

*Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

*Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner or other places of entertainment without you.
Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax.

*Your goal: To try and make sure your home is a place of peace, order, and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit.

*Don’t greet him with complaints and problems.

*Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom.

*Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.

*Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

^Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.

*A good wife always knows her place.



What no back rub ???

[JustJo]

When

I read this it instantly ticked me off. But actually it is such
a farse that it's hilarious. Thanks for sharing Anya. It is too funny to even criticize. I can not even take it seriously enough to even care it is too freakin funny.

Unfortunately it isn't a farce.

My favorite cookbook is a Betty Crocker, published in the 1940s. A cookbook...and it actually contains a page of this type of "advice." This is the messaging about the expectations for women...and not that long ago.

[thedivahrrrself]

Ummmm, who is June Cleaver?

[princessbelle]

Many of us have seen the era of "Barney Fife making ice cream on Andy's porch" life romanticized until it hits a sore spot.

Unfortunately the fact of the matter of the 1950s is...

Unless you were a white male of means you were not important.

Women, POC, minorities, children (who were suppose to be seen and not heard) were not important, relevant or worthy of a real life. (real to the degree, they in their own right had their own needs and desires)

And remember this especially....gay people? Let alone FTMs? Forget it. Wasn't happening.

Personally, *i* will take the risk of a modern world of internet and busy lives versus a life of oppression, bigotry and male white supremacy.

Any day of the week.

[femmsational]

Just curious.......what would be the approved of method for those people who do fit best into what's being describe as the "june cleaver".....role, for lack of a better word.

I ask because this comes up over and over and the arguments are always the same and they always go round and round.

I understand that there is a very clear line when speaking about what works for you as an individual. Do so in your "me" voice and don't step on the backs of others to explain why your way works. That should be obvious enough to any grown person who has interacted with other grown people on a regular basis. I understand that when that, very clear line, is stepped over, it's gonna be brought up, as it should.

Where I get hung up about this, especially on this topic is why then, when we are reminded that our way doesn't work for everyone and we need to be more aware of words, thoughts and actions, do we then go into a history lesson of all the ills perpertrated on others during that era?


And please hear this....I am NOT dismissing the ignorant/non-tolerant/dumbass ways in which most rich white men acted back then.

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

I fit this category. It's the me that fires my soul. And I am not old fashioned, weak or antiquated in my thinking. So there must be some way to be okay with both trains of thought. Or at least I would hope, as adults we could figure out a way to be tolerant of everyone that is not me.


Just really wishing for tolerance across the board. Probably another of my many pollyana moments but, such is life.


Take Care,
julie


P.S. What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to acrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

[Chancie]

What bothers me is not the desire to dance a waltz with predetermined steps and roles, if that's the dance you most enjoy.

It's the very weird assumption from a bunch of queers that it reflects the good old days.

Who were they good for, anyway?

I know that there are queers who aspire to the financial freedom to a very particular lifestyle choice but

The good old days?

Yes, some young men were more polite to older women than we might see on public transportation but

You would be safe to assume that a young white man sat with his legs spread way out while older Black women stood.

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

ETA PS My post is not a response to Julie's post.

[BullDog]

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

[femmsational]

What bothers me is not the desire to dance a waltz with predetermined steps and roles, if that's the dance you most enjoy.

It's the very weird assumption from a bunch of queers that it reflects the good old days.

Who were they good for, anyway?

I know that there are queers who aspire to the financial freedom to a very particular lifestyle choice but

The good old days?

Yes, some young men were more polite to older women than we might see on public transportation but

You would be safe to assume that a young white man sat with his legs spread way out while older Black women stood.

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

ETA PS My post is not a response to Julie's post.


LOL!! It would have been ok if it was in response to my post. :-)

Basically, I'm asking the same thing you are. How can we talk about this 'june cleaver' way of living, without going back in history.

I know I call it the good old days, but that's cause I don't know any other concise way to describe what works for me. And normally only with people who are heterosexual. There has GOT to be a way that won't twist everybodys nose outta whack. You know??


julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.

[femmsational]

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

Some may be, some I know for sure aren't.

How do I talk about what works for us (my other half and I) without upsetting the apple cart.

Serious question. Not trying to cause a snark fest.


And one more thing, there is nothing wrong with wishing there was a little more common decency in this world.


julie

[BullDog]

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

[femmsational]

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.


That's exactly what I said in my first post.

I say it for both sides of this coin.

And not just this issue. You, general you, should be able to express an opinion without shitting all over someone elses choices/needs/wants/must haves. It SHOULD be a very simple thing. Or at least I think it should be.


j

[princessbelle]

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

[femmsational]

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.


Oh my god! Really, you think that's what I'm talking about?


I'm not going to get sucked into a discussions of the idiot thoughts, ideas and action that happened "back then" And am not questioning whether they happened.


Would a better example be....people from a small town?? No, cause then I'm dismissing or um...insinuating that city people are rude, crude and socially undesierable.


This is my point. Common decency, when talking about behavior, is not a political thing to me. It's, holy crap, don't let your kids run all over the store yanking all the darn clothes of the racks onto the floor. It's, oh my god, don't run me over trying to get the last stone cold creamer. And maybe....em....let me out into the road if there is a red light and you're waiting for it anyways. The small things.

Not the big stupid political and social ills of the past. The little stuff. That's my common decency.

How can I talk about the things that work for me in my life and my relationship without having someone remind me of the evils of society, WHICH I AM NOT DISMISSING, especially in the era people seem hell bent on smearing on my idea of normal for me.


j

[The_Lady_Snow]

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

I say it for both sides of this coin.

And not just this issue. You, general you, should be able to express an opinion without shitting all over someone elses choices/needs/wants/must haves. It SHOULD be a very simple thing. Or at least I think it should be.


j



It is pretty simple, at least you would think it was. Unfortunately people don't stick to their me place and diss those that aren't like them.

True story read back

[Martina]

Keep in mind that I usually engage in power exchange relationships, as a submissive, on a 24/7 basis.

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

We have had a couple on this very site -- banned now, I believe -- claim that this arrangement was the healthiest way to live and raise children. They really meant that. They wrote it. On a feminist site.

If you want to recreate the gender power dynamics in a way that you imagine were current in the 1950's, by all means do it. Have a great time. But do not say you are in any way modeling a more mannerly or civilized way of life. You may be a mannerly and civilized person. But you are not realizing a social construct that ANYONE except similar fetishists should adopt.

The fact is that 50's household, by definition, gives power to the male ID'd person, not the person of whatever gender who is inherently more powerful. That's what you are enacting. It happens to be a fit for you as a couple. It HAPPENS to be. It is not a good model for most people. Pretending it is morally righteous in anyway recapitulates patriarchal ideology.

[GraffitiBoi]

So... ummm... back to what attracts you to FTMs... LOL

[JAGG]

Ya know know they had some pretty cool cars in the 1950's. And didn't cheeseburgers look so much better back then? French fries did too come to think of it. Just sayin

[BullDog]

You know what Julie the white washing of history bothers me greatly and I will speak up about it.

People can have whatever types of relationships they want, but when they start talking about certain people having superior manners and how people treated each other so much better back then I do have something to say.

Intolerance of views works both ways.

[femmsational]

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.


I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.


j

[femmsational]

It is pretty simple, at least you would think it was. Unfortunately people don't stick to their me place and diss those that aren't like them.

True story read back

I get that, for real I do.

That's why I said that when the, very clear line is crossed it should and must be addressed. I mean that truely.

I just would like to know words to use that will not offend others when talking about what works for us. You know me and the three year old beast :vigil:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I get that, for real I do.

That's why I said that when the, very clear line is crossed it should and must be addressed. I mean that truely.

I just would like to know words to use that will not offend others when talking about what works for us. You know me and the three year old beast :vigil:



I'm going to guess if you're talking about what attracts you to Brutus then you're going to speak from your desires, it's not going to be a cookie cutter descriptor of what rocks your boat. I don't assume you guys (you and the Brutal One) are cookie cutter considering how original Aj is.

[RNguy]

Yanno, every few years this argument pops up. It's a case of what floats someone's boat, not making social commentaries.

The 50s era was not exactly beneficial to the progress of women's rights. It kinda sucked at it in a big way. But if someone wants to dress in an apron and take care of their man/guy/butch/wife/etc in ways that simulate that time, then what beeswax is it to anyone else HOW they do it as long as it's not abusive? Really? C'mon now.

That's like you (general you) saying "I like to beat my honey's ass black and blue before church every Sunday" and getting shit on for saying it. It's their thing and their kink, if you will. Let's see someone tell someone else how to do their kink and see what kind of fiasco we have. No one is pushing it on anyone else. Those in favor of this lifestyle are expressing their love for it.

Someone please explain the problem with that to me. They aren't demanding women's rights be taken back to that time; they are saying 'this is how I am and what I like'. Period.

Oh gemme ,
Out of this entire thread your post right here is my favorite post . Perfectly said !!!!!!!

[femmsational]

Keep in mind that I usually engage in power exchange relationships, as a submissive, on a 24/7 basis.

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

We have had a couple on this very site -- banned now, I believe -- claim that this arrangement was the healthiest way to live and raise children. They really meant that. They wrote it. On a feminist site.

If you want to recreate the gender power dynamics in a way that you imagine were current in the 1950's, by all means do it. Have a great time. But do not say you are in any way modeling a more mannerly or civilized way of life. You may be a mannerly and civilized person. But you are not realizing a social construct that ANYONE except similar fetishists should adopt.

The fact is that 50's household, by definition, gives power to the male ID'd person, not the person of whatever gender who is inherently more powerful. That's what you are enacting. It happens to be a fit for you as a couple. It HAPPENS to be. It is not a good model for most people. Pretending it is morally righteous in anyway recapitulates patriarchal ideology.


As for the red, holy crap! Nobody has a right to tell anyone what is or is not the right way to do anything. That's just plain crazy to me.


Not everybody fits into that vision Martina. I'm not trying to be a role model and I sure am not trying to sell my version of yummy to anyone else. I don't even think I really buy into what works for me as being a "50's" way of being.

But for us, it does work that I stay at home (head injury and all) and Brute works. I cook, he takes out the trash....when he's home dammit!!! He deals with certain "male" things and I deal with certain "female" things. But's that's not how we live or define ourselfs. It's just works out that what he does best is what society has labeled the "man" thing and what I do best, society has labeled the "woman" thing.

And I think that's the root of this issue. Because society sees certain traits and behaviors as gendered, the fact that what seems to work for me to be me, is labeled as societies idea of man or woman. I can't help that. Just because society decides that such and such is such and such, and I don't like societies version of such and such, that doesn't mean I still don't fell more comfortable with MY version of such and such. I'm sure that made absolutly no sense to anyone but me. LOL!


About manners....I don't place any sort of....I don't know what to call it...judgement maybe? on where my ideas of polite and mannerly come from. All I know is that people act rude in public and that's fucked up. The only thing I can relate it to is the law. Your rights end where my nose begins. So if your child is running around the store throwing things on the floor, they are walking on my nose.

This is so hard to articulate. I wish I had better words.


j

[femmsational]

You know what Julie the white washing of history bothers me greatly and I will speak up about it.

People can have whatever types of relationships they want, but when they start talking about certain people having superior manners and how people treated each other so much better back then I do have something to say.

Intolerance of views works both ways.

Ok.


must have 10 characters dammit

[femmsational]

I'm going to guess if you're talking about what attracts you to Brutus then you're going to speak from your desires, it's not going to be a cookie cutter descriptor of what rocks your boat. I don't assume you guys (you and the Brutal One) are cookie cutter considering how original Aj is.


I think you are being too nice is choosing the word "original" LOL!!! I have some other that might apply.

[princessbelle]

I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.


j

I sure can't and wouldn't tell anyone how to post.

I just feel that bringing up the 50s as the wonderful, poetic, patriotic, perfect moral, best manners way of life, is so far from the truth it is hard not to discuss it and call it out for what it was.

I mean it's cool if that how someone wants to live, but it is important to really see it for what it was. Just pointing out that fantasy vs. reality is important to discuss sometimes maybe is my point.

That's how i see it anyway.

[Duchess]

What I'm attracted to first is the energy of the person and if they happen to be FT M so be it. What I think is supremely sexy is the abundance of male energy with an underlying dichotomy of sorts.(f)


Duchess

[QueenofSmirks]

...
Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.
j

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, but in terms of "language" - and please don't slay me for this, I will think about it more later and probably come up with better terminology - I think what you're trying to say is you and your partner enjoy stereotypical binary gender roles, including chivalry, etc etc.

Am I on the right track?

[femmsational]

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, but in terms of "language" - and please don't slay me for this, I will think about it more later and probably come up with better terminology - I think what you're trying to say is you and your partner enjoy stereotypical binary gender roles, including chivalry, etc etc.

Am I on the right track?


LOL!! I think you're on the same track I'm on, not sure it's the "right track"


I don't think that I would say Brute and i *enjoy* cause that's kinda like a preference. I would say that the core of who we are, UNFORTUNATLY, fit into societies version of stereotypical binary gender roles. (phew. mouth full that was)


And I think that's where this issue starts to go sideways. First people are lazy in language and thought. Second, there really is no correct language to use in this instance because it all revolves back to societal ideas. I just have to call bullshit on that.

All of us, especially me, need to be more careful when talking about what makes us tick as an individual. Words matter and sometimes if we would take two more seconds to think, we might pick a word that doesn't push other peoples buttons.

But on the flip side, if what works for me is something that society labels one thing, please don't dismiss that what works for me, may work for me outside of societies ideas or sterotypes. Just because what works for me is something that screams out OPPRESION, does not mean that it's not me. Or that I am glamorizing or wishisg for that oppresion. And when people say that being a certain way is wrong or does not acknowlege the hardships of the past, that is just as off base as someone glamourizing the 50's or pick an era.


There has got to be a way to not have this same argument over and over.


I'm not trying to be right or prove a point or any such nonsense. I'm trying to figure out how to talk about my relationship, without offending others. Cause whatever I may say, could and usually does illicet this type of response. It's hurtful and sad. It would be nice to feel free to just speak about my truth without being so worried I'm gonna say the wrong thing because of societies limitations.



j

[BullDog]

At this lesbian feminist household where history matters, I took out the garbage yesterday (doesn't need it today) and Belle is cooking meatloaf, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner. We were both taught good manners by our parents and we don't need to glorify the 1950s or any past eras to treat each other and other people with respect. We are living in 2012 and happy to do so.

[princessbelle]

At this lesbian feminist household where history matters, I took out the garbage yesterday (doesn't need it today) and Belle is cooking meatloaf, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner. We were both taught good manners by our parents and we don't need to glorify the 1950s or any past eras to treat each other and other people with respect. We are living in 2012 and happy to do so.

Very true. I draw the difference with us and with a lot of peeps here that our chosen ideas of what makes us happy and fullfilled is just that...it's chosen. It fits. It feels right and it works.

As opposed to being dictated by others or society or what Ward Cleaver expects. If it is a choice, that in-itself is a clear, very huge distinction from the 1950s.

Not saying some of the women didn't like that type of life or even like it now, just that there is a choice in 2012. But, in some ways it is even more realitive and true now than donning an apron and putting on make up before you come in the door. Because it is real. It is what i "choose" to do, not because it is what i "should" do.

Femmsational, you are so right about trying to convey an opinion without stepping on toes. I am honestly trying to do that as well as you, and others here. Hard to write into words sometimes.

Good discussion.

[femmsational]

Very true. I draw the difference with us and with a lot of peeps here that our chosen ideas of what makes us happy and fullfilled is just that...it's chosen. It fits. It feels right and it works.

As opposed to being dictated by others or society or what Ward Cleaver expects. If it is a choice, that in-itself is a clear, very huge distinction from the 1950s.

Not saying some of the women didn't like that type of life or even like it now, just that there is a choice in 2012. But, in some ways it is even more realitive and true now than donning an apron and putting on make up before you come in the door. Because it is real. It is what i "choose" to do, not because it is what i "should" do.

Femmsational, you are so right about trying to convey an opinion without stepping on toes. I am honestly trying to do that as well as you, and others here. Hard to write into words sometimes.

Good discussion.




LOL!! It is hard isn't it. At least we're trying. :tea: language can be so limiting. Drives me crazy.

And good luck to the person that tells me what I "should" do. That would not go over well. But just as what works for you and Bulldog works for you guys, what works for Brute and I is different. And that is ok. At least I think that's ok.

There should be room, especially and IRONICALLY, in a thread in the Trans Zone, for everyone to be welcomed and respected.


j

[princessbelle]

LOL!! It is hard isn't it. At least we're trying. :tea: language can be so limiting. Drives me crazy.

And good luck to the person that tells me what I "should" do. That would not go over well. But just as what works for you and Bulldog works for you guys, what works for Brute and I is different. And that is ok. At least I think that's ok.

There should be room, especially and IRONICALLY, in a thread in the Trans Zone, for everyone to be welcomed and respected.


j

Yep!! And thank goodness it is 2012 and you DO have a choice. All of us do, well to a certain degree.

I felt sorta out of place posting in here since it is the Trans Zone but others were so i thought it was ok. It is great to post these types of discussion in any of our threads because we have all been, for the most part, oppressed at one time or other. No matter how we ID.

AND, thank goodness in THIS day and age...we can have these discussions and grow and move forward.

[Leigh]

I can only speak for myself... but the change in my energy when I began transition was because I finally felt comfortable... I felt like I was finally me... I found my confidence.

Sadly, I let go of my confidence and my identity due to something we are not allowed to talk about in the forums... But regardless of the reason, I have found myself again and have my confidence and energy back.

When you begin to truly live as who you were always meant to be, that confidence and awareness of yourself really truly comes out & so does your confidence :)

I'm very attracted to FTM's :)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Wish you lived closer...<smile>....[/QUOTE]

I know I never seem to live close to anyone :p

[The_Lady_Snow]

LOL!! It is hard isn't it. At least we're trying. :tea: language can be so limiting. Drives me crazy.

And good luck to the person that tells me what I "should" do. That would not go over well. But just as what works for you and Bulldog works for you guys, what works for Brute and I is different. And that is ok. At least I think that's ok.

There should be room, especially and IRONICALLY, in a thread in the Trans Zone, for everyone to be welcomed and respected.


j


PS.- also there will be Guys/FTMs/Masculine folk who are attracted to transfolk. Sorry the PS is above the OP but I'm on the road and realized like a dork I left out those in other various forms of relationships:)


Agreed, and though this is the Trans Zone there are guys here on BFP who attract Femmes/Women/Females who don't fall into binary roles.

I have a hard on for queer folk who are like this.

[Darbonaire]

I didn't say anything about the 50's being "better" than now...for any reason..I said, people seemed to have more manners then...hell..let's say in the 60's 70's & 80's too......point is...people are MUCH more rude & self-absorbed in today's society in general.....but of course...not on this website...<grin>.....

[Kent]

Bumping back to the question of what attracts you to FtMs???

[QueenofSmirks]

If I think about the FtMs I've been /am attracted to, the commonality between them is the way they are comfortable being exactly who they are, their masculinity, and their swagger. Additionally, I've always appreciated their experience of being aware of gender and gender identity. Most heterosexual males I know do not think about this concept ever, or if they have it's from a very juvenile place. Note: I am stating these things from MY experiences with people *I* have known. This doesn't apply to all, just as I'm not attracted to all FtMs, nor do I believe all FtMs are any of the things I said above, not all heterosexual males ignore gender and gender identity. (I think I've covered all the bases...)

[JAGG]

Oh gemme ,
Out of this entire thread your post right here is my favorite post . Perfectly said !!!!!!!

WHAT???? You didn't pick one of my posts??? I'm crushed!!!! lol

[Gemme]

I am not sure why kink was brought up.

I brought that descriptor into the convo because some folks see it as that. Some folks see it as a fetish (see below). Some folks just 'see' it. No adjectives or descriptors needed.


I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.


Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

Wow. Just wow.

I haven't said any of this (as opposed to those it is referencing) and I'm offended. Communication is a two way street. The weight of the message does not rest solely on the speaker. Not only must the speaker find a way to get their message across clearly but the listener must make the effort to make sure the message received is the message intended.

I feel that that is not happening.

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

I like how you feel such a connection with history and the impact our predecessors made towards giving us rights and the ability to choose what style we want and/or need to live our lives in. And I think that it's important to be reminded of that, but I do not feel that that should go hand in hand with what is being discussed.

I guarantee when I am engaging with my partner...whether sex specific or not...I do not think of every person who has come before me and their struggles in this world. Perhaps I am narrowminded or selfish or just not observant outside my own sphere but when I am with someone and I am doing something with that person that says "THIS is US", I'm thinking...strangely enough...of US.

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

Okay. I can give you that. I see that. The literal versus figurative analogy. A lot of wires can get crossed when different sides are coming from difference perspectives and I totally get this.

BUT

My panties get into an absolute snarl when it feels like someone is saying 'you are wrong' instead of 'that isn't for me and this is why'. The 'daydreaming' comment feels dismissive to me, like someone's ideal isn't "real enough" for someone else who is not involved in their life at all and not affected by their life choices at all.

Why can't that role be someone's REAL world? Why must the weight of history rest on the shoulders of some girl or guy who just wants to make their partner fucking dinner and do it in an apron and maybe in heels and probably with some rouge on?

I sure can't and wouldn't tell anyone how to post.

No, but folks....see above...are saying what someone cannot post. Same difference in my mind.

I just feel that bringing up the 50s as the wonderful, poetic, patriotic, perfect moral, best manners way of life, is so far from the truth it is hard not to discuss it and call it out for what it was.

I mean it's cool if that how someone wants to live, but it is important to really see it for what it was. Just pointing out that fantasy vs. reality is important to discuss sometimes maybe is my point.

That's how i see it anyway.



Why? Why is it so damn important for someone to take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them and force a history lesson they may or may not know already down their throat?

Just to be clear, I would love to be able to stay at home. Kids or no kids. Whatever. But the reality is that I have to work, whether I'm in a relationship or not. I don't consider that a "June Cleaver" (Can we please call it something else because I think that name is inflammatory enough on its own?) lifestyle because most of my partners have cooked better than I do and I'm not doing the serving you in heels thing unless it's my choice and then it's going to be ON later that night. So, I take things from this 'pattern' shall I call it and use it as I see fit in my relationships but it does not define me and does not call for a morality lesson every time I engage in it.

I really think I've missed something here. I think it was Snowy that mentioned the Nostalgia thread and I think that a lot of hurt and frustration from when this was brought up in that thread didn't get ironed out. I missed out on what transpired there and maybe that's where some of the 'the 50's were the best damn time in the world' stuff came up. I actually didn't see any of that in here. Again, I've obviously missed something because a group said they did see it in here. Or maybe someone said something that was CLOSE to what was said before and everyone got riled up again, expecting the same thing from last time to happen. Guessing here as I wasn't there.

I really, really tried to let this go (obviously not enough as I am still typing), but it just feels too damn icky to me to do so. I'll be happy to discuss it further with anyone that would like to pm me though, as I do see that some folks are working hard to get the thread back on track.

/derail

I'm in the 'energy' group. I like a lot of masculinity, in whatever form it may present itself, to balance out my femininity. It's like salt on my watermelon, really.

[RNguy]

WHAT???? You didn't pick one of my posts??? I'm crushed!!!! lol

Dang my brother it is a toss up between the food looks better in the 50's
And gemmes post
Food , hmmmm
Ok I'm torn
;)
ROFL
You made me laugh
My wife is a donna reed but something else other locations
I dig it

[Martina]

Why is it so damn important for someone to take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them. . . .?


That's giving people a lot of power. How could someone here take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them?

And if you don't claim to be living the 50's household life, then my comments aren't relevant to you.

Oh and re saying something is wrong vs saying it isn't for me. I don't think this living arrangement is wrong. But holding up as exemplary an arrangement in which the male id'd person has power and privilege by virtue of his gender -- yeah that's wrong. Was wrong, is wrong, will always be wrong.

[Gemme]

That's giving people a lot of power. How could someone here take someone's ideal living arrangement away from them?

And if you don't claim to be living the 50's household life, then my comments aren't relevant to you.

Oh and re saying something is wrong vs saying it isn't for me. I don't think this living arrangement is wrong. But holding up as exemplary an arrangement in which the male id'd person has power and privilege by virtue of his gender -- yeah that's wrong. Was wrong, is wrong, will always be wrong.

One of the great things about living in this country and in this time is that I get to decide what's relevant to me and what isn't, but I appreciate what you say about giving away power. People do that every day. Sometimes people take power from others. Eleanor Roosevelt was a brilliant woman and said that no one could take it away from you if you didn't allow it, but there are an awful lot of ways to take power from someone and dismissing one's way of life is one of them.

I hear you regarding the power inequality and what it used to be, but is it that if both partners are equally investing in this lifestyle and if they bear equal weight from it?

[Gemme]

Shit. DammitalltoHell.

Sorry about the derail again.

Martina, if you'd like to continue to debate with me, I'm okay with that through pms.

If not, then maybe the thread can get back on topic.

[princessbelle]

[B][SIZE="3"][COLOR="yellowgreen"]Okay. I can give you that. I see that. The literal versus figurative analogy. A lot of wires can get crossed when different sides are coming from difference perspectives and I totally get this.

BUT

My panties get into an absolute snarl when it feels like someone is saying 'you are wrong' instead of 'that isn't for me and this is why'. The 'daydreaming' comment feels dismissive to me, like someone's ideal isn't "real enough" for someone else who is not involved in their life at all and not affected by their life choices at all.

Why can't that role be someone's REAL world? Why must the weight of history rest on the shoulders of some girl or guy who just wants to make their partner fucking dinner and do it in an apron and maybe in heels and probably with some rouge on?

The daydreaming remark wasn't meant to be dismissive. It was meant to be what it is...daydreaming. If we are going to debate whether or not most of us could go back to the 1950s and live as we live today or actually, how it has been represented, actually live a better, more mannerly, more pleasant life or however anyone wants to spin it, i truly do challenge that.

It's the romanticizing and the thought that things were better for everyone back then, attitude that gets MY panties into an absolute snarl.

I don't think anyone here cares how anyone lives their lives or has a relationship. That is not what this discussion is about, as far as i see. What ruffles some of us is the notion that "then" was better. It wasn't. At least it wasn't for women, minorities and especially not better for gays.

This has nothing to do with whether someone chooses to work or not, or wear an apron or whatever. FAR from it. It is about logistics, where we are now and where we came from and where MANY of us never want to go back to.

[princessbelle]

Shit. DammitalltoHell.

Sorry about the derail again.

Martina, if you'd like to continue to debate with me, I'm okay with that through pms.

If not, then maybe the thread can get back on topic.

Gemme dang!!!!

You can't call a bunch of us out on stuff then say "take it to PMs".

Maybe this needs it's own discussion thread? I don't know.

I guess it is what it is. People see things differently, but i will stand by my belief that the 50s sucked for most of us.

And leave it at that.

Sorry for the derail as well.

[Gemme]

Gemme dang!!!!

You can't call a bunch of us out on stuff then say "take it to PMs".

Maybe this needs it's own discussion thread? I don't know.

I guess it is what it is. People see things differently, but i will stand by my belief that the 50s sucked for most of us.

And leave it at that.

Sorry for the derail as well.



PMing you now!

[BullDog]

Gemme, no one has told you how to have a relationship.

No one.

It is very dangerous to white wash history. We are about to have a Presidential election where our rights could take us back to the 1950s and earlier. I am never going to ignore any of that. I didn't take issue with anyone's relationship. What I have issue with is white washing history.

And if people want to make male the superior in their relationship they can, but if people are going to tie that to some wonderful mystical past when things were so much better I will challenge that. And I will continue to challenge male being superior as the default in society.

[Gemme]

Gemme, no one has told you how to have a relationship.

No one.

It is very dangerous to white wash history. We are about to have a Presidential election where our rights could take us back to the 1950s and earlier. I am never going to ignore any of that. I didn't take issue with anyone's relationship. What I have issue with is white washing history.

And if people want to make male the superior in their relationship they can, but if people are going to tie that to some wonderful mystical past when things were so much better I will challenge that. And I will continue to challenge male being superior as the default in society.

PMing you as well.

[BullDog]

Gemme you can PM me anytime but you can't just come in here and say a bunch of stuff and then tell us to take it to private.

[Gemme]

Gemme you can PM me anytime but you can't just come in here and say a bunch of stuff and then tell us to take it to private.

I just want to minimize my role in derailing the thread any further, Bully. I honestly don't think I can say things any differently. It seems to be a case of headbutting and that's frustrating for everyone.

[Medusa]

Here's what needs to happen, folks:

1. This thread appears to have meandered into a completely different area than "What attracts you to FtMs...". While threads will do that, I think that the discussion being had here is valuable enough to warrant it's own thread so that folks can continue teasing this apart without derailing the folks who would like to engage in more light-hearted banter.

2. This discussion feels very similar to me as the one did when the whole "Gor-Daddy" thing came up. Much like that conversation, I want to remind folks that you do not get to police other people's kink. You don't get to label what someone else finds sexy as "wrong". It may indeed *be* wrong but this is where we have to accept that desire is a really convoluted thing and that its intersections are often going to bump up against things that are made of -isms.

3. I think it is super valuable to dismantle desire for ourselves. If you want to tease apart why something doesn't work for you, then do that with language that is thoughtful and sincere. Refrain from jabs that make you look like an asshole because the conversation cannot happen if people keep trying to "win" rather than listen.

4. The very nature of the Butch/Femme dynamic is seen as sexist, racist, and homophobic by many folks. Think back to discussions in your Feminism circles where you may have heard those shitty diatribes about how Butches "just want to be men" or how Femmes "are really straight women looking to get their pussy licked". Does it feel at all familiar to folks that we are now turning inward on other dynamics that feel "wrong" to us but that other people have found shelter in?
I'm not saying that there aren't dynamics out there that are really fucked up. There are. There are dynamics out there that deserve a ton of discussion. My point is that I would like to see that discussion happen thoughtfully without all the other bullshit. (you know, that bullshit where we waggle our fingers at someone else's way of doing their desire).

5. As far as individual desire goes, I'm a huge fan of the motto "If you aren't fucking me, paying my bills, or living in my house, you don't get to have an opinion on what I do."

6. With the above being said, if you are up on a Feminist website spouting some bullshit about Gor-Daddies and how awesome it is when Femmes turn into Stepford Pussies or Butches are only Butch when they are climbing the "Machismo Dick Tower", expect to have that shit dragged out into the daylight and picked at.

The point of all this is y'all need to treat each other better.
Make your point as if the person you are talking to is across the table from you at the Reunion.

And in the immortal words of Ozzy, "I love you all but you're all fucking mad."

Thanks,
Angie

[DMW]

I just love these two. I hope that the honeymooners are not considered x-rated or something.. Also, people can choose whether or not they wanna watch the show. Just a link. Heck Alice is awesome. Crazy Ralph says..."Baby, you're the greatest" and also, to the moon Alice...when he doesn't understand her.
The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 1/3 - YouTube

The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 2/3 - YouTube

The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 3/3 - YouTube

This is when Alice goes and gets a job and Ralph can't deal with her not at home. He has no idea how much work it is for her to do all that she does.
It is great. I think the women that have known me...eh...would probably say...i can be a little too much like Ralph sometimes.
Probably sometimes too much. Hell, maybe i am giving myself too much credit. Would have to ask the women that have lived with me really to get a real idea. Would be nice to hear them critique this post ....from a distance...and in bits.
Damn he is like a child...i don't think i was that bad????

[Nomad]

Yanno, every few years this argument pops up. It's a case of what floats someone's boat, not making social commentaries.

The 50s era was not exactly beneficial to the progress of women's rights. It kinda sucked at it in a big way. But if someone wants to dress in an apron and take care of their man/guy/butch/wife/etc in ways that simulate that time, then what beeswax is it to anyone else HOW they do it as long as it's not abusive? Really? C'mon now.

That's like you (general you) saying "I like to beat my honey's ass black and blue before church every Sunday" and getting shit on for saying it. It's their thing and their kink, if you will. Let's see someone tell someone else how to do their kink and see what kind of fiasco we have. No one is pushing it on anyone else. Those in favor of this lifestyle are expressing their love for it.

Someone please explain the problem with that to me. They aren't demanding women's rights be taken back to that time; they are saying 'this is how I am and what I like'. Period.



thank you.

my politics and my personal life preferences/kinks do not necessarily reflect one another. i'm what happens when you mix the DNA of an intellectual, a housewife and a porn star to create a whole new person. anyone who doesn't like my love of submission and sexual engagement via housework, cooking, baking, grocery shopping, budgeting, errand running, managing a home and spreading my legs for my One Person can suck my dick. (she said in a very genteel fashion)

**EDIT**

my apologies for not reading the moderation that Medusa posted or recognizing that i was further derailing the thread. that said, my post stands undeleted because i'm selfish that way.

[girl_dee]

just a quick thought.

i choose to live a lifestyle that may be considered similar to the household set up of the 50's. The difference is i am not a barefoot and pregnant, suppressed, brainwashed woman who is under the thumb and complete control of a man. It saddens me to think anyone would want this type of woman. i'm someone who embraces taking care of the home including the chores and dinner, allowed to have my own life and my own work. My feelings and thoughts, wants, needs, woes are all important. i work two days a week outside the home. My work here is appreciated and i am well taken care of. Our home is a source of pride for me, as it was for many women of the 50's. Having a nice dinner for everyone at the end of the day brings me joy. i've never been happier in my life and i hope we live this way forever. i can't call it a kink/fetish. It's just how we live. i love being a housewife, apron and all!

[girl_dee]

I just love these two. I hope that the honeymooners are not considered x-rated or something.. Also, people can choose whether or not they wanna watch the show. Just a link. Heck Alice is awesome. Crazy Ralph says..."Baby, you're the greatest" and also, to the moon Alice...when he doesn't understand her.
The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 1/3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frbp2O6I2go)

The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 2/3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI8Elpu18uU)

The Honeymooners "A womans work is never done" - Part 3/3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRG62QFGcKM)

This is when Alice goes and gets a job and Ralph can't deal with her not at home. He has no idea how much work it is for her to do all that she does.
It is great. I think the women that have known me...eh...would probably say...i can be a little too much like Ralph sometimes.
Probably sometimes too much. Hell, maybe i am giving myself too much credit. Would have to ask the women that have lived with me really to get a real idea. Would be nice to hear them critique this post ....from a distance...and in bits.


You do realize that the *to the moon* was a physical threat to punch her lights out, not when he didn't understand her but when he didn't agree with her. ? That it was perfectly acceptable for a man to do that to a woman back then?



Just wondering.

[DMW]

You do realize that the *to the moon* was a physical threat to punch her lights out, not when he didn't understand her but when he didn't agree with her. ? That it was perfectly acceptable for a man to do that to a woman back then?



Just wondering.
Times have changed. Just my opinion ....I actually think that life now demands an awful lot(i think more demand than that of the past) from women...especially mothers with jobs and a home to take care of. (Maybe i feel this way because i have not experienced any other time or way of life.) I believe that there should be a balance of work within a home from a family.
Never ok to hit a woman in my opinion. I didn't realize that it was ever ok or perfectly acceptable to hit a woman back then. I don't think i ever will realize that. I disagree with it so much that it would not matter what context or time period.

And as far as the Honeymooners goes...if it has to be deleted or taken out from this forum..if the show offends anyone...then i would understand. I wouldn't take it personally. I just like the show.

[Nomad]

i'm attracted to FtMs in part because i love people who live from a place of extreme authenticity. as a cis-gendered person i've not ever had to demand space for myself. i can only imagine (and i expect i aprobably couldnt come close to imagining even half) what it might be take to demand that kind of room in the world or what it would feel like to have the stones to do it. that kind of honesty bunches my knickers.

i feel the compelled to write the following disclaimer so i dont get bent over for not acknowledging that non-transgendered folks also do exactly what i've just described. please accept this paragraph as my acknowledgement of that fact now. lots of people do that who are not transgendered have to create space for themselves in this narrow world. many (if not most) of the people on this website do that very thing every day. in my post i am merely responding to the topic (what attracts you to FtMs) in a personal and honest way. in addition, this is only PART of what attracts me to FtMs. the rest of what attracts me to them (or to anyone, for that matter) is often a mystery to me. it just is what it is. [/I]

[Kent]

Bumping to get us back on this trail..

[Darbonaire]

Here's what needs to happen, folks:

1. This thread appears to have meandered into a completely different area than "What attracts you to FtMs...". While threads will do that, I think that the discussion being had here is valuable enough to warrant it's own thread so that folks can continue teasing this apart without derailing the folks who would like to engage in more light-hearted banter.

2. This discussion feels very similar to me as the one did when the whole "Gor-Daddy" thing came up. Much like that conversation, I want to remind folks that you do not get to police other people's kink. You don't get to label what someone else finds sexy as "wrong". It may indeed *be* wrong but this is where we have to accept that desire is a really convoluted thing and that its intersections are often going to bump up against things that are made of -isms.

3. I think it is super valuable to dismantle desire for ourselves. If you want to tease apart why something doesn't work for you, then do that with language that is thoughtful and sincere. Refrain from jabs that make you look like an asshole because the conversation cannot happen if people keep trying to "win" rather than listen.

4. The very nature of the Butch/Femme dynamic is seen as sexist, racist, and homophobic by many folks. Think back to discussions in your Feminism circles where you may have heard those shitty diatribes about how Butches "just want to be men" or how Femmes "are really straight women looking to get their pussy licked". Does it feel at all familiar to folks that we are now turning inward on other dynamics that feel "wrong" to us but that other people have found shelter in?
I'm not saying that there aren't dynamics out there that are really fucked up. There are. There are dynamics out there that deserve a ton of discussion. My point is that I would like to see that discussion happen thoughtfully without all the other bullshit. (you know, that bullshit where we waggle our fingers at someone else's way of doing their desire).

5. As far as individual desire goes, I'm a huge fan of the motto "If you aren't fucking me, paying my bills, or living in my house, you don't get to have an opinion on what I do."

6. With the above being said, if you are up on a Feminist website spouting some bullshit about Gor-Daddies and how awesome it is when Femmes turn into Stepford Pussies or Butches are only Butch when they are climbing the "Machismo Dick Tower", expect to have that shit dragged out into the daylight and picked at.

The point of all this is y'all need to treat each other better.
Make your point as if the person you are talking to is across the table from you at the Reunion.

And in the immortal words of Ozzy, "I love you all but you're all fucking mad."

Thanks,
Angie

Thank you !

[Darbonaire]

I'd like to hear again.....why is it you femmes love/ are attracted to us ?????.......

<smile>....

Jonathan

[femmsational]

What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to accrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

disclaimer...please note I am posting in a thread about FTM's in the Trans Zone. I do realize that the above could apply to pretty much.....everybody.

[Martina]

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Leigh]

For me it'll always be their energy and just how they are themselves no matter what anyone else says or thinks :)

[BullDog]

I agree with you 100% Martina.

I also never made any judgements whatsoever on anyone's personal relationships or desires. I haven't seen anyone doing that at all.

What do I like about FTMS- I like and admire FTMS that are comfortable in their skin and those that are feminists and understand and fight for women as equals.

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Medusa]

Let me make something perfectly clear:

(and Martina, this is not specifically for you but rather a general note because I don't want there to be any doubt about the note I left earlier in this thread)

I am *not* saying that we shouldn't pick apart desire. I think it's healthy to do that and I think it helps us evolve as a community toward something a little less binary and patriarchal to something more "us".

What I am saying is that there is a way to dismantle desire humanely and with sensitivity to the fact that desire and kink often intersect with -isms.

I get very irritated when adults try to tell other adults that finding something sexy or hot within the confines of their private relationships is wrong.
Why? Because I don't think we have the right to do that. And honestly? I don't want another adult who I am not having sex with telling me that my kink is bad or wrong or blah blah blah.

Because who are you at that point? Who are you to think that you know better for me what I want than I do?

Now, and this where I go back to all I said earlier, we all need to be dismantling our desires on a personal level AND on a community level.

I was on the phone with Snowy earlier and we were talking about kink and how the intersections of kink often have overtones of sexism, ageim ,racism, classism, and lots of other.

I am personally uncomfortable with the idea that age play almost exclusively focuses on having a giggling "younger" baby girl or a good "little" boy. Where are the folks asking for a hot older Femme or a "Grandpa"-type Butch? Does that mean that I view all age play as ageist? No.
I think people's desires are dictated internally and that is, quite frankly, none of my damn business. Or yours.
Where it becomes the business of all of us is if a dynamic is continuously being upheld as the "standard for awesome", especially if it is deeply rooted in the very -isms that we don't want replayed over and over on this site.

I do think, however, that when we discuss things like the above it is reasonable to say to one another "Have you ever considered why age play focuses on younger individuals?" without doing that whole "Well, if you were doing it right, you'd be doing x, y, or z."

I felt earlier when reading this thread that we were going down that road of "anyone who participates in this is X, Y, Z-label because OBVIOUSLY they haven't thought about the ramifications for Feminism, sexism, etc."
I don't want that.
I don't want us to be so quick to judge rather than discuss.

I think that some of you brought up some very good points about rewriting history so that sexist notions of what a "wife" looks like are white-washed so that the dirty business of disempowerment doesn't bump up against anyone's kink.
Thing is, I think it's possible that people are willing to take that role out and play with it in their personal lives in a way that makes them feel empowered. That's a win for Feminism, imo.


P.S. I don't do drive-by' in rep messages so if you want to converse with me then you need to use this thread, a private message, Facebook, my phone #, my email, etc.

[Bèsame*]

Not really quite sure what it is, but I'm liking the attraction so far...I'm still learning:)

[Medusa]

Ok, Snowy just made me have a lightbulb moment.

So, I called Snowy and said, "What am I missing here? How is this not about desire?"

The answer is that it IS about desire until it's not.

I read back a little further in this thread and see something here that happens a lot on the Planet (and it online spaces in general).

When we start out talking about desire (and this thread in it's baby-state IS about desire "What attracts you..."), we often fall into this pattern of talking about markers.

Markers like what makes a Femme or a Butch or a Transperson attractive to us.

"...holding doors", "...pulling out chairs", "...driving the flirtation"

Those markers, and the conversation around them, often ends up being a grunt-fest of who can out-Femme, out-Butch, or out-Trans the next person. Because let's face it, there are a lot of single folks up in these threads talking about their desires. It plays out like a dating thread sometimes.

When we do that, I think some of us start holding up those (unexamined) markers as what I like to call "the apex of dick mountain". It's very Patriarchal.

It's the kind of stuff that implies that Femmes don't hold doors open for their partners or that "true" or "real" or "old school" Butches do x, y, z.
That stuff needs to be examined. Thoughtfully and dynamically.

I think it's ok to say and want "the person I'm interested in to hold a door open for me". Where we get into that unexamined area is when we lock up on "Transmen hold doors open".
Because people are not absolutes.
Neither are genders.
And certainly not desires.

The lightbulb moment for me is that all of this might be rooted in desire but that when it bumps up against the cadre of -ims, it is no longer about desire but about that ingrained crap we've been fed as women and men.
That may not change what we want from the people we desire but we damn well better understand why.

I have more but am still processing.

Thanks for letting me blather.

[femmsational]

I get that Medusa and feel the same way.

But....I always have a but.....How do those of us who happen to fall into this category, who ARE aware of the isms that are plopped onto our way of being...talk about what floats our boat, without offending.

Cause I really did try to speak from my me voice about how and why this type of kink(gah hate using that word for this) works in my life with my guy. Yet people still seemed to think I was White-washing.

I'm stuck. I know in my head I'm not white-washing but if my words are giving that impression, I don't know what to do?


I really do like to interact with people who fit into "my type" but I agree, sometimes the language and thoughts that are used get really sloppy and offensive. Should we have a discussion about proper language in this instance??


just mulling and trying to find a way to be me, without offending you....general you...

julie

[Parker]

Hey Julie ~

When I read threads like this, I feel like it is the difference between saying something like "I like when FTMs (or w/e) do this, that, or the other" vs. "I like or am attracted to an FTM who does this, that, or the other."

To me, when I am reading it, the first one implies that all FTMs (again, or w/e) do this, that, or the other, while the second one states one's specific desires.


eta: I wanted to come back and make it clear that I was thinking about your questions about language yesterday / this morning and was just using your post(s) as a jumping off point. :)

[Medusa]

I get that Medusa and feel the same way.

But....I always have a but.....How do those of us who happen to fall into this category, who ARE aware of the isms that are plopped onto our way of being...talk about what floats our boat, without offending.

Cause I really did try to speak from my me voice about how and why this type of kink(gah hate using that word for this) works in my life with my guy. Yet people still seemed to think I was White-washing.

I'm stuck. I know in my head I'm not white-washing but if my words are giving that impression, I don't know what to do?


I really do like to interact with people who fit into "my type" but I agree, sometimes the language and thoughts that are used get really sloppy and offensive. Should we have a discussion about proper language in this instance??


just mulling and trying to find a way to be me, without offending you....general you...

julie

julie!

I appreciate you!

I am trying to think about how my real-time interactions have gone down when this type of conversation comes up.

Like, I look at Snowy and Grant and can see such an affection there. Such love for one another. And, like, I could imagine them all cozy in their home and Grant doing what Grant does and Snowy doing what she does. The idealism I have about Snowy and Grant is that they have a very thoughtful relationship so if Snowy busted up in here one day and said something like, "I'm getting all June Clever today and wearing my apron and heels" it might be about role-playing, sexytime, etc. for her.
If Grant came up behind her and posted something like, "Lookit my little woman in the kitchen where she belongs!"...well, first I would probably bust out laughing at the adorableness of it all and then I would be absolutely comfortable knowing that Grant is playing with Snowy in a way that is true and comfortable for them.
Consensual.

I think a lot of this is coming down to consent for me. Like, I think you and Brutal get to consent to any kind of dynamic you want with one another and I celebrate the fact that you both have found each other in a way that feels fufilling and right.

I think I am orbiting around how it can feel nonconsensual and disempowering when people say things that feel like "Femmes belong in the kitchen" or "Im in the kitchen because its my place" or "Transmen know how to open doors".

Those are, of course, super black and white examples but I think about how Jack and I have the kind of dynamic that means I do all of the cooking and she does all of the yard stuff and vehicle maintenane. That isn't because we subcribe to the patriarchal bullcrap, but more about what we enjoy as human beings. Maybe I like to cook because I was brought up seeing women valued more if they could roll out a good bundt cake. Maybe Jack likes to do the yard because she saw thought as a child that it was feminizing to have to cook and thus, did what she thought her Daddy would have done (fix the yard and cars).
Those are the kinds of things we've had to examine because again, those markers we are given as children (or that we accept as children) come from jacked up idealism.
Doesn't mean I'm going to quit enjoying cooking because it might be seen as a patriarchal design, just means that I have awareness that I might have made different choices about what I enjoy had I been given a different playing field as a child. (and edited to add that I wanted to be clear I am not at all implying this is what I think of you or that you havent thought about anything, just talking about me!)

I so wholeheartedly agree with you about sloppy language here. I see that happening a lot with people who mean no harm but who may not have thought about where it all comes from. We're all in different places and at different levels of evolution around our stuff so I can accept that we'll have those moments as long as we're all open to learning from them.

I think when you say "It makes me feel really good to cook for my guy", there's not a damn thing wrong with that. I think if we caught our community moving toward the idea of "June Clever is who my Femme needs to be", then we need to be asking ourselves why our Femme isn't fine the way she is. I've had to do a lot of dismantling around that myself after coming out as Femme on the Dash all those years ago and thinking that all Femmes wore glitter, heels, and full makeup when vacuuming the house!! LOL.

I also think that there is a certain level of idealism around the June Clever stuff that can be independant of "the 50s were the best time ever!!". I was telling Snowy that I like to hold up the Huxtables (a family of Color where the wife, Claire, was a powerful attorney and ran her family with dignity and grace) or The Conners from Roseanne (class issues!) and say "Why do we look at the Clevers as the cornerstone of family when we have other examples?".
I think some of it comes down to privilege (or has for me anyway) and also some of it is just flat-out idealism.
I thought the Huxtables were the baddest ass family around when I grew up watching them but they were not as sanitized as the Clever show. The Huxtables dealt with issues like death, teenage pregnancy, drugs, etc. that felt very real to me. I know the Clever show was in a different time but I almost wonder if some of the Ga-Ga around it is escapist (here comes the kink again!).

[QueenofSmirks]

I get that Medusa and feel the same way.

But....I always have a but.....How do those of us who happen to fall into this category, who ARE aware of the isms that are plopped onto our way of being...talk about what floats our boat, without offending.

Cause I really did try to speak from my me voice about how and why this type of kink(gah hate using that word for this) works in my life with my guy. Yet people still seemed to think I was White-washing.

I'm stuck. I know in my head I'm not white-washing but if my words are giving that impression, I don't know what to do?


I really do like to interact with people who fit into "my type" but I agree, sometimes the language and thoughts that are used get really sloppy and offensive. Should we have a discussion about proper language in this instance??


just mulling and trying to find a way to be me, without offending you....general you...

julie

I'm not Medusa- obviously! :) - but I do have a response to this.

From what I saw, I think what got some feathers ruffled is not the lifestyle and dynamic of your relationship, but rather that that type of lifestyle/dynamic was referred to (by others? - frankly I don't remember the phrase you used) as "50's lifestyle" or "good ole days" -- eras which include a lot of really offensive stuff. As I said in an earlier post, I get what you meant, but I think what you're really saying is you live a representational segment of another time (i.e. traditional binary gender roles), not a lifestyle that represents that whole time period. It's easier just to say "the 50's",but that can be a misrepresentation of what you really meant.

I'm not condoning people jumping all over your ass for it, I do think there is a better way to have a discussion, with clearer language.

Edited to add: I don't think anyone has the right to define for anyone else the dynamic of their relationship,or make judgments on it, regardless of how "wrong" they think it is. To each their own. I also agree that blanket statements suck, and ideals and values and descriptions should never be applied across the board to any group, as others have stated, i.e. "a real man does x, a real femme does y."

[Guy]

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's