Men with boobs.

[Martina]

I And I keep seeing statements about most butches identifying as female. What is this based upon? Are there some site stats around that I don't know about? I have no idea what the breakdown is. I honestly don't believe this to be true, but could certainly be wrong.

You have been in the Bay Area too long. ;)

Even here, i run into butches who ID as butch and know what femme means, but otherwise are pretty oblivious to all the other gender politics we are so savvy to. For a while i was dating a lot. And i ran into a number of butches who were completely befuddled when i mentioned all this.

Back home, it's rare for a butch to male-identify. That's something associated with transitioning. i know people from back home who do, but most are people i met through the dash site. i really rarely ran into a butch who male-identified. Most people are pretty oblivious to all this.

i don't have any statistics tho. i think your sense of being in the minority may have more to do with the online community and the Bay Area butch-femme crowd. That's just my sense.

[AtLast]

You have been in the Bay Area too long. ;)

Even here, i run into butches who ID as butch and know what femme means, but otherwise are pretty oblivious to all the other gender politics we are so savvy to. For a while i was dating a lot. And i ran into a number of butches who were completely befuddled when i mentioned all this.

Back home, it's rare for a butch to male-identify. That's something associated with transitioning. i know people from back home who do, but most are people i met through the dash site. i really rarely ran into a butch who male-identified. Most people are pretty oblivious to all this.

i don't have any statistics tho. i think your sense of being in the minority may have more to do with the online community and the Bay Area butch-femme crowd. That's just my sense.

Well, I'll be! This just didn't occur to me. I have never been out as butch outside of the Bay Area and only for a few years really (late bloomer). OK, time to take some road trips!

[BullDog]

Even in the Bay Area, I am in an online group of butch women that has hundreds of members. Many of them are from the Bay Area. Most of them are not associated with either the Dash or this site that I am aware of.

Even at the Dash site- with the male defaults and all the anti-lesbian sentiment, there were 2 long term polls with hundreds of votes cast over many years. One was one butch identity- over 60% who voted said they were female. One poll was on lesbians (not just butch)- over 60% said they identified as lesbians. In fact most of the times that I looked at the polls over the years it was roughly 2/3 in each poll. And this in what was at times a very hostile environment for both groups (in some cases overlapping).

I don't believe male identified butches are in the majority in real life or online, but there is often the perception that they are. I don't say this to make male identified butches feel bad or anything. I'm a stone butch. I don't believe very many butches are. So in that instance I am in the clear minority. It's just that the perception and reality are very different when it comes to female/male or she/he and to me it's very jarring.

[DapperButch]

This sounds fine, but that's not the way it works. Often the DEFAULT is male pronouns. Some people's default is "she," but on the previous site anyway, that was much less common. So that's the situation. It's not sometimes -- randomly someone gets called by the wrong pronoun.

I totally appreciate what you are saying here. However, it isn't working. I was jazzed to see the pronoun spot because I thought it would really help out with this whole matter.

I inserted she, her right off when joining. There have been more than a few times that I have been addressed as he or him just as it was on the dash site. And every single time this has happened it has been by a femme. I don't get it! We have the place to clearly state what we want, yet, this keeps happening. And I keep seeing statements about most butches identifying as female. What is this based upon? Are there some site stats around that I don't know about? I have no idea what the breakdown is. I honestly don't believe this to be true, but could certainly be wrong. And there are butches that (as you state) don't list pronouns or don't care which are used. My guess is that in those cases, pronouns default to male. Again, I have no data to support this and probably should not make this assumption- could just be a personal sensitivity.

Something I have thought about is that perhaps we butches might just have more of a sensitivity about this. Again, I have no idea. I do know that it is important to me to use the pronoun(s) that another butch prefers.

Now, to be fair, I would think that the same thing has happened for male-identified butches. I have no idea. I want to believe this is so.

I appreciate you both responding to my post. I guess I must live under a rock to be surprised by this happening to AtLast? I truly am surprised that with this system in place, and knowing the sensitivities of many male and female idetified butches to pronouns, that people wouldn't take a simple minute to glance at the avatar. People make mistakes and newbies may not think things through, or people post quickly without thinking based on their internal default (that is created by the "world" that they grew up in, I think), but since we have a place for pronouns here?Come on..take a minute to look! I mean, again, I can see mistakes, but.....

Anyway, I really think that if more butches used the spot maybe people would begin to naturally look before posting.

Does anyone else see this as a potential solution to our pronoun default problem...or that it could at least decrease the problem? We can talk about being upset about the default, but here is something people can start doing to try to change the default to there no longer being a default

Last thing is that yes, it does make sense to me, AtLast, that butches might be more conscious of using the preferred pronouns of other butches because for many of us, pronouns are important. Butches have felt the sting of being called "she" or "he". So, it makes sense.

[Jaques]

Being TG i like to be addressed as "he", but if someone makes a mistake, it really doesnt bother me...........i know what i am, so its not really important to me at all

[Bit]

I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity

For me, its the opposite... and especially so in the B-F community and on B-F sites. And I don't want either to be invalidated. Yes, this is true for some butches, not all. And the thread is dealing with female/woman aspects based on the short man with boobs statement.

We all just don't fit neatly into a box or have the same life's experiences. Which is rather kewl. And when I say all, I mean every butch identification that a member might have on this site.

I'm not meaning to be snide, but, it seems that every time butch gets discussed, it ends up male in some form even when the OP posed a conversation about the female/woman aspects of butch!

Hummmm, the point, right?



My ONLY point, AtLast, was to answer a very clear question that was posted in the thread; "why call a Butch one thing here on the site and another at home?" I believed (and still believe) that the statement after that question, that the answer would be germane to this endless discussion, is true.

When I posted my answer, I had no clue that June meant there were people who, as betenoire said, use male pronouns just to fit in online. I mean, come ON, this is an issue which has been exposed and endlessly debated in the online butch/femme community since 2002 or before! That's EIGHT YEARS of attention brought to the fact that the male pronoun default in use at that time on that website was wrong.... and yet we're saying here that people are still today---on a completely different website which was deliberately set up to include and validate butches-as-women---using male pronouns that absolutely in no way at all fit them, trying to "go along to get along"? WTH?

It mystifies me.

[BullDog]

I appreciate you both responding to my post. I guess I must live under a rock to be surprised by this happening to AtLast? I truly am surprised that with this system in place, and knowing the sensitivities of many male and female idetified butches to pronouns, that people wouldn't take a simple minute to glance at the avatar. People make mistakes and newbies may not think things through, or people post quickly without thinking based on their internal default (that is created by the "world" that they grew up in, I think), but since we have a place for pronouns here?Come on..take a minute to look! I mean, again, I can see mistakes, but.....

Anyway, I really think that if more butches used the spot maybe people would begin to naturally look before posting.

Does anyone else see this as a potential solution to our pronoun default problem...or that it could at least decrease the problem? We can talk about being upset about the default, but here is something people can start doing to try to change the default to there no longer being a default

Last thing is that yes, it does make sense to me, AtLast, that butches might be more conscious of using the preferred pronouns of other butches because for many of us, pronouns are important. Butches have felt the sting of being called "she" or "he". So, it makes sense.

Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.

[Gemme]

I am going to give an example, but not use the persons name, it's someone I really value and I hope she will forgive me for sharing this story, if she even remembers it!

Several years ago, she and I met in person and I asked which pronouns she preferred, she said she/her. Then one day, after that, I referred to her as "She" in a thread and she messaged me and said (not an exact quote) "Way to call me she". I was kind of stunned by that, but changed the way I referred to...him.

Now, what is that about? What makes it okay to use female pronouns in person and male online? What is it *we* do that makes it not okay to be a "she". How does it negate or lessen someones Butch Cred? It doesn't for me, but I'm not Butch. (But I am "Butch Enough") :rofl:

Wow. No wonder there's confusion. If some of those who are female identified are giving mixed signals to the rest of us who are trying to get it right, doesn't that just perpetuate what this is about?

How can students learn if the teacher isn't teaching the truth?

It undermines everything.

I was honestly not aware of folks doing this and can't imagine the internal struggle that must be going on inside those that do, or have done, this.


The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.

There's no need to memorize anything. Membership is growing by leaps and bounds, so that is nearing an impossibility.

I love the pronoun bar for this very reason. If I address someone wrong and see that I did so from their pronoun choice, I can edit or retract that wrong identification.

You are right in that she is not a name tag. But name tags serve a purpose in helping others see you as you want to be seen. That's why we all wear them at reunions and bashes. They are a tool.

[Dylan]

I'd like to weigh in on this whole he/she pronoun thing, because I see it a lot, and it's incredibly frustrating to me also

I was at a party a while back. There was about a 50/50 mix of male ID'd butches and female ID'd butches. One female ID'd butch in particular kept referring to the male ID'd butches as she. My personal opinion is that it kept happening because this particular FIB hadn't been around that many MIBs. We kept mentioning to this FIB about the pronoun thing. Eventually, it got resolved. But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

After the party, I was talking to one of the attendants, and she (a femme) was going on and on about how upset she was that the FIB wasn't using the proper pronoun for the male ID'd butches. And here's how she went about voicing that upset: "Why does he keep referring to X as she? I don't get it. WHY does he keep referring to all y'all as 'she'? I mean, come on. Why does he keep doing that..especially after we've said something?"

When I brought up numerous times that 'he' was a 'she', this person would just shrug it off with, "Oh yeah, he/she...whatever"

Now, I don't get that. You don't get to pick and choose people's pronouns. And One can hardly defend ThisGroup's pronoun while completely dismissing and 'whatevering' ThatGroup's pronoun. And excuses like, "That's just how I roll" or "I call all butches, he" just don't work. It's disrespectful to all butches. And honestly, I (personally) don't get the hang up here. I mean, if I 'he' a (female-ID'd) femme, she's probably going to get a little pissy and wonder why in the world I'm calling her he...like don't I have eyes? Can't I clearly see she's a she?

Maybe it's just me, but if someone tells me they're male ID'd, I see them as male, and it's not too hard to 'remember' a pronoun...not any harder than remember my step-father's pronoun. If someone tells me they're female ID'd, I see them as female, and it's not too hard to remember a damned pronoun. I will admit, I get messed up on the zie pronouns, and I'm working on that.

Separate story: I used to have a friend who would use whichever pronoun was convenient for ThatPerson's conversation. If ThatPerson was talking to say, people from work where she didn't want to be outed, she would use a male pronoun for whomever she was dating/friends/whatnot. If ThatPerson was talking in a queer circle, and ThatPerson wanted folks to know she was queer, she would switch up to a 'she' pronoun as a means to out her. There was no respect whatsoever for the actual person ThatPerson was talking about...it was all about her own comfort level, and all about what the pronoun choice did for her (whether protecting her from being outed, or outing her if in queer space). Personally, I think this is more disturbing to me, because A) it's obviously disrespectful to the butch being talked about, but B) it's also USING the disrespect for personal gain. I also find it homophobic.

I don't really know why I feel the need to share those stories, but they seem relevant to the conversation right now, and it really bugs the shit out of me. Pronouns are NOT for OTHER people to decide based on their own comfort level. You can't vehemently defend OnePerson's pronoun and demand respect for it, while completely 'whatevering' AnotherPerson's pronoun...especially when you're demanding AnotherPerson respect OnePerson.

But to then take someone's pronoun and pick and choose, so you don't get 'outed' or so you do get 'outed' is just (to me) the hilt of disrespect and laziness.

And I will bet money, if I he'd a great majority of the femmes in the world, there'd be a world of hurt coming my way. And if I were then corrected, and said something like, "Oh yeah, whatever, I refer to all femmes as he", I'd get double the hurt.

So, seriously, WTF? Because, I just don't get it. I don't get how it's any harder to remember SoAndSo's pronoun as it is to remember your mother's or father's pronoun. If you really, truly see me as male, then it's not difficult. And if you really, truly see SoAndSo as female, then it shouldn't be an issue.

Now if you're just switching them up because it's convenient for your own conversations...you're just self-centered.


Dylan

[weatherboi]

I think this post/question is very thoughtful in terms of how socially entwined our views on gender and equating male to be strong and female to being weak. I understand this as a submissive guy. Certain people equate submissive bottom as weak or less than guy. This is not true.

My entire life experience has been just this. I was born submissive. It shows up all over the way i have lived my life professionally and emotionally. I spent some years of my life denying this because of trust issues, not this issue,but have discussed it intensely in therapy. I mean i am well aware and experienced that there are butches/guys/femmes out there that see me as a freak and think i should maybe man it up. I do not prescribe to this kind of thinking.

I love it when my Ms's masculine energy takes over. It is a dynamic not an identifier. She is no less Femme to me. From my knees perspective I quietly see a difference in how this energy is recognized from this community to my offline community experiences.






I am going to give an example, but not use the persons name, it's someone I really value and I hope she will forgive me for sharing this story, if she even remembers it!

Several years ago, she and I met in person and I asked which pronouns she preferred, she said she/her. Then one day, after that, I referred to her as "She" in a thread and she messaged me and said (not an exact quote) "Way to call me she". I was kind of stunned by that, but changed the way I referred to...him.

Now, what is that about? What makes it okay to use female pronouns in person and male online? What is it *we* do that makes it not okay to be a "she". How does it negate or lessen someones Butch Cred? It doesn't for me, but I'm not Butch. (But I am "Butch Enough") :rofl:

[JustJo]

Responding to Dylan, but not copying the whole thing....

I appreciate that you shared these stories, because this stuff does happen. As I posted earlier, I do check that pronoun spot on the profile bar because I do want to use the correct pronoun. I wouldn't want to be called he...tyvm...and I don't want to do that to anyone else either.

When I first joined the dash site I made friends with a butch who had hy as their designated pronoun on the profile. Okay, great. I called hym hy. When I met hys girlfriend, who also refers to hym as hy online, she called hym she. Now I'm confused. I asked the butch....what do you prefer?
Hy said "oh either way is fine." Ugh. Okay, now I'm really messed up. If I call hym she online, others will eat my head for disrespecting. If I'm talking about hym to her, do I say she? Please know that I'm truly NOT trying to be flippant here (and it's okay, cuz they're friends and we had this conversation already), but it is crazy-making for those of us who do care, do respect that, and do want to call you what you prefer to be called.

And yes, some people do ignore stated preferences...and I find that very disrespectful.

And...Dylan...as a side note, you had me totally stumped with the MIB's and FIB's for a minute....cuz I was seeing MIB and thinking "Men In Black?" :blink: Sorry.....my son's favorite movie....duh....

[BullDog]

There's no need to memorize anything. Membership is growing by leaps and bounds, so that is nearing an impossibility.

I love the pronoun bar for this very reason. If I address someone wrong and see that I did so from their pronoun choice, I can edit or retract that wrong identification.

You are right in that she is not a name tag. But name tags serve a purpose in helping others see you as you want to be seen. That's why we all wear them at reunions and bashes. They are a tool.

Gemme, I wasn't saying the pronoun choice wasn't useful. It is. I think the real problem is some people have a limited notion of what butch is and what woman is and that's what the real problem is. It's not really a matter of keeping track of who's who.

Thanks for your post Dylan. There does seem to be a stubborn refusal by a segment of femmes that I find baffling. It certainly is not all femmes. There are plenty of femmes who partner with or date trans men and male id butches who are very supportive and use the right pronouns or ask when they don't know.

[Jett]

I am going to give an example, but not use the persons name, it's someone I really value and I hope she will forgive me for sharing this story, if she even remembers it!

Several years ago, she and I met in person and I asked which pronouns she preferred, she said she/her. Then one day, after that, I referred to her as "She" in a thread and she messaged me and said (not an exact quote) "Way to call me she". I was kind of stunned by that, but changed the way I referred to...him.

Now, what is that about? What makes it okay to use female pronouns in person and male online? What is it *we* do that makes it not okay to be a "she".
Wow. No wonder there's confusion. If some of those who are female identified are giving mixed signals to the rest of us who are trying to get it right, doesn't that just perpetuate what this is about?

How can students learn if the teacher isn't teaching the truth?

It undermines everything..........

I find this interesting... and relevant to the problems themselves. Just that after consistent participation in this thread that, all the things people have put out that they've seen occur as to the defaults, hierarchy, sexism, misogyny and what the problems seem to stem from, a story gets told about one female ID'd butch who ID'd as he online and that's what you choose to single out and really wow about and criticize.

And it should be obvious but, maybe you should think about Junes story in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense.

And that perhaps remember it's not even a common occurrence, and that it's also been spoken about other IDs, ID'ing inconsistently between work, home, online... even spoken about in this thread... perhaps you missed that.

Just some thoughts...

Metro

[DapperButch]

[QUOTE=BullDog;105933]Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.[/

----------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Red"]I am aware of this. I don't believe I was in any way implying that <confused look>.


Additionally, maybe you misunderstood but I was actually empathizing with AtLast and actually feeling anger for her when I was writing that post. I don't think that it is acceptable to call anyone by the wrong pronoun consciously.

[BullDog]

[QUOTE=BullDog;105933]Dapper in the case of AtLast, at least a few of the people who have called AtLast him on this site were people who have been around for quite some time, and at least one said they were friends and had chatted back and forth. So it's quite mystifying to me that anyone who has been around for any length of time would make that mistake. Not only does AtLast have Her/She in her profile but she talks about being a butch woman in her posts quite often.

I am not trying to call anyone out. It's the fact that it still happens on a fairly regular basis that's glaring, despite all of the efforts made by both the website and the people who do have pronoun preferences.

The pronoun choice in the profile is great, but it's not really a matter of people needing to memorize a whole bunch of pronouns. Like I said earlier butch woman is not just about pronoun choice. She is not a name tag.[/

----------------------------------------------------------

[COLOR="Red"]I am aware of this. I don't believe I was in any way implying that <confused look>.


Additionally, maybe you misunderstood but I was actually empathizing with AtLast and actually feeling anger for her when I was writing that post. I don't think that it is acceptable to call anyone by the wrong pronoun consciously.

Yes, Dapper I was aware you were empathizing. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What I was saying is that it wasn't just a matter of people not glancing at the pronoun choice before posting. Even some people who are familiar with AtLast- as opposed to responding to someone in a post and not being sure of their pronoun choice or gender- have used the wrong one with her.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. It was more of a jumping off place. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Jett]

That fact that anyones defaulting instead of asking is simply lazy (like Dylan said) and with that laziness shows a great deal of indifference to those who get the short end of the default stick...

Because to default, you have to make a choice of he or she... and in that consciously choose who to disrespect.

When people who've been in the community for some time say that they do still use default pronouns... truly it says nothing to me about the he's or she's, or their value... but it speaks to me about the person who defaults, and their internal values.

[DapperButch]

Yes, Dapper I was aware you were empathizing. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What I was saying is that it wasn't just a matter of people not glancing at the pronoun choice before posting. Even some people who are familiar with AtLast- as opposed to responding to someone in a post and not being sure of their pronoun choice or gender- have used the wrong one with her.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. It was more of a jumping off place. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Gotcha. Thanks.

[AtLast]

Have to agree with Dylan and others about the laziness factor. I also feel deeply when our TG/IG members (including the women/femmes that love them) are disrespected/marginalized/pooh-pahed via the pronoun use. As bully points out, this all goes deeper than pronouns and name-tags. So many of us struggle with aspects of our identity here and really do need a space in which we can just talk about it!

Something I keep thinking about while engaging in the thread is how can we get away from all of the assumptions when we (all of us across the butch gender spectrum) simply state our female or male identifications?

dapper has a good take on this in terms of some of us not filling in the pronoun area because no matter what, someone takes whatever is there as some kind of bashing (goes both ways with male or female identities).

I get upset when I see generalizations about male identified/TG/IG members as well as we female/woman butch types! I see many stereotypic statements about them being sexist and hell, there are many female id'd butches that make very sexist comments! Has nothing to do with gender identity at all. Frankly, most TG guys I know are feminists!

So much of this stuff has never made sense to me. Martina pointed out something important to me, however. My history and geographic locale has skewed and blinded me, I think. I walk in this world with trans people all around me and have for many, many years. I have to say that my experiences pre-B-F exposure were very different in this context. It wasn't until actively living as a butch and entering this community that I have seen so much cruelty, sterotypic assumptions and out and out hostility about gender differences. Sometimes, I honestly do think about going back to just a lesbian identity even if I finally found a place of acceptance for my female masculinity and deep attraction to femmes as well as being able to talk with other butches and knowing they get me!

This has become so very confusing, frustrating and just plain painful to me. I know damn well that putting Bully’s quote on my sig line will cause BS. But, I am truly touched by what this says and just can’t remain hidden behind the insane butch margins any longer. My TG/IG friends know exactly how I feel and they are who matter really in terms of any back lash. The morons, as Beau points out, just don't matter as they will never engage in thyis conversation or ones like it in any meaniongful manner. they will continue to make stupid and childish boob and cock jokes.

[Gemme]

Gemme, I wasn't saying the pronoun choice wasn't useful. It is. I think the real problem is some people have a limited notion of what butch is and what woman is and that's what the real problem is. It's not really a matter of keeping track of who's who.



Ahhh, I misread you then. Thanks. :)

I find this interesting... and relevant to the problems themselves. Just that after consistent participation in this thread that, all the things people have put out that they've seen occur as to the defaults, hierarchy, sexism, misogyny and what the problems seem to stem from, a story gets told about one female ID'd butch who ID'd as he online and that's what you choose to single out and really wow about and criticize.

And it should be obvious but, maybe you should think about Junes story in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" sense.

And that perhaps remember it's not even a common occurrence, and that it's also been spoken about other IDs, ID'ing inconsistently between work, home, online... even spoken about in this thread... perhaps you missed that.

Just some thoughts...

Metro

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways.

[Martina]

But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?



This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

[apretty]

a zillion times yes!



Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

[Jett]

Actually, Metro, I mentioned the chicken and the egg a while back, but in reference to Martina's post, I think, and not June's.

A commentary is different than criticism, I think. I was struck by that example more than some of the others. That doesn't mean other examples are not accurate or serious issues; just that the amount of turmoil that situation must cause that individual and those that love that person hit me in a way I felt I could connect with.

I also wasn't aware that what posts do and do not elicit a response in us were to be chosen by someone other than ourselves. Perhaps it's frustration in you or me reading it wrong or a combination of both, but your post to me feels a little bit sideways. [/QUOTE]

Hey Gemme, actually I never noticed you use the chicken and egg thingy previously.

The chicken and egg reference (in my post) was to say perhaps that what caused a female ID'd butch to feel pressured to ID as "he" in the forum seemed more pertinent (to me) in the conversation than the idea that her doing that was somehow partially the source of "confusion" for people (about pronouns what-ever) because of some "mixed messages".

I'd assume since no one would really be aware a peep was doing that (except in this case June who knew her privately and seems to still be able to use correct pronouns etc. after the event) that such an occurrence wouldn't really have an affect on whether people can ask or know what pronouns to use etc.... in that I really don't see how it's "undermining everything" as you said either.

Also... I'm not seeing where I tried to choose "what posts do and do not elicit a response" in you (point it out if you like)... rather I simply said that that I found it interesting and relevant. Perhaps there is some misreading going on, both sides... but I don't do that, not that type of person.

And absolutely correct "criticism" is different than commentary...

Anyway, thanks for responding but I'm out on this one.

Metro

[The_Lady_Snow]

This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...:veggie:

[Dylan]

I'd like to piggy back off this and add, that HEAVEN forbid a butch (or transguy) like penetration, I have *personally* have watched femmes *shudder* and wrinkle their nose and say things such as

"eeww"

"what a waste of a butch"

"that ain't right"

because *only* femmes are penetrated because lord forbid a butch or transguy enjoy that kind of orgasm, it automatically puts them in *a bottom role* or a *less than butch* role.... *I* have even had femmes tell me I need to leave someone alone and let them just be what they should be true butches or *Daddy's* .

oy vey...:veggie:

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan

[Soon]

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

[apretty]

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'


Just Had To Add,
Dylan

don't get me started on how stone doesn't even exist.

[AtLast]

I'd like to weigh in on this whole he/she pronoun thing, because I see it a lot, and it's incredibly frustrating to me also

I was at a party a while back. There was about a 50/50 mix of male ID'd butches and female ID'd butches. One female ID'd butch in particular kept referring to the male ID'd butches as she. My personal opinion is that it kept happening because this particular FIB hadn't been around that many MIBs. We kept mentioning to this FIB about the pronoun thing. Eventually, it got resolved. But here's the thing. Most of the femmes at this party referred to ALL butches as he. So, how are we supposed to have a conversation about 'respecting' male pronouns, when half of the party isn't bothering to respect female pronouns?

After the party, I was talking to one of the attendants, and she (a femme) was going on and on about how upset she was that the FIB wasn't using the proper pronoun for the male ID'd butches. And here's how she went about voicing that upset: "Why does he keep referring to X as she? I don't get it. WHY does he keep referring to all y'all as 'she'? I mean, come on. Why does he keep doing that..especially after we've said something?"

When I brought up numerous times that 'he' was a 'she', this person would just shrug it off with, "Oh yeah, he/she...whatever"

Now, I don't get that. You don't get to pick and choose people's pronouns. And One can hardly defend ThisGroup's pronoun while completely dismissing and 'whatevering' ThatGroup's pronoun. And excuses like, "That's just how I roll" or "I call all butches, he" just don't work. It's disrespectful to all butches. And honestly, I (personally) don't get the hang up here. I mean, if I 'he' a (female-ID'd) femme, she's probably going to get a little pissy and wonder why in the world I'm calling her he...like don't I have eyes? Can't I clearly see she's a she?

Maybe it's just me, but if someone tells me they're male ID'd, I see them as male, and it's not too hard to 'remember' a pronoun...not any harder than remember my step-father's pronoun. If someone tells me they're female ID'd, I see them as female, and it's not too hard to remember a damned pronoun. I will admit, I get messed up on the zie pronouns, and I'm working on that.


This gets to the core. The issue is misogyny. It's disrespectful to call a MIB "she," but no big deal to default the other way because that involves an elevation of status whereas calling a he a she is potentially demeaning or humiliating.

Re someone like Atlast who has her pronoun posted and comments in threads about her preferences, the people, often femmes, who persist in using male pronouns are not just lazy. Their behavior is coercive -- and on some level intentional. It makes them feel more comfortable in some way to use male pronouns for butches. They want the butches to present the way they want the butches to present. It's not just hugely disrespectful to the butch. It's an attempt to create a community that conforms to and recreates a conventional gender hierarchy (queered thought it is). The behavior is inexcusable, not just because it is extremely rude, but because it consciously chooses to valorize male ID in principal, in the abstract, as an ideal. i still recall that mistype of one poster who said "female-id vs butch-id." That's what defaulting to male pronouns ANNOUNCES -- that butch means male.

Both of you bring so many points out here that are important and I personally thank you both. yeppers butch can mean male, female, TG, IG, et. all!

The other thing that just makes me feel good is Dylan pointing out (even though you were whatevered.. major eye-roll) to this femme that she was doing the same thing! I have been in situations like this in which both has happened and someone needed to hear that it is important to use appropriate prounouns for all of us.

You might be right in that the FIB just isn't used to this. Hopefully, she will think about it more and develop awareness. And why the femme just didn't get that it is equally respectful to use female pronouns is beyond me!

Argh.... I almost (have to say this, as I know I dodged a big bullet!) dated a femme that not only insisted on calling me he, him, etc. (yes, even after I corrected her many times), but wanted to give me a more male sounding first name!!! She even called me with a list of butch names I might want to use!!! I was quite attracted to her (at first), but must say after this, my libido fizzled rapidly... as in flat-lined!!!

And I am working on zie pronouns too.... I will get there, I promise!!!

[Cyclopea]

I've been surprised to meet several butches that refer to themselves as "he" online but as "she" in real life, even among the femme-butch community locally.
As it was explained to me by one couple, "he" was used online to express her bonafides of butchness, while "she" was used in real life because she did not consider herself transgender and in real life she was a "proud dyke" and that online is just bullshit anyway.
I don't really judge what people feel they need to do.. okay wait, I guess truthfully I thought that was really weak.
It's so much easier to conform I guess, especially if that's the only way to be respected. At least that's how it was explained to me.
Long story short, my experience parallels June's and whoever else mentioned it.
I agree that holding butch women responsible for their own oppression is a ridiculous meme; however the acquiescence and conformity of women- even butch women- to their own oppression is not a new idea. It's pretty hard to stand up to a tidal wave when letting it pass by seemingly harmlessly may be effortless. Really, people are here not to battle tidal waves but to have fun.
The most disturbing thing to me is the number of people posting to this thread- the small number (and please don't take that as an insult because I have appreciated everyone who posted whether I shared their view or not).
I guess it's a time commitment to read every post in a thread and respond coherently. I would enjoy seeing more voices on this topic, whatever their view.
So many of you "oldsters" have bemoaned the "never-endingness" of the topic of the devaluation of the woman in "butch" but to me this is not a repetitive boring unresolvable conversation but one so relevant and interesting that it requires continued examination.

[AtLast]

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

So true and I have wondered the same thing. And I have to mention MtF's as well along with stone. I do know a couple of MtF's that used to post on the old site, but just began to feel too alienated. I think there are many different femme presentations and identifications that are shut out here and on other B-F sites. Although, I think as the site continues this will change as it feels very open to me. Then, again, POC members have brought concerns up that they felt have simply carried over.

Maybe because the Planet is fairly new and lots of folks from the old site do not particpate here, these areas just have not developed their voice yet. I hope new folks feel free to begin threads about these, too. Actually, I get really jazzed when I see posts by people I have never seen before. There are so many ideas out there that I have never had an opportunity to learn or hear about. And hell, I'm old!

Since I can't go to the ReUnion (:() due to economics, I plan on attending the Femme Conference here in the Bay Area that same weekend. Will be my first and I am looking forward to the topics femmes will discuss.

[Jet]

Im totally embarrassed now.

I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots"

:blink:

lol..........

[Gayla]

As to the online vs offline pronoun switcheroo thingy... I use both, offline and off, depending on the situation. I'm not trying to pull a fast one on anyone but yes, there are some people in my life that refer to me as she and others that use he, both online and off.

Thinking back on it, there's a slight possibility that I could be the person June referred to in her earlier post (although I don't think I ever would have commented on her using "she" online because it's just not that big of a deal to me).

My reality is that I do not exist solely in a queer/bf environment. I have a job. I have family of origin. I have friends that are not queer. I interact, both online and off, with a wide variety of people. (And they seem to all be on my Facebook now!) There are a number of people that I met in queer situations, or online, that know me as "he". That's who I am to them. There are also people that know me as "she" and that's who I am to them. There's even some, such as my partner, who know me as both.

Again, this isn't meant to be duplicitous in any way, it's just who I am.

I understand that proper pronoun usage is very much a respect issue for some people, and I've seen it used in very disrespectful ways in the past. I totally get that, understand it, respect it. For me though, it's really not that big a deal. Maybe it is because I've spent so much of my life in a community where things like "sir" and "boy" aren't determined by biology and are considered titles of respect aside from gender. /shrug

[Cyclopea]

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

If you have any thoughts to flesh that out I would love to hear them.
What strikes me first is the idea of transgression: of what it means to be female in the case of butch women, and of what gender means in the case of transgender male butches. Transgression and deconstruction of any sort is a very popular meme in the post modern culture which largely concerns itself with dismantling. Perhaps "Femme" is more creationist than deconstuctionist? Just a thought. :)

Or is it pure misogyny?
Look forward to more on this.

[Gayla]

No, puddin' it wasn't you, although you are dear to me as well, even though you're not coming down to game night :(

I very much remember meeting you for the first time and asking, and you said it didn't matter. And I can totally respect that. When it happened, it didn't make me think less of the person, it made me sad, and only because I felt like it was so they wouldn't be "less than".

And I don't mean to sound condescending, I really do feel sad when people are afraid to express themselves because of what other people might think.

this leads me to another point, which is a tad off topic, but someone mentioned it to me today in a rep, how Butch and Trans bottoms are also seen as "less than" Snowy touched on it, but I wish someone would start that conversation in a thread.

I really, really, really wish I could make it but right now the making money thing is really, really, really important, too. Not to mention, I just had some major dental work done so I'm a little scared of those cupcakes. <3

There's been a lot of really good stuff in this thread and I've probably started a good dozen comments but them deleted them because I got sidetracked and went off on tangents. I've learned a lot from the "men with boobs" part and now that we've evolved here, it's given me even more to think about.

I have never not been butch. With a couple of brief exceptions, my relationships have always been with women who ID'd as femme. I've been "out" for 30 plus years so it's not something I just discovered about myself when I found a website. During those years I've also been "boy" or "Sir" or "Daddy" so ID'ing in some way that is publicly seen as male is also not something I discovered from a website.

I've been "Sir" longer than I've been "hy" and it's a place where I'm really comfortable. I don't think I ever gave it much thought or put any real concrete theories behind it until I found the dash site, ummm, I think 8 or 9 years ago now. It was there, in chat, that I had "hy" thrust upon me. I'm not real fond of made up words so I wasn't sure what to think but then it just became the norm so I got used to it.

The theoretical evolution of my gender started there and, to be honest, the pronoun / MID / FID / etc. issues around butch gender are something I've only seen online. With the exception of people I've met through the dash site, I've never had a conversation with another butch about pronouns, ID or any of the other issues we so often discuss here. I also don't know any butches in r/t, again other than those I met through b-f, that use male pronouns offline.

But online, on that site, at that time, it was a must. Butch=hy, femme=she and that's how, at least in chat, we could tell each other apart. For so many people, finding butch-femme community online is the start of the exploration and education process. We've all seen it. The newbies who start off at "but we're all just girls" and learn to understand why that statement is so offensive to many of us.

We're linear people living in a linear world. We grow, chronologically, along a linear scale - 15 is "less than" 20 when talking about age - so it's easy for me to see how some people can view what they used to be as being "less than" what they are now. Especially when what they used to be was something they didn't like or weren't comfortable with. That process of evolution from "just me" to "butch" to "stone butch" to "TG butch", etc. is very linear for most people so "just me" becomes less than "TG butch" for them. I think the issues come in when people can't see that the process is an individual one and not everyone evolves at the same rate or even to the same place.

I've spent a lot of time in the last 8 year's trying to define my own identity. Really, truly, in my heart of heart's I probably fall more into the "just me" category because I do see my gender as a fluid, ever changing kind of thing. I fall more to the male ID'd side of things, and it's where I'm most comfortable on a public level, but there's so much more to me then just that.

This got way more rambly then I intended and I don't think I even really said what I thought I wanted to say when I started but.. well yeah. I don't agree with the "less than" theory of things but I can see where it may have come from in this situation.

[Nat]

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

[betenoire]

And not just penetration. Lately it seems like anything less than stone equals 'less than'

Exactly! And Fuck That. (God, I love to say Fuck That about things I don't like.)

I remember -very- clearly a conversation on the boards at the other site, where some (annoying) Femme was all up in arms about how penetration "emasculates" a Butch - that was her explanation as to why she was a "stonefemme". Fuck That. I kept saying over and over again that her statement implied that she thinks that Butches who -do- like to have their "down there's" played with are less than authentic Butches. And do you know what? SHE AGREED THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE THOUGHT and tried to defend that it was accurate.

I was so pissed. I'm still so pissed. God, had she said that she simply didn't like to do it because she thinks that the stuff between her lover's legs was icky..I would have been less pissed off than what I was. (Although, that would have pissed me off too.)

On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"? I'm not liking that particular insinuation of hierarchy. So because I like to do all sorts of things to my lover's "down there" (hee hee, I am refusing to say vagina!) I am less/low Femme. Again - Fuck That.


What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

No idea. But your observation is spot on.

don't get me started on how stone doesn't even exist.

Pretty lady, one day you can tell me alllllll about it over coffee. Mwah!

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=betenoire;106496]Exactly! And Fuck That. (God, I love to say Fuck That about things I don't like.)

I remember -very- clearly a conversation on the boards at the other site, where some (annoying) Femme was all up in arms about how penetration "emasculates" a Butch - that was her explanation as to why she was a "stonefemme". Fuck That. I kept saying over and over again that her statement implied that she thinks that Butches who -do- like to have their "down there's" played with are less than authentic Butches. And do you know what? SHE AGREED THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE THOUGHT and tried to defend that it was accurate.

I was so pissed. I'm still so pissed. God, had she said that she simply didn't like to do it because she thinks that the stuff between her lover's legs was icky..I would have been less pissed off than what I was. (Although, that would have pissed me off too.)

On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"? I'm not liking that particular insinuation of hierarchy. So because I like to do all sorts of things to my lover's "down there" (hee hee, I am refusing to say vagina!) I am less/low Femme. Again - Fuck That.

QUOTE]

Love your Fuck Thats! :wtf:

I am confused, or just haven't heard/read this: On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"?

I don't get it. Don't much care for any hierarchy, actually. But, I think I just don't understand what this is all about. How and why this insinuation is even made. Thanks.

Also, all of the less than/more of garbage about butches or femmes makes me crazy! Why are we so wrapped-up in this kind of stuff? Has it always been like this in the B-F community? For a community that shouts about diversity being such an important aspect, the narrowness in what is butch or femme and to what degree is astounding.

OMG, I'm cussing!!

[BullDog]

The theoretical evolution of my gender started there and, to be honest, the pronoun / MID / FID / etc. issues around butch gender are something I've only seen online. With the exception of people I've met through the dash site, I've never had a conversation with another butch about pronouns, ID or any of the other issues we so often discuss here. I also don't know any butches in r/t, again other than those I met through b-f, that use male pronouns offline.

But online, on that site, at that time, it was a must. Butch=hy, femme=she and that's how, at least in chat, we could tell each other apart.

This is my exact experience as well.

I think the argument that you need to have different pronouns to tell the butches from femmes apart is quite ludicrous.

Nat, people have been extremely careful to qualify when they have observed that some femmes refuse to use the right pronouns, etc that it's not all femmes doing it. I don't know how people can be any clearer about that.

[BullDog]

A few more thoughts.

I personally am not looking for femmes to be nurturing and attentive towards me. I am not looking for a mother. I already have one.

I haven't seen anyone being upset about honest mistakes in pronoun usage.

I've heard several people mention how exhausting it is to have to try and remember or get things right. At the same time I hear so much talk about gender diversity and fighting against the binary. Gender in butch femme communities isn't simple. If you are in favor of gender diversity you are going to have to deal with more variables. Not all butches are the same in their gender expression. Not all femmes are the same in their gender expression. Not all trans men and trans women are the same in their gender expressions. No one is going to simplify their gender because people find it exhausting.

I agree with HowSoonIsNow, there needs to be more femme gender discussion. I have always been greatly interested in these discussions and have always participated in them where I felt appropriate.

I said in this thread that I feel Femme is a transgressive gender as much as Butch is. I have always believed that to be the case.

[SuperFemme]

I often wonder if some of us Femme's are SO blind to misogyny and sexism that it doesn't occur to really give thought as to *why* there is an automatic default to He/Hy?

What does that say about how deeply socialized sexism is? Because a lot of Femme's come out later in life after having relationships with and marriages to bio-men. Where naturally that default is He.

Then behold the b/f community! I will get blasted for saying this a site/community built on women/women relationships. Which is sad. So let's just go with this is a community built on Queer relations? For me it has been MORE of an adjustment to remember the male pronouns and being made to feel badly for using She/Shy. I think that is odd given the circumstances.

Is it some kind of internal homophobia that Femme's default to He/Hy? I have been sitting here for days with this question rolling around in my head. Because I am confused not as to the general He/Hy default but more as to the WHY's of it.

Anyone?

[Queerasfck]

Exactly! And Fuck That. (God, I love to say Fuck That about things I don't like.)

I was so pissed. I'm still so pissed. I would have been less pissed off than what I was. (Although, that would have pissed me off too.)



Imagine that, Betenoire pissed off. Unbelievable. It's almost surreal.

[betenoire]

Imagine that, Betenoire pissed off. Unbelievable. It's almost surreal.

Wow, Ezee. While I do love a being on the receiving end of a good razzing, I saw that you were the last person to post and was expecting some smartypants insight...so I'm feeling a little bit let-down. ;)

Do you have anything to add to the conversation, Tiger?

(I loooooove your ladyfriend.)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I am one of them masculine folks Nat who don't get respect from both ends of the spectrum, from my femme counterparts I hear things as, "ew that ain't femme", "Ew you fuck your guys?", "ew that boy is such a waste" I don't feel that anyone is bending over backwards for just butches in general, as I see it if a butch or guy went into a thread and said something about a femme, we as femme's would be all up on that shit... I know we would, so as a femme *I* see where femme's are flippant when it comes to how butches want to be seen or addressed.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

I don't think any butch up in here is asking for a nurse maid, I don't see how asking to respect someone's pronoun choice is sexist, it is NOT FAIR that we impose the *he* trump card on all of our masculine looking community members, it is unfair to question their masculinity if it does not fit our mind mold, and please don't tell me it does not happen, I can name a good 15 incidents... Any one remember a member purposely calling Toughy a Miss? I do, and I was disgusted at the venom it came with, from a femme... not a butch a femme..

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

*I* personally can start a thread about how lazy and thoughtless both guys/butches and femme's are thoughtfulness when it comes to understanding my masculinity.

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

This community is always evolving, *I* care enough to keep my eyes and ears open and pay attention to how someone is addressed or how they want to be, it's not hard, it's what one does when one is part of a community such as this.. If we didn't and all became how do I put this... Blah about it because it's hard, then what happens?

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

As long as they need and want, I don't have to have a huggy relationship with say Bulldog to respect what she wants or needs from me as a member of this place, I don't need a kiss kiss on the cheek to listen to Rope's he wants and needs from me as his ally. I use them because they reciprocate this respect towards me... Now if someone was not, I am good with calling them on their bullshit...

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

As a masculine folk I would appreciate that is respected, it is part of me, funny though no one refers to me as a he automatically, what do you think?

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

These are just my thoughts on your post... Thanks for listening

[Dylan]

I'm just going to start he'ing all the femmes who say 'but it's so hard' and then I'll use the excuse 'eh, he/she, how am I supposed to keep everyone straight?'

And then if I get super called on it, I am just going to say, 'well it's just cuz you look like a man'


I'm Sure Femmes Should Just Suck That Up, Cuz It Ain't EZ Having To Remember All This Shit...Oh, And If There's A Fight About It, I'm Then Going To Tell The Femmes Who Don't Appreciate ME Choosing Their Pronoun For Them That It's Sexist To Call Me Out,
Dylan

[Jett]

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

I had a longer post, point-counter point but I deleted it.

Personally speaking... your post is frustrating. "Masculine folks" aren't suggesting or demanding that feminine folks give more respect them than they already do, (or deserve that's how I read it) and hardly in need of nurturing (ironically that feels to me somewhat demeaning and infantilizing of masculine identities). I'm quite a few decades beyond needing a mommy in my life.

I have met very few butches or trans people etc. who behave in the manner you've described toward femmes, yes, BUT for the hugely vastly majority I see us having a great deal of admiration and respect toward femmes. So... although I admittedly do feel somewhat personally dissed by your words as far as the generalization of what masculine identities think/need/want... that part about how you feel we perceive femmes role to us bothers me the most.

I'm sorry you feel this way, but we're not all assholes, well I can be an asshole but I'd sure as hell hope not in that context. I've always tried to give the same respect that I ask for, no matter the "ID".

Asking to be called by the proper pronoun doesn't seem like it should be a big deal to me, I'm always amazed by the resistance to it... not that that is what you're doing, but sometimes the responses are baffling.

This post probably isn't all the pertinent to the conversation, but oh well.

Metro

[oneye]

where some (annoying) Femme was all up in arms about how penetration "emasculates" a Butch - that was her explanation as to why she was a "stonefemme". Fuck That. I kept saying over and over again that her statement implied that she thinks that Butches who -do- like to have their "down there's" played with are less than authentic Butches. And do you know what? SHE AGREED THAT THAT WAS WHAT SHE THOUGHT and tried to defend that it was accurate.


i soooooooooo do not want to get embroiled in this ongoing battle of the wits (and the wittiest), but i will say that, on the other site, i was the recipient of this line of judgement...that i was less because i get pleasure out of the attentions of my wife to my most private of places. i don't see how that dictates the LEVEL of butch that i am or whether or not i'm a true butch. further, i felt very put off by the notion that, although i see myself as primarily masculinely identified, the things that i share with my wife in the privacy of our bedroom somehow belittle or degrade or negate my identity...specifically my 'trans butch' identity. it doesn't seem to me that anyone but my wife and i should determine this. further, in my simple mind, it seems to me that this should be how it is in ANY relationship...gay, straight, et al.

and now, i shall await the inevitable slinging of mud. heh... :formalbow:

[SuperFemme]

i soooooooooo do not want to get embroiled in this ongoing battle of the wits (and the wittiest), but i will say that, on the other site, i was the recipient of this line of judgement...that i was less because i get pleasure out of the attentions of my wife to my most private of places. i don't see how that dictates the LEVEL of butch that i am or whether or not i'm a true butch. further, i felt very put off by the notion that, although i see myself as primarily masculinely identified, the things that i share with my wife in the privacy of our bedroom somehow belittle or degrade or negate my identity...specifically my 'trans butch' identity. it doesn't seem to me that anyone but my wife and i should determine this. further, in my simple mind, it seems to me that this should be how it is in ANY relationship...gay, straight, et al.

and now, i shall await the inevitable slinging of mud. heh... :formalbow:



That's funny. I've always recv'd an inordinate amount of shit over the attentions I pay to MY Beloved's most private of places. The majority of the flack has come from other Femme's but is not exclusive to them. It never ceases to shock and upset me...that my Beloved and I are somehow *other* for the things we do to each others bodies.

[betenoire]

Oh, and I really -really- need to clarify that I don't think that anybody who is Stone is bad. Or lazy or weird or anything else. I need to clarify that before somebody takes it the wrong way and gets their feelings hurts, cuz aside from the rare case that I get a personal vendetta going (and you gotta hurt one of my friends to be on the receiving end of that) I don't like to hurt people's feelings.

I'm taking inventory in my head of the people I've dated, and it seems like I've been with as many people who were Stone as people who weren't. (There's actually only a difference of one.)

For me, I'm a pleaser. And by "pleaser" I mean I like to do whatever it is that the person that I'm with would like me to do. I have no boundaries in terms of things that I won't do, and very few in terms of things that I won't have done to me. And that includes not being squicked out if someone wants me to not touch their organic stuff. I'm comfortable either way, and perfectly happy provided that the person that I am with at that time is respected and comfortable and happy sexually. Does that make sense?

[betenoire]

That's funny. I've always recv'd an inordinate amount of shit over the attentions I pay to MY Beloved's most private of places. The majority of the flack has come from other Femme's but is not exclusive to them. It never ceases to shock and upset me...that my Beloved and I are somehow *other* for the things we do to each others bodies.

Right, so there are some very stupid people out there who not only think that our lovers are less masculine if they want us to, and that we are less feminine if we want to. Fuck that.

[SuperFemme]

Oh, and I really -really- need to clarify that I don't think that anybody who is Stone is bad. Or lazy or weird or anything else. I need to clarify that before somebody takes it the wrong way and gets their feelings hurts, cuz aside from the rare case that I get a personal vendetta going (and you gotta hurt one of my friends to be on the receiving end of that) I don't like to hurt people's feelings.

I'm taking inventory in my head of the people I've dated, and it seems like I've been with as many people who were Stone as people who weren't. (There's actually only a difference of one.)

For me, I'm a pleaser. And by "pleaser" I mean I like to do whatever it is that the person that I'm with would like me to do. I have no boundaries in terms of things that I won't do, and very few in terms of things that I won't have done to me. And that includes not being squicked out if someone wants me to not touch their organic stuff. I'm comfortable either way, and perfectly happy provided that the person that I am with at that time is respected and comfortable and happy sexually. Does that make sense?

Can we pretend that we both authored this post?

[betenoire]

Can we pretend that we both authored this post?

Yeah, cuz ilu!

[SuperFemme]

Yeah, cuz ilu!

Ilu2. I hope that is acceptable. :LGBTQFlag:

[The_Lady_Snow]

This is the part of the thread that people get uncomfy with, the mentioning of the vulva and it's many uses, and I know that someone out there is going to drive by read this and wrinkle their nose at the icky thought...:spider:

[PapaC]

This is the part of the thread that people get uncomfy with, the mentioning of the vulva and it's many uses, and I know that someone out there is going to drive by read this and wrinkle their nose at the icky thought...:spider:

heh. you said "vulva". heh.

[Queerasfck]

Wow, Ezee. While I do love a being on the receiving end of a good razzing, I saw that you were the last person to post and was expecting some smartypants insight...so I'm feeling a little bit let-down. ;)

Do you have anything to add to the conversation, Tiger?

(I loooooove your ladyfriend.)

Add ins:

I try to treat all people with respect
What goes on between consenting adults isn't really that interesting to me (most of the time)
I get off just fine


I think that's it.

[apretty]

i have a few questions, they're in black...

Because this right here, the online butch/femme community, is the one place in the world where it's safe to say "he" about a person who is living in a female body; more than that, it's immediately understood with little or no explanation. *shrugs*

but it's not understood--it actually adds to the confusion. and what does that do to the entire *person* while we (as a community) shove aside the *female* and pay some homage to "HE" of said person?


Also, sometimes it's the Butch's choice, not the partner's; so in that case, a person would not be flipping back and forth depending on the audience, but out of respect for the personal preference of the Butch.

it is the butch's choice, she does have control over choosing her pronoun (which includes the 'when/where' option), so it actually is flipping back and forth dependent on 'audience'. and do you think it's at all reasonable to request a femme to ping-pong between pronouns, dependent on some arbitrary set of rules? (this becomes no longer about gender--it's about something else, entirely--and not just safety tho i can understand that that is a concern--but when you have multiple rules surrounding pronouns i have to wonder about what that means.)

For some Butches, it means they DO care, but they bow to the reality of living in a mostly heterosexual world--and that means this, this community right here, is the only place where they can be validated for the male side of their being.

could you walk me through how using a MALE pronoun is anymore validating than using a FEMALE pronoun?

It seems like a really crucial point to me. I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity; for some Butches, this is the place they come to find validation of themselves as whole people, as "both female and male."

it feels actually less 'whole' to me because it seems like the "butch" is being parted-out like a junkyard truck. (not that i'm trying to console/mother/care-take anyone, here.)

As for partners using different pronouns at different times? For many people, it's easy to write one way and speak another--"he" online, "she" verbally--and very difficult to navigate speaking in two different ways about the same person. I never used to have any problems with that, but lately I find that I've been slipping; at first I was accidentally saying "he," but lately the overwhelming pressure the rest of the world puts on me to ONLY speak about Gryph as "she" means that I sometimes find myself saying or writing "she" when I would ordinarily use "he."


this has me curious, what is the 'he' that the 'she' doesn't encompass?

Here's the reason I accept that pressure: my allowing myself to be in the habit of saying "he" (in other words, saying "he" at home) could cause serious problems for Gryph--his co-workers, for instance, have sometimes been brutal about his identity--and his old friends, his family, my family, the local community, our neighbors, none of them would get it if I said "he." It would make life immensely more difficult for us both, and would not bring any benefits to either of us; it's better that I just say "she" when I'm speaking (verbally) to other people about Gryph.

is 'she' less-than? did Gryph use 'she' prior to meeting you?

Going back and forth between facebook (she) and BFP (he) sometimes trips me up; facebook is one of those places where the communities collide. A significant number of our facebook friends would be baffled by having to deal with Butch gender identification. (Our friends are certainly baffled by having to deal with my Femme gender identification--baffled to the point that I gave up trying to explain it long ago.) In that case, we figure our friends who are from the butch/femme community will get it about why we have to use the female pronouns for someone who has always been known in this community as "he," especially as it seems to be a pretty common occurrence among the Butches we're friended with.

Gryph, being a Two-Spirit, honestly does not care what other people call him, but I think if *I* stopped calling him "Daddy" and "he" it would puzzle and hurt him very much. I am the one person in his day-to-day life who sees him as he actually is, both female and male. We both need me to say "he," whenever and wherever it is safe to do so, and we both know that in order to avoid making mistakes, I have to be pretty consistent about where I say "she" and where I say "he."

...

I didn't say anything about it (although I was flabbergasted; "beautiful"? Has she never paid attention to his pictures, to his wonderful craggy face?) because I don't know what he would want, and that's what's most important in a situation like this: how Gryph wants to respond. The person is someone he cares for, someone he's shepherding through a rough time; he very well might have decided either to speak or to let that go, and I have no right to decide for him. (But it was damned hard to hold my tongue!)

can't a butch be beautiful? can't Butch, be beautiful?

...

And that's the reason I say "he" here.

[SuperFemme]

Butches ARE beautiful. How can anyone negate THAT?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Butches ARE beautiful. How can anyone negate THAT?

Duh, cause that word only belongs to femmes.... Where ya been?:dimbulb:

[PapaC]

Forgive me for this critical statement, because lord knows I write one-liners and off topic/drive by commentary (because I'm sometimes a huge brat)...

but I'm feeling like we're getting off topic in this thread, and once again we're de-constructing identities within this community and moving away from discussion stemming from the OP.

(I'm not a moderator, so if this comment isn't cool, my bad)

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Forgive me for this critical statement, because lord knows I write one-liners and off topic/drive by commentary (because I'm sometimes a huge brat)...

but I'm feeling like we're getting off topic in this thread, and once again we're de-constructing identities within this community and moving away from discussion stemming from the OP.

(I'm not a moderator, so if this comment isn't cool, my bad)

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.


I think it almost funny that we are STILL having to do this, you would think as a community we would evolve and not continue to perpetuate the binary. I don't think it will happen unless we are open to listen and put into practice what is being talked about.

What chu think>?:balloon:

[apretty]

I realize there's a tie-in of sorts between discussing the dynamics of pronoun usages and general misogyny that exists in the world, but I for one would like to see more discussion about how misogynistic statements like 'short man with boobs' can affect us ALL as human beings, particularly those of us growing up in the female form.

because it reduces the woman to "almost a man" and chunks of flesh, like this:

http://www.temeats.com/storage/beef-Bambi-Edlund-illustration.jpg

[SuperFemme]

I think the more pertinent discussion is "how can we teach others how statements like "she's a short man with boobs are erasing and hurtful"?

Because we all know misogyny and sexism are hurtful. To EVERYONE.

[DapperButch]

I think it almost funny that we are STILL having to do this, you would think as a community we would evolve and not continue to perpetuate the binary. I don't think it will happen unless we are open to listen and put into practice what is being talked about.

What chu think>?:balloon:

I think we should agree to:

a) Calling all butches she if they do not use the pronoun space

OR

b) Calling all butches he if they do not use the pronoun space.

Anything can be written in the pronoun space and it is expected that people will do their best to look to the left <--- prior to posting.

That is what I think. :bluesbrothers:


Yes, I know I am :deadhorse:

(and yes, this post is pretty much tongue in cheek...but it SURE would make life easier!)

[PapaC]

because it reduces the woman to "almost a man" and chunks of flesh, like this:

http://www.temeats.com/storage/beef-Bambi-Edlund-illustration.jpg

you know devil's advocate here (examining myself now)...
it IS possible that my personal reaction to "short man with boobs" may stem from, my desire as a transman to change my body, and yes, that includes downplaying/hiding/changing my appearance and that typically means... not drawing attention to my boobs.

it's a tough personal examination, I have to admit, but one I'm willing to do. I have the 'comfort' of years of slow transition, because as odd as this might sound, the use of medical transition has created a dichotomy of sorts (again) but this time....

I'm passing as male, in my (mostly) female form and that's more comfortable for me. In that comfort, I'm re-discovering my form, re-defining it for myself, all the while doing it in a setting that feels comfortable to me.

Years ago, my ex husband reached out for my tits. It was supposed to be in a safe, intimate setting. He did nothing wrong. But in that instant, there was a rage in me, and I slapped his hands HARD and pushed him away in complete anger.

He unwittingly triggered a memory I had of my best friend at bible camp fondling my breasts and it was uncomfortable but I was young. it was one of those "put out or shut up" situations. I wasn't empowered, old enough, mature enough to say "NO".

For years, I felt like my boobs "reduced" me. like, it was all the world saw. The world (I felt) didn't see me past my body parts. The world (I felt), therefore downplayed any other qualities of my body and being (does that make sense?)

I realize now that it's possible I was triggered/uncomfortable during those exchanges because these boys/men were seeing me as a woman, not as something else. I don't vilify them any more. I no longer feel like their touch was "emasculating" me, or 'feminizing' me per se...

It wasn't until I met gay men (I'm sure there are straight men too) who are in touch with their own chests are erogenous areas that allowed me to feel some acceptance to my own body as is (for now). That, coupled with a fabulous understanding wife who 'gets me' has made all the difference.

In another thread, I talked about how I personally vowed to look at the plight of transwomen and my acceptance of their beings, and appreciation for their process as much as my own. I want to combat my own level of 'discomfort' . that's a hard admission. And I'm still working on it....

In the same way, I vowed that as part of my transition, I'd fully examine for myself how misogyny HAS played into my desire to transition. I can't escape this examination and more importantly? I won't.

Heart (and I hope she doesn't mind my mentioning this), has a history of having so much fucking mud slinged over to her direction, where even some friends of mine have called her statements transphobic. If there are reasons why I'm here in these threads, it's because I want my voice to be heard too, from a trans-perspective, because misogyny affects as all.

[AtLast]

you know devil's advocate here (examining myself now)...
it IS possible that my personal reaction to "short man with boobs" may stem from, my desire as a transman to change my body, and yes, that includes downplaying/hiding/changing my appearance and that typically means... not drawing attention to my boobs.

it's a tough personal examination, I have to admit, but one I'm willing to do. I have the 'comfort' of years of slow transition, because as odd as this might sound, the use of medical transition has created a dichotomy of sorts (again) but this time....

I'm passing as male, in my (mostly) female form and that's more comfortable for me. In that comfort, I'm re-discovering my form, re-defining it for myself, all the while doing it in a setting that feels comfortable to me.

Years ago, my ex husband reached out for my tits. It was supposed to be in a safe, intimate setting. He did nothing wrong. But in that instant, there was a rage in me, and I slapped his hands HARD and pushed him away in complete anger.

He unwittingly triggered a memory I had of my best friend at bible camp fondling my breasts and it was uncomfortable but I was young. it was one of those "put out or shut up" situations. I wasn't empowered, old enough, mature enough to say "NO".

For years, I felt like my boobs "reduced" me. like, it was all the world saw. The world (I felt) didn't see me past my body parts. The world (I felt), therefore downplayed any other qualities of my body and being (does that make sense?)

I realize now that it's possible I was triggered/uncomfortable during those exchanges because these boys/men were seeing me as a woman, not as something else. I don't vilify them any more. I no longer feel like their touch was "emasculating" me, or 'feminizing' me per se...

It wasn't until I met gay men (I'm sure there are straight men too) who are in touch with their own chests are erogenous areas that allowed me to feel some acceptance to my own body as is (for now). That, coupled with a fabulous understanding wife who 'gets me' has made all the difference.

In another thread, I talked about how I personally vowed to look at the plight of transwomen and my acceptance of their beings, and appreciation for their process as much as my own. I want to combat my own level of 'discomfort' . that's a hard admission. And I'm still working on it....

In the same way, I vowed that as part of my transition, I'd fully examine for myself how misogyny HAS played into my desire to transition. I can't escape this examination and more importantly? I won't.

Heart (and I hope she doesn't mind my mentioning this), has a history of having so much fucking mud slinged over to her direction, where even some friends of mine have called her statements transphobic. If there are reasons why I'm here in these threads, it's because I want my voice to be heard too, from a trans-perspective, because misogyny affects as all.

Your entire post touches many thing in me and cuts across the divisions we all (butches, femmes, trans/inter-gebndered, et ALL) struggle so deeply with. Mysogyny certainly does touch us all.

I have to add that i appreciate the comments about Heart as I have been really having a hard time with her again being pissed-on when she brings up such relevant (yet, not easy to discuss) topics and issues. I'm tired of her (and a couple of other members) needing to exit threads as valuable as this one, especially when they are the ones bringing these critical matters to us all to attempt conversation and hopefully, take some new awareness in. frankly, it just makes me sad. She's kicked me in the butt a few times when I needed it and I am a better person for this because this makes me THINK!

I don't know if what I am saying is appropriate or not, but, I just needed to say it. I'm not cheerleading, I'm just speaking my truth and appreciate your being able to as well.

It seems that the last few posts from femmes might just move us through so much more and I hope this happens. Also, it feels so fucking good to be involved in a thread about such sensitive butch stuff with trans, MIBs and inter-gendered folks and other FIBs in which we are all comfortable talking about things and not falling into angry stances. This feels respectful and inclusive and frankly, has brought some tears to my eyes and a whole lot of pride to my heart and soul as a butch and member.

[Toughy]

I think we should agree to:

a) Calling all butches she if they do not use the pronoun space

OR

b) Calling all butches he if they do not use the pronoun space.

Anything can be written in the pronoun space and it is expected that people will do their best to look to the left <--- prior to posting.

That is what I think. :bluesbrothers:


Yes, I know I am :deadhorse:

(and yes, this post is pretty much tongue in cheek...but it SURE would make life easier!)

if B is the chosen option...........well.... that will get my tits in ringer damn quick especially consider how much time has been spent in this thread alone pointing out that it's just utter bullshit to default to 'he' for butch pronouns. I never have been about making life easier............laughin..

----------
My name has been thrown out here several times.........laughin.....

First for those who are new. I have been ranting/raving/talking about this on-line pronoun issue for at least 10 years now. I have never let up, even when it seemed I was the only butch woman on the other site. It's important. I do have to say this.........I kind of giggle to myself when someone suggests that because I prefer female pronouns and have been known to be the one making footprints on the ceiling, I am somehow less butch or less masculine. Oh wait...........I said I giggled......dammittalltohell.... butches don't giggle.......I forget these things....I'm also not supposed to be called beautiful or like receiving flowers.

Snow............yep I do remember being called 'Miss'. I was kind of stunned at first, but then I got over that. I'm rarely ever given to violence, however I would have ripped her face off if I could have. I don't know if I ever thanked those who jumped up her shit for that........thank you if I didn't.

I do think femmes police butch pronouns and gender expression far more than butches do. I've never ever had a butch tell me they thought of all butches as he. I certainly have had femmes tell me that.......and the ones who have would shock folks if I named names. I do think I've been policed far more for claiming my cunt and my clit than for my wanting she as a pronoun. Interestingly that policing on both fronts has been done by femmes under the age of 45 or so.

I am also amazed that someone ALWAYS comes in a thread about butch woman and defends/talks about male id'd butches...........ALWAYS........EVERY TIME. I had somehow hoped it would not happen here.........but that was stupid on my part....

anyway.........I'm rambling now and I hope this is the right thread.........laughin...........I'm having a mentalpause day..........

[AtLast]

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.

Just a little re-focusing.....

[Toughy]

For some Butches, it means they DO care, but they bow to the reality of living in a mostly heterosexual world--and that means this, this community right here, is the only place where they can be validated for the male side of their being.

I don't know if I said this on this site or a different one, but I have said this before.

My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that.

The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that.......

My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman.

I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen.

[Toughy]

I don't know if I said this on this site or a different one, but I have said this before.

My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that.

The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that.......

My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman.

I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen.

I quote myself for a reason..........I wanted to add

A place to be accepted and loved for being a butch woman who has a cunt, a clit, and a cock..............

[redrose]

i did love a butch, and i still love her, whatever they say about butches, i just love her, including her boobs (lol!), i love the whole package, and no one can stop me from loving her, i love her, i love her, i just love her :love1:

[BullDog]

I don't know if I said this on this site or a different one, but I have said this before.

My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that.

The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that.......

My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman.

I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen.

Thanks for this Toughy. It's been gnawing at me for a few days. Yes male identified butches need a place for support and being understood. So do butch women. So do femmes and trans people and everyone.

Coming into a place as a butch woman where you think you are finally with your community and then being He'd all the time and always compared or likened to men- what does that do for the validation for butch women? We are called the right pronouns in the outside world (although still quite misunderstood), but the wrong ones in our own community? :| That's what it was like for quite some time before this site. So the first exposure many butch women had to an online b-f community (and many people have a limited or non-existence real time b-f community) was to immediately be called He.

All of us need validation. All of us need support. I don't feel that male pronouns are the default here at BFP. I am very happy about that. I also have no problem referring to anyone as He who wants to be referred that way.

[AtLast]

I don't know if I said this on this site or a different one, but I have said this before.

My insecurities have never been about my masculinity. That is the obvious, visible part of me. My insecurity lies in being a woman. Little kids ask me if I am a boy or a girl and that includes my nieces/nephews and their kids. I pass as man at least 75% of the time and probably 90+%, but I don't want to see that.

The first time I remember being called Sir was when I was 18 and on a date with my fiance (yes I was engaged to a man).............you can only imagine what he had to say to me about that.......

My point is............this butch/femme on-line community could be the first exposure to and sometimes the only place where a very masculine woman could be recognized as woman. To not be pigeon-holed to being a man simply because I don't happen fit in 'normal society' as a woman. A place to be accepted and loved for who I am......a masculine female.....a butch woman.

I thank Angie and Jack for intentionally creating a space where this can happen.


This is exactly how it is for me in navigating the world, past and present. And I am glad that it also a space in which those who need the other side/any and all sides to this equation can be themselves. And I will always bring out the wonder I feel as a butch woman with breasts, vagina, clitoris and accessories as needed. (Yup, I’m a breast stimulated cuming, penetration adoring, un-invested in butch cock as required not afraid to say it butch woman that continually is called sir who corrects when called such!Oh, and did you know that some men cum via breast stimulation.. without anything going on with their cock?) Like I said before, I am not going to hide my female/woman features or allow my being female-identified be dismissed or shamed (or relegated to butch-lite - love this, Bully)). I also believe that this community can stand together and fight every form of misogyny and sexism, trans/homophobia or various negative judgments of sexuality (i.e., stone, BDSM) that hurts every single one of us no matter how we identify or live our lives.

No, I won't be pigeon-holed to being a man (or male defaulted) either, but to me as a person, recognizing what goes on for people on these various sides is important and is a major factor that makes this a community. I don't have to be something, understand it fully or even agree with it in order to honor its right for recognition and liberty among this entire community (been thinking a lot about constitutional matters lately, so terms like liberty and justice are just on my mind - its an election year with another Supreme Court nomination going on).

Oh, I already have ringing in my ears! I don’t care if my butchness gets called into question (although think this is palin bullshit), I know who I am and I don’t partake in popularity contests. The same femme that wanted to change my first name to something more manly also told me I would never gain respect from other butches unless I became enamored with and invested in butch cock. ARGH!! And yes, I have gotten shit from butches too around this stuff (guess she had a point), been snubbed by some of them, etc. - so please, do not take that statement as blaming everything on femmes- I don’t. This garbage falls into both butch & femme categories and we all need to own it and erradicate it.

[BullDog]

Tonight I was lucky enough to get together with a group of people that included femmes, a couple butches that go by He, quite a few butches that go by She, and some people whom I am not sure how they identify. Anyway, the important thing wasn't everyone's pronouns or gender identity. What was important was we had good conversation, games, food and delicious cupcakes!

[JustJo]

I don't have to be something, understand it fully or even agree with it in order to honor its right for recognition and liberty among this entire community

Thank you AtLast...you've summed up exactly what I feel in this one sentence. As a newbie to this dynamic there's alot that I don't understand; there's alot that I am not ...and there's even some that personally confuses the heck out of me :giggle: ...but I am with you that I absolutely honor everyone's right to be who they are, and to be recognized...and even celebrated....for that. :rrose:

[Medusa]

Tonight I was lucky enough to get together with a group of people that included femmes, a couple butches that go by He, quite a few butches that go by She, and some people whom I am not sure how they identify. Anyway, the important thing wasn't everyone's pronouns or gender identity. What was important was we had good conversation, games, food and delicious cupcakes!


Bully,

Your post has been reported for taunting the rest of us about the cupcakes. Someone needs to share!!!!!!
(Did anyone lose a fillng?!)

[blush]

Out of how many sites, how many threads, how many years (!)*butch* identity gets discussed/analysed, deconstructed (and put back together again!), it goes on and on.

There have been some awesome people who have started great *Femme* threads, but, constantly, the threads that get the most feedback are about BUTCHES (FIB and MIB) /TG/MEN of our community and their identities.

What is that about their (butch/female and male dependent) identities that make for the most heated (and most interesting!) conversations when femme threads do not get half the attention?

Maybe it's transgression that makes this discussion so much more of a focal point than any discussion involving feminine experience, or maybe it's controversy or maybe it's a masculine topic and therefore deemed more worthy of discussion...

Every once in a while, I find myself reading (perhaps imagining?) a certain strain within this type of thread that feels like this to me:

The masculine folks demanding more respect from the feminine folks than they already get while at the same time being less than respectful toward feminine folks who get it "wrong." I see masculine folks complaining about femme "laziness" and "apathy" and such for not always getting things right. Most femmes I know have bent over backwards for the butches they know or have known in an attempt to understand and be respectful of them. I even see masculine (and feminine) folks blaming the behavior of feminine folks for the behavior of masculine folks who send mixed messages about their own IDs - which I think is actually the most infantilizing, demeaning assertion regarding masculine community members that I've seen in this thread.

I really want to be on board with whatever I need to be on board with to be an ally to every member of this community, and when I read about how femmes are being perceived as so lazy and apathetic, I feel exasperated, frustrated, helpless and disrespected as a femme. It's soooo sexist to call a butch by the wrong pronoun, to misinterpret their gender or to misrepresent them to the heterocentric world, but complaining about how femmes aren't being nurturing, attentive, understanding or respectful enough toward masculine folks - that doesn't hint at misogyny?

You know what I don't see a lot of? I don't see a lot of feminine people here in threads talking about how lazy or thoughtless the masculine folks here are for not understanding and respecting the feminine folks enough. Do you think it's because we (feminine folks) feel like we always get respect from the masculine folks?

I have been guilty of defaulting to different pronouns in the past. To me there are two different main types of default. There is the default pronoun used in hypothetical situations and then there is using a default pronoun with a specific person, regardless of how they ID. I have mostly been guilty of the first type of default, but I know there are times I have slipped with the second.

Guess what? It's freaking hard. It's hard to remember, it's hard to keep track. Some of the masculine folks I've known from this community have even changed pronouns and identities sometimes more than once over a matter of months or years. It's hard to keep track, it's hard to always get it right. To me, it does become a laundry list, and at some point, the amount of psychic energy it takes to remember every single masculine member of the community's preference becomes too much.

How much time and energy does a masculine member of the community feel they need to spend talking to an individual femme about their gender experience, identity, pronouns, etc, before they consider her apathetic and disrespectful for not knowing their stuff? Do they know her stuff? Are they invested in her, or do they just expect her to be invested in them no matter how much or how little they respect or even think about her?

It seems like many of the masculine folks here want all this "respect" and really sometimes I feel like the respect which is being demanded is actually being confused with male privilege. And if male privilege does exist on this site, then maybe working toward dismantling it together would be the better option than demanding to receive equal share in it.

PS. I am mutilating the English language by purposefully using "they" and "them" as gender-neutral singular pronouns in the above post. As odious as this is for my poor English major brain, I think I'm going to make it a habit. I just didn't feel like writing "her/hir/hym/him" a hundred times. Sorry, my dear English.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

[Soon]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

No, my post wasn't so much about pronouns--I'm pretty solid about noticing and/or remembering people's preferences.

I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be.

[blush]

No, my post wasn't so much about pronouns--I'm pretty solid about noticing and/or remembering people's preferences.

I was just making an observation that the topic of butch and masculine/male identities garner so much more attention and discussion than threads which attempt to explore femme identities/experiences. And, yes, there is some frustration with that fact but some interesting ideas were posited about why that may be.


My initial response was more relevant to what you had posted. I edited it.
Sorry for the confusion.

I think we're all pretty solid on our awareness of people's preferences. But I think femmes are held more accountable than other people if the pronoun is incorrect, or if she admits that sometimes it's hard.

[Dude]

For starters, I really take offence with the short man with boobs thing this
woman said.

I wont go on about my problem with short men. My dad was one,nearly all of my bosses
have exuded the stuff of the short man syndrome.
It would be completely unfair to short men everywhere to say they are all alike, I get that.

With the short man and the boobs word ,I would be completely insulted by them used
together to describe me to the fuckin world.

Let me talk cows then.

Had I been born a cow , bull would be what I identified with from a very young age.
I dreamed of having a wife and providing for my family from the age of 10ish.
Smallish udders began to appear 6 years after that. At that time, I decided I could
have a nice life after surgery.
As time went by, I realized there were women who preferred odd ducks such as
myself and surgery was not really necessary at this point in time.

Later, I realized my mom would have huge issues (nervous breakdown or perhaps tons of dramatics as to what she had done wrong as a mother when it came to me)
She would have been horrified. It was hard enough for her to be the first to tell me at 12 "woah
you are a butch"!!!
I loved her and did nothing. On morphine, towards her passing was when she was able to enjoy me for being just who I am.

So for me it's all very personal. 9 times out of 10 it seems people out and about ,or at work etc call me sir.

I don't have the energy or words to correct them all.
Especially if I'm correcting them to a maam or miss or she.

This does not negate the fact that I also am very proud of the many times I have been
the first bull with udders to be hired to do a strictly bull job.


My honey just reminded me of a movie called barnyard she made me watch with her.
The boy cows even have udders.
:farmbull:
She then told me I cant be Ben the bull because Ben was nice and I'm not a cow I'm an ass.

:seconddoh:

[BullDog]

Bully,

Your post has been reported for taunting the rest of us about the cupcakes. Someone needs to share!!!!!!
(Did anyone lose a fillng?!)

The Ezee-June cupcakes were out of this world! I had two, even though they were incredibly rich. No fillings were lost, just lots of pleasant sugar highs. We even got to take one home!

I truly wish everyone could have been there. :)

[BullDog]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

I don't think many butches are upset about honest and unintentional mistakes. I definitely don't think that's what people are talking about in this thread. If unsure all people have to do is ask or just not use a pronoun. It may sound a bit awkward but it can be done.

[Queerasfck]

The Ezee-June cupcakes were out of this world! I had two, even though they were incredibly rich. No fillings were lost, just lots of pleasant sugar highs. We even got to take one home!

I truly wish everyone could have been there. :)

Next time we're so there. Sounds like you all had a wonderful time.
I've always wanted to see Portland and June's chicken. Wondering if it's like Betty White's muffin.......

[BullDog]

Next time we're so there. Sounds like you all had a wonderful time.
I've always wanted to see Portland and June's chicken. Wondering if it's like Betty White's muffin.......

Awesome Ezee! It will be great to see you and apretty.

[Gemme]

On that same coin / opposite side - what the fresh fuck is it with Femmes who partner with Stone Butches being called "High Femmes"?

This is a bit of a generalization that I've heard before. Not all do id that way. :)


Love your Fuck Thats! :wtf:

I don't get it. Don't much care for any hierarchy, actually. But, I think I just don't understand what this is all about. How and why this insinuation is even made. Thanks.

Also, all of the less than/more of garbage about butches or femmes makes me crazy! Why are we so wrapped-up in this kind of stuff? Has it always been like this in the B-F community? For a community that shouts about diversity being such an important aspect, the narrowness in what is butch or femme and to what degree is astounding.

OMG, I'm cussing!!

Uh oh. :blink:. Cuss away.

There are so many identities in our community, I suppose it is quite easy to be confused by them all and, according to where someone lives and their exposure to various identities throughout their lives, most may never be exposed to them all. And then, just when someone has it all figured out, the identities will evolve. So, it's not about the identities, but the people who carry them in their hearts and on their sleeve, so I agree with you about tearing one another down. It's garbage. It's almost like the intolerance we feel towards our community as a whole has been encapsulated and turned inward. Energy, especially negative, doesn't die...it has to go somewhere and so we use it to strike out at our own.

*rambling*

[BullDog]

These are great points from AtLast and Gemme. You know we talk about fighting the binary and being in favor of gender diversity all the time, but at the same time there also seems to be a tendency to want to stereotype and simplify as well. To a certain degree that may be human nature. We may all gravitate towards what we are most familiar with.

However, if we really do want to fight the binary, let's start within our own community. Saying that only having two genders- man and woman - is limiting and then having narrow meanings of what femme and butch are or perpetuating stereotypes doesn't get us far at all. That's not to say many haven't been trying hard already, but I am sure we can all try to do better and broaden and deepen our understandings of each other.

Yes it can be hard to remember pronouns, it can be hard to understand all the different genders and gender expressions if you aren't familiar with them or aren't exposed to them in real time. None of this necessarily easy, but with a gender diverse community there will be more variables. That's what diversity means in the first place.

[Darth Denkay]

So many excellent points made in this thread, but this one especially stuck out to me.


We're linear people living in a linear world. We grow, chronologically, along a linear scale - 15 is "less than" 20 when talking about age - so it's easy for me to see how some people can view what they used to be as being "less than" what they are now. Especially when what they used to be was something they didn't like or weren't comfortable with. That process of evolution from "just me" to "butch" to "stone butch" to "TG butch", etc. is very linear for most people so "just me" becomes less than "TG butch" for them. I think the issues come in when people can't see that the process is an individual one and not everyone evolves at the same rate or even to the same place.

I've spent a lot of time in the last 8 year's trying to define my own identity. Really, truly, in my heart of heart's I probably fall more into the "just me" category because I do see my gender as a fluid, ever changing kind of thing. I fall more to the male ID'd side of things, and it's where I'm most comfortable on a public level, but there's so much more to me then just that.


I think that Gayla identified a key aspect of what occurs on this and other similar sites. I've been involved in the b-f online community for about 12 years now. When I first joined, the default clearly was he. This felt comfortable to me so I never gave it a second thought. Over the years my identity "evolved". I went from butch to trans-butch-masculine-stone-daddy, and I imagine there were a few other identifiers I used at some point. I saw myself "evolving," as though butch was just the starting point for something bigger and better. At some point I dropped stone and daddy - figured those identities are really just applicable to someone I'm dating and/or sleeping with so they really were no one's business. I continued to play around with trans, butch, masculine-identified, male-identified, and at this point I have "evolved" to identifying as butch. Without being conscious of it, I was completely buying into a butch hierarchy. Recently someone - I think it was Bully but not certain - challenged me on my identity as masculine-identified. Since then I've been really thinking about all of this butch gender stuff, and realized that for me butch is plenty.

I think the use of the word "evolve" is key here. There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch. I looked up evolution, and while I know some of you loathe definitions in posts I think this is important.

By way of dictionary.com


e·volve
   e·volved, e·volv·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to develop gradually: to evolve a scheme.
2.
to give off or emit, as odors or vapors.
–verb (used without object)
3.
to come forth gradually into being; develop; undergo evolution: The whole idea evolved from a casual remark.
4.
Biology . to develop by a process of evolution to a different adaptive state or condition: The human species evolved from an ancestor that was probably arboreal.

My inclusion of the definition is to point out that I think often the word "evolve" is assumed to mean 'changed into something better', when all it really signifies is change into something else. I think a lot of this is due to how we envision the evolution of the species as going from less complex to more complex, with more complex being better than less complex. I think an amoeba might disagree there, although it probably doesn't give a damn because it has more important amoeba things to do. Anyway, it's one thing for identities to change, but it's another for the change to be seen as a progression from less to more.

As I've considered my own identifiers, I realized something. I was identifying as masculine, because I saw myself as masculine more than feminine but not male, as I understand that to be (in my mind) more closely tied to man. However, don't most butches identity as masculine? Saying that I am masculine doesn't give any information that distinguishes me from female or male identified folks. I tried to figure out, okay self, are you more like female or male identified, and I have absolutely no idea. I like male pronouns because they recognize my masculinity. For me that feels good. For other butches, who may feel just as masculine, female pronouns feel right. Is our masculinity any different - who the hell knows. So after years of "evolution" here I am back to being butch. A butch who prefers male pronouns, but nonetheless butch.

I realize that pronouns carry differing amounts of importance for different people. It is important to me that people respect my preference here. I don't mean to suggest that additional identifiers are useless for others, but to describe myself they don't offer additional information. I don't know of any way to quantify the difference between a female-identified butch and a male-identified butch. What's the difference between a butch who identifies as a woman and one who does not. There are qualitative differences to be sure, but I don't know where to start with defining those.

All of this is to say that I think we often are stuck on this "evolution" of butch (with no similar evolution for femme) and do place value on undergoing this evolution. In the end, change identities because they better describe you, but not because you're supposed to. Evolution does not lead to better, only different.

[AtLast]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that both of these posts speak to that frustration femmes feel about pronouns. The one that acknowledges that sometimes it's fucking hard for ALL of us to keep pronouns straight. Yet femmes are most likely to be called out if we get the pronoun wrong. Why is that? To admit that it's hard sometimes is just that: admitting that it's hard. So what. It doesn't mean it's not worth it, or we don't fully understand the why and how of it.

However, it has gotten to the point that if a femme acknowledges that it's difficult sometimes to keep pronouns straight, we are slapped as not caring enough about a butch's or transperson's identity. We aren't trying hard enough. We don't understand. We want to emasculate you.

Are femmes held more accountable for pronoun mis-naming whether intentional or not? It sure feels that way.

I think (could be wrong) that most of the posts at first were in response to the laziness explanation posted. Mainly, because we do have a place on the Planet to just put the pronouns we prefer out there.

However, quite a few ensuing posts brought up some very gamey things that frankly, I have to put on butches. Feel like these examples of how genuine attempts for the sake of clarity and respectful interaction can run afoul. And the most disturbing thing to me is that underlying this is the continuation of some butches feeling they must man-up on the site. I am probably going to get smacked around for this, but....... if and when this happens, it is more about personal insecurity and not femmes or other butches, TG/IG folks. Yes, I think some of this is hard at times, but we all have to look at ourselves in life and own personal horseshit (good clinical term, LOL). Not easy, not fun, but necessary. Accountability is always personal.

I posted a couple of situations that happened to me, that involved a femme as examples for the discussion as a whole. I in no way meant this as femme bashing or placing ultimate blame on femmes. In the end, butches have to take responsibility for ourselves and speak up for ourselves (all butches, no matter the identity). I should have included that I did just that in that situation- told her exactly how I felt about this and why this went to the fact that I could not pursue a relationship with her. Not in a mean way.

Part of what I am saying here has to do with disdain for things like butch-ego (really meaning male-ego). Didn’t care for this when I was hetero, made certain my son did not internalize and buy it, and find it insulting not only as a butch, but as a human being. It seems like there are related terms/phrases that femmes get tagged with that are equally as insulting. There have been many times that I have seen very insulting assumptions about femme identity both from butches and other femmes. Thinking now about some of the posts bringing to light that we seem to discuss this in terms of butches far more.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[DapperButch]

.... There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch....


[/FONT]

Hey, there, Darth.

First I want to say that I loved your post. LOVED it.

But, I chopped the heck out of it...lol I took just one snipet of it, but I think that this is not taken out of context from the whole post. If so, please let me know.

Anyway, with that said....

I absolutely disagree with you. lol I strongly disagree with the idea that there is an unspoken understanding that butch should evolve into something specific and that ideally it should be a more masculine identity.

Absolutely disagree.

Now I have seen some butches who seem to not understand their own feelings of masculinity and subsequently they wonder if this means they are FTM (I am thinking I see this most often with people who just figure out that they are butch/find community for the first time), but I disagree that there is some expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity", than "just butch" when they walk in the door.

But, that's just my opinion.

ETA: This is not the same as saying that there has not been an encouargement towards using the pronoun he in the community. That is a different issue, in my mind.

[AtLast]

Hey, there, Darth.

First I want to say that I loved your post. LOVED it.

But, I chopped the heck out of it...lol I took just one snipet of it, but I think that this is not taken out of context from the whole post. If so, please let me know.

Anyway, with that said....

I absolutely disagree with you. lol I strongly disagree with the idea that there is an unspoken understanding that butch should evolve into something specific and that ideally it should be a more masculine identity.

Absolutely disagree.



Now I have seen some butches who seem to not understand their own feelings of masculinity and subsequently they wonder if this means they are FTM (I am thinking I see this most often with people who just figure out that they are butch/find community for the first time), but I disagree that there is some expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity", than "just butch" when they walk in the door.

But, that's just my opinion.

ETA: This is not the same as saying that there has not been an encouargement towards using the pronoun he in the community. That is a different issue, in my mind.

Hi Dapper-


I have to say that I have felt what Darth brought up (the expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity") in our community. However, it is really important to take this apart and look inside at what is going on and consider one's own insecurities or just unfinished evolvement. Or maybe even personal experiences. Usually, when I do this, I find that so much of what is going on is about me figuring me out. This is where the whole blame-game stuff can get way out of hand.

When it comes down to it, no one can make me into something I don't want to be or do not experience as incongruent.

I wonder, though, if there exists an age variable here. I know that when I was in my teens, 20's and even part of my 30's, social/peer pressure did influence me. Just thinking this over... wanting to be accepted by others we perceive as an ideal or having desired characteristics can be a powerful force.

Yes, the pronoun stuff is another issue.


No, I am not insinuating a thing about butches that transition who are not FtM's or Inter-gendered. I think there is a whole lot of bio-physiological gender explanations (including chromosomal links) that explain this. But, as much as we try, the traditional gender binary keeps poking its ugly head out. And it hurts us all… butches and femmes… the whole damn world of gender designations!

[Heart]

I saw myself "evolving," as though butch was just the starting point for something bigger and better....

Without being conscious of it, I was completely buying into a butch hierarchy....

There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch.


Pronouns are a matter of preference and a way to demonstrate respect to each other, but they are not the core issue, as Darth eloquently demonstrates with his post.

The above statements are key in terms of what I think of as a core issues in the community - valuing male over female, man over woman, therefore Butch becomes a "starting point" on a journey, inevitably, towards male identity. God - that is painful to even type. It is so totally negating of butch as a whole identity, as a valid female identity. But I think, sadly, it is common. It can be almost unconscious, but it is deeply rooted.

Heart

[DapperButch]

Hi Dapper-


I have to say that I have felt what Darth brought up (the expectation that a butch will evolve into a "more masculine identity") in our community. However, it is really important to take this apart and look inside at what is going on and consider one's own insecurities or just unfinished evolvement. Or maybe even personal experiences. Usually, when I do this, I find that so much of what is going on is about me figuring me out. This is where the whole blame-game stuff can get way out of hand.
When it comes down to it, no one can make me into something I don't want to be or do not experience as incongruent.

I wonder, though, if there exists an age variable here. I know that when I was in my teens, 20's and even part of my 30's, social/peer pressure did influence me. Just thinking this over... wanting to be accepted by others we perceive as an ideal or having desired characteristics can be a powerful force.
Yes, the pronoun stuff is another issue.


No, I am not insinuating a thing about butches that transition who are not FtM's or Inter-gendered. I think there is a whole lot of bio-physiological gender explanations (including chromosomal links) that explain this. But, as much as we try, the traditional gender binary keeps poking its ugly head out. And it hurts us all… butches and femmes… the whole damn world of gender designations!

Yes, the first statement is similar to where I was going in my post (one's own self awareness), and your second point I wanted to say also, but couldn't figure out a way to say it well.

Just as I was teasing out the pronoun issue, I also want to tease out the fact that in my posts I am not speaking to the belief often presented that male is valued over female in our community (subsequently, male id butch possibly being valued over female id butch).

Thanks.

[AtLast]

Pronouns are a matter of preference and a way to demonstrate respect to each other, but they are not the core issue, as Darth eloquently demonstrates with his post.

The above statements are key in terms of what I think of as a core issues in the community - valuing male over female, man over woman, therefore Butch becomes a "starting point" on a journey, inevitably, towards male identity. God - that is painful to even type. It is so totally negating of butch as a whole identity, as a valid female identity. But I think, sadly, it is common. It can be almost unconscious, but it is deeply rooted.

Heart


Horribly painful to see and cope with even when one values gender diversity. Sometimes, the unconscious aspect you speak of is the most painful to me. It often feels like an elusive, aggressive form of cancer that defies any and all treatments because there is so much scar tissue covering its etiology. Yet, where it stems from is right in front of us. This not only negates butch in its entirety, it helps misogyny continue to take from us all.

My butch journey has been one of embracing female more than ever before. Although, I have to admit this has been more outside of the B-F online communities, yet several of the people that have been part of this do participate here. And not all are FIB or femmes or even women.

But I sure do grow tired of this "starting point" on a journey, inevitably, towards male identity mentality. Sometimes, I really have to fight with myself to remain in the B-F community!

Sap that I am at times, I somehow gain the strength to continue here, but it is the other folks like you that have a hell of a lot to do with this!

[Dylan]

I just asked Mahhh Woman if she considers her pronoun a 'preference'...she said, "No. It's just my pronoun"

Seems logical enough. I'll bet if I asked my mother if she thought her pronoun was a 'preference', she'd probably wonder what the hell I was smoking.

I don't get why for butches, pronouns are considered a 'preference'. I mean, I have a preference for things like brands of coffee, cigarettes, candy bars, things like that.

Preference kind of implies a particular liking for something, but not necessarily a necessity. I mean, if the store is out Reese Peanut Butter cups, I might set my sights on...mmmmmm maybe a Twix Bar. 'Preference' implies if I don't get my way, there's other 'choices'.

I don't find my mother's pronoun a 'choice' or a 'preference'. It's just an IS. She's a she. No questions. No hard work. No one screws it up. No one has to write it down and make a big list.

And yet for butches, in a queer community, a pronoun is a 'preference'. It's WORK for QUEERS in a QUEER community to remember a pronoun? Really? It's difficult? Because, seems to me, in a queer community amongst QUEERS that I and other transguys would have more of a hard time with pronouns.

So that makes me wonder, WHY in a queer community are QUEERS defaulting to he? It's quite heterosexist for the default to be 'he', no? I mean, are butches just supposed to be male stand ins? Is it an "I'm not ready to accept I'm queer" thing?

And saying, "but but but, it's so harrrrrrrrdddddddd to keep track of a pronoun, and I don't like being called out when I don't want to do the 'work'..."...isn't that kind of like saying, "If you want to see all butches as he and male, why not just go back to men?"


I'm Being Serious, Because I Don't Get It...And I'm Willing To Bet Not Too Many Femmes Around Here Have A) EVER Been Called By The Wrong Pronoun And B) Consider Their Pronouns A 'Preference',
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Bustelo and Hy.

[Jett]

...........There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch. I looked up evolution, and while I know some of you loathe definitions in posts I think this is important.

..............My inclusion of the definition is to point out that I think often the word "evolve" is assumed to mean 'changed into something better', when all it really signifies is change into something else.........

This is key to something that's been on my mind a lot lately and I'm going to kind of jump off it...

There are places, milestones in life we as people change and to grow and I've been going though one of those points.

In B-F context it's been coming out sideways as something of a fucking roller coaster really of hating labels, everything feeling itchy and trying to get out from under that feeling. But what I'd like to get at is about 6 weeks ago I took a bit of a self imposed hiatus, and I kind of woke up. Because in that time ended up looking at what was making me itchy about certain things/labels/words and my experiences that shaped those discomforts... instead of looking at how I could get around or avoid them which is what I had been doing.

I agree with you Darth, 100%. In our online community changes/movement (physical or other) along the gender lines is generally celebrated, as long as it's linear- toward male... and the hierarchy works it's way up hand in hand with this. I don't think it's expected for butches to move along that line but that that's the direction, to put it lightly, that's more valued... I don't think that's hard for anyone to see.

But the point... in that hiatus I changed my pronoun to she, and my appearance also changed somewhat... to more of a female appearance- and that doesn't equate to being feminine (again female doesn't mean feminine, two-whole-different-words). And I didn't change internally persay, but more let go of some bullshit I'd been holding on myself... shit I'd let sink it without realizing it.

And with all that I'm aware of the all the crap stuff enough and "unwritten laws" that for about a week I seriously questioned my remaining in the community, and NOT because my butch-ness changed, it didn't and I don't think it could, stone hasn't changed either, I suppose that could but I don't see it. I'm simply re-claiming being female, myself, and with it being female in butch and what that means for myself.

And make no mistake I can handle my own, always have. But it's more a question of with this I just wondered at what point does it push past the point of being worth the bull and the battle.

But part of being able to embrace this change in myself and grow with it is not giving a fuck about what anyone "thinks", we all grow in our own ways, and it's not always linear... but what's right for us. To me that's the most important thing to celebrate... and not which "direction" you went. I know lot of people probably aren't going to get it, but they don't need to except that my butch-ness doesn't depend one iota on how "male" I am or a pronoun, it never has.

You know I've read this a few times and I'm not even sure I got across what I intended... but like I said it's just some shit that's been weighing on my mind a hell of lot lately.

Peace,
Metropolis

[Medusa]

Great post, Met! And as usual, you have me doing some further thinking on the existence of and effects of the continuum.

I'll have to start another thread because I don't want to derail this one but I see a really similar happening in the Femme community with "the continuum" and the values places on the "hyper" Feminine.

We have a lot of "unwritten laws" in the Femme community as well, and although it might be wildly unpopular to suggest this, I am wondering if we don't as Femmes "celebrate" milestones that drive us toward the more homogenous version of "Femme" or "Woman" in much the same way that happens for the Butch community.

Im thinking particularly of Femmes who are elevated to a more "legitimate" or more "acceptable" status when they become partnered. (That whole "a single Femme is a dangerous Femme" thinking) or Femmes who are celebrated when they partner with a Transman.

I won't derail this thread any further with these thoughts but just wanted to say that I think these parallels tell at least me personally that there is something going on with the motion and direction that the Femme and Butch communities are pushed in with the created hierarchies.

I think there is more to it than trying to homogenize "Femme" or "Butch" into a heterosexual standard. It's almost like this need to be able to recognize each other as a "thing" or "label" becomes more important than recognizing the dynamic person. I'm not quite sure what it is yet but I'm thinking on it.

[BullDog]

Dylan you raise an excellent point. No my pronoun is not a preference. I didn't sit down one day to decide whether I preferred She or He. I've always been a She.

I've heard a couple explanations on why He became the default over on the Dash site. One of the owners said once that back in the Internet dark ages when they were communicating primarily via email lists there were no avatars, pics, etc to tell people apart so they used He for butches. I've also heard that in chat the default was He or Hy for butches to tell them apart from femmes and that's how we got to where we are now.

One thing I think is important to note is that these explanations really don't have anything to do with there being an increased influx of male identified butches. It is supposedly to tell butches apart from femmes, not to distinguish between different types of butches. I often hear when butch women are speaking up that we are afraid of becoming extinct. That really gives me a good laugh. Anyway...

First of all, I'm not sure why the hell you need to group people or tell them apart that way. If a person's gender is pertinent to the discussion, I'm sure they will let you know. When you are in chat talking back and forth does it really matter if the person is butch or femme? Is it an insult for a butch to be mistaken for a femme in chat? If so, why? Can't you ask if you really need to know?

If you are talking in third person about someone and for some reason you need to let your friend know who you are talking about is butch, you can say she's a butch or he's a butch.

I seriously don't get the whole "we need to tell the butches apart from the femmes" argument for using He. I thought we were queer/lesbian, homosexuals (same sex). What am I missing?

The other explanation I have heard is what it was a way to honor a butch's masculinity. Hah well it sure as hell doesn't honor mine. I think though this starts to get to the heart of the matter. People have a hard time thinking about masculinity in female terms. It is basically considered less disrespectful to call a butch He by mistake that goes by She, than to call a male identified butch She by mistake- which is like the worst crime in the world.

Masculinity is still closely associated with male. People have a hard time knowing how to recognize and refer to female masculinity that isn't associated with or compared with male. As many of us have said, this goes well beyond pronouns. It is not just pronouns which have become defaulted to male. Male has in many ways become the standard by which butches are measured.

Finally, butches like Toughy, myself and others have been speaking up for around 10 years. If for some reason it started out as a default with no ill intent, that's one thing. But why for years and years and years afterwards was there so much resistance to change after butches have been speaking up? Why is there still resistance by some?

I really think there is plenty of evidence to show that most butches are females and consider themselves to be females and many consider themselves to be women. Why the hell wouldn't that be the case? Most butches ARE females. We were born that way. Butch femme communities are comprised of female born people and trans people. If there were going to be any defaults, logically speaking it would be female pronouns and identities.

Those who identify as male should be respected and called by the proper pronouns. But they are not the majority and not the default. They never have been.

[Beau]

The "ideal" for a butch is "evolving" to a more "masculine identity" -- what. the. fuck?

The parts of me that are masculine are INNATE, biological, physiological aspects of my physical, psychological, and emotional self. They are not some manufactured or manipulated elements to produce "male".

I am evolved as a butch. Any further evolution is in terms of my own comfort level in dealing with an ignorant world that doesn't understand who or what I am.

[AtLast]

This is key to something that's been on my mind a lot lately and I'm going to kind of jump off it...

There are places, milestones in life we as people change and to grow and I've been going though one of those points.

In B-F context it's been coming out sideways as something of a fucking roller coaster really of hating labels, everything feeling itchy and trying to get out from under that feeling. But what I'd like to get at is about 6 weeks ago I took a bit of a self imposed hiatus, and I kind of woke up. Because in that time ended up looking at what was making me itchy about certain things/labels/words and my experiences that shaped those discomforts... instead of looking at how I could get around or avoid them which is what I had been doing.

I agree with you Darth, 100%. In our online community changes/movement (physical or other) along the gender lines is generally celebrated, as long as it's linear- toward male... and the hierarchy works it's way up hand in hand with this. I don't think it's expected for butches to move along that line but that that's the direction, to put it lightly, that's more valued... I don't think that's hard for anyone to see.

But the point... in that hiatus I changed my pronoun to she, and my appearance also changed somewhat... to more of a female appearance- and that doesn't equate to being feminine (again female doesn't mean feminine, two-whole-different-words). And I didn't change internally persay, but more let go of some bullshit I'd been holding on myself... shit I'd let sink it without realizing it.

And with all that I'm aware of the all the crap stuff enough and "unwritten laws" that for about a week I seriously questioned my remaining in the community, and NOT because my butch-ness changed, it didn't and I don't think it could, stone hasn't changed either, I suppose that could but I don't see it. I'm simply re-claiming being female, myself, and with it being female in butch and what that means for myself.

And make no mistake I can handle my own, always have. But it's more a question of with this I just wondered at what point does it push past the point of being worth the bull and the battle.

But part of being able to embrace this change in myself and grow with it is not giving a fuck about what anyone "thinks", we all grow in our own ways, and it's not always linear... but what's right for us. To me that's the most important thing to celebrate... and not which "direction" you went. I know lot of people probably aren't going to get it, but they don't need to except that my butch-ness doesn't depend one iota on how "male" I am or a pronoun, it never has.

You know I've read this a few times and I'm not even sure I got across what I intended... but like I said it's just some shit that's been weighing on my mind a hell of lot lately.

Peace,
Metropolis

Very clear to me, Met! Thank you. I have always gotten so much from your take on things which means you make me think about new aspects and ideas! What I am really happy about is that you will still contribute on these kinds of threads. There are some totally awesome butches that have just given up doing so and I feel that is a great loss. But, I get their frustration as they have been through this a zillion times and feel that they keep repeating things to no avail. I think their insight is needed more than ever.

I share your feelings at times of just exiting the community- even in real-time. A prime reason I date more in other populations in which the B-F identities are just not so pronounced. But, I live in an area in which finding queer, lesbian women overall is quite easy. And there are many, many femmes actually among them that just don't interact on B-F sites or even strictly attend B-F social events. I feel fortunate about this because it has become clear to me that femmes per se that I would be interested in just have to be more global in their thinking. My age does pose some restrictions as I am just not a butch that will date femmes far younger than myself. But, the baby-boom generation is well represented in these populations as well. I certainly find some younger femmes attractive in every aspect of what I perceive attractiveness to be (it isn't just about physical attributes), but I am at a time in life in which someone being able to fully retire fairly soon and does not have young kids that still require them to be around all of the time is what I am looking for. Also, I am just not going to date someone near or younger than my own kid and he's 41.

I'm rambling... anyway, I very much appreciate your thoughts here!

I hope Dusa starts that other thread!!

[Dylan]

Dylan you raise an excellent point. No my pronoun is not a preference. I didn't sit down one day to decide whether I preferred She or He. I've always been a She.

I've heard a couple explanations on why He became the default over on the Dash site. One of the owners said once that back in the Internet dark ages when they were communicating primarily via email lists there were no avatars, pics, etc to tell people apart so they used He for butches. I've also heard that in chat the default was He or Hy for :garbageboi:butches to tell them apart from femmes and that's how we got to where we are now.

One thing I think is important to note is that these explanations really don't have anything to do with there being an increased influx of male identified butches. It is supposedly to tell butches apart from femmes, not to distinguish between different types of butches. I often hear when butch women are speaking up that we are afraid of becoming extinct. That really gives me a good laugh. Anyway...

First of all, I'm not sure why the hell you need to group people or tell them apart that way. If a person's gender is pertinent to the discussion, I'm sure they will let you know. When you are in chat talking back and forth does it really matter if the person is butch or femme? Is it an insult for a butch to be mistaken for a femme in chat? If so, why? Can't you ask if you really need to know?

If you are talking in third person about someone and for some reason you need to let your friend know who you are talking about is butch, you can say she's a butch or he's a butch.

I seriously don't get the whole "we need to tell the butches apart from the femmes" argument for using He. I thought we were queer/lesbian, homosexuals (same sex). What am I missing?

The other explanation I have heard is what it was a way to honor a butch's masculinity. Hah well it sure as hell doesn't honor mine. I think though this starts to get to the heart of the matter. People have a hard time thinking about masculinity in female terms. It is basically considered less disrespectful to call a butch He by mistake that goes by She, than to call a male identified butch She by mistake- which is like the worst crime in the world.

Masculinity is still closely associated with male. People have a hard time knowing how to recognize and refer to female masculinity that isn't associated with or compared with male. As many of us have said, this goes well beyond pronouns. It is not just pronouns which have become defaulted to male. Male has in many ways become the standard by which butches are measured.

Finally, butches like Toughy, myself and others have been speaking up for around 10 years. If for some reason it started out as a default with no ill intent, that's one thing. But why for years and years and years afterwards was there so much resistance to change after butches have been speaking up? Why is there still resistance by some?

I really think there is plenty of evidence to show that most butches are females and consider themselves to be females and many consider themselves to be women. Why the hell wouldn't that be the case? Most butches ARE females. We were born that way. Butch femme communities are comprised of female born people and trans people. If there were going to be any defaults, logically speaking it would be female pronouns and identities.

Those who identify as male should be respected and called by the proper pronouns. But they are not the majority and not the default. They never have been.

I agree with you to a point.

Honestly, I think since the b-f/queer community has grown and does include male ID'd butches, transmen, transwomen, third-gendered folks, two-spirit folks, etc, and since this particular site isn't ONLY butch-femme, but strives to include ALL queer people...

I personally think the default pronoun should be zie/per/sie or one of the other neutral pronouns (and I mean that for femmes too). I mean, if we're striving to be an all-inclusive community, then we *should* be prepared to be more 'welcoming' of ALL queers, no? If we're going to sit and point fingers at, say, Cynthia Nixon for not being 'aware' of 'people in her community'...then, I think we, as a community *should* be more 'aware' also.

We're not a very welcoming community to A LOT of people in the transgendered/transsexed arenas...not as long as we're 'forcing' (used loosely) to pick a pronoun (out of two), not as long as we're *choosing* pronouns for other people, not as long as we're 'whatevering' people's pronouns, etc

I mean, I get it if someone is new to this site, and they default to a 'she' pronoun. What I don't get is people who have interacted here for years who still just blow it off. I mean, seriously, HOW does One interact with the same people for years and years...HOW does One MEET some of those people in person, share drinks, share whatnots and STILL screw up something like a pronoun? I mean, seriously, if you (general) screw up a co-worker's pronoun, I'll bet you only do it once...but here, it's just blown off?

And here's another thing I don't get...I'm on a number of websites. Some of them are primarily straight websites, some of them are queer websites, some of them are a mix. It's all sorts of people. I don't have to 'make a list' or 'keep a diary' to keep people's pronouns straight. It's amazing how many people I can hang out with in a public setting and not screw up a pronoun...and if I'm not sure, there's ways to navigate around it, or (holy shit) just ask. So, I'm not understanding why people's brains seem to fly out the window when they log into this site.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Well I don't think there should be a default pronoun. You make another good point Dylan. Many of us are parts of other online communities or social sites where there are a mixture of people. No one is wringing their hands over on Facebook or a gardening site because they can't remember everyone's pronouns.

[Jett]

I agree with you to a point.

Honestly, I think since the b-f/queer community has grown and does include male ID'd butches, transmen, transwomen, third-gendered folks, two-spirit folks, etc, and since this particular site isn't ONLY butch-femme, but strives to include ALL queer people...

I personally think the default pronoun should be zie/per/sie or one of the other neutral pronouns (and I mean that for femmes too). I mean, if we're striving to be an all-inclusive community, then we *should* be prepared to be more 'welcoming' of ALL queers, no? If we're going to sit and point fingers at, say, Cynthia Nixon for not being 'aware' of 'people in her community'...then, I think we, as a community *should* be more 'aware' also.

We're not a very welcoming community to A LOT of people in the transgendered/transsexed arenas...not as long as we're 'forcing' (used loosely) to pick a pronoun (out of two), not as long as we're *choosing* pronouns for other people, not as long as we're 'whatevering' people's pronouns, etc

I mean, I get it if someone is new to this site, and they default to a 'she' pronoun. What I don't get is people who have interacted here for years who still just blow it off. I mean, seriously, HOW does One interact with the same people for years and years...HOW does One MEET some of those people in person, share drinks, share whatnots and STILL screw up something like a pronoun? I mean, seriously, if you (general) screw up a co-worker's pronoun, I'll bet you only do it once...but here, it's just blown off?

And here's another thing I don't get...I'm on a number of websites. Some of them are primarily straight websites, some of them are queer websites, some of them are a mix. It's all sorts of people. I don't have to 'make a list' or 'keep a diary' to keep people's pronouns straight. It's amazing how many people I can hang out with in a public setting and not screw up a pronoun...and if I'm not sure, there's ways to navigate around it, or (holy shit) just ask. So, I'm not understanding why people's brains seem to fly out the window when they log into this site.


Dylan

I hear you're point and agree with much of it... but that said I don't think there should be any "default".

No doubt they're would be quite a few peeps who would rather not be called those pronouns either. I'm not gender neutral, and I really wouldn't be fond of peeps using pronouns like zie/ze/sie etc on me.

Not just myself I think there's a lot of people who fight hard to be recognized for various reasons, and I do believe that in the GLBTQ-XYZ community pronouns are often part of that.

Metro

ETA: Like you say, just ask... I don't think it's all that hard.
(per? I've never heard of that)

[Dylan]

I don't think there should be a catch-all pronoun for all people.

But I hear people saying, "It's difficult"

If it's difficult, I don't understand why the 'go to' is he/hy

I mean, yeah, I get that there's going to be people with whom One doesn't interact all the time, and maybe One just doesn't know what the pronoun is.

In THAT case, I think the 'default' *should* be a neutral pronoun until One finds out what pronoun Someone uses.

I didn't mean, 'default' as in "Here's the pronoun we're gonna use for all people all the time"

I just meant as, "If One doesn't know, why not pick something neutral"


Because, Yeah, I Don't Think There Should Be A Default,
Dylan

[Gayla]

Well I don't think there should be a default pronoun. You make another good point Dylan. Many of us are parts of other online communities or social sites where there are a mixture of people. No one is wringing their hands over on Facebook or a gardening site because they can't remember everyone's pronouns.

I will admit that for a brief moment, since I am so often known as hy/he in the b-f community, I had some hesitation about setting my gender as "female" on Facebook.

[Nat]

I spent most of the day reading, re-reading and gathering quotes from the earlier parts of the thread in order to best respond to people who responded to my post regarding femme expectations, etc. Unfortunately, the thread is getting away from me while I've been at it.

Now it's past my bedtime. If, by the time I finish writing a response, it is in any way appropriate to where the thread has gone by that time, I will post it. I do want to thank the people who replied to me and I do hope I have not irreparably offended anyone. I have of late avoided controversy because it stresses me out and so I have been kinda put out with myself for writing what I wrote even though it spoke to my own feelings at the time. It's just emotionally hard to handle - especially if I feel like my words have wounded or even further frustrated anybody at all whatsoever.

Before I go to sleep, I wanted to say something about the info I've gathered - which is still only from pages 1 - 14 of this thread. I am not a natural at categorization or organization, but as I gathered quotes, I tried to fit them into some sort of category. Most overlapped or could have been categorized in more than one way. I just wanted to provide a list of the categories I came up with based on the quotes. I'd include the quotes too, but I'd basically be reposting the entire first 14 pages of the thread.

I think the sheer amount of issues we are simultaneously grappling with is really pretty amazing within this one topic.

The categories I saw were:

- The Treatment of Masculine Women in the World and in this Community
- Gender Hierarchy (within the butch identity and within the world)
- Issues of Shared Space within the Butch Identity
- The Personal/Individual vs ? (Political? Community standards? Ideology?)
- Butch Pronouns
- Influence of the Dash site
- Femme Troubles and Trouble with Femmes (Troubles voiced by femmes and troubles voiced regarding femmes)

Are there others I'm missing?

[AtLast]

The "ideal" for a butch is "evolving" to a more "masculine identity" -- what. the. fuck?

The parts of me that are masculine are INNATE, biological, physiological aspects of my physical, psychological, and emotional self. They are not some manufactured or manipulated elements to produce "male".

I am evolved as a butch. Any further evolution is in terms of my own comfort level in dealing with an ignorant world that doesn't understand who or what I am.





Yes, WTF??

I am evolved as a human being. And if being butch were to mean finishing at male, I am happy to turn in my butch card and exit the B-F community and dynamic because this is just what I signed-up for. For those that a personal journey in which female-masculinity does not fit, I give my support. But this is not the default road for all butches. We are all ever changing, and have to adapt to this world and relationships.

I not only hear what someone else asks for in stating what pronoun the prefer, but, I want to offer this kind of courtesy. I want the same in return. Yes, some of this can be simply boiled down to common courtesy. Yes, that ignorant world... which sometimes includes this very community.

If the pronoun discission was really just about terms, I don't think we would have these debates at all. It goes much deeper and is related to some core structures and values we all have a stake in. As Heart pointed out, a deeply rooted devaluation of female and the feminine exists here. It goes beyond butch to femmes as well. These issues affect us all.

I don't want any kind of default pronoun just like I don't want stereotypes and hierarchies of both butches and femmes. High, low, soft, hard.... etc.... None of us are pronouns.

I am so glad to see you posting, Beau!

[Softhearted]

Derailing here:

But I'm a bit perpexled when I see the word "sie" perceived as neutral...

Must be 3 trimesters of german (years ago) that makes me go UH?

In german:

sie (without a capital s) is used either as: 3rd person singular for genus femininum (she) or for 3rd person plural for all genus (maskulinum/femininum/neutrum).

When capitalized, Sie is consider the formal form of you (the equivalent of "Vous" in french).

Done with my derail...

[Heart]

I believe "per" comes from Marge Piercy's amazing book, "Woman on the Edge of Time." It stands for "person."

[Dylan]

This is going to be a bit of an overshare, but...

From the time I can remember, I have been answering the 'are you a boy or a girl?' question. From kindergarten thru about middle school, I was called 'he/she'. High school brought 'lez' and 'man/girl'. My gender presentation elicits stares, finger-points, comments, threats, name-calling, etc EVERYDAY and EVERYWHERE I go. I no longer talk to most of thee people in my family because of my gender (going on 20 years now).

I have from my earliest memories had to sit and listen to salespeople and the like trip and stumble over a fucking pronoun with me. Whether they sir me or ma'am me at first, I then have to sit and listen to them trip over themselves and apologize and correct themselves. Theb, I have to (usually) apologize and c@oddle them, because they just 'feel so bad' about screwing it up...even when they got it right the first time.

I have been reminded multiple times a day from the time I can remember that my gender is 'difficult work' for countless lazy people.and I KNOW I share this same story with just about every butch on this website.

So really, when I'm in my own community of queer people who claim to be so very aware, I really can't take hearing, 'but but but it's just so hard'. Nor can I take the flippancy...especially from people who have NOT ever dealt with any of this.

People don't change their pronouns on a whim. This isn't brain surgery. If you think 'remembering' the people you deal with frequently is 'work' try dealing with the flippancy and having other people decide FOR you.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Not being seen for who you are is worse than not being seen at all.

[Dylan]

I would also like to add that for many many years I have also had to sit idly by while friends changed up my pronoun to better suit THEIR conversations, or so that servers (for example) didn't look at THEM weird.

If people don't think sitting there while a FRIEND changes your pronoun, so a server in a restaurant doesn't look at your friend weird isn't work...

I don't see how ANYONE can piss and moan about how 'difficult' this shit is to 'remember'. There really is no excuse besides shear uncaring, disrespect, and laziness. At least Arwen had the chutzpah to just say, 'yeah, sometimes I'm lazy' instead of making excuses and blaming the victim...or turning it into the plight of the perpetrator.

Dylan

[apretty]

sorry, it seems a little like femmes who i believe, 90% of the time, DO get it right and DO mean well and are AMAZING. period. full stop. --are getting just a tad maligned by all this lazy-talk. i mean, did more than one person mention LAZY, here? please stop painting us with your LAZY-brush.

[firie]

I spent most of the day reading, re-reading and gathering quotes from the earlier parts of the thread in order to best respond to people who responded to my post regarding femme expectations, etc. Unfortunately, the thread is getting away from me while I've been at it.

Now it's past my bedtime. If, by the time I finish writing a response, it is in any way appropriate to where the thread has gone by that time, I will post it. I do want to thank the people who replied to me and I do hope I have not irreparably offended anyone. I have of late avoided controversy because it stresses me out and so I have been kinda put out with myself for writing what I wrote even though it spoke to my own feelings at the time. It's just emotionally hard to handle - especially if I feel like my words have wounded or even further frustrated anybody at all whatsoever.

Before I go to sleep, I wanted to say something about the info I've gathered - which is still only from pages 1 - 14 of this thread. I am not a natural at categorization or organization, but as I gathered quotes, I tried to fit them into some sort of category. Most overlapped or could have been categorized in more than one way. I just wanted to provide a list of the categories I came up with based on the quotes. I'd include the quotes too, but I'd basically be reposting the entire first 14 pages of the thread.

I think the sheer amount of issues we are simultaneously grappling with is really pretty amazing within this one topic.

The categories I saw were:

- The Treatment of Masculine Women in the World and in this Community
- Gender Hierarchy (within the butch identity and within the world)
- Issues of Shared Space within the Butch Identity
- The Personal/Individual vs ? (Political? Community standards? Ideology?)
- Butch Pronouns
- Influence of the Dash site
- Femme Troubles and Trouble with Femmes (Troubles voiced by femmes and troubles voiced regarding femmes)

Are there others I'm missing?

I would add homophobia, and transphobia, and sexism.

Which kind of interlace a few of your categories and from all sides, perhaps.

I have to admit, and I apologize in advance if this post is long, but when I first started reading the thread I had a real bratty, privileged response in my head, and diminished heart's points by getting really frustrated by our community giving credence to hollywood (I hate that somehow queer actors, or any actor for that matter, all the sudden gets to be a spokesperson for us) and I also really personally hate Sex and the City, as I find it entirely sexist and, well, quite classistly vapid. It's also entirely stereotypical in its portrayal of gay men in the fashion world, but that's an entirely another thread.

So I dismissed heart's bringing Nixon's "men with boobs" comment here, because my first response was purely personal and so therefore all about me. I apologize, heart, truly I do. I didn't post this fuckery, thankfully, and if I had, would have deserved a verbal reality check.

Because after reading for days now, I have had to call myself on my own initial thinking above, and quite a bit. I think it is privileged of me to assume this is not a worthy conversation to be had, and Dylan and I have had quite a few conversations about our initial responses in saying that Cynthia Nixon is an idiot and well not worthy of listening to. Well, sure, that may be true, but it is privileged of both of us to say that butches or even further, this community, not discuss/criticize/breakdown the implication of that here.

I am perturbed at myself. I want to say I am sorry to butches, honestly, and have been thinking about a number of ways that I am so very privileged in my pronoun. And it has really hit me of late that I don't have any issues there--no one ever grapples over my pronoun, I never face anything dangerous or awkward because of it, no one confuses it, makes me pay more money for it for things like licenses, birth certificates, etc; no one requires that I go to court over it, get harassed in a bathroom over it, no one expects me to deal with them and their issues around my pronoun, nor does anyone ever expect me to bend in my pronoun over their discomfort at it. I should likely also apologize to femmes who do have issues with their pronouns. That "sorry" to you all is not because something so insignificant could alleviate all the bullshit you experience around pronouns, but just simply to say, fuck, it hit me, and well, I am going to do my best to not perpetuate any of that bullshit, because it's undue to you, and you shouldn't have to deal with it. And you shouldn't have to dismiss it, or not talk about it, or cater to those who don't get you, because well, that's perpetuating the bullshit.

Re: men with boobs. I think the ripple or tidal effect of this statement may not mean much to Cynthia Nixon at all, or her partner, but it impacted us in a way to then weave through all sorts of discussions that continuously need to be had here. I don't think we can ever talk enough about the implications these things have on our daily lives, despite what stupid or not so stupid person may have said them.

I just wanted to really thank everyone here for the epiphanies I have had reading this discussion.

[Dylan]

sorry, it seems a little like femmes who i believe, 90% of the time, DO get it right and DO mean well and are AMAZING. period. full stop. --are getting just a tad maligned by all this lazy-talk. i mean, did more than one person mention LAZY, here? please stop painting us with your LAZY-brush.

Perhaps this is your experience. It is NOT my experience that femmes get it right 90% of the time.

Never said femmes weren't amazing

You're more than welcome to come for a visit and hang out with the same folks I've hung out with and give some feedback on who does and doesn't default to male pronouns and then give a big shrug with a sighing 'whatever'.

And yeah, I still consider it 'lazy' to pick and choose someone else's pronoun out of One's OWN comfort.

Never said ALL femmes were lazy...only the ones who default, because it makes THEM more comfortable, or because they find it too much work

And don't worry, I also find butches, transmen, transwomen, cisgendered, cis-sexed, andros, and straight people who do it lazy too

And I think we all know some folks who have decided who is and isn't 'butch enough' based on their sexual preferences, haircuts, 'swaggers', and a slew of other 'butch enough markers'


Dylan

[Lynn]

Not being seen for who you are is worse than not being seen at all.

For me, this isn't the case at all. Being invisible is a state of non-existence. Not being seen for who you are is definitely alienating, as well. But, once you are *seen* at all, then the dialogue can begin, if it's important that others actually see you for who you are. On the subject of labels, I try to get it right and be aware of the other person's identity and preferences. Sometimes I get it wrong, at least in my head, because I do tend to form an opinion based on what I see and hear. It's wrong, and I do it less than I used to.

[apretty]

...
And I think we all know some folks who have decided who is and isn't 'butch enough' based on their sexual preferences, haircuts, 'swaggers', and a slew of other 'butch enough markers'


Dylan

yeah we do know those folks, probably the exact same folks.

[AtLast]

This is going to be a bit of an overshare, but...

From the time I can remember, I have been answering the 'are you a boy or a girl?' question. From kindergarten thru about middle school, I was called 'he/she'. High school brought 'lez' and 'man/girl'. My gender presentation elicits stares, finger-points, comments, threats, name-calling, etc EVERYDAY and EVERYWHERE I go. I no longer talk to most of thee people in my family because of my gender (going on 20 years now).

I have from my earliest memories had to sit and listen to salespeople and the like trip and stumble over a fucking pronoun with me. Whether they sir me or ma'am me at first, I then have to sit and listen to them trip over themselves and apologize and correct themselves. Theb, I have to (usually) apologize and c@oddle them, because they just 'feel so bad' about screwing it up...even when they got it right the first time.

I have been reminded multiple times a day from the time I can remember that my gender is 'difficult work' for countless lazy people.and I KNOW I share this same story with just about every butch on this website.

So really, when I'm in my own community of queer people who claim to be so very aware, I really can't take hearing, 'but but but it's just so hard'. Nor can I take the flippancy...especially from people who have NOT ever dealt with any of this.

People don't change their pronouns on a whim. This isn't brain surgery. If you think 'remembering' the people you deal with frequently is 'work' try dealing with the flippancy and having other people decide FOR you.


Dylan

Right on! I don't think any of us should accept the laziness factor (or simply dismissing the significance that goes far beyond a word)- not even a little bit. Not any of us. The pronoun trials in everyday life for all of us really does get to be too much. Dealing with it here is just not acceptable. Either is any default, really. If one isn’t certain, ask. And concerning this site, there is a place to state your preference, use it. And taking a look at this designation is just not difficult.

Even though I think I less internal turmoil with getting sired, being told I’m in the wrong public bathroom, etc., it gets very old as it is something we deal with daily.

[FONT="Century Gothic"]I have to add something about the femme infraction factor- it isn't true... and I certainly did not mean to insinuate by some of the posts I made to do so, I was just telling some personal stories that did involve femmes. Also, unfortunately, on the site, even with my filling in the pronoun space with she, etc., the folks that have called me him, he in posts have been femmes. I think that is just what happened, up to this point. Tomorrow, a butch could do the same thing.

Sometime ago in the midst of the butch wars on the old site, a female identified butch organization formed here in the Bay Area. At first, I thought it was great. However, the membership of both butch members and allies rested on not using terms like hy or hym. A butch I know and like very much that uses these terms wanted to join as an ally. Hy was turned away.... by butches and they refused to even use hy or hym in talking with hym during this process! Hence, I withdrew from the organization. This did more harm to butch relating to each other, I believe and was just making things worse between FIBs, MIBs, TG/IG people and we do not need more of that. This issue runs across butch & femme and really boils down to disrespect. The male-default goes to what the OP first mentioned concerning male over female and the overriding thought that butches will of course evolve into masculine and male identifications.

Please, I personally did not mean to sound like I think femmes are the only ones guilty of this. The laziness statement in a post did touch off a lot for me... and it looks like others. It was made by a femme, but could have been made by a butch as well.

[BullDog]

What has frustrated me over the years is not honest mistakes in pronoun usage- it's the male defaults (which goes well beyond pronouns) that have continued to be put on butch despite all of the butch women/female id butches speaking up. That certainly has not just been from just a few femmes, or anyone for that matter, slipping up on pronouns. It is deeply rooted in online butch femme communities.

Certainly great efforts are being made on this website to change that.

[Jett]

................
And I think we all know some folks who have decided who is and isn't 'butch enough' based on their sexual preferences, haircuts, 'swaggers', and a slew of other 'butch enough markers'


Dylan

yeah we do know those folks, probably the exact same folks.

Golly gee whiz, yeah because if it's one thing we all know butch is all haircut, ball scratching and huge baggy jeans. It's all those people who think it's something inside called um.... :thinking:... masculinity (is that what its called?) that are completely nuts.

It's nice to know there are people in the world like that who see so clearly to set things straight. Maybe more people should judge people solely by their appearance, because yeah... that's how we can really tell the most about peoples heart and personalities. (and to dispel any confusion, yes I'm being sarcastic because it's just that stupid)

I give it that most butches DO have outer butch markers, but the difference is I wear "men's" clothing because I love them... and feminine clothing don't feel right me. But the clothing are not what makes me butch. I'm still butch in my birthday suit.

Personally as far as presentation goes, I decided for myself not that long ago that things like passing, attempts to have the world see you and address you as a male person... was not what being queer and being butch was about for me. I like the gender queered-ness of having both gender "markers", and being visible in that.

There's all kinds of butches, to each their own.

Blah,
Metro

[BullDog]

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

[Martina]

huge baggy jeans

i know it's my age, but i will NOT NOT go out with someone in huge baggy jeans. And i am SOO not the fashion plate. BUT omg, those jeans!!

[betenoire]

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:


Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

[Dylan]

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


Serious Questions,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

People are talking about this thread in other threads. I am respecting the space. I don't care what you think of me. I am being very direct. If you choose to see it as passive aggressive- what the fuck ever.

[betenoire]

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.

People are talking about this thread in other threads. I am respecting the space. I don't care what you think of me. I am being very direct. If you choose to see it as passive aggressive- what the fuck ever.

Thank you for respecting my right to think you're passive aggressive. I'm gonna go ahead and continue to do that.

[BullDog]

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.



Thank you for respecting my right to think you're passive aggressive. I'm gonna go ahead and continue to do that.

How come you are not cranky about the femmes discussing this thread in the femme thread?

Edit: calling a male butch she does deal with pronouns. That subject has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread.

[Dylan]

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.



Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.

I don't know about the Male ID/she commentary, but I DO know that some of the people who posted in here about pronouns are now in that thread posting about how they didn't like the answers they got when they posted over here in this thread. That looks pretty P/A, no? I mean, it looks pretty P/A to me.

So...what? It's ok to join into a conversation in one thread, and drag it into another thread if you don't like the answer in the first thread, but if someone brings it up in the original thread, they're the asshole?

I like ya' and all, but honestly, it sounds like a double bind to me. We allllllllllllllll know if a butch busts up a femme thread, there's going to be hell to pay.

The pronoun convo started over here. Pissing and moaning in another thread, cuz you didn't like the answer you got over here is P/A.


Keepin' It Real,
Dylan

[apretty]

the forum needs a butt-zone.

[betenoire]

I like ya' and all, but honestly, it sounds like a double bind to me. We allllllllllllllll know if a butch busts up a femme thread, there's going to be hell to pay.


Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

[BullDog]

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

Wow, can't see the forest for the trees. The assumptions behind the pronouns has everything to do with it. Why would She be emasculating if females are masculine too? It's definitely disrespecting a person's pronoun, but why emasculating? I believe that would be a question for male identified people.

It's past my bed time. Nitey night all.

[Dylan]

Not hell to pay from me, though. If a bunch of Femmes, or even if it's just me, are saying a bunch of really stupid shit in the "Femme Zone" I don't give a rats ass the gender of the person who calls out the stupidity. It's a public forum, no gender check at the door.

Aaaaaand, silly. I know that the pronoun talk started in this thread, I started it the pronoun talk. Funny, Bulldog wasn't interested in talking pronouns when I was the only person talking about them. She was far too busy screaming that pronouns was not the original intent of this thread and trying to get me to shut up.

I don't really know what thread people are crying about this thread in, to be honest. If it's there, I've not seen it. I am usually too busy flirting with Snow and apretty for all of that.

You gotta admit it's pretty asinine to insinuate that there is something wrong with anybody Male-ID'd feeling emasculated by being called "she", though. What an asinine assertion!

But But But, Potty...not everyone's as EZ goin' as you. And butches have already been accused of tossing their privilege around in this thread right here for voicing their upset about the pronoun issue. So, I just want to make sure I got it right...bear with me...voice your upset that others are picking your pronoun for you, get accused of tossing privilege around (even if you're female/woman). Waltz into a thread where some folks decided to drag the conversation (so they didn't have to hear anymore about how their excuses are offensive), and get accused of tossing privilege around (and trust me...after many years on these sites, I've played my fair share of these games and been told many many times, "It's not all about you, Dylan...femmes are talking...this is a femme thread")

The male ID'd butch being she'd incident you speak of would depend on context and the individual, no? (honestly, I have no idea which conversation this is)


Dylan

[AtLast]

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


Serious Questions,
Dylan

I'm confused. It seems that there is a flow between both femme Zone & Butch Zone threads. Thinking that BDSM specific and Trans Zones have threads in which everyone is invited to ask questions or get info. Right?

If someone comes into a thread that has a specific slant to it and is not that slant.... and just wants to mess with people, that's one thing. I certainly have taken in a lot with comments by femme's in this thread and MIB/Trans/IG folks. The thread did begin with a FIB slant, but, all of the differing thoughts from people no matter their ID has certainly been positive as far as I am concerned. Sure, some rough bumps, but, I think this has been a good conversation overall and respectful of some sensitive stuff. hell, i've benn smacked around on threads before. And sometimes deserved just that.

Then again, I am a peace-maker type... role since birth! Yikes, my Mom used to tell me I should be in work in some diplomatic capacity.... Mamma Mia!

Am I not understanding what is going on? Sorry, on pain meds.

[Nat]

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

Yesterday I was totally thinking I was misreading the request for respect as a request for deference, and I was thinking that the femme-blaming was something I was somehow misreading and I was all prepared to take all the blame for having thoughts like this. I had my self-flagellation set all ready.

But you know what? I do think it's an issue worth examining. I'm not the only femme (after all) who has felt that there is a difference in tone regarding attitudes toward femmes within these conversations and I think this post is an example of that.

The other femme who spoke to this in the other thread clearly stated that she agreed it's important to use the right pronouns. I also try my best to use the right pronouns unless there is no way of knowing (in which case I default to "she") or in the case that using the correct pronoun would closet (and therefore negate) me (which would only happen in relationships). The conversation of, "does it seem like femmes are being spoken of and about in a disrespectful way in conversations regarding butch pronouns, gender and identity?" is not the same conversation as, "do you think it's okay for butches to ask for respectful use of correct pronouns?"

It has been stated that femmes mess up more than butches - and I'm even willing to believe that (though I would soooo love a way to quantify this). I also think some of the complaints about femmes have been from a respectful place. I do not think this post is from a respectful place and I don't think it is the lone post in this thread of the same ilk.

[JustJo]

Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.



Just an FYI...butches have come over and posted in the femme continuum thread (where some of this threads postings are being discussed). They've been (rather nicely) asked to stay on the topic, but no one is asking them to exit or giving them an earful that I can see.

[Heart]

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good. :)

[BullDog]

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good. :)

Heart, I do agree with you that fixating on pronouns does avoid the deeper issues. However, calling butches He/Hy as a default is a symptom of the underlying issues in my opinion. Butches are still be equated to or compared to male. To me it doesn't feel privileged to assert that I am She. Apparently people think being She'd emasculates a male identified person.

I have in my sig- She is not just a pronoun choice. Yes, it is the larger issues.

[Jett]

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

If I'm not mistaken this thread is actually where all conversations being referred to in other threads originated. So why is it "super obnoxious" to draw attention here about what's being said there about said about this thread?

Is it "super obnoxious" to have brought shit from here over there? Is that passive aggressive? Have you called that out?

I mean truth, I personally don't really care that it was brought to another thread... I see that as cross posting.

But I do know that had Bull gone over there (or Dylan or me etc.) and complained (even about the "bring shit over there") it probably would have been portrayed (by a few not ALL) "the men folk" trying to control "the women folk"... which I find to be pretty insulting and painting butches and trans as stupid self-important knuckle dragging clods.

Not that I haven't seen that on occasion but I've seen that and more from all identities *shrugs*

One last thing, a probably the most important reason I'm even replying to your post. I met Bulldog for the first time last week at a party... and Bull actually kept cracking me up, one of the reasons? She was smiling and laughing so damn much... made me wanna laugh too.

Wasn't like one of those "not happy unless unhappy" people at all.

Done derailing, be great to see this convo get back on track.
Metro

[BullDog]

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

:bingo:

[Jett]

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

:bingo:

Oml... I'd definitely bring my earplugs... just in case you won... ;)

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have am on of the femme's who pointed out, politely what I have seen and have witnessed when it came down to femme's using pro nouns against butches and even trans people and anyone else that falls under this spectrum.

I did not say ALL femme's do it, just happens to be that sometimes we tend to be a lil more on the vicious side (not all) and for some unknown reason, gender is attacked.

I don't know why this is, or why it is done, but it's clearly archived in sites we all belong to that it's calculated, mean and not done with good intent..

I also believe that we can make mistakes, and have, and we (not all) do our best to correct ourselves... I also feel and this is me coming from Snow space, that this thread has sparked, a lot of threads and conversations, be they offline, and online about gender, respect, dynamics, and boundaries. The Planet is new, and I *get* we are all sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over, but as I see it and I may be wrong, we are educating new people coming in, and even if we only reach one just one person, I think the long hours spent on posting, the frustrations, and the hard topics and discussions are worth having....

Thank you all for your patience for giving a damn,

[SassyLeo]

I have am on of the femme's who pointed out, politely what I have seen and have witnessed when it came down to femme's using pro nouns against butches and even trans people and anyone else that falls under this spectrum.

I did not say ALL femme's do it, just happens to be that sometimes we tend to be a lil more on the vicious side (not all) and for some unknown reason, gender is attacked.

I don't know why this is, or why it is done, but it's clearly archived in sites we all belong to that it's calculated, mean and not done with good intent..

I also believe that we can make mistakes, and have, and we (not all) do our best to correct ourselves... I also feel and this is me coming from Snow space, that this thread has sparked, a lot of threads and conversations, be they offline, and online about gender, respect, dynamics, and boundaries. The Planet is new, and I *get* we are all sick and tired of saying the same thing over and over, but as I see it and I may be wrong, we are educating new people coming in, and even if we only reach one just one person, I think the long hours spent on posting, the frustrations, and the hard topics and discussions are worth having....
Thank you all for your patience for giving a damn,

Thank you Snowy...this is what I have been saying in all the threads (you too!) :reader: :balloon:

[BullDog]

Snowy thank you. Some of these issues I've been talking about online for 10 years. I do get frustrated at times when it seems we've made little ground or had a long discussion in a thread and lots of people don't seem to understand what the hell we are even talking about.

Time for me to go chill and do my work.

[SuperFemme]

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

[BullDog]

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

[SuperFemme]

emasculate: weaken somebody or something: to deprive somebody or something of effectiveness, spirit, or force

eta: it can also mean to castrate, which is not the intent with which I used it.

[Jett]

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro

[Rufusboi]

What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

Used as a verb, emasculate means to castrate or weaken or deprive of strength. Used as an adjective it means deprived of strength or vigor. Except in the one noun form the word can be used in connection with male/female or masculine/feminine. I believe this word is often misused to mean undermining masculinity in some way or form or making a person feel not masculine enough. I think this is an incorrect use of the word. I think in its present day use and connotations, the word emasculate is also misogynistic. Its similar to calling someone a "girl" or a "pansy" or a "fairy" or "prissy" or a "pussy" all words used to make men feel less than men (hence women, hence less than, inferior, or substandard). Once men and women are truly perceived as equals perhaps the whole need for gendered pronouns will disappear altogether and perhaps we can have just one pronoun for everyone. The gendering of language takes us back to the binaries and the binaries always place the feminized term at the bottom as somehow weaker and less than.

So for example, If I expressed my desire to be refered to with the male pronounn he, and someone insisted on using the female pronoun she, I would think of them as rude and disrespectful , but I would not feel emasculated. And vice versa. If I prefer the female pronoun she but someone insisted on using he, I would also not feel emasculated.

Rufus

[Medusa]

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

[SuperFemme]

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

[Rufusboi]

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

Yes, I would find a thread like this interesting. Language controls our reality and perceptions and hence controls us. Once we know how language works we are in a better position to unpack it and all the gendering that undermines us as men, women, trans, queer, gay straight and on and on

Rufus

[Rufusboi]

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

I refuse to give a pronoun that much power over me.

Rufus

[The_Lady_Snow]

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.


YES!!!

This would be very helpful for me, here is why not that you asked..

English is my second language, so I hear and read everyone in a spanish filter then I have to translate, add the fucking dyslexia and I wanna scream sometimes.

Thank you...:blink:

[The_Lady_Snow]

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

See I too have used this word to describe what you are saying, and getting the info from the horses mouth made it true so now I am fucking confused.:spider:

[SuperFemme]

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

God yes!

I refuse to give a pronoun that much power over me.

Rufus

Good for you!

See I too have used this word to describe what you are saying, and getting the info from the horses mouth made it true so now I am fucking confused.:spider:

Right? But if it is the wrong word, I shall not use it again. I didn't know that was how it was being interpreted at all. Again, my apologies.

[Jett]

Deleting... because frankly... it's tired, lol.

[SuperFemme]

In other words... using "she" as if an effective means to lessen someones stature and strength- weakening of their character (emasculation)...


Isn't it if that is not how they identify? I *get it*. I'll not use the word again. Let's move along, ok?

[BullDog]

I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro

Yes this is how I see it.

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

I can see this as well. I think it was Cyclopea who said earlier that it felt like we were being neutered when called He by default and I agreed with her. That's kind of the same thing you are saying, only it's using a different word.

I do object to seeing masculine used in ways to signify non-female or non-woman. I don't care for masculine-identified because it seems to signify non-female, non-woman. At the same time, there are big limitations in language for people to use to describe themselves in non-binary terms.

I am really not trying to be picky, but She can be just as masculine as He in my opinion.

Adele, I really didn't take this as coming from you personally. Other people were talking about that it and people use emasculate and feminize as terms a lot when referring to butch, but thank you. You are always very considerate.

[Jett]

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

Sounds interesting... yep.

[Jett]

Isn't it if that is not how they identify? I *get it*. I'll not use the word again. Let's move along, ok?

Ah yeah... I had already deleted that post to "move along".

And you can use the word if you want, that's not up to me... I was just responding to your bringing it up and asking questions specifically about it and giving my perspective (and also- I was replying to Rufusboi)

[SuperFemme]

I can see this as well. I think it was Cyclopedea who said earlier that it felt like we were being neutered when called He by default and I agreed with her. That's kind of the same thing you are saying, only it's not using a different word.

I do object to seeing masculine used in ways to signify non-female or non-woman. I don't care for masculine-identified because it seems to signify non-female, non-woman. At the same time, there are big limitations in language for people to use to describe themselves in non-binary terms.

I am really not trying to be picky, but She can be just as masculine as He in my opinion.

Adele, I really didn't take this as coming from you personally. Other people were talking about that it and people use emasculate and feminize as terms a lot when referring to butch, but thank you. You are always very considerate.

I agree that She can be just as masculine. Maybe one day language will catch up to reality? I sure hope so. A girl can only stick her foot in her mouth so many times without getting crud mouth.

[JustJo]

I've been reading this thread all along...learning alot, questioning alot...

For me, the crux of the whole matter is intentionality. If I make an honest mistake in pronoun use, or even with someone's name, and apologize and correct, then I think most folks are okay with that. Heck, I get "he'd" in my work life....my name is Jo and I have a deep voice, and most of my co-workers have never seen me since I work virtually. Many have thought they were meeting "Joe" at our annual company meeting (which has led to some pretty funny conversations btw...). I laugh it off because, frankly, I don't care. It's a misunderstanding, nothing more.

I'm astounded to read about some of the nastiness though....telling femmes that they're acting "too butch", intentionally calling an ex by the opposite pronoun or a given name to purposefully disrespect them. The issue, for me anyway, isn't whether I accidentally call someone "hy" that uses "she" or vice versa. The issue is if we are using gender, or sexual preferences, as a way to beat each other over the head out of sheer nastiness.

Again, just for me...this sounds like middle-school bullying whereby the vicious kids spotted and zeroed in on the sore spot in order to victimize and belittle ....the short one, the fat one, the nerdy one, the "fill in the blank" one. For me, that's different from misogyny...that's just plain mean.

[Dylan]

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good. :)

It's a *privilege* to expect someone to use the correct pronoun? Really? And what kind of privilege is it when women expect to be seen as women?

Because I know you can't be talking about transsexed folks here *demanding* that people use the correct pronoun. Because it's actually quite cis-sexed privileged for people to pick and choose transfolks' pronouns as they see fit.

Lisa Haney and Julia Serano (transfeminists) have broken that down a number of times.

I would also argue that it's cis-gendered privileged for others to pick and choose the pronoun of gender non-conforming folks.

It's funny to me when those who sit in the *privilege* of NEVER having their pronouns screwed up start whipping out the "It's so privileged for you to *demand* I get your pronoun correct"...ESPECIALLY coming from someone who gets so upset by Cynthia Nixon's Men With Boobs comment. I don't understand how you sit and type with one hand that the comment, "A man with boobs" is so sexist, and everything else...yet you then say, it's privileged to expect people not to default to he for butches with the other hand. Because I've seen you type a million times that it's sexist to default to he for butches. So, which is it? Are butches the oppressed in a sexist and gender-normative world, or are they The Privileged?

Honestly, this sounds like a defensive tactic, because you feel that femmes are being unduly 'attacked' when butches (and even some femmes in this thread) point out that they see this behavior more from femmes (the gender normative group) than they do butches.

It's NOT a privilege to expect people to get your pronoun right. It's NOT a privilege to be offended when people you've corrected umpteen times just sit and 'sigh' and shrug it off and whatever you when they PURPOSELY use whatever pronoun makes THEM comfortable as a means to erase you.


Dylan

[Dylan]

And here's something else.

No one is *attacking* femmes

No one is putting *more burden* on femmes to remember something

Personally, I see this behavior MORE from femmes than I do butches. Other butches have stated the same thing. Some femmes have stated the same thing.

In a previous post, I mentioned a party and FIB who kept referring to MIB butches as 'she'. The FIB butch was constantly referred to as 'he'. When she stated it was disrespectful to FIBs to use 'he', and that it didn't create a 'welcoming' atmosphere for FIBs, she was told not to come back...that the party was indeed 'welcoming' to all. Another FIB was told the same thing when she complained about it. Subsequent FIB butches who brought up the same thing were also not 'welcomed' back, and they were in fact, mocked for saying it wasn't welcoming to FIBs. So, FIBs are expected to conform or be excommunicated from the group? NOT ONLY are they expected to be mindful of MIB's pronouns, they're also expected to accept being he'd. If they don't conform, they're not welcome to return?

And yet, somehow, we're being told 'femmes are being punished more than butches who 'screw up'...really? Because butches who don't comply aren't welcome in the (so called) 'community'.

I've watched for many years as new butches who started as she end up becoming he...because they know if they don't comply, they'll be ousted from the group.

Saying anything about this issue brings either a 'sigh and a shrug with a giggle and a whatever', or a 'don't come back'.

And to be 100% clear, I, personally, am NOT talking about honest mistakes. I, personally, am talking about PURPOSEFUL, INTENTIONAL misassignment of pronouns. I have a feeling that's what other butches are talking about also. If someone new 'she's' me, I'm likely to correct them, and move on. If they continue to do it, we're gonna have some words. If they switch up my pronoun depending on what conversation they're having, because they either do or don't want to be outed, or whatever other lame excuse they come up with, we're not going to be speaking anymore.


Dylan

[Dylan]

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.


I wouldn't find it necessarily emasculating

I would find it intentionally transphobic


Not That You Asked Me, But That's The Word I Would Use,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

I wouldn't find it necessarily emasculating

I would find it intentionally transphobic


Not That You Asked Me, But That's The Word I Would Use,
Dylan

What would you find it as if the person in question was not trans?

[BullDog]

I wouldn't find it necessarily emasculating

I would find it intentionally transphobic


Not That You Asked Me, But That's The Word I Would Use,
Dylan

Yeah, I think the underlying issues around intentionally using the incorrect pronouns are misogyny and/or transphobia.

Since I go by she no one can "she me," but I have had people who were unhappy with me talk about how you're not really butch, you don't know how to repair things, you're too sensitive blah blah that' s not butch. When they were happy with me I was oh so butch, such a stud, etc.

I also feel it is misogynistic to have the default for butch be He/Hy. I think it's saying women really can't be butches. It's also something that many of us who were online on another website found as the cultural norm and sometimes old habits are hard to break, However it doesn't mean we can't change or have to put up with them just because they are deeply entrenched.

[Dylan]

What would you find it as if the person in question was not trans?

Personally, and this is just me me me, I find it transgendered phobic. And I find it so, because we live in a world in which ANYONE who steps outside of the gender conformity is met with harsh consequences. This is why I personally, make a huge distinction between transgender and transsexed. ANYONE stepping out of 'this is what girls do, and this is what boys do" is met with name calling (including 'he-she'), threats, pokes, jabs, and a 'shoving' back into conformity through a number of different routes...including intentional misuse of pronouns.

"Well, if you want to look/act like a man, I'm going to treat you like a man"

"If you want to be a man so bad..."

What would YOU call it if I continually and purposefully called you, "he"?


Dylan

[betenoire]

I find it unfortunate that we've spiraled into a discussion of what word SuperFemme -should- have used, when it's clear and established that her intent/meaning was spot-on. It sounds like semantics to me.

We all already know what she meant, as she's had to explain herself over and over again. Why not just go ahead and accept her original comment AS SHE MEANT IT and move on? I think it's just so shitty that she's been made to feel as though she should apologise because the interpretation of a word that she had is different from that of (some) other people.

[Heart]

It's a *privilege* to expect someone to use the correct pronoun? Really? And what kind of privilege is it when women expect to be seen as women?

Because I know you can't be talking about transsexed folks here *demanding* that people use the correct pronoun. Because it's actually quite cis-sexed privileged for people to pick and choose transfolks' pronouns as they see fit.

Lisa Haney and Julia Serano (transfeminists) have broken that down a number of times.

I would also argue that it's cis-gendered privileged for others to pick and choose the pronoun of gender non-conforming folks.

It's funny to me when those who sit in the *privilege* of NEVER having their pronouns screwed up start whipping out the "It's so privileged for you to *demand* I get your pronoun correct"...ESPECIALLY coming from someone who gets so upset by Cynthia Nixon's Men With Boobs comment. I don't understand how you sit and type with one hand that the comment, "A man with boobs" is so sexist, and everything else...yet you then say, it's privileged to expect people not to default to he for butches with the other hand. Because I've seen you type a million times that it's sexist to default to he for butches. So, which is it? Are butches the oppressed in a sexist and gender-normative world, or are they The Privileged?

Honestly, this sounds like a defensive tactic, because you feel that femmes are being unduly 'attacked' when butches (and even some femmes in this thread) point out that they see this behavior more from femmes (the gender normative group) than they do butches.

It's NOT a privilege to expect people to get your pronoun right. It's NOT a privilege to be offended when people you've corrected umpteen times just sit and 'sigh' and shrug it off and whatever you when they PURPOSELY use whatever pronoun makes THEM comfortable as a means to erase you.


Dylan

My context is much MUCH broader than you are aware of Dylan, and has zip to do with femmes being attacked. In much of the world, the very idea of getting to assert one's gender is so beyond the pale that its unthinkable. Asserting one's sexuality, orientation, etc can result in imprisonment, rape, or death. So yes, the fact that we are having any kind of discussion about asserting our preferred gender pronouns is a privilege.

And by-the-way, there are femmes that prefer pronouns other than "she" and their assertion is also privileged. Every single one of us here, femme, butch, trans, male, female, has the pronoun-assertion privilege that I am referring to. This exists alongside the ongoing issues of sexism and misogyny that also get played out here (and have, I believe, a particular impact on butch women). It's not an either/or thing.

[Beau]

There are so many issues underlying the pronoun debate, which are uncomfortable, possibly even painful for some, to discuss.

We can snipe at each other all day, but that's just another form of avoidance. If many of you, like me, are sick of this circular conversation and truly still wish to help educate and enlighten both new and old members, why not deal with that subtext present in the improper, intentional use of pronouns?

Otherwise, this is a clusterfuck without end, but -- more importantly -- it's a completely wasted effort and will just re-emerge in another form on this forum.

Dylan makes very valid points about intentional vs. accidental pronoun reference. So, my question is -- why does that occur?

My answer: internalized homophobia

Bulldog makes very valid points about the use of "she" needing to be viewed on equal footing with "he" if we're truly going to show respect for all flavors/identities (butch, trans, etc.). So, my question is -- why isn't it viewed equally?

My answer: internalized homophobia

Many on this thread have spoken to the pressures they feel to conform to a male ID in order to maintain public social status as "butch enough". So, my question is -- why does there even need to be a comparison between butches?

My answer: internalized homophobia [makes us defer to patriarchal standards]

What I'm getting at is, I hope, rather blatant. If we cannot accept ourselves as gay, queer, lesbian, transgendered, or transsexed, how will the larger society ever come to accept us as equals? Short answer: they won't, and we help them to never have to when we perpetuate these mindsets and issues within our own communities.

Most butches have horror stories of nonacceptance in various settings -- both straight and gay. Yes, it smacks of misogyny because the rules in patriarchal society are firmly established and catered to, but for us to swallow that societal bullshit and regurgitate it in the form of codes of conduct, social mores, and behavioral values among ourselves merely displays internalized homophobia.

Please consider discussing that in reference to Cynthia Nixon's thoughtless remark, pronoun preference and reference, and hierarchies within our community that manifest as male over female. That, for me -- and I hope for many others -- would be most useful. Perhaps it might even lead to real change.

I hope it will.

thanks in advance,
Beau

[Dylan]

My answer: internalized homophobia

Beau

I agree 100% that it's a matter of internalized homophobia (except in the cases of transfolks when it's a blatant form of transphobia)


Dylan

[AtLast]

I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro


Absolutely!

The term emasculate is just one more in the never ending linguistic bashing of women. The patriarchy at its male privileged, better-than female finest!

Feminine and female is not weak or ineffective, and as the center of life, thus of spirit, and a powerful force!

For me, butch as it stems from the feminine is a very unique form of masculinity. It is not the same as what people coming into this world male are socialized as.

Yes, this a personal take. And no, it is not anti-male or masculine. Just how I put together female-masculinity as a butch.

Feminization has long been viewed in our culture as negative. Think about how the term effeminate is used most often.

Yes, I love Dusa's idea about a threat concerning language!! sometimes I feel like the limitations of the English language gets us into so many problems with these kinds of discussions. Then there is how we have been socialized as females/women.... and it makes me crazy to see so much of the negative language and socialization we have endured get integrated into the B-F dynamic.

[AtLast]

Yesterday I was totally thinking I was misreading the request for respect as a request for deference, and I was thinking that the femme-blaming was something I was somehow misreading and I was all prepared to take all the blame for having thoughts like this. I had my self-flagellation set all ready.

But you know what? I do think it's an issue worth examining. I'm not the only femme (after all) who has felt that there is a difference in tone regarding attitudes toward femmes within these conversations and I think this post is an example of that.

The other femme who spoke to this in the other thread clearly stated that she agreed it's important to use the right pronouns. I also try my best to use the right pronouns unless there is no way of knowing (in which case I default to "she") or in the case that using the correct pronoun would closet (and therefore negate) me (which would only happen in relationships). The conversation of, "does it seem like femmes are being spoken of and about in a disrespectful way in conversations regarding butch pronouns, gender and identity?" is not the same conversation as, "do you think it's okay for butches to ask for respectful use of correct pronouns?"
It has been stated that femmes mess up more than butches - and I'm even willing to believe that (though I would soooo love a way to quantify this). I also think some of the complaints about femmes have been from a respectful place. I do not think this post is from a respectful place and I don't think it is the lone post in this thread of the same ilk.



No it isn't the same conversation at all (in red, above). I can't speak for anyone else in terms of the posts, but, there is something going on here. I know I came back to the thread and posted my last post due to my tummy knotting some about blame or perceived blame of femmes concerning use of pronouns. That is the reason I posted about the butch organization as an example of disrespect of identifications even though it was about hy and hym. To me, it's about pronouns, not which ones.

I have had other butches call me he, etc., outside of the site. I correct them, too. Sometimes I get weird looks as if I am demoting myself! I can't tell you how many times I have gotten, but, you are so masculine. WTF??? yes, and its feminine-masculinity that I am very proud of.

I have to say that as much as I love the B-F dynamic and have met some great people here (and on the old site), I often feel put down for being female-identified. But it goes beyond butch- I have found this community to just be one of the most anti-woman/female communities and sexist I have ever been acquainted with. I am speaking more to off-line situations as I have found online members that are not like this and obviously we gravitate toward each other- both butches & femmes. This hurts a lot because I am butch and I am not trans, either. I don't fit in the lesbian community really. I used to until I accepted and gained comfort with my butch identity far later than most). Although, I do know a group within tthe lesbian community I am around that is very accepting of my being a butch and preferring femmes overall (the person's character is what really counts with me in terms of romantic relationships and it seems like femmes come in every type!). this is within our queer dance community here in the Bay Area.

So, yes, this is a conversation to have, I think because you are not the only femme contributing here that has felt something is amiss. That is reason enough! Besides, I'll learn something, I always do and the fact of the matter is that I have not lived my entire life as a butch.... or a lesbian. And it seems like its a subject that can be covered by all butches and our Trans/IG members.

So, I say put the question(s) right on out there!

PS- I know Bully and I just don’t believe she meant those statements from a place of negativity- but she will have to answer for herself.

[BullDog]

Absolutely!

The term emasculate is just one more in the never ending linguistic bashing of women. The patriarchy at its male privileged, better-than female finest!

Feminine and female is not weak or ineffective, and as the center of life, thus of spirit, and a powerful force!

For me, butch as it stems from the feminine is a very unique form of masculinity. It is not the same as what people coming into this world male are socialized as.

Yes, this a personal take. And no, it is not anti-male or masculine. Just how I put together female-masculinity as a butch.

Feminization has long been viewed in our culture as negative. Think about how the term effeminate is used most often.

Yes, I love Dusa's idea about a threat concerning language!! sometimes I feel like the limitations of the English language gets us into so many problems with these kinds of discussions. Then there is how we have been socialized as females/women.... and it makes me crazy to see so much of the negative language and socialization we have endured get integrated into the B-F dynamic.

Yes, I agree with this post and your other one AtLast. Femininity is viewed as negative.

I think it is very important to examine the language, and underlying attitudes, that is used for describing butches and women overall. No one here is placing blame on any one particular group of people (i.e. femmes) or something one particular person said.

There is this subtle, and many times not so subtle message, within butch femme communities that if you are male identified or you are butch (no matter how you identify) that the worse thing in the world is to be female and a woman. That and internalized homophobia is where we got to the male defaults in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with male identified butches at all.

Why do people use terms like emasculate and feminize (which I hear coming from butches and trans men just as much as femmes) when male identified butches and trans men's pronouns, gender or sexual boundaries are not respected? Your identity and boundaries are not being respected for who you are, but it's not a crime to be a woman. It's transphobia and misogyny at work and just plain disrespect to you as a person. I'd like more male identified people and others when they see these forms of behavior call that out instead of getting insulted that people are trying to emasculate them or feminize them (treat them like a "woman").

How can someone emasculate or feminize someone by how they refer to them or how someone is touched? I don't believe the way someone refers to you or touches you "feminizes" or "masculinizes" (we only hear about "feminizes") you. Your femininity and masculinity is yours. You own it.

I am a stone butch and my boundaries and sexual preferences have absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." When one particular ex of mine (who isn't on this website or last website) tried to say I wasn't butch when she was mad I told her flat out- I am butch and you can't take that away from me.

There is lots and lots of anti-woman language and attitudes in our culture. Unfortunately it is very evident in butch femme culture as well. Everyone's gender, pronouns and sexuality should be respected, but it is not a horrible thing to be a woman and butch women embrace their masculinity just as male identified butches do.

[AtLast]

Yes, I agree with this post and your other one AtLast. Femininity is viewed as negative.

I think it is very important to examine the language, and underlying attitudes, that is used for describing butches and women overall. No one here is placing blame on any one particular group of people (i.e. femmes) or something one particular person said.

There is this subtle, and many times not so subtle message, within butch femme communities that if you are male identified or you are butch (no matter how you identify) that the worse thing in the world is to be female and a woman. That and internalized homophobia is where we got to the male defaults in the first place. It actually has nothing to do with male identified butches at all.

Why do people use terms like emasculate and feminize (which I hear coming from butches and trans men just as much as femmes) when male identified butches and trans men's pronouns, gender or sexual boundaries are not respected? Your identity and boundaries are not being respected for who you are, but it's not a crime to be a woman. It's transphobia and misogyny at work and just plain disrespect to you as a person. I'd like more male identified people and others when they see these forms of behavior call that out instead of getting insulted that people are trying to emasculate them or feminize them (treat them like a "woman").

How can someone emasculate or feminize someone by how they refer to them or how someone is touched? I don't believe the way someone refers to you or touches you "feminizes" or "masculinizes" (we only hear about "feminizes") you. Your femininity and masculinity is yours. You own it.

I am a stone butch and my boundaries and sexual preferences have absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to be "feminized." When one particular ex of mine (who isn't on this website or last website) tried to say I wasn't butch when she was mad I told her flat out- I am butch and you can't take that away from me.

There is lots and lots of anti-woman language and attitudes in our culture. Unfortunately it is very evident in butch femme culture as well. Everyone's gender, pronouns and sexuality should be respected, but it is not a horrible thing to be a woman and butch women embrace their masculinity just as male identified butches do.



Yes, and the main reason for my having to apply so much of my spiritual beliefs to butch identity actually stems from this as well as the limitations of the English language. Yikes, and my very broken Italian and spanish does not help either! Two-Spirit, some Pagan ideology as well as Jungian psychology, along with Eastern philosophies seem to give me better balance personally as a butch. I wish I had talent with languages, as I believe this would help.

Nope... no one can take butch identity from anyone or femme identity Just wish we would leave the patriarchal men/male/masculine as supreme behind... sort of like the mix, myself and prefer equity in all things. Just what fits for me.

[redrose]

i like lookin' at butch's boobs and i am very much amazed on the way they hide it, just sayin' ... (f)

[Rockinonahigh]

Weather im called him,hy or she dosent make a bit of diffrents to me,I know who I am and the direction im going.Now at work these last eight months many folks have slowly began to call me Mrs.Mike insted of Mrs.Mary,at first they had no idea what to call me so I just went with the flow cause I figured it would be a bit of a stretch to get the temanology down for so many of them as they are way older and some very confused.Some of my co workers didnt want to cause a rift but I took the same approach and its working out ok even tho i have had a couple who really finaly pushed the wrong button and got burned for it..one got reported the other got told off...not on company propeprty but just the same I made my point.Even tho now and again it gets a bit sticky I just go with the folw somemore.The way I see it is its not giveing in to the establishment,its dealing with life as it comes.My friend,family and he ppl who I feel are important to me know the way to the world I live in and how it really is away from work and are ok with it.The only place I have problems is at the pool hall,thete is a certan section of ppl who will get get my dander up a bit whats said about how I express my gender choices and expression.These I am very carefull about cause they are the one who will, at some point become a bigger problem.