Men with boobs.

[Heart]

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.

[Gemme]

On the flip side, isn't it nice that someone so in the Hollywood scene is able to not only see but publicly acknowledge (and one would hope, appreciate) her partner's masculinity?

[Medusa]

Wow Heart, where did she do this? Im trying to Google but it isnt cooperating :tease:

[BullDog]

Short man with boobs? That sure as hell wouldn't be acknowledging my masculinity. Nixon referred to her financee as her so she doesn't appear to identity as man or male. WTF?

[Deborah]

Wow Heart, where did she do this? Im trying to Google but it isnt cooperating :tease:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/10/cynthia-nixon-describes-h_n_570645.html

here it is...hope you can open it.

[BullDog]

Wow Heart, where did she do this? Im trying to Google but it isnt cooperating :tease:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/10/cynthia-nixon-describes-h_n_570645.html

[Heart]

Gemme - but do you see my point? Why does her masculinity make her a man? Why not a masculine woman? Why do we persist in assuming that masculinity belongs to men? This is how male gets privileged over female constantly in queer communities.

Heart

[Medusa]

Im totally embarrassed now.

I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots"

:blink:

[Jett]

You know I don't know what their relationship is like, but, it personally skivs me big time when people just throw butch and man together.

"date a butch? why not just date a man?"

"butches just want to be men"

"butches are just trying to emulate men"

"butches are men in female bodies"

It's missing and completely dismissing the most important part of the whole... qualities and traits not attributable to men that is the actual BIG difference between a butch and a man... and that's more than boobs.

I'd be really bothered by any statements like that from anyone let alone my gf.

IMO,
Metropolis

[Deborah]

Im totally embarrassed now.

I was Googling "Cynthia Nixon man with boots"

:blink:


hahaha....he may wear boots also.

[Heart]

Dusa - it was in the NY Daily News as well. Nixon called her partner a butch, but described her as basically a "short man with boobs." Of course you can imagine the comments that follow, including those that ask, "why not just be with a real man?" This is one of the most heart-rending things to me -- that butch women aren't seen as "real" women or as "real" men. They are erased thru our own narrow and limited vision.

[Queerasfck]

As we all know how someone id's varies greatly. Maybe her partner wants that as her id, who knows? Maybe Nixon was just trying to be funny. The thing is just because someone is in the public eye it doesn't make them the spokesperson for all queers, but yet at the same time it does draw a lot of attention to us. For good or bad.

[Linus]

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.


I think the more important question is: does it bother her butch? For all we know, this is a term of endearment between them.

[Heart]

Actually Linus, I don't think that's the most important question. I don't think each and every personal story and id necessarily takes precidence over cultural expressions of sexism, misogyny, and homophobia towards butch women. And that's how this reads to me. If nothing else, Nixon's language was careless and dismissive towards masculine women, whether her partner identifies as male or female, (and as far as I know, she ids as female), is irrelevant.

[Medusa]

Devil's Advocate for just a second:

Sometimes I wonder if people dont say things like this when they know that a larger audience will be reading it (read: straight audience) as a way to get people to understand that Butch is a different energy.

Now, to me, "Butch" isn't "Male" energy. In Jackhammer, it's just "Butch" energy but I do see how people who have never encountered "Butch" as anything other than a bad "Butch always equals flannel shirts, crew cuts, and militant feminism" stereotype can maybe understand it better. I hate that the understanding comes at a price though...and sometimes the understanding doesnt come at all.

Jack and I have sometimes explained to family or friends that her energy is not "Male" but "Tomboy" and they seem to get that she is still a woman when she is grunting over an engine, fixing something, or chewing Skoal (ICK!). *We* know that she isnt "just a Tomboy" but that she is a "Butch" but in order to further the understanding with whoever we are talking to, we have sometimes broken it down into a concept they can understand.

[Random]

Linus,

That's what I was thinking...

What if her partner is a short man with boobs?
I'm not in their relationship so I can't say..


I used to have a partner who self id'd as a white, redneck, southern conservitive man to her nearest and dearest..

To the rest of the world she presented as a native american catholic straight woman...

Bit of a difference...

[BullDog]

Judging by all the nasty replies on some of the websites Nixon's remarks definitely are not furthering any understanding of butch. Same oh same oh- wanna be man comments.

[betenoire]

As we all know how someone id's varies greatly. Maybe her partner wants that as her id, who knows? Maybe Nixon was just trying to be funny

I think the more important question is: does it bother her butch? For all we know, this is a term of endearment between them.


What if her partner is a short man with boobs?
I'm not in their relationship so I can say..


Thanks you three, you summed up what I was typing - before the phone rang. I got back from my phonecall to discover you'd beat me to it. Mwah!

[turasultana]

The full advocate article puts the comment in a little more context. They were saying how folks would see Christine as very different than the women they are used to seeing "miranda" with (carrie, samantha...). And Cynthia Nixon laughs and makes the short man w/ boobs comment.

Not saying right or wrong, but in context I think she was more saying how Christine might look from the outside if sitting at a table of Sex and the City characters.

[BullDog]

I wonder what the reaction would be if a public figure described their femme partner as basically a short/tall woman with boobs? How about a trans guy? Somehow it's ok to reduce butches to short men with boobs?

[betenoire]

I think it's icky to behave as though she said that "All Butches are basically short men with boobs! BOOOOOOOOOOBS! MENNNNN! BOOOOOOBS!"

And for the record - none of us know how this person self-identifies. There's nothing to indicate that Nixon's lovah identifies as a Butch. Nixon referred to her "butchness" but that's not the same thing - I'm sure we all know that. Plus, further on in the article Nixon did reject the notion that they were in a Butch+Femme relationship.

I bet you'll all be real upset to hear that I tend to refer to my spouse as "the short hair" and myself as "the long hair". OMG I have oppressed us all!

[Heart]

I find it interesting that in this instance, many are so willing to shrug and say, "well, who knows? Maybe that's how she identifies, that's all that matters, etc." Why is that all that matters? That is NOT something we would say if the comment was in reference to someone's ethnicity or ability, for example. You wouldn't refer to someone as a "crip," or "white trash" even if they refer to themselves that way. The exact point I am making here is that we tolerate comments like this about women, shrug them off, make it a personal thing, instead of having a community standard that says it's not okay to refer to butches as "men with boobs."

[BullDog]

The hue and cry would be different if it were about femmes or trans men or male identified butches.

[Random]

I wonder what the reaction would be if a public figure described their femme partner as basically a short/tall woman with boobs? How about a trans guy? Somehow it's ok to reduce butches to short men with boobs?

and it's ok to say that butches who FEEL like short men with boobs have to be something else?

Again.. not everything fits everyone...

[SuperFemme]

I wonder if that is what goes through peoples mind after they've called my Beloved *Sir* and THEN noticed hys boobs? Either way, you can always see that moment of recognition....

[BullDog]

and it's ok to say that butches who FEEL like short men with boobs have to be something else?

Again.. not everything fits everyone...

LOL, I've never heard of a butch describing themselves as a short man with boobs. Is this a new gender identity?

[Random]

I find it interesting that in this instance, many are so willing to shrug and say, "well, who knows? Maybe that's how she identifies, that's all that matters, etc." Why is that all that matters? That is NOT something we would say if the comment was in reference to someone's ethnicity or ability, for example. You wouldn't refer to someone as a "crip," or "white trash" even if they refer to themselves that way. The exact point I am making here is that we tolerate comments like this about women, shrug them off, make it a personal thing, instead of having a community standard that says it's not okay to refer to butches as "men with boobs."

Heart..

She is saying that HER butch is... not that all butches are...

There is a difference...

It's just as wrong trying to force your (general your's, not your's personaly) ID on someone as it is to try to says that all are something because one is...

[Heart]

The hue and cry would be different if it were about femmes or trans men or male identified butches.

I don't think the comment would be made about femmes - who afterall, express more "traditional" (read: understood, expected) woman-hood, so of course they have BOOBS.

I agree that any reference to transmen or male-ided queers and BOOBS would immediately be seen as disrespectful, rather than shrugged off or justified. But the reference wouldn't get made as easily because of the privleging of male identity. It's specifically women, in this instance masculine women, that are supposed to suck it up and just have a sense of humor about any reference to BOOBS.

Even in context, I find Nixon's statement utterly objectifying and basically stupid.

[Random]

LOL, I've never heard of a butch describing themselves as a short man with boobs. Is this a new gender identity?

There are more things Heratio..

Ever heard of a native american straight woman being a white,redneck, conservitive man?

Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't make it not true...

[betenoire]

The hue and cry would be different if it were about femmes or trans men or male identified butches.

Not from me, it's not. I don't give a rats ass how two people in an adult relationship describe one another - provided it doesn't hurt the feelings of the ONE person being described.

LOL, I've never heard of a butch describing themselves as a short man with boobs. Is this a new gender identity?

You've never heard a butch refer to his/her/hys/whatever breasts as "man boobs"? Really? Because I have. I'm actually pretty sure that my own spouse has said that.

[Heart]

Heart..

She is saying that HER butch is... not that all butches are...

There is a difference...

It's just as wrong trying to force your (general your's, not your's personaly) ID on someone as it is to try to says that all are something because one is...


You are completely missing my point.

The only thing I am trying to force, and will continue to try and force, is recognition that women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine, and that being ultra-masculine does NOT make one male anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

Does that expalin it better??

[BullDog]

Not from me, it's not. I don't give a rats ass how two people in an adult relationship describe one another - provided it doesn't hurt the feelings of the ONE person being described.



You've never heard a butch refer to his/her/hys/whatever breasts as "man boobs"? Really? Because I have. I'm actually pretty sure that my own spouse has said that.

I wasn't referring to body parts, I was referring to human beings.

[turasultana]

You are completely missing my point.

maybe she's not missing it, just disagreeing with it. which is allowed. :)

My guess, is its something Cynthia and Christine joke about - Christine "compared to your sex and the city girlfriends I look like a short guy with boobs" and they laugh it off. Cynthia said it in the Advocate, probably among a zillion other things they didn't even print - and huffington post and ny post and whoever else, took the most quotable, (perhaps unfortunate) line and used it as a teaser.

now we're beating it into the ground. (me too of course, but just cause my boss is off today :>)

[Heart]

maybe she's not missing it, just disagreeing with it. which is allowed. :)

My guess, is its something Cynthia and Christine joke about - Christine "compared to your sex and the city girlfriends I look like a short guy with boobs" and they laugh it off. Cynthia said it in the Advocate, probably among a zillion other things they didn't even print - and huffington post and ny post and whoever else, took the most quotable, (perhaps unfortunate) line and used it as a teaser.


No actually, Random was missing it - because I'm not forcing anything on anyone, they can id however they want, in fact it's irrelevant to my point what their personal ids and relationship and lover's jokes are.

Nixon's comment leads me to make this point (as I did above): women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine. Being ultra-masculine does NOT make one a man anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

That, in a nutshell, is my point.

Heart

[Random]

You are completely missing my point.

The only thing I am trying to force, and will continue to try and force, is recognition that women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine, and that being ultra-masculine does NOT make one male anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

Does that expalin it better??

No.. I didn't miss your point...

Lol.. this is just one subject we don't agree upon...

Because I belive that there are more ways to id... more diversity on the spectrum of gender and sexual identities that there are words to describe them...

and a couple of ways that ultra masculine people ID is male and ultra feminine ID is straight..

For SOME People those are truths... Nothing is true of everyone... And for me... Those people who do fall into the *Tradidional Sterotypes* have just as much voice/rights to ID as THEY ID as those who don't fall into the traditional...

For me... Not one way is better.... the entire range is right for those who feel it is right for them...

If you are a femaled id'd butch.. yea.. if you are male id'd... yea... if you are a high femme who id's a a straight mother and wife... yea.. if you are a femme dyke (me!) who loves her doc's as much as her stillettos and wants to bring her butch dinner while wearing a apron over her camo's... Yea...

There is a place for all of us... We might not fit every where.. with everyone.. but there is room for all of us...

[BullDog]

When someone makes a public comment that many would construe as transphobic- that's what it's called- transphobic. People don't bend their ass over backwards trying to find something clever or cute about it.

What is said or shared between a couple in private is between them.

[Random]

I wonder if that is what goes through peoples mind after they've called my Beloved *Sir* and THEN noticed hys boobs? Either way, you can always see that moment of recognition....


Personally...

I think it's hot... grin...

I love that moment then things don't mesh...

Sort of like the look in people eyes when they find out between the amazon and myself.. I'm the Top...

Grin.. Priceless..

[Dylan]

So, she's not allowed to be referred to by her partner (someone who obviously knows her as they live together, and they're raising children together) as a 'man with boobs', but she IS allowed to be referred to by complete strangers on the internet as 'a butch' (which she may not ID with at all, and being that her partner has pretty much stated they don't ID as a butch/femme couple, we can infer that she doesn't ID as a butch)

And all because complete strangers on the internet feel they have a right to tag her as THEY deem fit, and in a way in which makes THEM comfortable.

And this is justified with 'personal IDs are out of fashion this year'?


Oh, Ok,
Dylan

[Bob]

I don't think each and every personal story and id necessarily takes precidence over cultural expressions of sexism, misogyny, and homophobia towards butch women. And that's how this reads to me. If nothing else, Nixon's language was careless and dismissive towards masculine women, whether her partner identifies as male or female, (and as far as I know, she ids as female), is irrelevant.

....
And for the record - none of us know how this person self-identifies. There's nothing to indicate that Nixon's lovah identifies as a Butch.

So, I'm going to pick on Bete's comment first, because I like her and because it is part of our relationship that we constantly antagonize one another with delicious malice aforethought. So, in short: CRAP. And to all other posters who said essentially the same thing.

Heart's comment is really the uh, heart of the issue. Regardless of whether one doesn't mind being called a 'short man with boobs', the larger concern is the language (and through it, the thought) that engenders the ongoing belittlement of of masculine WOMEN, because, ya know, it's all RELATIVE to the individual and their own identity.

One's own identity is never (or should never be) the paramount concern in any 'community'. The idea of a community itself implies that its larger than any one individual. As long as we, as a community, continue to use (or condone) language that has the essential power to demean others because we're afraid of being 'judgemental' or similar happy horseshit, we demean the entire community, and consequently, ourselves.

[Medusa]

Hey Heart,

Hope it's ok to tease this out a little more. :)

I also believe that women exist on a gender spectrum that is as diverse as it is prolific.
Im wondering if, in the article, Cynthia had referred to her partner as "Trans" if the "man with boobs" comment would mean something different to you? What if her partner comes out as Trans in a few days? Would that feel any different when trying to name something on our gender spectrum that may exist in a completely different capacity on someone else's?
Because to me, it does make a difference how that person identifies, if the comment was ok for their way of being or if it was an insensitive, erasing snip.

I was sitting here kinda thinking over a couple of the conversations I have had with some of my Trans Male friends and how a couple have actually talked about feeling like a "man with boobs" until they were able to have the surgery to make their body fit more in-line with what they felt their identity called for.

I was also thinking about the negative comments on this particular article and how it saddens me so deeply that our entire spectrum of Queerness is so often fetishized and/or treated as a voyeur-circus for mouth-breathing idiots.

More thoughts..

[BullDog]

So, I'm going to pick on Bete's comment first, because I like her and because it is part of our relationship that we constantly antagonize one another with delicious malice aforethought. So, in short: CRAP. And to all other posters who said essentially the same thing.

Heart's comment is really the uh, heart of the issue. Regardless of whether one doesn't mind being called a 'short man with boobs', the larger concern is the language (and through it, the thought) that engenders the ongoing belittlement of of masculine WOMEN, because, ya know, it's all RELATIVE to the individual and their own identity.

One's own identity is never (or should never be) the paramount concern in any 'community'. The idea of a community itself implies that its larger than any one individual. As long as we, as a community, continue to use (or condone) language that has the essential power to demean others because we're afraid of being 'judgemental' or similar happy horseshit, we demean the entire community, and consequently, ourselves.

Thank you Bob!

[betenoire]

Heart's comment is really the uh, heart of the issue. Regardless of whether one doesn't mind being called a 'short man with boobs', the larger concern is the language (and through it, the thought) that engenders the ongoing belittlement of of masculine WOMEN, because, ya know, it's all RELATIVE to the individual and their own identity.

So you're saying it's fair to run about policing the identities, labels, what-have-yous of complete strangers who are more "masculine presenting" because their identities, labels, and what-have-yous have the potential to paint another completely unrelated "masculine presenting" person with a brush that they don't like?

Sorry, Bob. I'm not buying it. I call horseshit.

If Nick where to, say, call me his "princess kitty hobag" in public should all Femmes everywhere have some sort of an outcry because they were oppressed by proxy? Fuck that.

[BullDog]

A masculine appearing WOMAN (however she may identify and whatever her and her partner may share between them) is being reduced to a short man with boobs.

Just who is policing identities? Now people are saying short man with boobs is an identity.

[Heart]

Random - it's really frustrating for you to claim you understand what I'm saying when you obviously think that I am just not being accepting of diverse identities. That is not what my issue is at all.

Assumptions are made routinely that masculine women are "male." Butch women are assumed to be male identified, even when they are not. These assumptions are so woven into the fabric of our community that they go un-noticed. I used Nixon's comment to make that point.

I won't argue with you further because we are talking about apples and oranges

Heart

[Dylan]

One's own identity is never (or should never be) the paramount concern in any 'community'. The idea of a community itself implies that its larger than any one individual. As long as we, as a community, continue to use (or condone) language that has the essential power to demean others because we're afraid of being 'judgemental' or similar happy horseshit, we demean the entire community, and consequently, ourselves.

I disagree wholeheartedly

And who said these people belonged to a community? Did they say they did, or are we forcing them to be in a 'community'?

And to which community do they belong?

Since when does what the 'community' label you supercede how you identify yourself?

And since when did making an individual the representative spokesperson for ALL in the community become vogue again? I thought privilege 101 stated very clearly that's not how things work. This Cynthia character represents nada about my life, so why is she a spokesperson for my 'community'? Why is she a representative held to some high high standard? If we don't want straight people to make us all 'representatives' and 'ambassadors', we can't apply that ourselves when it's 'convenient'.


Dylan

[betenoire]

A masculine appearing WOMAN (however she may identify and whatever her and her partner may share between them) is being reduced to a short man with boobs.

Just who is policing identities? Now people are saying short man with boobs is an identity.

How is that "reduced"? Are you saying that there is something -wrong- with short men with boobs? Do you have a hate-on for Danny DeVito? What is going on here?

And maybe "short man with boobs" IS the identity of someone, somewhere. I wasn't being tongue in cheek when I said that I self-identify as "A fat Drew Barrymore". I fucking DO, okay? Because it's the closest thing that I can think of to what/who I actually am.

Why are you personalizing what someone else may or may not be referred to as?

[Medusa]

A masculine appearing WOMAN (however she may identify and whatever her and her partner may share between them) is being reduced to a short man with boobs.

Just who is policing identities? Now people are saying short man with boobs is an identity.


But *is* she a woman?
Are we assuming she is a woman because she has breasts and a vagina? Have we *seen* her breasts and vagina?
Do we know whether or not she is right now, at this very minute, sitting in a Dr's office filling our her paperwork for SRS?
Do we know that she isnt on testosterone?

Now, let me be clear that Im not "defaulting to the male experience" here by wondering aloud these questions, just being curious though how the proverbial "we" perceive a person's gender as opposed to how "they" perceive it.

Good discussion.

[Random]

This argument always reminds me of when you couldn't be butch or femme without taking MASSIVE amount of flack from the lesbian community..How as femmes we are letting down the womans movement because we are giving in to the patriarcal idea of what a woman should look like...

I belive that that at times, what is best for the *community* what you *should be or say to properly represent your *people* is not what works for you as a person...

[BullDog]

I am not the one speculating how she identifies.

This is way beyond frustrating for me. Good day.

[Heart]

Hey Heart,

Hope it's ok to tease this out a little more. :)

I also believe that women exist on a gender spectrum that is as diverse as it is prolific.
Im wondering if, in the article, Cynthia had referred to her partner as "Trans" if the "man with boobs" comment would mean something different to you? What if her partner comes out as Trans in a few days? Would that feel any different when trying to name something on our gender spectrum that may exist in a completely different capacity on someone else's?
Because to me, it does make a difference how that person identifies, if the comment was ok for their way of being or if it was an insensitive, erasing snip.
More thoughts..

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with Cynthia's partner's id. It doesn't matter if she's butch, trans, andro, sporty or none of those. It's the way Cynthia chose to describe her masculine female partner as a MAN because that is the only way she can be understood since masculinity CANNOT, apparently belong to a women. That's my point.

Now. If her partner was, in fact, a man and/or if she came out as a transman tomorrow, the interesting thing is that I think we'd hear a whole lot of hulabaloo about how transphobic Nixon's comment was. Would any of us refer to Chaz Bono or any of our FtM brethern as "men with boobs?" It would be considered highly disrespectful.

And that's my other point: the privileging of men/male identity over women/female identity.

Heart

[Random]

Random - it's really frustrating for you to claim you understand what I'm saying when you obviously think that I am just not being accepting of diverse identities. That is not what my issue is at all.

Assumptions are made routinely that masculine women are "male." Butch women are assumed to be male identified, even when they are not. These assumptions are so woven into the fabric of our community that they go un-noticed. I used Nixon's comment to make that point.

I won't argue with you further because we are talking about apples and oranges

Heart

That's fine..

For me we are not talking apple and oranges... we are talking different sides of the coins...

Yes, there are assumptions that masculine women are male... There are assumptions that masculine women are gay.. (I live in NE.. every time I go out to one of the small towns, farm wifes set off my butchar all the time..)

I'm just pointing out that while there are masuline women who id as women, there are also masculine women who id as male...

One should never be above the other... We can't automaticly assume that one is anything.. unless they say what they are...

[Bob]

So you're saying it's fair to run about policing the identities, labels, what-have-yous of complete strangers who are more "masculine presenting" because their identities, labels, and what-have-yous have the potential to paint another completely unrelated "masculine presenting" person with a brush that they don't like?.

No, that's not what I said. What I said is that certain types of language are intrinsically demeaning, regardless of who it's applied to and whether or not that person likes it.

I fail to see how demeaning one group of people empowers another who may share (for the sake of convenience) the same 'label'. Such as 'butch', for example. Butch has come to encompass such a wide variety of personas, presentations, and gender identities that it's almost become meaningless in any real sense. Regardless of whether you're male-id'ed or female-id'ed, language that implies that women who are masculine are somehow less than is wrong.

Or to use a slightly more inflammatory example, most people would probably agree that regardless of its use among certain musical genres and subcommunities, it's not okay to use the the N word. We recognize that as word that is fundamentally and in and of itself meant only to harm.

I fear that misogyny, unlike racism (random teabaggers aside) is so ingrained in people that they don't recognize it when they see it. It's not about policing others' identities, it's about policing ourselves.

[Random]

A masculine appearing WOMAN (however she may identify and whatever her and her partner may share between them) is being reduced to a short man with boobs.

Just who is policing identities? Now people are saying short man with boobs is an identity.

Who are we to say that short man with boobs isn't an identity?

Just the same as tall woman with dick could be an identity...

[Medusa]

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with Cynthia's partner's id. It doesn't matter if she's butch, trans, andro, sporty or none of those. It's the way Cynthia chose to describe her masculine female partner as a MAN because that is the only way she can be understood since masculinity CANNOT, apparently belong to a women. That's my point.

Now. If her partner was, in fact, a man and/or if she came out as a transman tomorrow, the interesting thing is that I think we'd hear a whole lot of hulabaloo about how transphobic Nixon's comment was. Would any of us refer to Chaz Bono or any of our FtM brethern as "men with boobs?" It would be considered highly disrespectful.

And that's my other point: the privileging of men/male identity over women/female identity.

Heart


Ah, see, now we're talking!
See, when I read that she is describing her masculine female partner as a man, I first wondered if she was just trying to get people who dont have the language that we have to understand. Thinking futher though, I wondered if she was describing her masculine female partner that way because she knows something that we dont know (the whole hypothesis about how her partner may or may not self-identify her gender).

I do definitely agree that there is privileging in the identity of men/male over the woman/female...until there isnt. For the most part, this exists on a grand scale throughout just about every corner of society, but then I think of Femme privilege in context with my Butch partner experiencing homophobia and Im able to see cracks in my (once-solid) little gender vase.

[Heart]

I fear that misogyny, unlike racism (random teabaggers aside) is so ingrained in people that they don't recognize it when they see it. It's not about policing others' identities, it's about policing ourselves.

Yes. Thank you.

That's my point.

[BullDog]

Who are we to say that short man with boobs isn't an identity?

Just the same as tall woman with dick could be an identity...

If someone referred to their partner as well he's basically a tall woman with a dick this conversation would be far different.

[Random]

If someone referred to their partner as well he's basically a tall woman with a dick this conversation would be far different.

You think so?

I haven't lived your experience as a butch.. So I haven't had your experiences..

But for me... I would just as strongly support someones right to be a tall woman with a dick as I do a short man with boobs...

Now someone other that the person or the persons partner labling anyone either one would meet with resistance..

Random..

Who's partner IS occassionaly a tall woman with a dick...

[BullDog]

You think so?

I haven't lived your experience as a butch.. So I haven't had your experiences..

But for me... I would just as strongly support someones right to be a tall woman with a dick as I do a short man with boobs...

Now someone other that the person or the persons partner labling anyone either one would meet with resistance..

Random..

Who's partner IS occassionaly a tall woman with a dick...

I'm not sure how many times it has to be repeated that the issue isn't one individual's personal identity.

Edit: as far as I know no one here knows Cynthia Nixon's partner personally.

[Heart]

Jesus Christ. This discussion was not intended to be about whether someone can call themselves a short man with boobs or a tall woman with dick. How does it get reduced down to: "Anyone can call themselves whatever they want?" If that's the discussion you want to have - go ahead.

But that is not the discussion I started.

[Medusa]

I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy.

I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street.

I'd be pissed.

The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon.
Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender?

..

[Random]

I'm not sure how many times it has to be repeated that the issue isn't one individual's personal identity.

Edit: as far as I know no one here knows Cynthia Nixon's partner personally.

I guess that is the difference in viewpoints..

Your stance on the issue is that it isn't one individual's personal identity...

My stance is that it is always one person

For me.. the indivdual is more important that the mass.. one is just as important as the many...

[BullDog]

I guess that is the difference in viewpoints..

Your stance on the issue is that it isn't one individual's personal identity...

My stance is that it is always one person

For me.. the indivdual is more important that the mass.. one is just as important as the many...

*banging my head against the brick wall yet again*

"she's basically a man with boobs"

that a generalized statement- not my partner identifies as a short man with boobs.

This has nothing to do with one person's personal identity- none of us even knows what hers is or if she even has one.

Geeze Louise

Everybody can call themselves what they want and their partners can too if with consent. So what does that have to do with the issue Heart has raised?

[apretty]

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.

thanks, nixon's comment totally felt dismissive and shitty, to me.

(and if i'd have said that about anyone i've dated, i'd have found myself very SINGLE, after.)

[Bob]

. So what does that have to do with the issue Heart has raised?

I'LL tell you what it's got to do with it.

The price of Limburger in Hamburg.

[Heart]

I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy.

I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street.

I'd be pissed.

The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon.
Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender?

..

Dusa - it's not about the individual identity for me or about the intimate relationship. I'm not concerned with their identities or their relationship. For me, it's about the paucity of language and images, the assumption that only men/male can be masculine, and all that that implies about views of women's genders and sexualities in society, culture and communities, including queer ones. Even if Nixon's partner is not a woman, the statment is minimizing and dismissive of the reality and complexity of butch women's lives -- because her partner is certainly seen in the world as a woman. Except now she is seen as a man with boobs.

I don't hold Nixon responsible for the fact that there are such narrow visions of what women are, and so few ways to describe the lives of women that fall outside of cultural norms, but it saddens me that she has to use this kind of tired, (and yes, sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic) remark to describe her partner.

Heart

[Jett]

So, she's not allowed to be referred to by her partner (someone who obviously knows her as they live together, and they're raising children together) as a 'man with boobs', but she IS allowed to be referred to by complete strangers on the internet as 'a butch' (which she may not ID with at all, and being that her partner has pretty much stated they don't ID as a butch/femme couple, we can infer that she doesn't ID as a butch)

And all because complete strangers on the internet feel they have a right to tag her as THEY deem fit, and in a way in which makes THEM comfortable.

And this is justified with 'personal IDs are out of fashion this year'?


Oh, Ok,
Dylan

Is this (below) what you're referring to as saying her partner saying she doesn't ID as butch? (I say she b/c her partner refers to her as "her")

Because I pretty much read that as her saying she'd (Christine) be upset for saying that really the personalities are the opposite of what they appear as... and also I know she did say one of the things she loved about her was her "butch-ness", earlier in the article.

Probably shouldn't be making statements that she isn't butch any more than assuming that she is (or identifies as such).

"Christine would probably kill me for saying this, but my daughter said one time that if you really had to break this down, [it looks like] she would be butch and I would be femme...but really once you get to know us it's really the opposite."

[Jett]

It's interesting, would it be as acceptable and defended if Cynthia had said "one of the things I love about him is his trans-ness" - "he's a short woman without boobs".

If you find that offensive, but are defending her about the "short man with boobs" crappola... well that to me is a problem.

Because I know... everyone would be all over that like fly's on shit.

[Gemme]

Gemme - but do you see my point? Why does her masculinity make her a man? Why not a masculine woman? Why do we persist in assuming that masculinity belongs to men? This is how male gets privileged over female constantly in queer communities.

Heart

It doesn't, necessarily, but maybe it does. We've apparently beat the poor horse several times since I logged in earlier about this, so I won't go into why our perception of her relationship makes no difference and that she, as one entertainer in this world who happens to be a member of our community, is not responsible for teaching the masses about gender identity, male privilege or anything beyond or in between.

As we all know how someone id's varies greatly. Maybe her partner wants that as her id, who knows? Maybe Nixon was just trying to be funny. The thing is just because someone is in the public eye it doesn't make them the spokesperson for all queers, but yet at the same time it does draw a lot of attention to us. For good or bad.

I think the more important question is: does it bother her butch? For all we know, this is a term of endearment between them.

Agreed. To both.


Actually Linus, I don't think that's the most important question. I don't think each and every personal story and id necessarily takes precidence over cultural expressions of sexism, misogyny, and homophobia towards butch women. And that's how this reads to me. If nothing else, Nixon's language was careless and dismissive towards masculine women, whether her partner identifies as male or female, (and as far as I know, she ids as female), is irrelevant.

I agree that the wording is awkward at best. Luckily, no one else has ever misspoken or had their words twisted or misquoted by folks not in the slightest bit involved in the discussion at hand. :blink:

To me, she was extolling a particular virtue or group of virtues or traits of her partner. I, personally, connected the term she used to mean "my partner has a masculinity (very similar to that of a man) and a femininity (physically) that I enjoy". Does that mean that masculinity always equals man? No. But for many, it does.

I find it interesting that in this instance, many are so willing to shrug and say, "well, who knows? Maybe that's how she identifies, that's all that matters, etc." Why is that all that matters? That is NOT something we would say if the comment was in reference to someone's ethnicity or ability, for example. You wouldn't refer to someone as a "crip," or "white trash" even if they refer to themselves that way. The exact point I am making here is that we tolerate comments like this about women, shrug them off, make it a personal thing, instead of having a community standard that says it's not okay to refer to butches as "men with boobs."


But what if Christine likes being addressed as such? What if she's okay with her partner saying that about HER? Who are we to judge?

LOL, I've never heard of a butch describing themselves as a short man with boobs. Is this a new gender identity?

It could be. Or not.

When someone makes a public comment that many would construe as transphobic- that's what it's called- transphobic. People don't bend their ass over backwards trying to find something clever or cute about it.

What is said or shared between a couple in private is between them.


Private..until hundreds or thousands find out about it and then deconstruct it and assign the blame of hundreds of years of phobias and lynchings to it.

I'm sure Cynthia wishes she said something different or added to the comment. Well, I would think she would, but I don't really know, because I'm not her and my perception of her words and relationship don't really mean anything to anyone but myself.

I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy.

I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street.

I'd be pissed.

The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon.
Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender?

..

I'd probably be confused. I might even ask for clarity (and yes, I do do that with strangers some times).

We can't pick and choose how our community is presented. Honestly, I think that is why some of those who have posted are truly pissed. It may be tied up with male privilege and genuine offense at the term, but who are we to impose (thanks for that...it's exactly what I feel) on their relationship. Did she come to our home and say it? Nope.

[Gemme]

It's interesting, would it be as acceptable and defended if Cynthia had said "one of the things I love about him is his trans-ness" - "he's a short woman without boobs".

If you find that offensive, but are defending her about the "short man with boobs" crappola... well that to me is a problem.

Because I know... everyone would be all over that like fly's on shit.

Unlike everyone is all over what she actually said?

[Jett]

Unlike everyone is all over what she actually said?

Everyone's not actually...

ETA: Not that everyone should be... I was making a comparison in the severity of reaction to the hypothetical situation I put forth and the situation at hand.

I stand by what I said, the reactions to the situation of a woman (to which Cynthia refers to her partner as) being called a man, as opposed to a male being referred to as a woman, in the context of these discussions in our community aren't comparable.

Metro

[SassyLeo]

When I read the front page of the article... my initial thought is... WOW she could use some education!

She specifically said that she was not attracted to or dated women until she met her partner. How long have they been together (did it say...I cannot remember)? Now because she has been with her partner for X number of years, she is supposed to be an expert on all things butch & femme; in terms of what kind of "language" to use?

My point is this...while I totally agree that her comments are archaic in regards to the language of "gender spectrum" and playing into the male/female roles that society has forced upon every relationship dynamic, I am not convinced she is "sophisticated" and/or even has the level of information/awareness that we all do.

Years ago when I first came to this community, I had little knowledge about butch/femme dynamics, gender politics, etc (aside from my own growing up with gay parents in the 80's/90's which was still early for alot of this...). I learned by reading and dialoguing with ALL OF YOU!

That doesn't mean I think it is ok; in terms of how she used the gender role language. I guess I choose to look at it like, hey...we still have alot of work to do; to educate...and especially those who are fore front to the media.

It makes me want to write her a letter :)

[BullDog]

Sassy, yeah she appears to be newly out. I don't hate the messenger just the message. And also the fact that such tired, sexist, misogynist and homophobic remarks are being defended.

To quote Heart:

I don't hold Nixon responsible for the fact that there are such narrow visions of what women are, and so few ways to describe the lives of women that fall outside of cultural norms, but it saddens me that she has to use this kind of tired, (and yes, sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic) remark to describe her partner.

Heart

The message over and over is masculine women/butch women- suck it up, laugh it off. Not so when derogatory comments are made towards other masculine gender identities in our community.

[Soon]

women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine. Being ultra-masculine does NOT make one a man anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

That, in a nutshell, is my point.

Heart




Thank you, Heart, for so succinctly phrasing what is wrong with Nixon's description.

Last night, I was IM'ing, linked the article, pasted the phrase in question and typed *UGH*...today, I thought about it more and, lo and behold, a mighty thread to read with much to ponder.

Many of you have already expressed (better than I could have articulated!) the reason for my automatic response of taking offense at her phrasing and equating her partner with a man.

Nixon has been with her partner since 2004--not that she needs to be the expert on anything--but god, please! People were already (I know b/c I follow the celeb goss) commenting upon Marinoni's masculine looks/presentation and same 'ol comments of *why not just be with a man?* Now, Nixon verifies (to the public) that a butch or masculine presenting woman basically IS a man...with boobs. She confirmed (joking or not, private understanding or not) what people already thought of butch women--they really are just women posing as men--so why not just be with a (real) man? (especially when you are with a FAKE man, an ugly looking mannish woman at that! <--variations of awful, disgusting comments that have been posted pre and post this article regarding this couple.

As far as whether Marinoni ID's as other than female/woman, here is a snippet of an interview (http://www.celebitchy.com/11581/cynthia_nixon_wants_to_marry_her_girlfriend/) with Nixon from the past who clearly states that she fell in love with a woman:

She continues, “I had been with men all my life and I had never met a woman I had fallen in love with before. But when I did, it didn’t seem so strange. “I don’t define myself. I’m just a woman in love with another woman.”
....
She notes, “I met this woman and I fell in love with her. In terms of my sexual orientation, I don’t really feel that I changed. I don’t feel any different than I did before.”

Anyway, regardless of where you fall on this issue, what a great discussion.

[BullDog]

I think her 3 year old son is right on the mark:



Charlie’s processing of the relationship started at school. “His teachers were just so great about it,” Nixon says, “because they were the first people that started referring to ‘Charlie’s moms,’ which is so lovely, and we really hadn’t done that yet. So Charlie came home one day and he said [to Marinoni], ‘You’re my mommy too!’ ” Deciding to seize the opportunity, Nixon began calling her partner Mama Christine. “I said, ‘Charlie, where’s Mama Christine? Is Mama Christine in the other room? Would you take this to Mama Christine? What does Mama Christine want for breakfast?’ I did this a nauseating amount, and one morning we’re at breakfast and Christine is in the shower and Charlie says, ‘Where’s Papa?’ My daughter says ‘Papa? You mean Daddy?’ And he said ‘No, Papa! Christine!’ He’d come up with this masculine name for her. It’s gone through a whole series of things.” When Charlie’s Russian barber told him to ask his daddy to give him a little brother, Nixon says she stood back to watch the preschool-age Charlie’s *reaction. “I was just going to let it go—what are you going to say? But I saw Charlie—I saw it land and how he thought about this, and he was quiet for a while. Then he very slowly said, ‘Sometimes I call Christine Mommy.’ It was like Charlie was trying to navigate what everybody’s assumptions about him and his family were at age 3. It was so amazing.”

http://advocate.com/printArticle.aspx?id=110591

She's Papa and she's Mama Christine and she's Mommy :)

[BullDog]

The story that Nixon describes of her family is very similar to one I am familiar with. My butch roommate is a mother and grandmother. Her grandson, when he was about 3, started calling his grandmother Guz (we think it's a combo between Buzz Lightyear and Grandma). It fits his butch grandmother to a t. The kids call their femme grandmother Nana. Kids know butches are somewhat different and they figure it out.

Whether Nixon's partner specifically ids as butch or not, she appears to face many of the same issues that a lot of butches/masculine women face. She deals with people that know and love her as well as perfect strangers who might not always know where to place her. She deals with it in her house, at the barber shop, at her kids' school, wherever she happens to go. That's in the context of being a masculine, lesbian/queer WOMAN (in terms of how you are perceived, not talking personal, individual identity) in this world- and all the good, bad and indifferent things that go along with that. The very lived experiences that lots of people in butch femme communities seem to want to ignore or erase.

[Kobi]

This thread made me chuckle.

After being out for 30+ years, it is the same never ending, always growing and changing identity, labels, individuality, all inclusive nonsense. We, as a community cannot agree on any of the terms and inclusions but we expect outsiders to accept and understand the free for all we call a community?

And, we cant agree on this but feel we have the right to judge and comment on how someone else sees their own relationship? Do you really care what words Cynthia Nixon uses to describe her partner? Is like the world going to stop revolving if they have their own way of being that doesnt coincide the the multitude of opinions just within this thread? Isnt that their right?

When you stop and think about it....maybe the slow growth of acceptance is being fueled by our own need to constantly reinvent the wheel everytime we hear of a new word or term or identity or whatever. Heck, Cynthia Nixon is my opinion is just a heterosexual lesbian.....but thats a whole 'nother topic.....lol.

If we cant agree on it and accept it, why should anyone else accept it?

[Cyclopea]

If she's a man with boobs she must be able to stroll around central park shirtless enjoying the sun on her double D's without getting so much as a second glance.

I took Nixon's remarks as being humorous and off-the-cuff and overall I respect her immensely and don't hold her comment against her.

That being said I appreciate Heart's topic: that there is a lack of language to describe female masculinity without equating it with maleness and thus insulting the naturalness of the butch woman. Being masculine does not make someone less of a woman.

Great thread! :)

[Arwen]

I just have one question.

Who the heck is Cynthia Nixon and why are her words so important?

I get that some of us see her words as misogynistic.
I get that some of us don't.

I really am quite clueless as to who she is so I'll have to google her first.

My worry is that we are putting our wants and needs for an inclusive society who sees things the way we do in the mouth of one ten-minute-celebrity.

[Cyclopea]

I just have one question.

Who the heck is Cynthia Nixon and why are her words so important?

I get that some of us see her words as misogynistic.
I get that some of us don't.

I really am quite clueless as to who she is so I'll have to google her first.

My worry is that we are putting our wants and needs for an inclusive society who sees things the way we do in the mouth of one ten-minute-celebrity.



I don't think it matters who Nixon is or what she said- I think Heart just used that as a good example to start a discussion on the language surrounding female masculinity...

[Kobi]

I just have one question.

Who the heck is Cynthia Nixon and why are her words so important?

I get that some of us see her words as misogynistic.
I get that some of us don't.

I really am quite clueless as to who she is so I'll have to google her first.

My worry is that we are putting our wants and needs for an inclusive society who sees things the way we do in the mouth of one ten-minute-celebrity.


Cynthia Nixon is the redheaded actress on Sex in The City. Her words are as important as Anne Heche's were.

If it helps, I think remaining clueless on this is a good thing. :)

[Arwen]

I don't think it matters who Nixon is or what she said- I think Heart just used that as a good example to start a discussion on the language surrounding female masculinity...

And if this Cynthia Nixon person's partner does id as a male butch? Or is her personal choice not an issue here?

For me, this is really not about female masculinity as much as it is trying to police someone else's words. I try not to do that any more because it doesn't fall within my hula hoop.

I am interested in reading how others view their partners or themselves. I am not interested in reading how others think others should view their partners or themselves.

I'm not being facetious at all here. I truly do not understand the fuss.

Now if Dusa called Jack a big ol' hairy-assed man, I'd have a problem with that because I know Jack is female-id'd. I'd find that really ugly on Dusa's part. Same goes for K calling Linus a hormonal woman. Because Linus is a transman, I'd find that really ugly on K's part.

And I'd have something to say to both of them.

But some random so-called celebrity on an article that will be lost in the archives of the web within days if not hours? Not so much.

I'm not saying y'all shouldn't discuss it. I'm just voicing my opinion over the reason. Do you think you can make her change her words or shame her for her choice of words?

That's what a large portion of this thread read like to me. And I read all of it.

I am interested in what Met wants to be called or EZee Tiger prefers. I do want to know how Gemme id's.

:shrug: Just not really all that inclined to get wound up over a Hollywood soundbite.

[Martina]

i think it's pretty clear that she was trying to explain to people who don't know what a butch is. i agree that it is unfortunate that she said "man." She has told a lot of stories though that show the complexity of their lives.

[Heart]

I don't think it matters who Nixon is or what she said- I think Heart just used that as a good example to start a discussion on the language surrounding female masculinity...

Bingo. Yes, I care about the language/intentions/limitations/biases and assumptions that exist around female identities. And I'm pretty amazed at some of expressions of indifference, that make this just a personal matter. Would you have the same attitude if say, Chaz Bono's partner referred to him publicly as "a man with a vagina?" Would that be seen as just a personal, off-the-cuff, cute attempt at explaining the identity of a transman?

[Corkey]

Personally I could give a rats azz what a so called celeb says about anything, they aren't what make my world go round. Chaz included.

[Arwen]

Bingo. Yes, I care about the language/intentions/limitations/biases and assumptions that exist around female identities. And I'm pretty amazed at some of expressions of indifference, that make this just a personal matter. Would you have the same attitude if say, Chaz Bono's partner referred to him publicly as "a man with a vagina?"

And actually, yes I would have this exact same attitude. Unless, that is, Chaz said something about it or it was said in anger by his partner.

I can't express deeply enough how much I don't care about policing other people's words like this. Not my hula hoop, Heart.

I guess that makes me a bad feminist? I don't know. I just know that I would rather have discussions with and about those that I know and care about than some Hollywood actor. Or do I have to call her an actress since she is clearly feminine?

[Random]

What about Buck Angel who calls himself

A man with a vagina...

[Soon]

Because there are precious few images/couples that publicly reflect my experiences, I AM interested in how these relationships are presented/defined/articulated and people's responses. (the general public as well as those from within our community)

It's like looking at images and reading about B/F stories and histories from the past (which are fascinating and validating at times). I am interested in today's public figures who are part of the queer community and how they present or identify and how society responds to them.

[Heart]

Corky, Arwen - you don't have to care. Do you care that I care?

And I did not once mention the word "feminist in any single one of my posts, nor did I call anyone a "bad" anything.

Oh, and P.S. I don't care one jot what Cynthia and her partner call themselves or each other. None of my business. What I do care about is the discourse, especially in queer communities, about female identities. That is my business. And even if it isn't, I will continue to stick my nose in it anyway. ;)

[Heart]

What about Buck Angel who calls himself

A man with a vagina...

Calls HIMSELF... That's key. (Buck's awesome and a feminist to boot.)

Anyway, I'm pretty much done now. Made my points, stand by 'em.

G'night.

[Arwen]

Corky, Arwen - you don't have to care. Do you care that I care?

And I did not once mention the word "feminist in any single one of my posts, nor did I call anyone a "bad" anything.

That's odd, Heart. I checked my post and didn't see that I said you called me a bad feminist. I am not sure how you read that into my post. I thought we knew one another better than that.

I'm pretty clear with my accusations. SO let me be really clear here. In no way did I think you, Heart, said I was a bad feminist nor was that line meant for you. Okay? That was me saying that about myself and coming from my own life experience.

I'm truly sorry that you felt as if I was accusing you of that. That wasn't the Heart show. Grin. That was the Arwen show.

[Corkey]

Heart have at, you can discuss til the cows come home, it isn't going to change a thing on what this woman said or how it relates to her relationship with her lover. It frankly is none of our business what she calls her lover. It's their relationship, not yours or anyone elses. How she speaks and what she chooses to say about her partner isn't up for opinion on who they are.
What I am concerned with is how people get their britches in a bunch when it is none of their business. No one gets to decide for another who or how to be in a relationship with someone they don't even know.
My.02

[Hack]

I appreciate the point that Heart is making here. But I also appreciate much of the discussion here because it reminds me that I choose to reside in this community that lets me come here and say:

I am not a short man with boobs.
I am not a woman in any sense of the word. I don't care what my chromosomes say about it either.
I do not, at all, embrace my breasts or my other parts that do not match me. Nor do I celebrate them.
I am butch, male-identified to my very core.
I am trans, even though I don't take T and have had very little surgery.
I own who I am. No one tells me who I am.
I define me. I live in this body. I make no excuses. I never apologize for who I am.

This, to me, is the very core of this community...the right to self-i.d. I think that Cynthia Nixon -- always my least favorite SATC character, btw -- is doing what she does best. She is assigning a role to her significant other because as an actress, that is perhaps how she sees her world. Do they, as individuals or as a couple, have a place in this community? Sure, if they want to be a part of it. If they choose not to, then that's ok too. I hope it works out for them, really. It's always nice to see couples...no matter how they i.d. or how they view each other in the world...work and do well.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

[Lusciousblondefemme]

Ok call me slow or something .. but I am still trying to figure out where this comment comes into being misogynist, homophobic or sexist?

So she called her partner a little man with boobs... who is that actually hurting?
You can not say that it is hurting the gay community because honestly I know alot of WOMEN who are butches who have boobs and when they get called Sir or young man they do not automatically say oh shit that was hurtful because you are homophobic, sexist or a misogynist.

Unfortunately in this day and age to sit and worry about what someone who is famous is saying about her partner is redundant. Sometimes I think that people look for things to explain the way society is and guess what there is nothing that can explain the way people think. I say that because not all people are the same. Everyone thinks the things they want because of their own experiences or what they were taught or showed through life. I actually laughed when I read that comment because I thought of how my ex always gets called young man. We always laugh about it because when she turns around and they see her chest they apologize profusely to her for the mistake.

Unfortunately when people look at a person and only see them from the neck up and see short hair yes they will assume that they are a man, but that doesn't automatically make them a horrible person.

I understand that maybe you do not like what was said but honestly that will have very little to do with the way people still think about gay people. That comment isn't going to make them change their ways and think something else.

We are fighting for our rights of equality and in that unfortunately sometimes you have to take the good with the bad this comment did not set the gay community back at all.

I actually think that it might make people think twice about automatically thinking that someone is a man when they take a first glance at them.

It brought to the front that fact that some women do have short hair and do ID as something other than a woman.

I mean if you are going to say anything then look into what others say..
I watched the Wanda Sykes special on HBO the other night ..
When she was describing her wife she said "I always say she is french, because it is better then saying she is white." Should we attack her for being prejudice to white people? No that is just how she describes her partner and as long as the partner is not insulted by what was said what right do we have to be upset by what she said?

My question is Would you feel the same way if you heard some gay man describe their partner as a fairy or the more flamboyant one? If you are willing to sit and discuss this silly comment are you willing to say that you would be the same with gay men as well. Because after all we are all in this fight together to be understood and excepted.

[Heart]

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!

[Emmy]

I have no doubt that some people, reading Nixon’s words, will conclude that butches, generally, are ‘men with boobs’. This inference, though, seems to rely upon an implicit denial of individual differences among queers; it betrays a deep ignorance, I think.

So, how should we deal with this? I don’t think the answer is to censor ourselves too heavily, when it comes to talking about ourselves and our loved ones, for fear that the quirks of our own dynamics will be illegitimately generalized to the whole queer population.

Rather, we should try to remind people, whenever possible, that we are, in fact, individuals- that, just like straight people, we’re beautifully, delightfully idiosyncratic.

[Corkey]

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!


Her words were about her lover, not about anyone else, you aren't in her head and as such cannot confirm any such phobia to her words. You take what you want to hear and run with all this hysteria, it's ludicrous. If her lover isn't insulted then why are you? It isn't your place to be insulted for her.

[Cyclopea]

Her words were about her lover, not about anyone else, you aren't in her head and as such cannot confirm any such phobia to her words. You take what you want to hear and run with all this hysteria, it's ludicrous. If her lover isn't insulted then why are you? It isn't your place to be insulted for her.

Why are women "ludicrous" and "hysterical" for wanting to discuss the limited language used to describe female masculinity?

SvyLYN69wmE

[Corkey]

Why are women "ludicrous" and "hysterical" for wanting to discuss the limited language used to describe female masculinity?

SvyLYN69wmE

This isn't worth a response. It's inflammatory. She isn't discussing she is insinuating. Frankly I'm done with it.

[Kobi]

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!

Hm. I dont understand the leap from how one persons description of her partner translates into these points.

Do you really believe saying a partner is a man with boobs or a man with a vagina really fits these points?

I am back to we, as a community, cannot separate out the issues for ourselves. So, is it fair to judge people on the periphery who make off the cuff comments about their own situation and to assign our values to their words? I think not.

[Dylan]

Heart,

I totally get what you're saying, and I agree with you 100% if we're speaking generally.

Where I disagree with you 100% is that this comment was made about an individual by an individual who has wayyyyyyyy more intimate knowledge of the person in question. We have absolutely no idea how this particular couple sees themselves.

If Mahhh Woman called me a man without a penis, or a woman with boobs, or whatever, it's between us, and has nada to do with how the rest of the trans community sees the comment. It's nunya's business how Mahhh Woman and I interact with one another and how we refer to eachother.

Now, if Nixon or Mahhh Woman said it about all butches, or all transfolks, I'd have a problem with it...but she didn't.

But yeah, I totally agree with you in a generally-speaking sense.


Not That Mahhh Opinion Matters At All To You, But Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

[SassyLeo]

I do agree that if her partner wants to be called this, then that it totally their business. I am not in the middle of their relationship, so maybe this is a pet name. Who knows. When it takes on the life that it has already...I think there is some responsibility...

*snip*

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

And I differ with you here...

I think she just needs a bit of education. Sure she is not Ellen, but as a Queer person in the media, making comments, whether they are personal to her partner or not, people read them. Just as we all have here, read them and had opinions. I feel like she has at least a tiny bit of responsibility (being in the media) to help educate. Now I am not asking her to become a spokesperson for all things Queer...but...

I sort of equate it to a sports figure. I believe a sports person, say Dennis Rodman, has responsibility to not do really stupid shit. I mean we all make mistakes, but kids look up to these people and when they do stupid shit, it makes an impression.

So, again, I'm not condoning what she said... just thinking that she needs a lesson in some Queer/Gender language.

[Soon]

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

Why the comparison to Anne Heche at all? Is it b/c this is her first queer relationship?

I'm not sure what the criteria is for activist, but she has spoken at rallies for marriage equality and has brought up the issue frequently when interviewed. Michelle Obama recently invited the both of them to the Mother's Day tea (Michelle Obama's Mothers Day Tea with Rosalynn Carter, Sex and the City Cynthia Nixon), even! ;) Marinoni is a well known education activist in NYC.

I agree with SassyLeo regarding some responsibility and some education on her part (regardless of whether this is fine as a descriptor b/w them, it does affect others' perceptions of what it is to be butch or a masculine presenting female (which, in her description, is not a woman).

[Dylan]

Why the comparison to Anne Heche at all? Is it b/c this is her first queer relationship?

I'm not sure what the criteria is for activist, but she has spoken at rallies for marriage equality and has brought up the issue frequently when interviewed. Michelle Obama recently invited the both of them to the Mother's Day tea (Michelle Obama's Mothers Day Tea with Rosalynn Carter, Sex and the City Cynthia Nixon), even! Marinoni is a well known education activist in NYC.

Honestly, I just don't keep up with the likes of Cynthia Nixon (or most 'celebrities' for that matter). Again, I could give a rip about how she refers to her partner.

Good for her for speaking up about marriage equality. That's more than some people do I guess.

And the reference to Anne Heche? They're both pale, pasty-white bad actresses with short hair who are equally insignificant in my life, and I don't really feel the 'impact' of their 'stardom' (used extremely loosely) as queers.

What? They're famous and went to a rally? Yippee! Who cares? Just 'cuz someone's queer doesn't mean they're an ambassador. It also doesn't mean they have some moral obligation to always say smart, informed, activisty things. Sometimes, some queers are just normal people who just live their gay lives and happen to do an interview for some gay magazine (which I also don't read, because it's just too full of ads and stories about gay men...oh, and because I'm a bad queer).

As for the girlfriend being an activist...yay! Never heard of her before today...won't remember her name tomorrow (in fact, I already don't remember her name). But we're not discussing her words anyways. I'm sure she'll get a smackdown if she ever refers to herself as a 'man with boobs'. I'm sure she'll be told how she's holding the whole (unidentified) community down.

Again, I agree 100% if we were speaking generally...but this was a comment about this person's partner that wasn't said in some angry way as an insult. If that's how they roll in their relationship...yippee again. Not my business to 'correct' them on that one. Had she said it about all butches/lesbians/whomever, I'd march right to nyc right now and pull her hair really hard and wag my big finger of shame right in her face. Same thing if someone I was actually invested in reading said it about 'all' butches/lesbians/whatnot...but to expect Cynthia Freakin' Nixon to 'represent' better? Please. We may as well take crazy Anne Heche at that point.


Dylan...wonders who wants to tell Mahhh Woman that she's personally oppressing all women by 'letting' me refer to her as Mahhh Woman (especially when I smack her ass)

[Soon]

Thanks for the response!

(parts of it cracked me up, even!)

[Dylan]

P.S. I think I might be more inclined to hold her more 'responsible' if she had been out or identified as queer for more than just a few years. It's kind of like expecting great driving strategies from a teenager. (this also kind of ties into the tie to Anne Heche)

I mean, if we were talking about Bea Arthur or Anyone who has actually been involved in the queer community for a bajillion years, then yeah, I would expect more from them. But...it's Cynthia Nixon...she's been out for what? a few years? I came out when I was 15...I don't think anyone expected great things from me in the way of queer politics three years later, yanno what I'm sayin'?


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Honestly, I just don't keep up with the likes of Cynthia Nixon (or most 'celebrities' for that matter). Again, I could give a rip about how she refers to her partner.

Good for her for speaking up about marriage equality. That's more than some people do I guess.

And the reference to Anne Heche? They're both pale, pasty-white bad actresses with short hair who are equally insignificant in my life, and I don't really feel the 'impact' of their 'stardom' (used extremely loosely) as queers.

What? They're famous and went to a rally? Yippee! Who cares? Just 'cuz someone's queer doesn't mean they're an ambassador. It also doesn't mean they have some moral obligation to always say smart, informed, activisty things. Sometimes, some queers are just normal people who just live their gay lives and happen to do an interview for some gay magazine (which I also don't read, because it's just too full of ads and stories about gay men...oh, and because I'm a bad queer).

As for the girlfriend being an activist...yay! Never heard of her before today...won't remember her name tomorrow (in fact, I already don't remember her name). But we're not discussing her words anyways. I'm sure she'll get a smackdown if she ever refers to herself as a 'man with boobs'. I'm sure she'll be told how she's holding the whole (unidentified) community down.

Again, I agree 100% if we were speaking generally...but this was a comment about this person's partner that wasn't said in some angry way as an insult. If that's how they roll in their relationship...yippee again. Not my business to 'correct' them on that one. Had she said it about all butches/lesbians/whomever, I'd march right to nyc right now and pull her hair really hard and wag my big finger of shame right in her face. Same thing if someone I was actually invested in reading said it about 'all' butches/lesbians/whatnot...but to expect Cynthia Freakin' Nixon to 'represent' better? Please. We may as well take crazy Anne Heche at that point.


Dylan...wonders who wants to tell Mahhh Woman that she's personally oppressing all women by 'letting' me refer to her as Mahhh Woman (especially when I smack her ass)

On this note: Paris Hilton was the Grand Marshal of the WeHo Pride Parade. Do we expect her to espouse our politics? God. I. Hope. Not.

[Jack]

I wonder if either of them, or any of their friends, or aquantances, or associates, or family , or agents, access this site ? Or any BF site which might be currently discussing this issue.

I wonder what THEY would make of this thread?

I wonder , would THEY respond. Would THEY clarify ?

Would they defend, would they respond , Would they learn something ?

Would they even have to ?

Would it help ?

I would love it if they strolled in right now, sat on the couch with us all and took this to the next stage.

[Bit]

I went to the Advocate and read the whole article. Here's the part which seems most relevant to me.

If there was any surprise among Nixon’s fans upon seeing her with Marinoni, it was that she’s clearly different than the women we’re used to seeing Nixon with. Marinoni dresses in men’s clothes. She looks butch. She’d clearly be the odd woman out at brunch with Miranda, Samantha, Charlotte, and Carrie.

“She’s basically a short man with boobs,” Nixon says, laughing.

http://www.advocate.com/Print_Issue/Cover_Stories/Cynthia_Nixon_is_More_Than_Just_Sex/ (http://www.advocate.com/Print_Issue/Cover_Stories/Cynthia_Nixon_is_More_Than_Just_Sex/)

It seems to me the interviewer led Nixon to this statement; to me the interviewer was saying, "most people see you as this character in a show, and they expect you to be seen with other similar characters... what do you think people will see when you are out with your partner?"

I read her response as saying, "most people will see a short man with boobs." Now I get it that she actually said "she's basically a...." but I think that was clumsy language. When people are laughing, they're not necessarily careful how they phrase their sentences, yanno? It really seems to me that she meant that people would expect to see her with stereotypically beautiful actresses, and would think she was instead with a man who had boobs.

Because that's the way I read the article, it also seems to me that she herself was not categorizing her partner as much as she was commenting on the way other people categorize her partner. People have categorized some of my exes in a similar way; I mean seriously, how can a person look at someone wearing women's earrings and a pink women's sweatshirt, someone who has a nicely prominent female chest, and say "sir"? How can they continue to say "sir" even after the person speaks in a clearly female voice?

So if this is the way Nixon intended to be understood, then I have a shared experience with her because I also have seen other people assume that a lesbian is a man with boobs. It was diminishing to the lesbian in question, and she was quite vocal about hating it... but I have also known other lesbians, especially Butches, who have had similar experiences and have just laughed it off.

[BullDog]

Heart,

I totally get what you're saying, and I agree with you 100% if we're speaking generally.

Where I disagree with you 100% is that this comment was made about an individual by an individual who has wayyyyyyyy more intimate knowledge of the person in question. We have absolutely no idea how this particular couple sees themselves.

If Mahhh Woman called me a man without a penis, or a woman with boobs, or whatever, it's between us, and has nada to do with how the rest of the trans community sees the comment. It's nunya's business how Mahhh Woman and I interact with one another and how we refer to eachother.

Now, if Nixon or Mahhh Woman said it about all butches, or all transfolks, I'd have a problem with it...but she didn't.

But yeah, I totally agree with you in a generally-speaking sense.


Not That Mahhh Opinion Matters At All To You, But Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

P.S. I'd probably also feel differently if this comment had come from an activist in the community or someone of that stature...an actual 'representative' of the community...but it's just Cynthia Nixon. Like someone else mentioned, she's about as important to me as Anne Heche.

OK, I believe I get what you are saying Dylan, but the thing is there are hundred of headlines reading

"Nixon calls her Lesbian Lover (and variations thereof) A Man Without Boobs."

So if a famous partner of a trans man was in an interview and said about her/his/pronoun of choice partner "he's basically a man without a dick, and what I love about him is his transness."

So all the trans people out there would get to see this headline:
"Famous Person X calls Trans Lover a Man Without A Dick

How is that going to make transmen and transwomen feel? Are they just going to shrug it off and say oh well that's between the two.

I'm not trans but personally wouldn't want to see a headline like that over and over one bit.

[Bit]

I wonder if either of them, or any of their friends, or aquantances, or associates, or family , or agents, access this site ? Or any BF site which might be currently discussing this issue.

I wonder what THEY would make of this thread?

As far as I could tell, Jack, they don't actually identify as Butch and Femme, so they might not come here at all. But wouldn't it be interesting if they did come to the Planet?

[Jack]

As far as I could tell, Jack, they don't actually identify as Butch and Femme, so they might not come here at all. But wouldn't it be interesting if they did come to the Planet?

Yes, it would be interesting and we would give them a warm and friendly welcome !

[SuperFemme]

I'm still struggling to understand how the comment values men over women.

Is it the order? That she said "short man" before "boobs"? Because I don't think short men in general are a hot commodity. Look at Tom Cruise and how he wears shoe lifts and is all picky about his height being depicted.

I'm not being snarky, I am really just trying to understand how the mere mention of man in the same breathe as woman values man and devalues woman.

Can somebody walk me through it?

[Admin]

Her words were about her lover, not about anyone else, you aren't in her head and as such cannot confirm any such phobia to her words. You take what you want to hear and run with all this hysteria, it's ludicrous. If her lover isn't insulted then why are you? It isn't your place to be insulted for her.


Hey Corkey,

Just wanted to clarify a little something here. Words like "hysteria" and "ludicrous" in this context and discussion can feel like a personal attack when we are referencing how a female person perceives the situation.
I don't think you were saying that a specific person was "hysterical" or "ludicrous" but I do want us all to be mindful of using loaded language in these discussions.

So far, this discussion has been really good and I'm glad to see folks expressing their opinions in healthy ways. Let's keep it on that level. :)

Thanks all,
Admin

[BullDog]

I'm still struggling to understand how the comment values men over women.

Is it the order? That she said "short man" before "boobs"? Because I don't think short men in general are a hot commodity. Look at Tom Cruise and how he wears shoe lifts and is all picky about his height being depicted.

I'm not being snarky, I am really just trying to understand how the mere mention of man in the same breathe as woman values man and devalues woman.

Can somebody walk me through it?

Masculine women are not men. No one that I know of wants to be reduced to body parts- boobs, vagina, etc.

Her partner refers to her as a woman in multiple instances. I don't know why people are trying to cast doubt on that.

Butches have been told all their lives they are wanna be men and ugly women.

[SuperFemme]

Masculine women are not men. No one that I know of wants to be reduced to body parts- boobs, vagina, etc.

Her partner refers to her as a woman in multiple instances. I don't know why people are trying to cast doubt on that.

Butches have been told all their lives they are wanna be men and ugly women.

I can see how that is hurtful.

I'm off to give it more thought.

[Bit]

I'm not being snarky, I am really just trying to understand how the mere mention of man in the same breathe as woman values man and devalues woman.

Can somebody walk me through it?

If I understand right, it's that the word "man" was used to describe a woman.

When people describe a woman who is not stereotypically feminine/beautiful as "a man" then the message that comes across is that the only proper way to be a woman is to be stereotypically feminine/beautiful--in other words, if you aren't clearly and easily labeled "feminine" you must be a man.

The problem is, that message leaves out all the other ways of being a woman, including being a Butch woman. You could say that it steals a lot of space from being a woman and labels it all "man." That message makes "man" worth more than "woman" and that's why it is misogynist.

Hope that helps!

[SuperFemme]

If I understand right, it's that the word "man" was used to describe a woman.

When people describe a woman who is not stereotypically feminine/beautiful as "a man" then the message that comes across is that the only proper way to be a woman is to be stereotypically feminine/beautiful--in other words, if you aren't clearly and easily labeled "feminine" you must be a man.

The problem is, that message leaves out all the other ways of being a woman, including being a Butch woman. You could say that it steals a lot of space from being a woman and labels it all "man." That message makes "man" worth more than "woman" and that's why it is misogynist.

Hope that helps!



Thanks, Kind of. I'm really trying to see it. I need to close my eyeballs and ponder it quietly I think.

[Dylan]

OK, I believe I get what you are saying Dylan, but the thing is there are hundred of headlines reading

"Nixon calls her Lesbian Lover (and variations thereof) A Man Without Boobs."

So if a famous partner of a trans man was in an interview and said about her/his/pronoun of choice partner "he's basically a man without a dick, and what I love about him is his transness."

So all the trans people out there would get to see this headline:
"Famous Person X calls Trans Lover a Man Without A Dick

How is that going to make transmen and transwomen feel? Are they just going to shrug it off and say oh well that's between the two.

I'm not trans but personally wouldn't want to see a headline like that over and over one bit.

You've brought this analogy up umpteen times in this thread, so I'll answer you from my ME place. But shock of all shocks, I'll bet 1/2 of Transdom would disagree with me (if they actually cared about Cynthia Nixon's commentary).

If Famous X person were on the same level in which I place Cynthia Nixon, then I would, as a transperson, not give a rat's ass about the comment either. Is Famous X person talking about his/her/per's partner in the same context as Cynthia Nixon's comment? Then I don't really give a shit.

Is he/she/per talking about all of transmen? Then I give a rip. Are we talking Cynthia Nixon or SomeoneOfSubstanceThatActuallyMatters? Because I care about the latter but not so much about the former. Need proof? No one flipped out in this thread when Superfemme discussed her Beloved's 'boobs'. And I actually care what Superfemme has to say much moreso than Cynthia Nixon.

And here's the other thing...the ONLY place I've seen this headline over and over and over is when I googled it after Heart started this thread. I haven't heard hide nor hair of this comment until this thread was started...nor WOULD I have heard about it as I just don't give a rat's ass about Cynthia Freakin' Nixon or her partner. This comment certainly wasn't slapped across any of the newspapers I saw this morning. Haven't heard about it plastered all over the radio. Haven't seen it at all on the television. It wasn't worthy enough to make it on yahoo's front page. Seriously, where is it that this headline is just being blasted over and over besides google or another search engine? What? TMZ? That show is not allowed to be played in this house.

There's REAL queer things going on in the world that actually affect me on a personal level, and NONE of them have squat to do with some 15 minutes of fame 'celebrity' who's run her course (another Anne Heche connection).

It's funny to me that we have this whole breakdown of this one little sound-bytey snippet, but why have we NEVER broken down how vapid and sexist the show is that made this woman famous? Because there's a fucking conversation worth having.


Seriously, WHO CARES How This Woman Refers To Her Partner?,
Dylan

And just to add...again, this woman has been out for a couple/few years. She's not going to have done the same research someone who's been out for a bajillion years. She's also probably (assumption) more insulated from 'average' queers given her celebrity status. I mean, it's not like she can comfortably just waltz into tons of queer space with a myriad of different queers. Again, I take seriously very little of what 'apprentice' queers have to say.

[BullDog]

OK thanks for the reply Dylan.

----------

All the comments being made about Nixon's partner out in cyberspace are that she is ugly and looks like a 12 year old boy. How. Original.

[Dylan]

All the comments being made about Nixon's partner out in cyberspace are that she is ugly and looks like a 12 year old boy. How. Original.

Yeah, I read those comments too. I have to say, the commentary from the morons pissed me off.


Total Crap,
Dylan

[BullDog]

It certainly is a hurtful comment for me to see (even if wasn't said about me personally), but I do wish the couple and their family well.

http://cdn.buzznet.com/media-cdn/jj1/headlines/2009/05/cynthia-nixon-engaged-christine-marinoni.jpg

[Cyclopea]

They are a cute couple, aint they?
http://outprofessionals.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/cynthia_nixon2.jpg
:)

[BullDog]

They are a cute couple, aint they?
http://outprofessionals.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/cynthia_nixon2.jpg
:)

Yep, gotta love the redheads!

[WILDCAT]

... not to throw a monkey wrench into this very "lovely" conversation...

BUT, I was out tonight at my local VETS CLUB and Jeopardy was on - and someone commented on the one "GUY" on the show for having man boobs...

:|

So, what does THAT have to do with "anything"?!! Hmmmm...
__

To me, the argument that goes on and on and on here, is so very SAD.

And depending on a multitude of factors, leads us to discourse and then of COURSE, against each other........... and CLEARLY there are ally forces in tact... We'd be fucking liars to admit that is NOT TRUE!

Regardless, we go through the same ROMP over and over. And we DO wonder sometimes why we call ourselves "community", when clearly we are not even close to being kind and/or accepting to/with each other.

It DOES remind me of the years when the gay men and gay women could NOT get along - and for it was the tragic event of AIDS that brought us all close together (as did the transgendered community).

And someone mentioned, if WE cannot get along here how can anyone else respect us, for our differences. OR/and... if we cannot accept what folks say publicly about us, and even FROM OUR OWN COMMUNITY (and there is no such thing as "perfection", it's LIVE AND LEARN BABY!), THEN YES, we are going to have to get set back YEARS for this lack of understanding when someone words things a certain way. Does it negate the "new generation" though?

Hell no! Actually, FUCK NO.

It is NOT about that. Can folks just respect that someone like Heart is standing up for OUR rights and NOT take it fucking personal? She has already said... "FINE HOWEVER, WHATEVER anyone wants to ID as..." But, really, many ARE missing the point... SOMEONE LIKE ME, LIKE IT OR NOT... as a proud lesbian BUTCH is getting the shaft. WHY take that personal if it does NOT belong to you? I don't understand that.

It seems like BOTH "SIDES" (which really SHOULD there should BE SIDES??!!) are taking things personal and being defensive, AND........... most importantly - NOT SUPPORTING EACH OTHER AS PART OF A COMMUNITY!!

You know, I am starting to wonder, IS THERE A COMMMUNITY HERE?

Gracias,
WILDCAT

[PapaC]

You know, I am starting to wonder, IS THERE A COMMMUNITY HERE?

Gracias,
WILDCAT

Of course there is, Wildcat. :) and with every community comes disagreements. I love the passion I see here (on all 'sides' if you will).

My thoughts get scrambled around all of this. So I can only go at this from a 'me' perspective/observations.

Language and construction of language is challenge even for those of us participating in some form of a queer community.. be it online or real time.

I think of the phrase as an unfortunate sound bite, in a sea of consistent, persistent sound bite(s) that attempt to 'explain' the appearance of a masculine woman. In this case, until Christine specifies anything else, I will see her/respect her as a woman.

There's a lot of erasing of butch women in masse media. Would anyone like to dispute this?

For example, when has there ever been a commercial for female hygiene that included a masculine-appearing woman? Or ANY commercial where there's a masculine woman?

There was an ad that ran in Canada for AutoTrader about 4 years ago. I encourage the curious to click through and read some of the comments.
TwIIKuPpIpA

here, I'll help:

"Lesbian? That was just a normal Canadian guy." (that response got 2 thumbs up )

"Best Canadian Commercial Ever! This is funny, it kinda looks like my Aunt!!! (She isn't a lesbian though" (nice assumption that she's a lesbian.not... is it because masculine women ONLY exist in the lesbian community? (as a former married woman, living as a straight woman, I find that equally erasing)

Face it, many people reduce and form their opinions/assumptions on sound bites and clips and see nothing else.

Some uninformed, unsophisticated folks who have some understanding of my transition assumed I had 'a dick sewn on'. Why? "Well, all you gotta do is just look at him." So in this guy's mind.... there was NO WAY I could *possibly* be as masculine looking as I was (post-hormones) without that god almighty dick. ... I'm not sure if it's a polar opposite to this or analogous but let me know. :)

I'm curious, and maybe some Oprah fans can jump in. But in the past year she's interviewed a couple of transmen, including Thomas who gave birth. There's been discussions and interviews with other transgendered folks, intersexed folks, etc. I *am* pleased to see our stories coming up more and more. Chaz is now in that category.

But, when was there ever an interview with a woman on Oprah where self identified butch woman had a change to discuss her story as a butch Woman with a capital W?

Finally, I want to end on this very chilling point. A factual observation that can't be denied:

Most of us are aware of about three main butch/femme related sites, and a lot of us have participated in at least two of those sites if not all three. On one site, I made the observation about a year ago that the keywords used as part of the description for the site did not include "butch woman" or "butch women" anywhere. It remains that way *to this day*.

Of the three, which one lists "Butch Women", "Lesbian Women", "Gay Women", "Femme Women" etc.. ?

You know the answer: ButchFemmePlanet.com ; in fact, in the keywords alone, "woman" or "women" is mentioned 10 times.

The other two sites I'm thinking about: not a single "woman" reference ANYwhere in the keywords.

That fact alone, in my humble opinion is equally disconcerting as Cynthia's comments about her partner, if not moreso, because I do believe as self-appointed leaders, activists, allies, etc... I do expect much more care and awareness in this matter.

Oh, and lastly? Of the two that DON'T specify "women" in the keywords, on one of those sites "male" is mentioned twice (granted, in the context of 'Female to Male' and 'Male to Female')

If anyone is curious and would like more information or would learn how to spot this, let me know. I know this techno-geeky stuff can be a bit ... daunting to some. I am personally a stickler for this information because I know that keywords and descriptions are perpetuated across the internet via search engines and blogs and what not. A lot of the time, search engines and directories is how we find each other. (Bulldog, Linus, back me up! LOL)

It might look like I'm nit picking. You bet I am. I am because I hate seeing my past, and my friends, and my allies consistently erased or misunderstood and/or under represented especially within our own back yard.

K, I'm outta steam.

Thank you again, Heart for opening this discussion.

[Toughy]

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!

This is worth repeating. I am a little surprized at many of the responses.........but I guess I shouldn't be.......after all butch=man.

I do appreciate that on this website butch includes women as far as the founders believe.....not found (as Chris pointed out) on the other two sites. And apparently lots of folks still don't see how harmful the language of 'short man with boobs' is in defining what woman means.

Thanks Heart.........as always you speak up about how the definition of woman needs to be more inclusive.

[BullDog]

Chris, my fellow geek, you know I will always back you up! Yes, I compared the meta keywords for BFP and another butch femme site. Butch woman and femme woman are listed for BFP, not the other site. The other site does list masculine identified butches as one of their keywords, no other qualifiers for butch.

Keywords are how people find things on the internet, so yes it makes a big difference. It also makes a big difference to me to see the effort of inclusiveness being put forth by the owners, Admins and moderators of this website.

One of the several things that has really irritated me about this conversation is this casting into doubt whether Christine Marinoni is a woman or not. All it takes is a 30 second Google search to find out. I notice no one was questioning whether Cynthia Nixon was a woman or not.

Anyway this what Cynthia had to say in an interview a few years ago:

"In terms of my sexual orientation, I don't really feel that I changed," she says. "I don't feel any different than I did before. I don't feel like there was some hidden part of myself that I wasn't aware of.

"I had been with men all my life and I had never met a woman I had fallen in love with before. But when I did it didn't seem so strange.

"I don't define myself. I'm just a woman in love with another woman."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-566486/The-lesbian-love-affair-WONT-Sex-City.html#ixzz0njPIPyhC

They're both women. They are partners. They are raising their children. One of them has a masculine appearance and wears male clothing. She's a woman.

[Medusa]

Chris, my fellow geek, you know I will always back you up! Yes, I compared the meta keywords for BFP and another butch femme site. Butch woman and femme woman are listed for BFP, not the other site. The other site does list masculine identified butches as one of their keywords, no other qualifiers for butch.

Keywords are how people find things on the internet, so yes it makes a big difference. It also makes a big difference to me to see the effort of inclusiveness being put forth by the owners, Admins and moderators of this website.

One of the several things that has really irritated me about this conversation is this casting into doubt whether Christine Marinoni is a woman or not. All it takes is a 30 second Google search to find out. I notice no one was questioning whether Cynthia Nixon was a woman or not.

Anyway this what Cynthia had to say in an interview a few years ago:

"In terms of my sexual orientation, I don't really feel that I changed," she says. "I don't feel any different than I did before. I don't feel like there was some hidden part of myself that I wasn't aware of.

"I had been with men all my life and I had never met a woman I had fallen in love with before. But when I did it didn't seem so strange.

"I don't define myself. I'm just a woman in love with another woman."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-566486/The-lesbian-love-affair-WONT-Sex-City.html#ixzz0njPIPyhC

They're both women. They are partners. They are raising their children. One of them has a masculine appearance and wears male clothing. She's a woman.


Im SO glad you found these quotes Bully!

This is kinda the crux of what I was arguing earlier. Self-Identity.

These quotes refer to Cynthia Nixon identifying her partner as a woman. She has also (now in the article we are discussing) identified her partner as "basically a man with boobs".

I haven't seen anything where her *partner* self-identified. (although I will totally concede that it is highly unlikely that her partner identifies herseld as a "man with boobs") :)

And don't get me wrong Bully, I *do* get what you are saying and love that we are all kinda teasing this thing out together.

This conversation IS important, even if we only reiterate to one another how we want to be seen and discussed within the context of this community. :) I think that's valuable.

[BullDog]

It's true we only hear from Cynthia Nixon- she's the celebrity. The entire fabric of Christine Marinoni's life that we see is as an out masculine lesbian/queer woman. It's not just about a personal identity label. It's how she lives her life and how she deals with everyone's reactions to her.

In many ways she has a textbook lesbian bio, lol. She discovered feminism in college, opened a lesbian bar, became a teacher and education activist and is now partnered with a woman and their two children. I want to honor and respect her path. It's very similar to mine, as a masculine appearing, out woman. That's how I travel through the world too.

[Gemme]

Everyone's not actually...

ETA: Not that everyone should be... I was making a comparison in the severity of reaction to the hypothetical situation I put forth and the situation at hand.

I stand by what I said, the reactions to the situation of a woman (to which Cynthia refers to her partner as) being called a man, as opposed to a male being referred to as a woman, in the context of these discussions in our community aren't comparable.

Metro

After four pages of dialogue, I'll give it to you that not "everybody" is discussing it, but those that are are pretty vocal about it.

*grin*


Sassy, yeah she appears to be newly out. I don't hate the messenger just the message. And also the fact that such tired, sexist, misogynist and homophobic remarks are being defended.

To quote Heart:

The message over and over is masculine women/butch women- suck it up, laugh it off. Not so when derogatory comments are made towards other masculine gender identities in our community.

I can see better now how the comment made is hurtful. I do not, however, believe it was intentionally so.

If she's a man with boobs she must be able to stroll around central park shirtless enjoying the sun on her double D's without getting so much as a second glance.

:)


She'd get a second glance, but I believe there's still a law on the books of NY that would allow that.

*thinks about dredging up FYI thread*

Bingo. Yes, I care about the language/intentions/limitations/biases and assumptions that exist around female identities. And I'm pretty amazed at some of expressions of indifference, that make this just a personal matter. Would you have the same attitude if say, Chaz Bono's partner referred to him publicly as "a man with a vagina?" Would that be seen as just a personal, off-the-cuff, cute attempt at explaining the identity of a transman?

I also take the intentions of the speaker into account. The intentions don't appear to be hurtful. Clumsy, yes. Awkward, yes. Limiting, yes. Unfortunate, yes.

One thing that frustrates me and makes my head throb in these discussions of this caliber is that those explaining their viewpoint don't stick to the situation at hand. They drag up other circumstances....What ifs?....that don't apply to the exact discussion at hand.

I acknowledge that I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box but please don't veer off with a situation that hasn't occurred just to make your (general your) current point.

Heart, I'm not necessarily addressing you specifically about this. Your post here is an example. :)

Here's how its sexist: it implies that a woman can't be masculine, that to be masculine you can only be described as a man. It implies that women can only be feminine. That's a sexist viewpoint in that it limits the definition of woman.

Here's how its homophobic: it implies that a gay woman is really a man wanna-be, a man with boobs, rather than what she is - a lesbian, dyke, queer, butch woman. That's a homophobic viewpoint in that it denigrates queer female identities

Here's how its misogynistic: it puts the value/emphasis on male (masculine equals man/male) and devalues the femaleness inherent in the identity. That's a misogynistic viewpoint in that it devalues femaleness and privileges maleness,

Voila!

I appreciate you breaking it down like this. It's much more helpful to me than creating fictional situations.

Honestly, I just don't keep up with the likes of Cynthia Nixon (or most 'celebrities' for that matter). Again, I could give a rip about how she refers to her partner.

Good for her for speaking up about marriage equality. That's more than some people do I guess.

And the reference to Anne Heche? They're both pale, pasty-white bad actresses with short hair who are equally insignificant in my life, and I don't really feel the 'impact' of their 'stardom' (used extremely loosely) as queers.

What? They're famous and went to a rally? Yippee! Who cares? Just 'cuz someone's queer doesn't mean they're an ambassador. It also doesn't mean they have some moral obligation to always say smart, informed, activisty things. Sometimes, some queers are just normal people who just live their gay lives and happen to do an interview for some gay magazine (which I also don't read, because it's just too full of ads and stories about gay men...oh, and because I'm a bad queer).

As for the girlfriend being an activist...yay! Never heard of her before today...won't remember her name tomorrow (in fact, I already don't remember her name). But we're not discussing her words anyways. I'm sure she'll get a smackdown if she ever refers to herself as a 'man with boobs'. I'm sure she'll be told how she's holding the whole (unidentified) community down.

Again, I agree 100% if we were speaking generally...but this was a comment about this person's partner that wasn't said in some angry way as an insult. If that's how they roll in their relationship...yippee again. Not my business to 'correct' them on that one. Had she said it about all butches/lesbians/whomever, I'd march right to nyc right now and pull her hair really hard and wag my big finger of shame right in her face. Same thing if someone I was actually invested in reading said it about 'all' butches/lesbians/whatnot...but to expect Cynthia Freakin' Nixon to 'represent' better? Please. We may as well take crazy Anne Heche at that point.


Dylan...wonders who wants to tell Mahhh Woman that she's personally oppressing all women by 'letting' me refer to her as Mahhh Woman (especially when I smack her ass)

You've brought this analogy up umpteen times in this thread, so I'll answer you from my ME place. But shock of all shocks, I'll bet 1/2 of Transdom would disagree with me (if they actually cared about Cynthia Nixon's commentary).

If Famous X person were on the same level in which I place Cynthia Nixon, then I would, as a transperson, not give a rat's ass about the comment either. Is Famous X person talking about his/her/per's partner in the same context as Cynthia Nixon's comment? Then I don't really give a shit.

Is he/she/per talking about all of transmen? Then I give a rip. Are we talking Cynthia Nixon or SomeoneOfSubstanceThatActuallyMatters? Because I care about the latter but not so much about the former. Need proof? No one flipped out in this thread when Superfemme discussed her Beloved's 'boobs'. And I actually care what Superfemme has to say much moreso than Cynthia Nixon.

And here's the other thing...the ONLY place I've seen this headline over and over and over is when I googled it after Heart started this thread. I haven't heard hide nor hair of this comment until this thread was started...nor WOULD I have heard about it as I just don't give a rat's ass about Cynthia Freakin' Nixon or her partner. This comment certainly wasn't slapped across any of the newspapers I saw this morning. Haven't heard about it plastered all over the radio. Haven't seen it at all on the television. It wasn't worthy enough to make it on yahoo's front page. Seriously, where is it that this headline is just being blasted over and over besides google or another search engine? What? TMZ? That show is not allowed to be played in this house.

There's REAL queer things going on in the world that actually affect me on a personal level, and NONE of them have squat to do with some 15 minutes of fame 'celebrity' who's run her course (another Anne Heche connection).

It's funny to me that we have this whole breakdown of this one little sound-bytey snippet, but why have we NEVER broken down how vapid and sexist the show is that made this woman famous? Because there's a fucking conversation worth having.


Seriously, WHO CARES How This Woman Refers To Her Partner?,
Dylan

And just to add...again, this woman has been out for a couple/few years. She's not going to have done the same research someone who's been out for a bajillion years. She's also probably (assumption) more insulated from 'average' queers given her celebrity status. I mean, it's not like she can comfortably just waltz into tons of queer space with a myriad of different queers. Again, I take seriously very little of what 'apprentice' queers have to say.


"Apprentice" queers. I like that and what you are saying here.

I feel as if all kinds of blame is being assigned here and for what?

How many times are we told "be nice to the newbies", "don't scare the newbies; they are learning", or something along those lines. Okay, maybe that's just me. :blink:

She's new in our world and yet, because her comment was made in a public way, we are in lynch mob mentality? How can we expect her, or any person who hasn't lived for a long time in our world, to say things the way we want them to be said. Again, we can't pick and choose the way our community is shown. It would be nice but is unrealistic.

I understand the comment's hurtful potential and reality. I understand that if it was twisted and spoken about other members of our community how upset THOSE members would be. I also think that raising those situations causes unnecessary distress, but hey, that's just me. I like to address things as they come, for the most part. I plan for tornadoes or earthquakes; not for the occasional hurtful comment made from someone who doesn't affect my day to day existence.

I do, however, think they are a lovely couple, I hope they make it and I hope that, as time goes by, both grow to be strong forces in our community, so that Dylan can remember their names.

[BullDog]

No one has attacked Cynthia Nixon. I agree it was an unfortunate remark. That's not the point. Heart has already explained what her point was multiple times.

Why are masculine women almost always "othered" as men? Why can't masculine women be honored and respected as women?

It's not just Cynthia Nixon's remark. This thread is a perfect illustration.

[Jett]

I have no fricken idea who Cynthia X is, it's the first time I've heard her name. I don't care, at all, either. I've never watched Sex in the City, maybe the sexism people are saying it represents is discussion worthy... but I think conversations about how butch women are portrayed and reduced to a short man with boobs is worth having.

I don't think Heart wanted to discuss at all the repercussions of what Cynthia-in-particular says on the queer community, or critique her- but rather used the comment as a kick-start to discuss how female masculinity and butch women are thought of as men, portrayed male wannabes, dogged and stereotyped due to a patriarchal society full of sexism, misogyny... homophobia. (I don't know exactly where she wanted it to go but that's what I'm getting)

She's said several times it's not about Cynthia OR how here partner ID's but for some reason that's getting ignored, derailed and buried in favor of "who cares what Cynthia Nixon said, and there's more worthy conversations to be had" basically.

It's not just about "Cynthia's" comment, it's all the comments, comments that followed it by the general public... (manlady, wonder if her mustache is red, she's a TG'd Mason Reese, not a woman, 16 yr old boy etc etc etc).... it's about the bullshit butch women get nailed with in real life... how masculine women, female masculinty is reduced essentially to a "a short man with boobs".

I don't want to be seen as a man, at this point in my life I don't even want to pass and the general misinformation's that butches want to look like, emulate or want to be men, is worthy of examining and the whys seem like a worthy conversation here in BFP, to me.

I don't care who doesn't... but obviously members of the butch femme planet who are affected by it do, that should be enough.

Heart, thanks for starting this convo, and thanks to all that have cared enough to keep it going.

Peace,
Metro

[betenoire]

Yesterday when I was posting I was getting ready for work. I actually typed with one hand and brushed my hair with the other, then typed with one hand and did up my bra with the other. So I didn't have time to expound.

Here we go.

I agree that her wordage is unfortunate. But I also think, that since she is -not- a member of the Butch+Femme community (I don't mean online, I mean from my understanding of her words that is not her ID or how she views her relationship) it's unsurprising that she didn't have a more savvy way to voice what she wanted to say. And, again, while her wordage was unfortunate it's very -very- clear that she wasn't making a sweeping generalisation about the Butch (upper case B, here) community at large.

Only very stupid people are going to read her comments and think "omg! I was so right! Butch women just want to be men!" because only very stupid people think it's appropriate/sensible/sane to paint entire groups of people with one brush like that. And those very stupid people would have thought what they thought no matter what Nixon had said - even if Nixon had given a 14 page essay on gender, those very stupid people would have been like "omg she is ugly and mannish!".

In fact - we have no way of knowing what all Nixon had to say on the subject. She could very well have said some well-thought-out and sensitive things, which were largely ignored by the Advocate (which is a shitty magazine for very stupid Queer people) in favour of printing the easypeasy pat one-liner. Are we also cross with the Advocate for so irresponsibly printing something that would cause all of this kerfuffle?

I don't believe for a second that she thinks that the only way to be appropriately female is to be feminine. I also don't believe for a second that any of the people in this thread who don't think what she said is worth all this uproar think that the only legitimate way to be female is to be feminine.

But I do have a question. If comparing a masculine female to a man is upsetting...is it also upsetting when someone refers to their (female identified) lover as "Daddy" "Sir" "My Husband" etc. I get that those words do not mean "man" to us in this community - but I also get that those are words that have been used to describe men in various positions...well, for as long as those words have existed. Should we as a community reject those words? Should we be making up new words?

I'm not trying to be a shit-disturber by asking that question. I genuinely can't wrap my head around how one thing is diminishing and the other is perfectly acceptable. We cannot have it both ways.

[BullDog]

Once again, as we repeat ourselves over and over:

Dusa - it's not about the individual identity for me or about the intimate relationship. I'm not concerned with their identities or their relationship. For me, it's about the paucity of language and images, the assumption that only men/male can be masculine, and all that that implies about views of women's genders and sexualities in society, culture and communities, including queer ones. Even if Nixon's partner is not a woman, the statment is minimizing and dismissive of the reality and complexity of butch women's lives -- because her partner is certainly seen in the world as a woman. Except now she is seen as a man with boobs.

I don't hold Nixon responsible for the fact that there are such narrow visions of what women are, and so few ways to describe the lives of women that fall outside of cultural norms, but it saddens me that she has to use this kind of tired, (and yes, sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic) remark to describe her partner.

Heart

[betenoire]

hahaha....he may wear boots also.

I am wondering why nobody (especially those who are of the "it is unacceptable to every compare a masculine woman to a man" camp) bothered to point out how uncool it is to just go about and defacto refer to every Butch (or butch) person on the planet as "he" regardless of what their own preferred pronoun is. Because -that- is one of my own pet-peeves.

Once again, as we repeat ourselves over and over:

Well then how about I repeat my question, since you clearly did not actually read my post just now.


But I do have a question. If comparing a masculine female to a man is upsetting...is it also upsetting when someone refers to their (female identified) lover as "Daddy" "Sir" "My Husband" etc. I get that those words do not mean "man" to us in this community - but I also get that those are words that have been used to describe men in various positions...well, for as long as those words have existed. Should we as a community reject those words? Should we be making up new words?

I'm not trying to be a shit-disturber by asking that question. I genuinely can't wrap my head around how one thing is diminishing and the other is perfectly acceptable. We cannot have it both ways.

[Heart]

For those who keep making this about CN, and saying that we have no idea what her personal identity and relationship is all about, you sure seem to know a lot about whether she understands BF lingo, queer culture, etc. Who the heck knows? But she is a smart, successful woman, who has supported both feminist and queer causes, and who has been in a queer relationship for quite a while now in New York City. She and her partner do not live under a rock. In light of that, I personally think her remark was careless and stupid and minimizing of masculine/butch women. I also think it probably was off-the-cuff and unintentional.

BUT as I've said 50 times in this thread, in fact I said it in my very first 2-sentence post, my point was how routine that kind of minimization is, how little we even notice it, and then how ferociously we justify it when its pointed out. This thread bears that out. We would never see this kind of response if a transman's identity was belittled, in fact I have seen the partners of transmen, often femmes, get called on the carpet and lectured about the ways that they need to uphold their partners identities.

So men's identities are delicate and valuable and must be preserved, but women's identities get no such regard. Interesting.

Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband."

Heart

[betenoire]

Anyhoo -- I think Bete asked a good question. It may be a different thread, but it's a good question. Bete - I think those words you mentioned are often erotically charged, which makes them quite different than routinely referring to butches as men I, however, would never call my female butch partner my "husband."

Heart

What about "Dude" "Bro" "Man"? (Man as in "Don't bogart that can, man" not as in MAN) "Bud" even, as far as I'm concerned, has male connotations. That shit gets thrown around constantly, and nobody bats an eye. I still fail to see how this is any different.

[Heart]

What about "Dude" "Bro" "Man"? (Man as in "Don't bogart that can, man" not as in MAN) "Bud" even, as far as I'm concerned, has male connotations. That shit gets thrown around constantly, and nobody bats an eye. I still fail to see how this is any different.

Hmmm... I kinda feel now like you''re just baiting me. I guess if you don't see the diff between generic "hay man," or " hey dude," and the way that CN attempted to explain/define her masculine female partner to the world as a "man with boobs" -- well, there sure isn't anything I'm gonna say that will make you see the difference.

By-the-way, recently when a male id'ed butch who is organizing on behalf of other butches of various identities referred to "brotherhood," I asked him if his organizing included "sisterhood." He allowed that it did.

Peace out dude.
Heart

[betenoire]

Hmmm... I kinda feel now like you''re just baiting me. I guess if you don't see the diff between generic "hay man," or " hey dude," and the way that CN attempted to explain/define her masculine female partner to the world as a "man with boobs" -- well, there sure isn't anything I'm gonna say that will make you see the difference.

By-the-way, recently when a male id'ed butch who is organizing on behalf of other butches of various identities referred to "brotherhood," I asked him if his organizing included "sisterhood." He allowed that it did.

Peace out dude.
Heart

I am not trying to bait you. I am simply drawing a parallel between describing a masculine female as "man with boobs" and referring to masculine females (regardless of their ID, level of relationship, preferred pronoun, etc) as "he" (cuz, lemme tell you - some Butches hate that) "husband" "bro" etc. BOTH of those practices insinuate that the masculine female is less....female.

And don't you ever call me dude again, are we understood? I would accept being called bitch before I would accept being called dude - now who's baiting whom?

[Heart]

And don't you ever call me dude again, are we understood? I would accept being called bitch before I would accept being called dude - now who's baiting whom?

Huh? Attempt at levity - nothing more.

Soooooooooooooooooo.... this was fun.

[betenoire]

Huh? Attempt at levity - nothing more.

Soooooooooooooooooo.... this was fun.

Or you could apologise. Just a thought.

[AtLast]

We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh.


Personally, this is offensive to me. I am tired of having to defend the fact that I love my breasts! And they are an integral, important part of my butch body. As I have stated before, if faced with breast cancer and needing mastectomies, I would do everything to assure that I could have reconstruction afterwards. And it would be very sad for me to lose the erotic sensations my breasts give me sexually. They represent to me the essence of being a masculine woman with all of female and male combinations I possess along with my vagina. Both are essential erogenous zones for me. Both define a part of my whole. I will not hide either.

Butches differ concerning their breasts. I support all butches personal feelings about their breasts. However, I want the same respect for my feelings in return and am sick of this devaluation of female-masculinity as a butch. As sick of it as I was when as a heterosexual woman, my breasts were viewed as nothing more than play things for men that they fixated on.

LOL.... have to say that I love the very different manner in which a femme lover views my breasts. It is not even close to what I experienced as a heterosexual.

I am not a taller man with boobs! I am a woman that celebrates my meshing of male and female physical features and appreciates those that find me desirable just as I am. I do not fit into the traditional gender binary and refuse to default to male. Many do and that is their prerogative and I will always support their doing so. But, please, do not put me in the same category as it is disrespectful to me as well as to those that are trans and we all have struggles in this binary fixated world!

[Nat]

Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because

she's with a butch woman?
she's a star?
she was an actor in Sex in the City?
she's a woman?

I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive.

If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way?

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site? :)

[Medusa]

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site? :)


I actually LOVE the idea of writing letters! (and getting her to join the site would be great too!)

Here is her fansite: http://www.cynthianixon.net/


and Im looking for more.


Incidentally, Here is a link to an article where someone *PRAISES* Cynthia Nixon for the "man with boobs" quote.
http://www.metrowny.com/blogs/archives/629-Sex-and-the-City-star-Cynthia-Nixon-loves-her-partners-butchness-75b0xw00d.html
Perhaps she needs a letter too :|

[Nat]

:) I looked at the site and didn't see an email address. Did you?

she also has a facebook (http://www.facebook.com/CynthiaNixon?ref=ts)

Letter-writing it is then?

[Jack]

But I do have a question. If comparing a masculine female to a man is upsetting...is it also upsetting when someone refers to their (female identified) lover as "Daddy" "Sir" "My Husband" etc. I get that those words do not mean "man" to us in this community - but I also get that those are words that have been used to describe men in various positions...well, for as long as those words have existed. Should we as a community reject those words? Should we be making up new words?

I'm not trying to be a shit-disturber by asking that question. I genuinely can't wrap my head around how one thing is diminishing and the other is perfectly acceptable. We cannot have it both ways.

I am greatly apreciative of this post. Thank you .

[Toughy]

But I do have a question. If comparing a masculine female to a man is upsetting...is it also upsetting when someone refers to their (female identified) lover as "Daddy" "Sir" "My Husband" etc. I get that those words do not mean "man" to us in this community - but I also get that those are words that have been used to describe men in various positions...well, for as long as those words have existed. Should we as a community reject those words? Should we be making up new words?

I'm not trying to be a shit-disturber by asking that question. I genuinely can't wrap my head around how one thing is diminishing and the other is perfectly acceptable. We cannot have it both ways.

I'm not anyone's husband ever. I'm not even a huzbutch. When I was married (to a woman for 16 years) she was my wife and I was her wife if we used those kind of terms.

As to Daddy and Syr............well those are erotic and/or sexuality identities for Me. You had best be calling Me Syr when I am powered up in full Top/Dom mode and you are My bottom/sub. Daddy....not so much and usually only in jest. My kinky Top self is pretty male id'd.....not much in touch with the woman parts of me. It's male but it's a different kind of male.

However I would suggest that there are Femme Daddies and Femme Syrs. I know some.............<looking at Snow>. Certainly within the kink community any gender can claim Sir/Syr and Daddy or Mommy or Ma'am. And then we can be ponies or doggies or cats and trainers and handlers or we can be littles and those who take care of the littles.

Sexuality and kink identifications are not the same as gender ID. I am woman. I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

The general public who read 'short man with boobs' has no earthly idea about the nuances of gender/sexuality/kink. Hell half of this community doesn't get kink and it's relationship (or lack of) to sexuality and gender.

What the general public read was masculine woman=man.

edited to add:....darlin I can have it as many ways as I want it.......laughin....and I don't see me hating male pronouns for butch default and being called Syr when I get out my single-tail as having it both ways.......they are not the same thing at all..........

[Heart]

Are we holding Cynthia Nixon up to a certain standard because

she's with a butch woman?
she's a star?
she was an actor in Sex in the City?
she's a woman?

I think Heart has a point that describing a masculine woman as a "short man with boobs" is unfeminist and offensive.

If part of straight privilege is never being asked to speak for everyone who is heterosexual, is it fair for us to expect her to speak for every butch and every person who has ever loved a butch? Do you read her as defining every butch when she describes her own partner that way?

How can we encourage her to do better next time? Should we all write her letters? Books, perhaps? An invitation to join the site? :)

I'm going to say this one last time and then I'm out cause I'm finally pissed (not at you Nat).

I am NOT NOT NOT holding CN up to any standard for any reason. I used her comments (which I do obviously have an opinion about) to make a point about US, about OUR community, about the continual erasure of female/masculine/butch identities. This thread bears that out and I am holding THIS COMMUNITY up to a standard.

I'm pissed because so many responders here lectured me about accepting individual identities, or claimed that there's nothing to address unless we know all about the personal nature of CN and CM's relationship, or called me hysterical, or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

[Toughy]

by Heart
My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

...........word.............

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm not anyone's husband ever. I'm not even a huzbutch. When I was married (to a woman for 16 years) she was my wife and I was her wife if we used those kind of terms.

As to Daddy and Syr............well those are erotic and/or sexuality identities for Me. You had best be calling Me Syr when I am powered up in full Top/Dom mode and you are My bottom/sub. Daddy....not so much and usually only in jest. My kinky Top self is pretty male id'd.....not much in touch with the woman parts of me. It's male but it's a different kind of male.

However I would suggest that there are Femme Daddies and Femme Syrs. I know some.............<looking at Snow>. Certainly within the kink community any gender can claim Sir/Syr and Daddy or Mommy or Ma'am. And then we can be ponies or doggies or cats and trainers and handlers or we can be littles and those who take care of the littles.

Sexuality and kink identifications are not the same as gender ID. I am woman. I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

The general public who read 'short man with boobs' has no earthly idea about the nuances of gender/sexuality/kink. Hell half of this community doesn't get kink and it's relationship (or lack of) to sexuality and gender.

What the general public read was masculine woman=man.

edited to add:....darlin I can have it as many ways as I want it.......laughin....and I don't see me hating male pronouns for butch default and being called Syr when I get out my single-tail as having it both ways.......they are not the same thing at all..........

*waves*

Why yes.. I am Daddy

Sir

Master

All very masculine, I even have a boy...

No one calls me a man with boobs though:(

I feel cheated...

[PapaC]

... is how easily and once again, a description of a masculine woman or an 'explanation' of who she is, is reduced down to the lowest common denominator:

her boobs
her tits
her tatas
her melons
her mammories
her rack
her dairy queen
her knockers
her cans
her jiggily jugs (ok I added the jiggily for some fun)

... mention a women's boobs, and everyone's all "OH! ok, now I get it"

reduced.

I recently saw LA Story so this is fresh in my head:

"I could not handle being a woman, I would stay home all day and play with my breasts." - Steve Martin


I'm fucking tired of US being reduced down or reducing ourselves down to body parts.

<shaking head>

[Nat]

I'm going to say this one last time and then I'm out cause I'm finally pissed (not at you Nat).

I am NOT NOT NOT holding CN up to any standard for any reason. I used her comments (which I do obviously have an opinion about) to make a point about US, about OUR community, about the continual erasure of female/masculine/butch identities. This thread bears that out and I am holding THIS COMMUNITY up to a standard.

I'm pissed because so many responders here lectured me about accepting individual identities, or claimed that there's nothing to address unless we know all about the personal nature of CN and CM's relationship, or called me hysterical, or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

Heart - I understand and agree with the bolded part and I applaud your efforts in this thread.

I think what's going on in this thread is complex and interesting.

I think bringing CN into this has brought up a lot of other issues and values that many of us differ on. I don't even know where I would personally begin untangling it, and I think it's likely that you would find it frustrating if I tried.

I do think that you are thinking on sort of a double-meta level, and when you pulled a real world example, you got a lot of different reactions because we all value different things and we are all at different points in the conversation, in our identities, in our experiences, etc.

I'm sorry you're frustrated.

[Nat]

... is how easily and once again, a description of a masculine woman or an 'explanation' of who she is, is reduced down to the lowest common denominator:

her boobs
her tits
her tatas
her melons
her mammories
her rack
her dairy queen
her knockers
her cans
her jiggily jugs (ok I added the jiggily for some fun)

... mention a women's boobs, and everyone's all "OH! ok, now I get it"

reduced.

I recently saw LA Story so this is fresh in my head:

"I could not handle being a woman, I would stay home all day and play with my breasts." - Steve Martin


I'm fucking tired of US being reduced down or reducing ourselves down to body parts.

<shaking head>

This part got to me too - defining one's partner by their breasts just really bothers me. I would find it extremely odious if my partner's definition of me included "boobs." As a person who is not a butch, that part cut me deeper.

[Arwen]

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation. Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood. That's it. What is so freakin' hard to understand? What is the argument? Why is there such a knee-jerk reaction every damn time the words "woman" and "butch" are brought up in the same sentence? I don't even get where the combativeness comes from.

Contact Cynthia Nixon, but I have no idea what anyone's point to her will be. Certainly not the point I'm making, since that has been hopelessly obscured.

Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.

Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't.

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id.

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id.

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?

I just get so tired.

[Martina]

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he.


i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

[Arwen]

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

On which side? I mean...if you are going to tell me what I should see something as, maybe you could be a bit more forthcoming with the rules?

[BullDog]

We don't want anyone to fucking feel sorry for us or feel guilty. Can we get some fucking respect? Apparently not. I'm really, really, really pissed at all the disrespect, combativeness and dismissive way masculine women and butch women are being treated- not that it's anything new- and no I'm not talking about Cynthia Nixon.

Roger. Over and Out.

[Arwen]

We don't want anyone to fucking feel sorry for us or feel guilty. Can we get some fucking respect? Apparently not. I really, really, really pissed at all the disrespect, combativeness and dismissive way masculine women and butch women are being treated- not that it's anything new.

Roger. Over and Out.

See? Here's the deal. You can't tell me what or how to feel. You have no control over that. It's my reactions to what I read and how I perceive things.

If I choose to be sad that others feel disrespected, that's my hula hoop--not yours. Please do not tell me what to say or think or feel and I will do my best to return that favor.

You react how you want. I will react how I want. I am expressing my opinion. You are taking it personally.

Why?

[Jett]

See? Here's the deal. You can't tell me what or how to feel. You have no control over that. It's my reactions to what I read and how I perceive things.

If I choose to be sad that others feel disrespected, that's my hula hoop--not yours. Please do not tell me what to say or think or feel and I will do my best to return that favor.

You react how you want. I will react how I want. I am expressing my opinion. You are taking it personally.

Why?


Actually... not to be nick picky but you said (my highlights)

"...I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she."

Yeah, what-ever the ID, male-female I don't really think any butches are looking for anybody to feel guilty or sorry for them...

I know I sure as hell don't need it *lol*... really I don't have a damn thing to feel sorry about. I'm pretty damn happy to be me, probably to a fault. If I make a statement I don't like AB or C that ain't whinin' that's just me bitchin'...

Don't feel bad about that... I sure don't. ;)
Metro

[Arwen]

Actually... not to be nick picky but you said (my highlights)

"...I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she."

Yeah, what-ever the ID, male-female I don't really think any butches are looking for anybody to feel guilty or sorry for them...

I know I sure as hell don't need it *lol*... really I don't have a damn thing to feel sorry about. I'm pretty damn happy to be me, probably to a fault. If I make a statement I don't like AB or C that ain't whinin' that's just me bitchin'...

Don't feel bad about that... I sure don't. ;)
Metro

Not picky at all. However, that started with "I feel as if" so I did preface that with my own feelings of needing to feel. HA! Convoluted enough?

We can probably just chalk that up to my inherent feelings of guilt for being responsible for everything including WW's I and II. It's a joke in certain groups I hang out in.

[apretty]

1. with regards to pronouns: i ask, prior and i default 'she' for butches because i know more 'she' than 'he/hy' butches and while 'he' seems a the go-to pronoun 'online' --i like continuity (and newsflash: she does not equal less-than).

2. i think the importance in talking about how/why x-person says her partner is 'a man' with a one small detail like *boobs* comes down to the *qualifying* your female partner (as man-but-for) makes your relationship less-than authentic in the eyes of the average and straight reader.

also, it defeats the purpose of being an OUT "lesbian" --and this is what nixon talked about for a good part of the interview (that both partners desired to be *out* and prior, nixon's manager/publicist person had discouraged her from disclosing her relationship.).

3. so, whether or not she 'chose' to be the spokesperson for 'female and gay' --a big article in the ADVOCATE will spotlight what you're doing/what it's all about/what it looks like/sounds like/feels like to the person unfamiliar with female masculinity.


full quote:

"She's basically a short man with boobs. A lot of what I love about her is her butchness. I'm not saying I fell in love with her in a sexually neutral way. I love her sexuality - it's a big part of what I love about her - but I feel like it was her. It wasn't something in me that was waiting to come out. It was like, 'This person is undeniable. How can I let this person walk by?'

finally, i find it curious that nixon reduces her partner to male/female body parts while she resists fully owning her sexuality, instead places it square on the shoulders of her partner: "...i feel like it was her. it wasn't something in me..."

*and i'm not a big sex/the city fan, to be fair. (not sure if that matters)

[Jett]

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

Right, what she said... thanks Martina.

I'm not sure where things come off as looking for anything but recognition of the issues put forth. Truth, maybe if more peeps could get past trying to read in between the lines conversations like these would get so fucky nuts in the first place.

Sez me who's pretty damn tired of these convos as well, wish there wasn't a need for them, but there is.
Metro

[Cyclopea]

Me: in red.


Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Can you explain in what way you feel a sense of unfairness in the points Heart has articulated? Specifically unfair to whom and in what way. I'm confused by your charge and would like to understand your point of view...Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.Again, I'm confused by the discussion vs. conversion that you bring up. A clearly articulated point of view in a discussion could "convert" or change a point of view I suppose but it seems like in your context you mean something coercive? And I would like to understand what you mean.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.My perspective is different on this and I hope your sense of hatred in our community is not true. As a butch woman I feel respected and supported by many men and males in this community, and I certainly hope others feel the same.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.You say you default to he because you are lazy, but why choose he over she? Why not default to she out of laziness? Or was it a coin flip situation? Maybe you could default to he half of the time, and she the other, or at least randomize the laziness? Why privilege he?

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.
If I decide to call everyone on this site including yourself "he" because it is easier for me and you correct me, should I feel guilty? Should I pity you? What if I just call everyone "it"?
Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't. As a woman my femaleness is not "contrived". I don't understand why you think being a woman is contrived. Are you saying there is no such thing as a woman?

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id. To be clear- that works both ways, right? You don't give a rat's patootie how anyone refers to you either right?

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id. Except that it's a contrived id that you don't give a rat's ass about?

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?I don't know- I don't see this happening but I respect that you do and maybe I am missing it.

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.
You say that you can see where the particular example cited by the Op could be offensive. As a woman who is non-traditionally feminine I can tell you that for me personally I have received a lifetime of commentary and intrusion based on my non-conformity to socio/political ideals of what females should look like and how they should behave. Much of this commentary centers on the idea that I am less than a "real" woman, ergo male. Yet I am not male. I am but one variation of all the things that are female. I am damn tired of being told I am less of a woman. Damn tired. And I come to this community for support and sisterhood from other butch women and our allies. Not to be told I am a male. Not deliberately out of hatred as happens in my everyday lesbophobic mysogynist culture, and not because someone is too "lazy" to remember that women exist.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?I'm not sure what you mean by female-id vs. butch id. I think all the butch women responding here are both female and butch. Can you please explain what you mean by female vs. butch? I would like to understand.

I just get so tired.
I don't get tired of respecting other community members be they femme, butch, androgynist, bisexual, lesbian, male, woman, female, no gender, men, intersexed, or whatever. I feel energized by the diversity of this community, not taxed and exhausted. Is there anything we can do to help you feel better? What would make the diversity feel better for you?

[betenoire]

As to Daddy and Syr............well those are erotic and/or sexuality identities for Me.

Well, Daddy I -do- get and I'll give you that (and I never give anybody anything). But know that the "Sir" I was referring to was really a lowercase "sir". I was talking about if Nick says "on your way back from the kitchen grab me a drink" or "hold this" and I say "yes sir!" and click my heels sarcastically. (That's just an example, I would never be sarcastic with the spouse. Please!) Why is that just shrugged off? Nick is not a man. But, for some reason, most of this online community would be squicked out if I were to "yes, ma'am!" and click my heels at Nick.

However I would suggest that there are Femme Daddies and Femme Syrs. I know some.............<looking at Snow>.

Snow is hot. If I wasn't married I would totally try to do it with her. I have no idea what "it" is, and I would like to apologise now for this temporary derail.

or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

Well, when you and me have been dating for years and are raising a child together maybe then you can call me pretty much whatever you please without pissing me off, okay? We simply do not have the kind of relationship where it's okay to for you to call me anything other than my name. Which is Brandy.

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation.

It seems to me that the only conversation that you are interested in having is the one where everybody stays completely within the rules of topic that you defined in your initial post without the topic ever expanding or evolving in any way shape or form. Oh, and that it's also very important that everybody agree with you - which doesn't make for very interesting conversation as far as I'm concerned.

Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood.

Nobody is disagreeing with you on that. At all. So what is the problem, here?

In fact, I tried to have a conversation with you on that -exact- topic (see my post about it not being okay to call every Butch on the planet "he" just because it's convenient) but instead of engaging in conversation you accused me of "baiting" you.

I think what you actually wanted was a thread where you made your initial post, and a bunch of people posted 2-3 word sentences along the lines of "you're so right!" "it's awful!" "grody bad behaviour!" and that was it.


p/s - I get that this thread isn't about Femmes, but i do want to put out there that this across-the-board referring to all Butches as "he" really lends to the invisibility of Femmes. If I am on the bus, at work, at the mall, on the phone with my parents and referring to my spouse as "he"...then nobody is ever going to know who Nick is, and by extension of that who I am.

[PapaC]

grabbing's heart's post:

"We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh."

This thread is almost having me convinced to fuck the binary completely and keep my man boobs intact. (almost, I said)..

but how valid is a discussion of ID in this thread when really what I see from Heart's initial post, it's more about a MACRO not MICRO perspective. In other words, it has nothing to do with Cynthia or Christine or you or me or anyone on a personal level, but a constant persistent objectification and reduction of the human female form, perpetuated ad infinitum.

I'm not saying personal reactions are not valid, though.

Take Cynthia out of the equation and look solely at the statement, the sound bite. It speaks volumes and that's what people (mainstream) see. They don't see the woman behind the boobs.

[Jett]

Heart, I am going to tell you that I think you are being unfair and single-minded in your quest to make others agree with you rather than actually discuss this. Do you honestly want discussion or do you want conversion on this topic? Because I'm not sure. My gut reaction is that you want discussion but it feels like conversion to me. I own that reaction might simply be my own baggage.

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.

Sometimes I don't think I can win at this contrived freaking id game. I really don't.

And I am not sure I want to.

Now before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain why.

I'm freaking tired of the id game. I battle my own id war all the time (except when I am in a specifically BF group) so sometimes, you will have to forgive me for not giving a rat's patootie about anyone else's id.

I do stand for someone's right to be called what they want. I do honor a person's choice in their id.

I do not honor the notion that because X, Y and X butches are female-id, it means A, B, and C's masculinity is feminized. How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

I guess I'm truly tired right now and this discussion is working my last queer nerve.

Bottom line. I can see where calling a butch woman a "man with boobs" is offensive. I believe I even said that here. I will remove the personalization inherently added by the fact that it was said by someone in the news. I will remove the personalization of wondering whether or not her partner gives a flying rat's patoot about it.

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

That's what I get so damned tired of. Linus' id doesn't affect Jackhammer's. Jackhammer's doesn't affect Met's. Met's doesn't affect Boots13. ad nauseum

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?

I just get so tired.

I said this essentially to you privately, but I'm going to state it here because it's important to me (with addition).

As far as ID goes... I'm butch... not a game it's just life, and my sex and gender are not my ID... they are what they are, neither a game nor a choice to be played out for anyone else to win or lose at.

I take it seriously, yep... and I expect respect around them... and I won't accept any less. I don't expect any less from myself in interaction with others either... golden rule thing, do unto others and all, it works for me.

That's why I'm in this conversation when I'd rather be well, doing just about anything else.

More importantly, I also stated I don't think or see a "hatred between" ID's... sure there's some peeps with insecurities and some peeps are maybe just cranky but I personally have friends of all ID's here... because they are good peeps male and female alike. I think that's pretty important to make clear.

I have issues with other things you said, but quite honestly, it's late, it's not worth it to me and life's too damn short as it is.

Metropolis

[BullDog]

No Jack, I am not talking about you, Medusa, the Moderators, Techno Geeks, or anyone else helping to make this website what it is.

I have privately and publicly thanked all of you several times. I just did so earlier today:

Chris, my fellow geek, you know I will always back you up! Yes, I compared the meta keywords for BFP and another butch femme site. Butch woman and femme woman are listed for BFP, not the other site. The other site does list masculine identified butches as one of their keywords, no other qualifiers for butch.

Keywords are how people find things on the internet, so yes it makes a big difference. It also makes a big difference to me to see the effort of inclusiveness being put forth by the owners, Admins and moderators of this website.

I don't need any special privileges, parking passes, etc etc. I have friends and allies across the gender spectrum. Certainly some of my best allies and friends in the world are trans men. I don't play the male vs. female game.

[Cyclopea]

I feel VERY disrespected if someone else has a different view about HOW I should be, WHAT I should be.
And I don't need special privileges or parking passes to speak up about it.
And I don't need to play my "female oppression card" (that's like a "race card", right?).

[BullDog]

I don't have an oppression card.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Toughy;104615]

Sexuality and kink identifications are not the same as gender ID. I am woman. I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

The general public who read 'short man with boobs' has no earthly idea about the nuances of gender/sexuality/kink. Hell half of this community doesn't get kink and it's relationship (or lack of) to sexuality and gender.

What the general public read was masculine woman=man.

[QUOTE]

Yup! Sexuality & kink identifications are not the same! At all!!! Also, the statement in included with boobs... Just doesn't equate to me. the reference places butch in a male default. Which is something that does bug many of us.

I am wondering too if some male-identified butches might take offense as well.. and then there is the short thing. This could set off some butches or short people in general. I can see transmen being offended too due to sensitivity to the narrow definitions of women in general. After all, there are many feminist transmen here that are partnered with women and they have experienced past sexism (along with transphobia) themselves. Many femmes find this offensive- the OP for one.

I have no idea if she was just making a statement in jest, could be. Maybe it is a term of endearment, dunno. I don't hold her to any higher standard. I am offended as a butch, a feminist and as a woman, however. Crazy, ultra offended- no. Just think its important for people to say what they feel about this because we all do have some deep feelings about gender and sexism, no matter how we identify.

I do not feel this so called hatred between male and female identified butches or transmen. I have at times in the past, but honestly see movement in our working through anger and differences. Sure, there has been heated discussions and oh, so, many gender threads about butches. This tells me that we are a complex group with individual characteristics representing a multitude of what a butch is. I have learned alot by reading differing posts about other's butch identity.

[Bad_boi]

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

[AtLast]

ARGH!!!

Who said it and why she did IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT!

I had high hopes for this discussion and feel frustrated as hell that we can't have a conversation about the underlying meaning of the statement in terms of what it says about women and especially butch women. And i believe we can do this without any negative assumptions about male identified butches or transmen. In fact, they just might have some good things to say as well in looking at narrow definitions of women in general as well as butch identity. Not all of us buy into butch-wars and hate each other.

You know, this isn't about taking sides.... honoring differences can make a powerfully strong bridge to understanding.

[Lynn]

Who says something, and why it's said does matter because it speaks to context. Seeing what CN said, in print, raised some bile for me. I didn't think that she meant anything negative. In fact, what I thought she was doing, by saying, "basically," was explaining. Who knows? Maybe she struggles with accepting herself and trying to figure out where she fits in, like me. Like a lot of us. Maybe it was an awkward, "Oh shit. Did I just say that?" moment. I have them fucking all the time. Good thing I obsessively edit what I write on line, or you would see my foot in my mouth pretty often. What she said is relevant to me. Not because I give a crap about her, especially. It's just that her comments (obviously) hit a nerve because they reflect the underbelly of emotion that is more difficult to deal with. That SHE said something like "men with boobs" doesn't really bother me. That it was said at all does cause me some discomfort. If it's a springboard for self-examination and discussion, why is it so upsetting when some of us find it relevant to reference? Why does a discussion have to go in a particular way in order for it to be legitimate?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.


See I have to disagree with you here Bad Boi... Butches ARE NOT just like men, now mind you there are some ass munchers who will play out the guy role, be jerky, an ass clown, have a touch of misogyny but they are NOT men.. Now, I am not a butch so perhaps I speak out of line, I do however have friends from both ends of the spectrum and in between, who would take offense at the fact that they are looked upon as the *men* of our community. They aren't and they should not have that expectation put on them by their allies or their own brethren.


It's clear and simple, for some unknown fucked up reason *men* even in our own fold is used first, as if woman was a lower than descriptor, heaven forbid a butch be in touch with their cunt or breasts because not only is it going to *squick* their future dating scene it's going to get alot of jabs from their own (other butches)

Female Identified butches have been screaming this out over and over since hell I can remember on any of these sites..


I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

Ms Potty gave a good example, if she had said this to her partner

Nick is not a man. But, for some reason, most of this online community would be squicked out if I were to "yes, ma'am!" and click my heels at Nick.

There would of been some kind of rant because Nick was feminized. THAT makes me crazy!!!

I can't stand and I get how frustrating it is to have being *woman* turned into something less than or icky.

It's not... I don't experience this kind of gender wars as much on the outside as I do on here, I meet someone and I get to know them and if they say hey I prefer *hy, he, she, shym zi" then I will use it, other than that they are *Al* I don't assume that their gender id is male regardless of what they wear or what scent they have on. *I* don't want anyone to slap a label on me without asking so therefore I try not to do it to anyone else.

Anyways, my point is Bad Boi, NO I will not face it, butches are not like men.

End of my rant.

[Toughy]

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

First I did not mean to thank you............I clicked the wrong button.

Let me be perfectly clear..............

I am NOT like a man in any way period. full stop. I am a masculine woman. Not a man.

It's stuff like this that really chaps my ass..............makes me wonder if you actually read the thread............

[JustJo]

I promised myself I was gonna stay out of this thread *sigh*

I have read every single post here, and given this a great deal of thought and, as usual, am not entirely sure what I think about all of this. It's not just about this thread...that's my normal state of being.

Truly, I do get that the conversation isn't about what CN said or the context or whatever. I think we can all agree that partners say things about each other in affection or jest that could be taken as disrespectful or even misogynistic by those outside of the relationship. Scoote calls me a hot little bitch...among other things...and while I would not tolerate that from anyone else on earth, from her it I like it...and it makes me giggle and get that warm, fuzzy thing going.

I'm rather new to this whole BF dynamic...hence the "newly hatched" in my profile...so I will apologize in advance if I unintentionally step on anyone's toes. My point of view comes from a whole adult lifetime spent in relationships with bio-men (I'm slow...took me for-freakin-ever to figure myself out), my relationship with a female-id'ed butch, and friendships both online and in real time with both male-id'ed and female-id'ed butches. So....perhaps like Cynthia Nixon, I'm a bit new to this community and these ideas....

I get hung up on the pronouns alot. I always try to remember who ID's in what way and use the appropriate she/he/hy....but admit that in my own head I default to she. I think the reason for that is that "masculine" and "butch" energy feel very, very different to me. I haven't yet met or spoken to a male-ID'ed butch that felt like a man to me. I'm willing to be wrong on this...it just hasn't happened yet. I don't look at the pic in this thread and say "man"....I look and say "butch" (and also "cute couple").

One of the (several) things that bothered me on the dash site was the automatic default to the male pronoun. My partner is not "he." She does not want to be a man, or any approximation of a man. She is, in my view, magnificent, gorgeous, female, and butch. She doesn't have "masculine" energy....she has butch energy. It feels different to me...and better.

I've got nothing at all against men, masculine energy, or anyone who chooses to identify male. That's their right and bravo for them. Just as it's my right to be femme in my own way....intelligent, headstrong, stubborn, silly and girly.

Long way around...sorry....I think we get hung up, as a community and as a larger society, because none of the words we have quite fit. If I am trying to describe "butch" to my mother or her friends or my straight co-workers who have never had any exposure to this community....I have a problem. If I say masculine, then they think male. Those two words are tied together in their brains...and in mine. If people don't understand "butch" then I run out of words to describe it to them. I've spent alot of time fumbling for the right words with friends...and many of them are probably still left with the idea that Scoote is some approximation of a man. It's not because they value maleness more highly (I guarantee they don't)...it's a lack of personal exposure on their part, and the words to describe it well on mine.

[Linus]

Warning: this post is being done without the influence of caffeine. If things seemed jumbled or rambled, I blame that.



I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

I'm a man with boobs.

Now, you may be male-ID'd but I'd bet many female-ID'd butches would disagree with you. They are all woman and proud of it (rightful so). Sometimes there is too much emphasis in society on the masculine, particularly with placing it on the top of the societal food chain. If I think of a mainstream butch (for some reason, k.d. lang comes to mind), I can bet she's rather proud of the woman she is and all her parts. So why shouldn't a non-mainstream woman be proud of that?

Society will continue to place a hierarchical order to gender (e.g., male == strong; female == weak) because changes to that come gradually and only when the call out of behaviour is done to ALL of society. We can call it out here, debate it here but if it's only done here, then a large part of society misses it. And it gets lost.

Is it (the phrase in question) misogyny? Yes. Our language (english) is rather misogynistic in nature, even if one attempts to change it. The comments left in regards to the original news/blog piece need to be educated. Not by mashing them over the head but with a gentle nudge.



(Note: this isn't to diminish the "silencing" of the femaleness of a butch woman but a commentary on how society seems to be about, well.. everything): It is interesting how in society (both mainstream and here) we tell people to be their own individual self and yet, when enforce a specific singular label on them as the defining characteristic. And if my defining characteristic is slightly different than yours... well... :overreaction: seems to be the response (whether here or in mainstream society).

[Martina]

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.



How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

. . .

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).


The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.


Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?


When the problem is solved, yes, it will go away. Not until then. i don't think women-identified butches are going to volunteer for erasure just so some people will feel better. (i note your Freudian slip -- female-id vs. butch-id).

[Gemme]

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

This feels like the chicken and the egg with me...was there was no discord before the male-identified butches took it upon themselves to devalue the female-identified butches? Or are you saying society in general devalued female-identified butches and then it was basically 'on'. I wasn't around then and, though I know some of my community's history, I could definitely learn more.

I understand what Arwen was saying, I think, and I also feel as if there's a line drawn in the sand. No, we don't want anyone to address 'us' as 'them'. It's one thing to want to be called what I id as (and I think that most of us do try to do our best to respect our peers and address them as they'd like to be seen) and another to automatically look to the other party in a less than respectful way because someone slipped up and called us the wrong pronoun or label or whatever it was in that moment.

There seems, to me, to be less of "Hey, that's not how I id. Please call me this next time, okay?" and more of "Ewwww! That's not how I id! Don't call me THAT!" Whether it comes from male-identified butches or female-identified butches, it's not a nice thing. There's more tolerance for straight people looking in than those within our own circle. That feels like we're tearing our own community apart and for what? To say "I'm right!" basically. Why can't we all be right (for ourselves) and let everyone else, be it female-identified or male-identified or kiwi-identified or any other number of identities...why can't we just accept one another? It's like we're eroded our community from the inside out....like a virus.

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.


I read the last couple of paragraphs and I'm sure that my first response is what may seem like a perfect example of what you speak of. Except it's not.

Arwen spoke of not letting how one person identifies affecting her identity and that is true for all of us. Your identity shouldn't affect mine and vise versa, but somehow....especially with female and male-identified butches, this seems to me to play out differently. Almost as if one can't exist without the other but there's still that immediate rejection of the other. I'm not finding the right words I fear to express my thoughts as well as they could (like Arwen was, I'm a bit tired).

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

Someone...bete?...said that calling her partner he creates invisibility for her and I see that. I've fought against it and, at other times, have hidden behind it when it felt safer to do so. That's a privilege that many don't have and I am aware of it and have been grateful and hateful of it too.

I tend to default to male pronouns as well. I know more male-identified or masculine preferring butches than female-identified butches in my own bubble. However, I respect that butch does not equal he and adjust the way I address someone if I know their identity and preference BUT in the case where I'm speaking of someone and they are not there to ask and no one else knows their preference I'll either say he (that's my default showing) or their screen name. When I get the chance to ask them personally, I will.

I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?

I'm asking this of you, Martina, not only because some of your post sparked something in me but because I feel that you may have an answer that would help me to understand better. I'm not coming from an argumentative place and I hope that that is not how I read. I'm genuinely curious.

[BullDog]

Personally all the female-identified, woman-identified, etc jargon does not at all reflect ME. No offense intended to those who find personal meaning in those terms.

I have yet to hear one single butch ever say they are engaged in some sort of war.

I don't identify as a woman- I AM a woman. I live my life as a woman, as a masculine woman, as a Butch. It's not something I "identify with." I live it.

[AtLast]

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

Most certainly is. And one excusing their laziness about using female pronouns takes the cake with exercising privilege. Arwen, I have always thought very highly of you and actually understand part of your response. But, This statement was so dismissive, I could not believe it came from you at all.

What would a male-identified or TG butch think and feel if i just said, Oh, sorry, its just too damn difficult to respect part of who you are... don't take it personally.

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

No, our speaking up has not one damn thing to do with objecting to how other's ID. I get really tired of this assumption and I don't believe that male-IDed/transmen are taking pot shots at my identity when they speak their personal truth. Again, this attitude is from a place of privilege.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

You got it!



When the problem is solved, yes, it will go away. Not until then. i don't think women-identified butches are going to volunteer for erasure just so some people will feel better. (i note your Freudian slip -- female-id vs. butch-id).

True... on both counts. And we are not.

Something that comes up for me time and again is that I can have this conversation with male-identified butches and transmen outside of a B-F website without these kinds of statements and assumptions. In fact, I find alot of sincere understanding between us all more often than not. I get pissed when I hear blanket statements about hatred among us. There has been a lot of work done among us. And I won't stand for that to be erased either.

[Nat]

This community is really interesting because it bridges some real gaps in society. Each of us has had real-world lived experiences that vary greatly from the cisgender hetero "norm." *In some cases, those experiences vary even more greatly from those of others' in our community. *

On each of our individual paths, we have learned things of value at least to ourselves and hopefully, if shared, to others as well. *I think there are issues with "hearing" each other over the noise, walls and distances created by our own experiences, knowledge, education, age/generation, affinities, alliances, communities, values, etc. *

Complicating these divisions is the fact that many people when defining their own identity have incorporated into that identity a devaluation of the things they are not. *I think this is part of the trap of living as an "other" - not only is there a tendency to self-oppress, but there is a tendency to oppress other "others" in an attempt to feel validated.

I think exposure to this community does a great job of helping people reconstruct/clarify their identities in ways that do not subconsciously negate the identities of others. *When I run into people in the real world who do not participate in this sort of online interaction or have significant community exposure, there is a big difference in the level of critical thinking that goes on regarding gender, identity, sexuality and community. *Even when it's frustrating, the conversations here and in communities like this are ultimately productive and meaningful.

I have seen over time people of many different orientations and gender identities feel negated, invisibilized, put down, disrespected, unaccepted and unheard. I have felt all of those things myself as I have struggled with my own gender identity and really questioned whether I have a place here at all. *("here" = not "here" at this site, but within the online community which comprised many of the same people as this site currently comprises). *When I came out of the closet, I thought that was going to be my biggest, most freeing moment. *I came running into the arms of a community that I somehow imagined was a sort of wonderland of acceptance. *It's not. *

When I "came out" about feeling like a guy on the inside, well. *It was messy. *I was in a bad place. *I was in a sort of crisis with my gender. *Where I felt like coming out would mean finally being accepted and possibly loved for who I was, I realized at that point - the only person likely to accept me entirely for who I am - is gonna be me. *The only person capable of respecting where I'm coming from without trying to negate it - is gonna be me. *What made that more true was the fact that in an attempt to express what was going on with me, I assumed that other people's reactions, interpretations, world views, opinions, levels of discomfort were intentionally negating, invisiblizing, cruel and "wrong." I didn't feel accepted or respected, and I was neither accepting nor respectful of those who didn't "hear" me. *I felt judged - I judged. *As they say, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Then there have been other times - many many other times, when the shoe has been on the other foot. *I have been the one unable to hear, understand others within this community. *Sometimes it's because I personally feel discounted, but often it's just that there are so many gaps we are trying to cross at once - just in order to communicate about some of these issues. *I have learned over time that when I can't hear clearly and if the person or people I'm trying to "hear" are obviously not intending to be malicious, that it's worth keeping my ears open and gleaning what I can. *There are so many reasons we have gaps/noise/walls that keep us from hearing each other clearly - it may take many years to hear each other better.

I think goodwill and a willingness to listen and accept where people are coming from are really essential to the vitality of a community like ours. We are not always going to *get* each other, and I think that's a truth which doesn't necessarily have to tear us apart or lead to deep wounds or feelings of exclusion.

All this to say, my own limitations with this topic are most likely multiple. *I am a feminist who has often felt bullied by feminism. *I see Cynthia Nixon being held up as an example of something atrociously unfeminist and my first reaction is to defend her. *Feminism is great, but to me it feels like this steamroller at times and I personally just really struggle with the way in which it seems to negate the individual lived experience. *So I get stuck right there. *And I can't hear Heart. *I can't hear exactly what she's saying though I know what's sticking in my craw is not even what she's trying to say.

I know from experience that it's worth continuing to listen as long as she's willing to persist, because Heart will at times say things that are revelatory (to me) and worth the struggle it takes to bridge the gaps. *But there's a lot of personal noise for me on this topic and I know it's affecting my ability to "hear" clearly.

[AtLast]

This community is really interesting because it bridges some real gaps in society. Each of us has had real-world lived experiences that vary greatly from the cisgender hetero "norm." *In some cases, those experiences vary even more greatly from those of others' in our community. *

On each of our individual paths, we have learned things of value at least to ourselves and hopefully, if shared, to others as well. *I think there are issues with "hearing" each other over the noise, walls and distances created by our own experiences, knowledge, education, age/generation, affinities, alliances, communities, values, etc. *

Complicating these divisions is the fact that many people when defining their own identity have incorporated into that identity a devaluation of the things they are not. *I think this is part of the trap of living as an "other" - not only is there a tendency to self-oppress, but there is a tendency to oppress other "others" in an attempt to feel validated.

I think exposure to this community does a great job of helping people reconstruct/clarify their identities in ways that do not subconsciously negate the identities of others. *When I run into people in the real world who do not participate in this sort of online interaction or have significant community exposure, there is a big difference in the level of critical thinking that goes on regarding gender, identity, sexuality and community. *Even when it's frustrating, the conversations here and in communities like this are ultimately productive and meaningful.

I have seen over time people of many different orientations and gender identities feel negated, invisibilized, put down, disrespected, unaccepted and unheard. I have felt all of those things myself as I have struggled with my own gender identity and really questioned whether I have a place here at all. *("here" = not "here" at this site, but within the online community which comprised many of the same people as this site currently comprises). *When I came out of the closet, I thought that was going to be my biggest, most freeing moment. *I came running into the arms of a community that I somehow imagined was a sort of wonderland of acceptance. *It's not. *

When I "came out" about feeling like a guy on the inside, well. *It was messy. *I was in a bad place. *I was in a sort of crisis with my gender. *Where I felt like coming out would mean finally being accepted and possibly loved for who I was, I realized at that point - the only person likely to accept me entirely for who I am - is gonna be me. *The only person capable of respecting where I'm coming from without trying to negate it - is gonna be me. *What made that more true was the fact that in an attempt to express what was going on with me, I assumed that other people's reactions, interpretations, world views, opinions, levels of discomfort were intentionally negating, invisiblizing, cruel and "wrong." I didn't feel accepted or respected, and I was neither accepting nor respectful of those who didn't "hear" me. *I felt judged - I judged. *As they say, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Then there have been other times - many many other times, when the shoe has been on the other foot. *I have been the one unable to hear, understand others within this community. *Sometimes it's because I personally feel discounted, but often it's just that there are so many gaps we are trying to cross at once - just in order to communicate about some of these issues. *I have learned over time that when I can't hear clearly and if the person or people I'm trying to "hear" are obviously not intending to be malicious, that it's worth keeping my ears open and gleaning what I can. *There are so many reasons we have gaps/noise/walls that keep us from hearing each other clearly - it may take many years to hear each other better.

I think goodwill and a willingness to listen and accept where people are coming from are really essential to the vitality of a community like ours. We are not always going to *get* each other, and I think that's a truth which doesn't necessarily have to tear us apart or lead to deep wounds or feelings of exclusion.

All this to say, my own limitations with this topic are most likely multiple. *I am a feminist who has often felt bullied by feminism. *I see Cynthia Nixon being held up as an example of something atrociously unfeminist and my first reaction is to defend her. *Feminism is great, but to me it feels like this steamroller at times and I personally just really struggle with the way in which it seems to negate the individual lived experience. *So I get stuck right there. *And I can't hear Heart. *I can't hear exactly what she's saying though I know what's sticking in my craw is not even what she's trying to say.

I know from experience that it's worth continuing to listen as long as she's willing to persist, because Heart will at times say things that are revelatory (to me) and worth the struggle it takes to bridge the gaps. *But there's a lot of personal noise for me on this topic and I know it's affecting my ability to "hear" clearly.

I so appreciate this post! So honest and real. Touches so many things I have felt within the context of this community. Just isn't easy stuff goin' on! Thank you. I am doing a personal inventory after reading this, I sometimes need a tune-up when a thread becomes upsetting to me or I just feel alienated among my people. Yup, bridging those gaps is important!

[apretty]

there was a time that, though i still asked prior, i defaulted to 'he' and it was during this time (about 6 years ago) that female butches were becoming increasingly marginalized... (and this doesn't mean that i am apologizing in any way in my 'role' in 'marginalizing' because that's not where i'm going with this. --whole different thread.)

does anyone besides me sense the subversiveness (which i love, truth be told) in claiming/re-claiming the butch in female whether it be in identity and/or presentation?


just throwing this question out there, it's something that wanders around in my thoughts whenever space and pronouns and space and gender are thrown in the mix.

[Jett]

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

This is why this conversation deserves attention, why it's about concepts beyond what a celeb spews out a 1000 miles away from us. Why it was brought up and matters here.

It's not just a prob of some un-PC celeb, because I come to my community and hear it too, regularly. (don't mean to single you out Bad-boi it's just a good example in the moment)

Why it's all such a big deal? Well it's not because I think men are gross or hate them. It's because it's part of a vicious cycle that keeps the ball of sexism and misogyny rolling. NOT that every person who does it's motive is to implement those things. But it creates a system that says the masculinity, butch-ness that we value is not the product of female beings, and the credit literally in written record goes to man. "She" by default has thus become devalued... and set to a lower rung in that arena.

Female is not a "part" of me, I'm not a "guy and girl rolled into one", I'm not a freakin' candy bar. Female is not just my body, it's my mind and with that my butch-ness/masculinity as well. I don't "aspire" to be seen as a man. I wear all "male" clothing, etc but that's about who I am as a butch, my likes... my dislikes... it's one small piece of me.

These days, in MY life... I don't have time nor desire to spend my days worrying how anybody measures me as a butch, the true measure of me is my strengths, integrity, honesty, capacity for kindness and compassion. I don't worry about passing... I used to, but to me the more "male" you look has no bearing on anything. Truth, as of late I try not to pass, purposely, the core of butch-ness resides inside. Whether I'm wearing my tux, wrenching on my bikes engine or exercising the carpentry skills my Dad handed down to me that's all female 24/7... and if I decide to watch the Golden Girls while wearing eyeliner and drinking Mimosas... I'm still all butch 24/7.

If somebody wants to devalue my butch-ness because I look less like a man than Joe Blow Hard, they can eat me, and yes I said that.

And it's even more personal to me. This butch femme community is very very near and dear to my heart, I have beautiful friends here, and it really is a home away from home and always a port in the storm... something I truly cherish. If I didn't feel this way there'd be plenty of days I'd just walk away from the bullshit. But I believe we have the capacity to, and for the most part do pull together when it counts and lift each other and brush each other off.

And I don't just blow off the here and there bullshit because if we don't care enough to respect the validity and value of all our identities, who the hell will?

And actually... and lastly... about this female ID v.s. male ID butch war that's supposedly happening. I'll be perfectly frank, I've experienced more indifference, heard more side-swipes as to identity... more direct swipes, saw more "who the hell cares" attitudes and more pronoun defaulting from femmes... by far, then I've ever heard from other butches. I suspect this is because butches know well the sting of being on the other side of that stick. And my apologies to the vast majority of femmes, whom I've found very supportive and very respectful... you have my greatest respect in return as well. I truly treasure you.

Ok apparently I had some things to get off my chest... but still the gist to me is that sometimes it's bigger than just a celeb spewing shit and our own opinions of one poster or laziness on pronouns, and we look beyond our own noses and defer to our ears when many community members says, here's a prob, can we discuss it.

Whew, I may not speak again for a week.

Peace,
Metropolis

ETA: Truth if I ever thought this community, even a majority... didn't value and respect female and woman as a strong identity and presence, again I wouldn't be here... my bitch is about lets work on some of the stuff that slides and I think that goes for all identities, not just my own.

[SuperFemme]

there was a time that, though i still asked prior, i defaulted to 'he' and it was during this time (about 6 years ago) that female butches were becoming increasingly marginalized... (and this doesn't mean that i am apologizing in any way in my 'role' in 'marginalizing' because that's not where i'm going with this. --whole different thread.)
does anyone besides me sense the subversiveness (which i love, truth be told) in claiming/re-claiming the butch in female whether it be in identity and/or presentation?
just throwing this question out there, it's something that wanders around in my thoughts whenever space and pronouns and space and gender are thrown in the mix.

I love the subversiveness too. For more reasons that I can count. :seeingstars:

[betenoire]

I have a question. Do we really think that men and women are that different from one another? Cuz I don't. (and yes, this is relevant)

I dare you all to name me ONE quality/trait that "belongs" to either males or to females (but never to both). And I ain't talking about manufacturing sperm or eggs, here.

p/s - did I ever tell you all about the time I had to check the oil in my car on the side of the road and I wiped the dipstick on the bandana that was holding back my hair? the (trans)guy who was with me on that road trip said that I was soooooo Butch. I said that he was sooooo walking back to Vancouver if he didn't take it back.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as Butch or Femme traits. This week I feel like there isn't.

[Medusa]

Met,

You bring up a PERFECT point that I was thinking about earlier.

Jack and I were having our own version of a "heated discussion" the other night in our home when this thread first started to take off. :P
Now, before anyone says "Oh God! The webmasters are fighting - RUN FOR THE HILLS BEFORE THEY SHUT THE WEBSITE DOWN OR SUE EACH OTHER!!!"
It wasnt like that - We tend to get passionate and loud but it's always because we desperately want to understand each other (and in turn, our community at large)

I had a lightbulb moment the other night. It isnt about who did what or said what, it's that the WORLD constructs this thing where there can be no "Female" without "Male". No (supposed) way to define "woman" without defining "man" first and always first. The causation of "Male can exist without Female but not the other way around."
I GET that!

Now, here is the other thought that Met just made me think of (forgive me for bouncing off of your points here, Met), but I do think that there is a very real congruency with how Butches and Femmes process their experiences in the world.

The congruency can be found in the invisibility that Femmes experience, "Oh, you are a straight woman because feminine women aren't lesbians and certainly wouldn't partner with a Butch or Transperson!!" and the forced invisibility of Butches, "Man with boobs" or "Wanna be a man" or "Chick with glued-on dick".

There is a dichotomy there too. I think my experience as a Femme in this world is layered with my experience as an "acceptable form of woman". I still receive sexism and misogyny from the world at large but I do wonder how the layer looks to a Butch.
Jack said that since she is not an "acceptable form of woman" to most of the world that she might receive more hostile forms of sexism.
That makes sense to me.

[Random]

there was a time that, though i still asked prior, i defaulted to 'he' and it was during this time (about 6 years ago) that female butches were becoming increasingly marginalized... (and this doesn't mean that i am apologizing in any way in my 'role' in 'marginalizing' because that's not where i'm going with this. --whole different thread.)

does anyone besides me sense the subversiveness (which i love, truth be told) in claiming/re-claiming the butch in female whether it be in identity and/or presentation?


just throwing this question out there, it's something that wanders around in my thoughts whenever space and pronouns and space and gender are thrown in the mix.

Sometimes I think it's what every the butches you hold close in your heart ID as that becomes an *auto ID* in your head...

I noticed that about myself over the years... If the majority of butches/masculine women are some where on the path in transition then my inside default for the unknown is *He* If the majority of butches/masculine women in my life are female id'd then my inside default for the unknown is *She*

[SuperFemme]

I have a question. Do we really think that men and women are that different from one another? Cuz I don't. (and yes, this is relevant)

I dare you all to name me ONE quality/trait that "belongs" to either males or to females (but never to both). And I ain't talking about manufacturing sperm or eggs, here.

p/s - did I ever tell you all about the time I had to check the oil in my car on the side of the road and I wiped the dipstick on the bandana that was holding back my hair? the (trans)guy who was with me on that road trip said that I was soooooo Butch. I said that he was sooooo walking back to Vancouver if he didn't take it back.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as Butch or Femme traits. This week I feel like there isn't.

I have sat here pondering for a while now. I've got nothing in the matching trait department since you nixed childbirth.

But are men and women really the same as each other? If they are not that different?

I don't think so.

[BullDog]

I had a lightbulb moment the other night. It isnt about who did what or said what, it's that the WORLD constructs this thing where there can be no "Female" without "Male". No (supposed) way to define "woman" without defining "man" first and always first. The causation of "Male can exist without Female but not the other way around."
I GET that!

I think this is absolutely the heart of the matter. Woman and female do not stand alone. It is always in comparison to man and male.

People even "compliment" women for "thinking like a man," etc. Um no she's a woman thinking like a human being because she has a human brain.

If you don't fall along socially accepted lines of what a woman is, then you are either man or man-like (i.e man with boobs), not a different sort of woman/female.

[betenoire]

I have sat here pondering for a while now. I've got nothing in the matching trait department since you nixed childbirth.

But are men and women really the same as each other? If they are not that different?

I don't think so.

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

[Medusa]

I think this is absolutely the heart of the matter. Woman and female do not stand alone. It is always in comparison to man and male.

People even "compliment" women for "thinking like a man," etc. Um no she's a woman thinking like a human being because she has a human brain.

If you don't fall along socially accepted lines of what a woman is, then you are either man or man-like (i.e man with boobs), not a different sort of woman/female.



The whole "thinking like a man" thing? OMGEEEE!
I think I talked about this in the "Sexism in Technology" thread but every time I sign up on a forum with a non-gender-specific name like " Me " or "Somebody" and start interacting on topics ranging from Internet Trolls to friggin' GARDENING, I am ALWAYS, ALWAYS referred to as "He".

One of the participants on another forum I frequent actually said they felt quite "suckered" because they felt that I "talked like a man" and was "assertive like a man" and "knew about things that only Men would know about" (Survival skills and guns? Really?)

[SuperFemme]

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

I don't buy the whole venus/mars thing either. I guess I can agree with you that it boils down to socialization.

sorry for quoting myself. I am still trying to tease this apart in my head. If men and women are not different? Then how come when somebody is born into the wrong body it is about so much MORE than fixing the biological differences? That is where I am stuck.

[betenoire]

but every time I sign up on a forum with a non-gender-specific name like " Me " or "Somebody" and start interacting on topics ranging from Internet Trolls to friggin' GARDENING, I am ALWAYS, ALWAYS referred to as "He".


A similar thing happened to me on these forums. I don't know if it's because of the way I phrase things, or because I swear, or what - but someone absolutely referred to me as "he" in that conversation. I let it go, but what I really wanted to do was climb through my monitor and beat her about the head with my underwire.

[Heart]

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

In a key way, I agree with this. Even if men and woman are different in some fundamental ways, the issue is not the difference, as much as it is the way those difference are valued. Society (socialization, culture, etc) decides what is male/man/masculine and then values that above what they decide is female/woman/feminine. That's the issue. And that's one of the reasons that masculine women risk erasure.

I actually think that masculine and feminine are distinct energies (modes of expression, performances, what-have-you) that can be embodied by male or female people.

But "man" and "woman" get rigidly constructed and defined along binary gender lines as man=masculine, woman=feminine. Ergo -- we get descriptions of butch women as "men with boobs."

Heart

[JustJo]

In a key way, I agree with this. Even if men and woman are different in some fundamental ways, the issue is not the difference, as much as it is the way those difference are valued. Society (socialization, culture, etc) decides what is male/man/masculine and then values that above what they decide is female/woman/feminine. That's the issue.

Heart

I think that there are some very fundamental ways in which masculine people differ from feminine people...and will also acknowlege that doesn't always split along biological gender lines.

I'm wondering though about the valuation of maleness as "better than" femaleness in our society now and in the near future. We're at a point in our society where women with higher education and advanced degreees now equal in number (and are soon to pass) men with the same education, and in which men are falling behind in the employment market faster than women. I read an article in the NY Times a few days ago that stated 1 in 5 males age 25-54 is now not working, and many have stopped looking. Even in a full economic recovery, some economists are predicting that figure will stay at 1 in 6.

What do we think will happen over the long term in an economy in which, on the whole, women are more educated and more employed than men?

[Heart]

Just to clarify Jo - when discussing oppression I tend to come from a more global perspective. (See the link in my sig line). Globally, women are by no means surpassing men in terms of education or economic gain. Plus in many communities (other than white, middle class), the fact that a woman works does not necessarily indicate greater freedom or autonomy.

Also -- greater education and economic gain does not necessarily impact deeply rooted social/cultural/religious traditions and definitions. Witness the rise of right-wing women. We can't assume that these gains will automatically reduce oppression or devaluation of women, in fact some studies show an increase in violence against women as they make economic gains.

Of course such gains are ultimately crucial (again see link in sig line) and worth fighting for, but i don't think we are any kind of a tipping point yet.

[JustJo]

Just to clarify Jo - when discussing oppression I tend to come from a more global perspective. (See the link in my sig line). Globally, women are by no means surpassing men in terms of education or economic gain. Plus in many communities (other than white, middle class), the fact that a woman works does not necessarily indicate greater freedom or autonomy.

Also -- greater education and economic gain does not necessarily impact deeply rooted social/cultural/religious traditions and definitions. Witness the rise of right-wing women. We can't assume that these gains will automatically reduce oppression or devaluation of women, in fact some studies show an increase in violence against women as they make economic gains.

Of course such gains are ultimately crucial (again see link in sig line) and worth fighting for, but i don't think we are any kind of a tipping point yet.


Absolutely agree on much of what you've said...education and financial gain doesn't guarantee anything, but it does make a stronger position to work from. And globally....ugh....I did my MS at a university with a strong international community economic development program, and I was fortunate to be able to work with students from all over the world....from inner city organizaitons in the U.S. to students from Ghana and Sierra Leone. Coming from a global perspective we have very, very far to go.

One of my fellow students was from India, and worked with an organization providing capital to women to start small businesses. Even among lower caste women (and that's their reality, not a slam against them), having access to capital and the ability to create an income for themselves frequently (although not always) made a difference in their role and standing within their communities and families.

I come from a place that says we may not be able to change everything overnight, but education, employment, and access to capital is a darn good place to start.

Anyway...feel like I'm derailing now...apologies!

[AtLast]

Just to clarify Jo - when discussing oppression I tend to come from a more global perspective. (See the link in my sig line). Globally, women are by no means surpassing men in terms of education or economic gain. Plus in many communities (other than white, middle class), the fact that a woman works does not necessarily indicate greater freedom or autonomy.

Also -- greater education and economic gain does not necessarily impact deeply rooted social/cultural/religious traditions and definitions. Witness the rise of right-wing women. We can't assume that these gains will automatically reduce oppression or devaluation of women, in fact some studies show an increase in violence against women as they make economic gains.

Of course such gains are ultimately crucial (again see link in sig line) and worth fighting for, but i don't think we are any kind of a tipping point yet.

Thinking that it is a critical time to have a global perspective concerning women's oppression, rights, financial status, etc.

[Dylan]

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

At this point, I would have to disagree with you.

A year or so ago, I probably would have agreed with you (to a point, because there just are biological differences). However, after having lived with both sets of hormones coursing thru my bloodstream I now wholeheartedly disagree with you. There are differences, and it's not all just socialized stuff (which obviously exists too).

*******
Medusa and getting he'd online:

I have a theory I've been working on/watching for years and years. Straight women and queer women tend to speak/act differently when in a public setting. I'm sure gay men and straight men do this too, but I've never bothered to notice, cuz I don't care so much.

Queer women tend to speak more assuredly and with more conviction. I rarely hear queer women using the 'straight girl lilt' when they're talking about something. That's one difference. I'm on my phone, so I don't have time to go into all the other differences I've noticed over the years, but I have more examples.

I think because of homophobia and sexism, if a person isn't acting in traditional 'catering to men' (read straight girl lilt, asking questions instead of just speaking plainly), people (online) are going to assume that means man (because naturally anyone who's not catering to a man, must be a het man, because queers aren't even thought of until someone points it out)


Gotta Get Back To Work,
Dylan

[Martina]

And actually... and lastly... about this female ID v.s. male ID butch war that's supposedly happening. I'll be perfectly frank, I've experienced more indifference, heard more side-swipes as to identity... more direct swipes, saw more "who the hell cares" attitudes and more pronoun defaulting from femmes... by far, then I've ever heard from other butches.


This has been my observation as well.

[betenoire]

At this point, I would have to disagree with you.

A year or so ago, I probably would have agreed with you (to a point, because there just are biological differences). However, after having lived with both sets of hormones coursing thru my bloodstream I now wholeheartedly disagree with you. There are differences, and it's not all just socialized stuff (which obviously exists too).

It's totally none of my business, but I would be interested to hear what differences you're talking about.

However, I still don't think that speaks to men and women being inherently different. I think it speaks to you being a different person on "t" (I presume that's what we're talking about here? we're not besties, so I don't know a whole lot about your life) than you were beforehand. But I'd be willing to bet that some of the things that have changed about you are not necessarily qualities that are inherent in all men. Likewise, I would be willing to bet that there are loads of women who possess these new qualities that you have.

It might be apples and oranges (but I don't think it is - hormones and chemicals hanging out around brain receptors aren't that far off from each other in terms of how they effect our emotional/mental/social make-up) but I'm a different person off of Welbutrin than I am on it. (I am a much better, more stable person OFF it - just for the record. Holy crap that shit did a number on me.)

HEY COOL I found a Canadian Smiley! :canada:

[Martina]

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

i think it's possible. i think a lot of people successfully do this. The problems come when you ASSUME others are or should be like you are.



I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?


It's not just an individual issue. It has social meaning when we default to "he." It defines the norm. Defining the norm as "he" is, for one thing, not statistically accurate. BY FAR, there are more butches who use female pronouns. It also is coercive in the context of right now -- our time, our place. It has cultural meaning.

[Dylan]

It's totally none of my business, but I would be interested to hear what differences you're talking about.

However, I still don't think that speaks to men and women being inherently different. I think it speaks to you being a different person on "t" (I presume that's what we're talking about here? we're not besties, so I don't know a whole lot about your life) than you were beforehand. But I'd be willing to bet that some of the things that have changed about you are not necessarily qualities that are inherent in all men. Likewise, I would be willing to bet that there are loads of women who possess these new qualities that you have.

It might be apples and oranges (but I don't think it is - hormones and chemicals hanging out around brain receptors aren't that far off from each other in terms of how they effect our emotional/mental/social make-up) but I'm a different person off of Welbutrin than I am on it. (I am a much better, more stable person OFF it - just for the record. Holy crap that shit did a number on me.)

HEY COOL I found a Canadian Smiley! :canada:

And I would still disagree with you.

I used my own experience as one example of countless. I no longer share much of my personal business on these boards, but I wasn't talking 'oh, I feel different...like a whole new person' kind of thing.

I don't quite get your welbutrin analogy, because I'm reading as though it proves what I'm saying. There is plenty of science that backs up what I'm saying when it comes to how testoterone and estrogen affect one's brain/emotions/whatnot.


We Can Agree To Disagree If You Want Tho, Cuz I'm Definitely Not About To Share My Personal Business On These Sites Anymore,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

if there was indeed no difference, then why would anyone feel they were in the wrong body? because i don't think that is only related to biology, is it?

[Jaques]

BOOBS FEED BABY HUMAN BEINGS..................they are wonderful on all who enjoy them - just not on me!

[The_Lady_Snow]

BOOBS FEED BABY HUMAN BEINGS..................they are wonderful on all who enjoy them - just not on me!


So I am one of those human beings who had baby humans, my boobs were not used for that purpose, for you see I am not some fucking cow.. I am not defined by the fact I got tits to feed some crumb cruncher.. Now, if anyone else wants to be defined by that, go for it, but not all humans with boobs were made to feed humans..

Do you see how you are defining someone by their breasts?

[AtLast]

So I am one of those human beings who had baby humans, my boobs were not used for that purpose, for you see I am not some fucking cow.. I am not defined by the fact I got tits to feed some crumb cruncher.. Now, if anyone else wants to be defined by that, go for it, but not all humans with boobs were made to feed humans..

Do you see how you are defining someone by their breasts?

Touche! Right on point! Geezusfuckingchrist!

[Jaques]

So I am one of those human beings who had baby humans, my boobs were not used for that purpose, for you see I am not some fucking cow.. I am not defined by the fact I got tits to feed some crumb cruncher.. Now, if anyone else wants to be defined by that, go for it, but not all humans with boobs were made to feed humans..

Do you see how you are defining someone by their breasts?

....Indeed you are not a f..ing cow and i dont define anyone by anything; of course it is a matter of choice whether someone feeds their young, but its an anatomical fact that breasts produce milk, whether in animals or humans for the purpose of feeding their young.

[Gayla]

....Indeed you are not a f..ing cow and i dont define anyone by anything; of course it is a matter of choice whether someone feeds their young, but its an anatomical fact that breasts produce milk, whether in animals or humans for the purpose of feeding their young.

So we're back to it's just all about the anatomy? :|

[The_Lady_Snow]

....Indeed you are not a f..ing cow and i dont define anyone by anything; of course it is a matter of choice whether someone feeds their young, but its an anatomical fact that breasts produce milk, whether in animals or humans for the purpose of feeding their young.

Mine never did... The nurses were pretty fucking ugly to me, because I would not try, I know my body no milk was coming, just discomfort, someone got me a breast pump, so yes you did define by your statement.

So we're back to it's just all about the anatomy? :|

Who the hell knows

[Jaques]

So we're back to it's just all about the anatomy? :|
breasts ARE part of the anatomy - females, whether animal or human have mamories which produce milk for feeding their young - i see nothing wrong with that, in fact its wonderful as babies benefit enormously from their mothers milk................

[Gayla]

breasts ARE part of the anatomy - females, whether animal or human have mamories which produce milk for feeding their young - i see nothing wrong with that, in fact its wonderful as babies benefit enormously from their mothers milk................

No one in this thread is questioning breasts as anatomy. I haven't seen a soul question whether breasts are "good" or "bad". I haven't seen discussion of breastfeeding, milk production or any other issues around the anatomical function of breasts. Which leads me to ask...have you read the thread?

If your answer is "yes" then can you explain your original post in greater detail because I must be missing something in context.

If your answer is "no" then, well, yeah..go boobs. :|

[AtLast]

if there was indeed no difference, then why would anyone feel they were in the wrong body? because i don't think that is only related to biology, is it?

This is an interesting question to me. Both from a biological and social perspective (the old nature-nurture duality). There is no way I can give an answer because I have never felt I was in the wrong body even though I often felt just plain wrong growing up. Just not the right kind of girl, but a girl nonetheless. If I didn't have the parents I did, I don't know if I would have worked through this with a positive self-image. In my family there was room for different kinds of females and my two sisters and me actually covered quite a spectrum.

Although, I believe I have an other or perhaps a conglomorate gender, yet not inter-gendered in many ways, but am female at the core (don't know if this makes sense, or not). What is masculine in me is just female masculinity as I experience it. This isn't so for others.

I hope some TG/IG folks will comment. Or, is this moving outside of the thread intent? Dunno, there are so many issues being brought up.

[The_Lady_Snow]

breasts ARE part of the anatomy - females, whether animal or human have mamories which produce milk for feeding their young - i see nothing wrong with that, in fact its wonderful as babies benefit enormously from their mothers milk................

I AM a mother, who had NO milk,that did not make me less than, nor was I made to be someone's food supply.. I am a mother, woman regardless of my breasts..

[Jaques]

[QUOTE=June;105411]Except when they don't. There are a lot of Breast Cancer survivors out there who are no less women because they have had mastectomies.

....you are right, and what i said has nothing to do with whether a woman is a still a woman without breasts............of course she is - i was in spain a while back on a naturist beach and this elderly couple came along where i was sitting with my partner, they were naked, she had only one breast and they looked very happy together. A woman is who she is, breasts or no!

What i was saying was that its an anatomocal fact that breasts are designed for feeding young. If a person choses not to or cannot do that, it doesnt mean theyre not womanly.

[Andrew, Jr.]

What about breast cancer? It is no longer just a women's cancer.

[Jaques]

What about breast cancer? It is no longer just a women's cancer.


ABSOLETELY......................men can have it too...............in fact, though i have had a double mastectomy, being TG, i had a lump which had to be investigated, turned out to be i'd caused a bruise due to some heavy physical work i'd done, and not noticed it...........luckily!

[SuperFemme]

Can we get back on topic? Seriously?
This is not a thread about breasts and what they can or cannot do.
You are taking away from a great conversation with this ridiculousness.

[Jaques]

Can we get back on topic? Seriously?
This is not a thread about breasts and what they can or cannot do.
You are taking away from a great conversation with this ridiculousness.

....i wouldnt say breast cancer was ridiculous...............anyhow its l.20 am in england and im off to bed...nitey nite!:cowboy:

p.s. love the baby!!!

[Dylan]

I hate to encourage ridiculous behavior, and I promise this is all I'll say on this most ludacrous of sexist derails, but your logic fails jacques in the fact that men have breasts too... a condition known as gynoplasia


Seriously This Is A Useless Derail,
Dylan

[Jaques]

I hate to encourage ridiculous behavior, and I promise this is all I'll say on this most ludacrous of sexist derails, but your logic fails jacques in the fact that men have breasts too... a condition known as gynoplasia


Seriously This Is A Useless Derail,
Dylan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

What about breast cancer? It is no longer just a women's cancer.


ABSOLETELY......................men can have it too...............in fact, though i have had a double mastectomy, being TG, i had a lump which had to be investigated, turned out to be i'd caused a bruise due to some heavy physical work i'd done, and not noticed it...........luckily!

[Dylan]

I like when things make sense


I Think Somebodddddddddy's Tiiiiiiiiiirrrrred,
Dylan

[Gemme]

It would beneficial to me if I knew Jacques was responding to the initial topic or the 'are men and women different, really?' topic.

*knits brow*

I would be more lenient in my response to Jacques if it were the latter.

[MissItalianDiva]

Here is a prime example of what irritates me. We as LGBT and others...label ourselves and put ourselves in boxes of some sort all the time but the moment someone uses a label that they don't deem appropriate a finger is always pointed.

If she wants to call her butch a short man than boobs then so be it. Like others have stated perhaps this is how the butch identifies. So the real question....so lets assume for a moment this is how this particular butch/woman identifies, does that make it wrong? Why, because it isn't in our usual boxes of labels hmmm.

I think sometimes we can get a little carried away with the whole feminist movement issues. I am willing to bet money that when she called her butch a short man with boobs it didn't cause any damage to the progressive movement

[apretty]

how much money?

[MissItalianDiva]

how much money?

LOL.....name your price this could get fun

[SuperFemme]

how much money?

that's not a fair bet.

[Bit]

It is for me, how some folks will refer to their partners as "He and Him" >here< but at home, they are "Her and She", as though it makes THEM less than to be seen in public as a she, so it must be hidden. And you know, that's a personal choice, but for me, it buys into the "He is better than she" and that makes me mad. Like, if you're male, then by all means use the male pronouns all the time, but if you're flipping back and forth depending on the audience, then tell me why, because I do think it's pertinent to this conversation and how we get so riled up about ID's. (bolded for emphasis--Cath)

Because this right here, the online butch/femme community, is the one place in the world where it's safe to say "he" about a person who is living in a female body; more than that, it's immediately understood with little or no explanation. *shrugs*

It is not okay, accepted, understood, or in many cases safe to say "he" in any other community, except for the butch/femme community.

Also, sometimes it's the Butch's choice, not the partner's; so in that case, a person would not be flipping back and forth depending on the audience, but out of respect for the personal preference of the Butch.

Back in the day, when many of us were first talking about Butch as a third (independent) gender, we used to be really careful to always remember to include "BOTH female AND male; and/or neither one" as part of the description of Butch energy. Down the road it became more common in the community to say "female masculinity" as a description of Butch energy and we stopped using the "both female and male" descriptor--but many Butches still think of themselves as "both female and male." For some Butches, that means they really don't care what pronouns anyone uses about them.

For some Butches, it means they DO care, but they bow to the reality of living in a mostly heterosexual world--and that means this, this community right here, is the only place where they can be validated for the male side of their being.

It seems like a really crucial point to me. I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity; for some Butches, this is the place they come to find validation of themselves as whole people, as "both female and male."

As for partners using different pronouns at different times? For many people, it's easy to write one way and speak another--"he" online, "she" verbally--and very difficult to navigate speaking in two different ways about the same person. I never used to have any problems with that, but lately I find that I've been slipping; at first I was accidentally saying "he," but lately the overwhelming pressure the rest of the world puts on me to ONLY speak about Gryph as "she" means that I sometimes find myself saying or writing "she" when I would ordinarily use "he."

Here's the reason I accept that pressure: my allowing myself to be in the habit of saying "he" (in other words, saying "he" at home) could cause serious problems for Gryph--his co-workers, for instance, have sometimes been brutal about his identity--and his old friends, his family, my family, the local community, our neighbors, none of them would get it if I said "he." It would make life immensely more difficult for us both, and would not bring any benefits to either of us; it's better that I just say "she" when I'm speaking (verbally) to other people about Gryph.

Going back and forth between facebook (she) and BFP (he) sometimes trips me up; facebook is one of those places where the communities collide. A significant number of our facebook friends would be baffled by having to deal with Butch gender identification. (Our friends are certainly baffled by having to deal with my Femme gender identification--baffled to the point that I gave up trying to explain it long ago.) In that case, we figure our friends who are from the butch/femme community will get it about why we have to use the female pronouns for someone who has always been known in this community as "he," especially as it seems to be a pretty common occurrence among the Butches we're friended with.

Gryph, being a Two-Spirit, honestly does not care what other people call him, but I think if *I* stopped calling him "Daddy" and "he" it would puzzle and hurt him very much. I am the one person in his day-to-day life who sees him as he actually is, both female and male. We both need me to say "he," whenever and wherever it is safe to do so, and we both know that in order to avoid making mistakes, I have to be pretty consistent about where I say "she" and where I say "he."

Just to be utterly clear, I don't mean "when," I mean "where"--the actual physical places determine what pronouns I use, because my main concern with pronouns is avoiding jeopardizing his safety (both physical and emotional).

Those are the reasons I say "she" at home.

Also to be clear, saying that Gryph doesn't care about pronouns is not the same as saying that he doesn't care what people call him. It makes us both wince and grumble when people refer to us as "ladies," and this morning someone actually had the gall to call him "beautiful" as in, "good morning, beautiful." I have no idea what he would have said to her had she said it to his face, but he was at work and she said it to me, then specified she meant Gryph also.

I didn't say anything about it (although I was flabbergasted; "beautiful"? Has she never paid attention to his pictures, to his wonderful craggy face?) because I don't know what he would want, and that's what's most important in a situation like this: how Gryph wants to respond. The person is someone he cares for, someone he's shepherding through a rough time; he very well might have decided either to speak or to let that go, and I have no right to decide for him. (But it was damned hard to hold my tongue!)

I am finding that most of the people who pay these well-meaning but vastly inappropriate compliments (one of his friends is more and more speaking to him as if he were speaking to a "girly girl," and it's making me crazy) are people he cares for. They are all trying to compliment him by shoehorning him into the box marked Femininity, which once again devalues (erases, even) his masculine identity. Added to the force with which the rest of his world tries to insist that his femaleness cannot possibly contain maleness, it becomes overwhelming and leaves only one refuge for bringing his female-AND-male self back into balance: the online butch/femme community.

And that's the reason I say "he" here.

[betenoire]

if there was indeed no difference, then why would anyone feel they were in the wrong body? because i don't think that is only related to biology, is it?

Well, I wouldn't know since I've never felt that I am in the wrong body (aside from that month in 4th grade where I started putting my hair up in baseball caps and introducing myself to people as Brandon - no idea what that was about for me...aside from the fact that my friends were all boys and I liked to do "boy things" so it probably seemed perfectly sensible to me at the time).

But it seems to be that there's an incongruency between how one looks and how they would like to look, and how one is perceived in / treated by society and how they want to be perceived / treated - neither of those things have anything to do with changing who you are on the inside, rather they're both about changing physically.

I've never had even -one- friend, during or "after" (is there really an after?) transitioning, who has said "oh yippie! now my instincts, emotions, habits, and personality match how I always wanted them to be!" I've only ever heard variations of "Now my outsides match my insides" and "Now people treat me / see me the way that I wish to be treated / seen."

BOOBS FEED BABY HUMAN BEINGS..................they are wonderful on all who enjoy them - just not on me!

Wow. When did this become the "function of breasts" and/or "some people enjoy having them, others do not" thread? My breasts also function as a vehicle/excuse to wear pretty bras. Gooooo boobs? What is going on here?

[SuperFemme]

Well, I wouldn't know since I've never felt that I am in the wrong body (aside from that month in 4th grade where I started putting my hair up in baseball caps and introducing myself to people as Brandon - no idea what that was about for me...aside from the fact that my friends were all boys and I liked to do "boy things" so it probably seemed perfectly sensible to me at the time).

But it seems to be that there's an incongruency between how one looks and how they would like to look, and how one is perceived in / treated by society and how they want to be perceived / treated - neither of those things have anything to do with changing who you are on the inside, rather they're both about changing physically.

I've never had even -one- friend, during or "after" (is there really an after?) transitioning, who has said "oh yippie! now my instincts, emotions, habits, and personality match how I always wanted them to be!" I've only ever heard variations of "Now my outsides match my insides" and "Now people treat me / see me the way that I wish to be treated / seen."


I am really just trying to make sense of it. Cal thinks it is a *chemical* difference in the way hy thinks and processes things. I dunno. But Cal just told me you are always right. So there I have it. (f)

[SuperFemme]

I think we also need to remember to value the woman-ness of female id'd butches and not let the valuing of male in others overshadow that.

[betenoire]

I am really just trying to make sense of it. Cal thinks it is a *chemical* difference in the way hy thinks and processes things. I dunno. But Cal just told me you are always right. So there I have it. (f)

I'm trying to make sense of it, too. :)

I recognise that my assertion that men and women are essentially the same and that there is no such thing as a female character trait v a male character trait is gonna make me pretty unpopular. That's cool, I'll live.

I'm still waiting for someone to be all like "omg, if men and women are the same then why are there gay people and/or then why aren't we all bisexual?"

p/s - Cal is so smart. :chaplin:

[SuperFemme]

I'm trying to make sense of it, too. :)

I recognise that my assertion that men and women are essentially the same and that there is no such thing as a female character trait v a male character trait is gonna make me pretty unpopular. That's cool, I'll live.

I'm still waiting for someone to be all like "omg, if men and women are the same then why are there gay people and/or then why aren't we all bisexual?"

p/s - Cal is so smart. :chaplin:

I really can NOT assign sex to TRAITS. It's making me a little crazy for some reason.

OMG. We're all bisexual....

[betenoire]

I really can NOT assign sex to TRAITS. It's making me a little crazy for some reason.

OMG. We're all bisexual....

I know, right?

Nothing to see here!

[Cyclopea]

Because this right here, the online butch/femme community, is the one place in the world where it's safe to say "he" about a person who is living in a female body; more than that, it's immediately understood with little or no explanation. *shrugs*

It is not okay, accepted, understood, or in many cases safe to say "he" in any other community, except for the butch/femme community.

Also, sometimes it's the Butch's choice, not the partner's; so in that case, a person would not be flipping back and forth depending on the audience, but out of respect for the personal preference of the Butch.

Back in the day, when many of us were first talking about Butch as a third (independent) gender, we used to be really careful to always remember to include "BOTH female AND male; and/or neither one" as part of the description of Butch energy. Down the road it became more common in the community to say "female masculinity" as a description of Butch energy and we stopped using the "both female and male" descriptor--but many Butches still think of themselves as "both female and male." For some Butches, that means they really don't care what pronouns anyone uses about them.

For some Butches, it means they DO care, but they bow to the reality of living in a mostly heterosexual world--and that means this, this community right here, is the only place where they can be validated for the male side of their being.

It seems like a really crucial point to me. I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity; for some Butches, this is the place they come to find validation of themselves as whole people, as "both female and male."

As for partners using different pronouns at different times? For many people, it's easy to write one way and speak another--"he" online, "she" verbally--and very difficult to navigate speaking in two different ways about the same person. I never used to have any problems with that, but lately I find that I've been slipping; at first I was accidentally saying "he," but lately the overwhelming pressure the rest of the world puts on me to ONLY speak about Gryph as "she" means that I sometimes find myself saying or writing "she" when I would ordinarily use "he."

Here's the reason I accept that pressure: my allowing myself to be in the habit of saying "he" (in other words, saying "he" at home) could cause serious problems for Gryph--his co-workers, for instance, have sometimes been brutal about his identity--and his old friends, his family, my family, the local community, our neighbors, none of them would get it if I said "he." It would make life immensely more difficult for us both, and would not bring any benefits to either of us; it's better that I just say "she" when I'm speaking (verbally) to other people about Gryph.

Going back and forth between facebook (she) and BFP (he) sometimes trips me up; facebook is one of those places where the communities collide. A significant number of our facebook friends would be baffled by having to deal with Butch gender identification. (Our friends are certainly baffled by having to deal with my Femme gender identification--baffled to the point that I gave up trying to explain it long ago.) In that case, we figure our friends who are from the butch/femme community will get it about why we have to use the female pronouns for someone who has always been known in this community as "he," especially as it seems to be a pretty common occurrence among the Butches we're friended with.

Gryph, being a Two-Spirit, honestly does not care what other people call him, but I think if *I* stopped calling him "Daddy" and "he" it would puzzle and hurt him very much. I am the one person in his day-to-day life who sees him as he actually is, both female and male. We both need me to say "he," whenever and wherever it is safe to do so, and we both know that in order to avoid making mistakes, I have to be pretty consistent about where I say "she" and where I say "he."

Just to be utterly clear, I don't mean "when," I mean "where"--the actual physical places determine what pronouns I use, because my main concern with pronouns is avoiding jeopardizing his safety (both physical and emotional).

Those are the reasons I say "she" at home.

Also to be clear, saying that Gryph doesn't care about pronouns is not the same as saying that he doesn't care what people call him. It makes us both wince and grumble when people refer to us as "ladies," and this morning someone actually had the gall to call him "beautiful" as in, "good morning, beautiful." I have no idea what he would have said to her had she said it to his face, but he was at work and she said it to me, then specified she meant Gryph also.

I didn't say anything about it (although I was flabbergasted; "beautiful"? Has she never paid attention to his pictures, to his wonderful craggy face?) because I don't know what he would want, and that's what's most important in a situation like this: how Gryph wants to respond. The person is someone he cares for, someone he's shepherding through a rough time; he very well might have decided either to speak or to let that go, and I have no right to decide for him. (But it was damned hard to hold my tongue!)

I am finding that most of the people who pay these well-meaning but vastly inappropriate compliments (one of his friends is more and more speaking to him as if he were speaking to a "girly girl," and it's making me crazy) are people he cares for. They are all trying to compliment him by shoehorning him into the box marked Femininity, which once again devalues (erases, even) his masculine identity. Added to the force with which the rest of his world tries to insist that his femaleness cannot possibly contain maleness, it becomes overwhelming and leaves only one refuge for bringing his female-AND-male self back into balance: the online butch/femme community.

And that's the reason I say "he" here.

Thank you for your post Bit, and I appreciate your experiences shared and your points about how some male identified butches need to change pronoun usage in different contexts to negotiate comfortably and safely in a hostile world.
Just a quick note about something you said which I've enlarged in your quote above. You mentioned " ..for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity"...
and I wanted to mention that for me as a woman, my butchness is part and parcel of my womanness.

It is not separate from that of which it is part, nor is it in opposition to itself. (I realize that you may have been speaking here not of butch women but of transgender or two-spirit butches ? but thought I'd use the opportunity to express something about my experience as a woman.)

What IS in opposition to my butch womanness is a social construct that denies the naturalness and authenticity of my very existence as a woman. And yet here I am. Here we all are. Perfectly natural women. I look forward to the day when all women are accepted as they are and that butch women are not neutered by the language used to describe us.

(Bit I know I veered wildly from your post and hope you don't mind me using it as a jumping off point to share my reflections).
:)

[DapperButch]

Personally, I ask folks how they id if they are of the butch persuasion. Yes, I will default to he because I'm lazy--not because I devalue women. However, I also ask people which pronoun they prefer because that's important to me--to use the language they want used.

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she.



Here's what I don't get.... we have a pronoun spot now. People wanted it. People got it. But, most butches do not use it. Why?

I think there could be lots of reasons:

1) They are unsure which pronoun matches them the best.

2) They feel that "she" should be the default and so it is insulting to even have the pronoun space there (Toughy's always makes me smile!)

3) People worry that others will judge them/make assumptions about them, based on their pronoun choice.

4) Other reasons

The reality is that some butches prefer he, some she, some hy, some shi, and some zie. I don't think that we have any other choice than to work within that reality.

I say, write it in the space, or take what you get. It is not fair to get upset if someone calls you by the wrong pronoun when we all have a very easy and visible way to let everyone know what they prefer. I feel that it is almost unfair to expect others to have to work within a guessing game. If it is important to you, write it in.

Be proud of your pronoun!

Disclaimer: I went against my usual rule of never posting prior to reading a whole thread first, so I hope this still fits in with the current "groove" of the thread! I haven't read past the above quoted post. This has been in my head for a long time, and seeing Arwen's post triggered these thoughts.

[Bit]

(Bit I know I veered wildly from your post and hope you don't mind me using it as a jumping off point to share my reflections).
:)

Not at all; thank you for mentioning that. Sometimes it's hard to know whether someone is building on previous thoughts or disagreeing, so I always appreciate when someone tells me which it is!

You said: "and I wanted to mention that for me as a woman, my butchness is part and parcel of my womanness.

"It is not separate from that of which it is part, nor is it in opposition to itself."

Gryph has never mentioned anything like this to me, so I don't know if he would share this viewpoint with you or not; he very well might. And yes, he does identify as a Two Spirit, although I have known others who said they were "both female and male" who simply identified as Butches.

[Martina]

This sounds fine, but that's not the way it works. Often the DEFAULT is male pronouns. Some people's default is "she," but on the previous site anyway, that was much less common. So that's the situation. It's not sometimes -- randomly someone gets called by the wrong pronoun.

Here's what I don't get.... we have a pronoun spot now. People wanted it. People got it. But, most butches do not use it. Why?

I think there could be lots of reasons:

1) They are unsure which pronoun matches them the best.

2) They feel that "she" should be the default and so it is insulting to even have the pronoun space there (Toughy's always makes me smile!)

3) People worry that others will judge them/make assumptions about them, based on their pronoun choice.

4) Other reasons

The reality is that some butches prefer he, some she, some hy, some shi, and some zie. I don't think that we have any other choice than to work within that reality.

I say, write it in the space, or take what you get. It is not fair to get upset if someone calls you by the wrong pronoun when we all have a very easy and visible way to let everyone know what they prefer. I feel that it is almost unfair to expect others to have to work within a guessing game. If it is important to you, write it in.

Be proud of your pronoun!

Disclaimer: I went against my usual rule of never posting prior to reading a whole thread first, so I hope this still fits in with the current "groove" of the thread! I haven't read past the above quoted post. This has been in my head for a long time, and seeing Arwen's post triggered these thoughts.

[Bit]

Bit -- No, I get it about work and other places, family, friends who don't get it. I was speaking specifically to people referring to their partners >here< as He, then at >home< they are she.

And I know of a few couples who do this, and my conclusion, and I was not clear about this in my initial post - My conclusion is that somehow referring to our female ID'd partners as "he" here elevates them for the general populice >here< as if referring to them as "She" here, lessens their Butch-ness, hence, their value because of the female pronouns.

I had to read this twice and then walk away and think about it before I had even a glimmer what you're talking about.

Are you saying there are happily female-ID'd Butches who go by male pronouns only online (or whose partners refer to them by male pronouns only online)--and that these Butches are not in any way male identified?

I've not come across anything like this, so I'm mystified.

Did I totally miss your meaning?

[AtLast]

I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity

For me, its the opposite... and especially so in the B-F community and on B-F sites. And I don't want either to be invalidated. Yes, this is true for some butches, not all. And the thread is dealing with female/woman aspects based on the short man with boobs statement.

We all just don't fit neatly into a box or have the same life's experiences. Which is rather kewl. And when I say all, I mean every butch identification that a member might have on this site.

I'm not meaning to be snide, but, it seems that every time butch gets discussed, it ends up male in some form even when the OP posed a conversation about the female/woman aspects of butch!

Hummmm, the point, right?

[betenoire]

I had to read this twice and then walk away and think about it before I had even a glimmer what you're talking about.

Are you saying there are happily female-ID'd Butches who go by male pronouns only online (or whose partners refer to them by male pronouns only online)--and that these Butches are not in any way male identified?

I've not come across anything like this, so I'm mystified.

Did I totally miss your meaning?

No, I don't believe June is happy about it.

I think what June is saying is that it is grody bullshit that we have created an environment where Female-ID'd Butches are perceived as "less Butch" than Male-ID'd Butches, and that this grody bullshit environment causes some Butches to succumb to the male pronoun even though they aren't necessarily feeling it, in order to avoid bullshit/drama/ridicule/etc.

EDIT - duh. you weren't saying that June was happy about it.

yes, I do believe you heard/read June correctly. yes, I am QUITE positive that happens.

[AtLast]

Here's what I don't get.... we have a pronoun spot now. People wanted it. People got it. But, most butches do not use it. Why?

I think there could be lots of reasons:

1) They are unsure which pronoun matches them the best.

2) They feel that "she" should be the default and so it is insulting to even have the pronoun space there (Toughy's always makes me smile!)

3) People worry that others will judge them/make assumptions about them, based on their pronoun choice.

4) Other reasons

The reality is that some butches prefer he, some she, some hy, some shi, and some zie. I don't think that we have any other choice than to work within that reality.

I say, write it in the space, or take what you get. It is not fair to get upset if someone calls you by the wrong pronoun when we all have a very easy and visible way to let everyone know what they prefer. I feel that it is almost unfair to expect others to have to work within a guessing game. If it is important to you, write it in.

Be proud of your pronoun!

Disclaimer: I went against my usual rule of never posting prior to reading a whole thread first, so I hope this still fits in with the current "groove" of the thread! I haven't read past the above quoted post. This has been in my head for a long time, and seeing Arwen's post triggered these thoughts.

I totally appreciate what you are saying here. However, it isn't working. I was jazzed to see the pronoun spot because I thought it would really help out with this whole matter.

I inserted she, her right off when joining. There have been more than a few times that I have been addressed as he or him just as it was on the dash site. And every single time this has happened it has been by a femme. I don't get it! We have the place to clearly state what we want, yet, this keeps happening. And I keep seeing statements about most butches identifying as female. What is this based upon? Are there some site stats around that I don't know about? I have no idea what the breakdown is. I honestly don't believe this to be true, but could certainly be wrong. And there are butches that (as you state) don't list pronouns or don't care which are used. My guess is that in those cases, pronouns default to male. Again, I have no data to support this and probably should not make this assumption- could just be a personal sensitivity.

Something I have thought about is that perhaps we butches might just have more of a sensitivity about this. Again, I have no idea. I do know that it is important to me to use the pronoun(s) that another butch prefers.

Now, to be fair, I would think that the same thing has happened for male-identified butches. I have no idea. I want to believe this is so.

[BullDog]

Thank you for your post Bit, and I appreciate your experiences shared and your points about how some male identified butches need to change pronoun usage in different contexts to negotiate comfortably and safely in a hostile world.
Just a quick note about something you said which I've enlarged in your quote above. You mentioned " ..for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity"...
and I wanted to mention that for me as a woman, my butchness is part and parcel of my womanness.

It is not separate from that of which it is part, nor is it in opposition to itself. (I realize that you may have been speaking here not of butch women but of transgender or two-spirit butches ? but thought I'd use the opportunity to express something about my experience as a woman.)

What IS in opposition to my butch womanness is a social construct that denies the naturalness and authenticity of my very existence as a woman. And yet here I am. Here we all are. Perfectly natural women. I look forward to the day when all women are accepted as they are and that butch women are not neutered by the language used to describe us.

(Bit I know I veered wildly from your post and hope you don't mind me using it as a jumping off point to share my reflections).
:)

The parts of Cyclopea's post in bold are the crux of the matter for many butch women. We are butch and women- all at the same time- the two go hand in hand. Butch does not modify woman, woman does not make us butch-lite. We are both. When we are compared to men it does feel like we are being neutered.

There is the problem of valuing male over female- the male defaults. There is also the huge gap in understanding or conceiving what woman is and can be. Butch woman is one of the myriad possibilities that broadens and stretches and trangresses what woman can be. I personally believe Femme does as well.

Butch Woman- We live it. It's not something we "identify with." She is not just a pronoun choice.

[BullDog]

AtLast, I've seen you referred to as He a number of times on this site and it has completely baffled me every time. You are very clear that you are a She.

[AtLast]

AtLast, I've seen you referred to as He a number of times on this site and it has completely baffled me every time. You are very clear that you are a She.

Thanks, Bully. I don't get it. I guess it might be because I don't go ballistic and call the person on it in the thread, but I do send a PM asking to be called female pronouns.I also correct people in public if called sir. I want masculine women to be recognized as what we are. Dunno....

[apretty]

grody bullshit is a perfect term--i like this whole post. and i like that we're talking about it. :)

No, I don't believe June is happy about it.

I think what June is saying is that it is grody bullshit that we have created an environment where Female-ID'd Butches are perceived as "less Butch" than Male-ID'd Butches, and that this grody bullshit environment causes some Butches to succumb to the male pronoun even though they aren't necessarily feeling it, in order to avoid bullshit/drama/ridicule/etc.

EDIT - duh. you weren't saying that June was happy about it.

yes, I do believe you heard/read June correctly. yes, I am QUITE positive that happens.

yes! and i was also making the same reference, though not as concisely, here:

1. with regards to pronouns: i ask, prior and i default 'she' for butches because i know more 'she' than 'he/hy' butches and while 'he' seems a the go-to pronoun 'online' --i like continuity (and newsflash: she does not equal less-than).

[Beau]

I've posted about the topic of the devaluation of female and/or woman-ID butch online ad nauseum. Most recently in a thread on the "butch female in a patriarchal world" thread. http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63685&postcount=26 That was some of my reasoning, and I believe it to be valid approximately 2 months later.

So here we are again, another thread with much of the same topic discussed due to the unfortunate language of a reluctant gay icon and her limited, poor choice of vocabulary to describe her sexuality. After reading apretty's post of more of Cynthia Nixon's interview, I realized her tremendous discomfort with the public's perception of her as queer. She seems homophobic in those comments, seeking to relate to a straight world who already (falsely) believe most butch lesbians are wannabe men. Do I condemn her? No. Do I support her? No. Does it matter to me? Yes.

26 years ago I was beaten up. I shared the story on another website, but the crux of it was that these two men who punched me and threw me to the ground, who were kicking me in the kidneys and in the ribs, and who made me piss blood for a week were screaming at me, "You want to be a man?!" "You think you're a man?!!" "You fucking dyke!!" etc. etc.

I'm sort of hoping all can see the connection, but at the risk of it not being logically associated, let me make it crystal clear. I never wanted to be a man. I was just a dyke who made a poor choice myself by being in a situation that led to that beating. However, that's the only way those Neanderthals could view me -- as a "man with boobs". That's the way a good deal of society still views me, and other women like me, even today. And Cynthia Nixon's offhand remark merely gives fodder to those narrow-minded binary buffoons who'd put boxes and bars around behaviors and traits to keep the world simple and understandable for themselves.

I'm not playing. I'm not here to cater to the morons. I want the world to see me as a woman, a very masculine woman perhaps, but all woman nonetheless. So, when the medical tests I've had run this past month revealed what actually happened to my body from that beating, I found this thread and Heart's concern on a societal level relevant and valuable not just for me and my life, but for all the butch women who still risk getting beaten up just for being who they are in a world that can't see beyond rigid gender identities.

[AtLast]

The parts of Cyclopea's post in bold are the crux of the matter for many butch women. We are butch and women- all at the same time- the two go hand in hand. Butch does not modify woman, woman does not make us butch-lite. We are both. When we are compared to men it does feel like we are being neutered.

There is the problem of valuing male over female- the male defaults. There is also the huge gap in understanding or conceiving what woman is and can be. Butch woman is one of the myriad possibilities that broadens and stretches and trangresses what woman can be. I personally believe Femme does as well.

Butch Woman- We live it. It's not something we "identify with." She is not just a pronoun choice.

No, it is not about pronouns at all and runs far deeper than an identifier. It transcends far more than I ever knew it could. This says it all, Bully. Thanks for helping me find yet another voice to sing with.